Mormons and guns


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IdahoFarmer
March 7, 2003, 03:10 PM
I recently told my sister that she and her husband should get a firearm. She said her husband was against it. As they are both Mormon, I did some research on the Mormon's view on firearms ownership. I put this together and sent it to my sister:

And Brigham Young said in his Journal of Discourses,Vol. 1, pg. 171-172,
July 31, 1853:

"As for this people fostering to themselves that the day has come for them
to sell their guns and ammunition to their enemies, and sit down to sleep in
peace, they will find themselves deceived, and before they know, they will
sleep until they are slain. They have got to carry weapons with them, to be
ready to send their enemies to hell in cross lots, whether they be
Lamanites, or mobs who may come to take their lives, or destroy their
property. We must be so prepared that they dare not come to us in a hostile
manner without being assured they will meet a vigorous resistance, and ten
to one they will meet their grave."


Responsible gun ownership is just that, a responsibility. All the reasons
not to own a gun are wiped out by responsbile gun ownership. Then, all that
remains are the reasons TO own a firearm... of which there is one at the
core: "Be Prepared". It is the Boy Scout motto for a reason.

If you enjoyed reading about "Mormons and guns" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
spacemanspiff
March 7, 2003, 03:14 PM
THC had "Guns that Tamed the West" on the other night, and they quoted Brigham Young as insisting that all men and boys over the age of 12 (iirc) were to have a firearm on their person or within reach during their trek to the west.
it was also noted that the mormons favored having a concealable handgun as they had one hand tied up holding the bible.

tetchaje1
March 7, 2003, 03:27 PM
I'm a Mormon and I own lots of guns. :)

I don't see how your sister could have said that considering that Utah has the largest single concentration of Mormons in the world, yet we also have some of the least restrictive gun laws and CC laws in the nation.

It is beside the point that Utah also has the highest percentage, per capita, of reservists and Nat'l Guardsmen on Active duty in Kuwait, Afghanistan, etc... Utah is the only state in the nation where Bill Clinton finished last in the election of 1996. We also have one of the larger Air Force bases (Hill AFB) and the nation's largest chem. weapons facility (Tooele). Not to mention that one of our senators (Hatch) and our Atty. General (Shurtleff) are Mormons and have carry permits.

As for supposed historical pacifism among Mormons, don't forget the Nauvoo Legion and the Mormon Battalion during the early days of the church, and the fact that Joseph Smith defended his comrades in the Carthage Jail from a murderous mob with a pepperbox until it misfired (after which he was murdered by the mob).

Mormons have a proud heritage of fiercly supporting the Constitution of the United States.

One last quote from the Book of Mormon (we believe that it is a 2nd set of scripture that testifies of Jesus Christ like the Bible, but from the American continent...) should seal the deal that their opinion as Mormons is a definite minority to the rest of us.

And they were doing that which they felt was the duty which they owed to their God; for the Lord had said unto them, and also unto their fathers, that: Inasmuch as ye are not guilty of the first offense, neither the second, ye shall not suffer yourselves to be slain by the hands of your enemies.

And again, the Lord has said that: Ye shall defend your families even unto bloodshed. Therefore for this cause were the Nephites contending with the Lamanites, to defend themselves, and their families, and their lands, their country, and their rights, and their religion.


Alma 43:46-47 (emphasis added)

Russ
March 7, 2003, 03:29 PM
John Browning and his very famous son, John Moses Browning, were both Mormons and gun makers. In Nauvoo Illinois, they have restored John Browning's (the dad) gun shop. His son, John Moses learned from his father and is responsible for many fine gun designs. The 1911, BHP and BAR come to mind.

In fact, Joseph Smith had a pepperbox with him and fired it at some in the mob that eventually killed him. Mormons are certainly not anti gun. Your brother in law may be but he can't blame that on the Church.

You mention Brigham Young. One of his body guards was Orrin Porter Rockwell. He was known to carry as many as 24 guns on his person.

Self defence is a responsibility.

tetchaje1
March 7, 2003, 03:33 PM
Russ,
Some of the stories surrounding Orrin Porter Rockwell are pretty wild... :eek:

24 guns on your person at once...better invest in a good gun belt... :uhoh:

:cool:

Nice comments about JMB too.

Blackhawk
March 7, 2003, 03:36 PM
Interesting stuff about Mormons.

4v50 Gary
March 7, 2003, 03:44 PM
During the Mexican American war Johnathan Browning was among the men who wanted to answer to the country's call for a Morman Battalion. He was told that as a gunsmith, he was too valuable to march off to battle. His duty was at home making guns.

PDshooter
March 7, 2003, 03:46 PM
"Utah" That's a great state!
When I retire:D that's where I'm going!!!

The Hell with Illinois!:cuss:

Correia
March 7, 2003, 03:53 PM
Another well armed Mormon here. :)

444
March 7, 2003, 03:55 PM
I have seen guns and ammo recommended in various publications put out by the church about the years supply.

I have also asked point blank at the church what the church's position was on guns and they stated point blank that the church was in favor of private firearm ownership.

Russ
March 7, 2003, 04:00 PM
tetchaje1,

I've heard that one about Porter Rockwell and him being caught with 24+ guns a number of times. Probably a myth. When you think of it, it does seen kind of wild. He'd have had to have more than a couple of gun belts to carry that much weight even if they were all derringers!

If you get to Nauvoo, check out Browning's gun shop. Back before the days of decent machinery, it was back breaking work to make a gun. It's hard to believe any one could afford one as much hand work went into one. Rifleing the barrel was done by pulling a tool through the barrel by hand a little bit at a time. Must have taken forever.

Russ

aerod1
March 7, 2003, 04:05 PM
I am not a Morman. I am an Episcopalian. I do however applaud the Morman Church when it comes to their stance on gun ownership. I wish the Episcopal Church would be so realistic. My church is a very conservative Episcopal Church, unlike most in our denomination. There isn't much the national church does that we agree with. The Episcopal Church is loosing members because of the liberal views most parishes promote.
Jim Hall

tetchaje1
March 7, 2003, 04:07 PM
Russ,
It has been a long time since I was at Nauvoo last. my wife and I were considering making a trip there pretty soon. The Browning gunshop is definitely on my list. :)

It actually isn't too inconceivable to carry 24 guns. Let's see...a quadruple shoulder rig setup with 6 more on the belt around the waist makes 10. 2 up the sleeves and 4 in ankle holsters (can you imagine the leg work-out to walk around... :eek: ), plus a couple of guns slung over the back... Hmmm... I can only get to 18. Oh Yeah!!! He probably had the other 6 on his horse... ;)

The literature about church members being encouraged to have several guns and a stored supply of ammunition along with a years supply of food and water is true. I believe it was Ezra Taft Benson who made this statement in the mid-80's. I am not sure of the exact reference to it, though, as I was pretty young in the 80's. Other THR members here could probably give the reference much better than I could.

My wife and I have a couple of months worth of food, and a couple of weeks worth of water stored up, but we are space-limited because we live in an apartment as college students. We'll get up to the year mark in supplies when we get a house, though. We've been kind of poor lately, so my ammunition storage has been getting burned up, along with several of my guns needing to be sold. I still have enough to supply a small army, though... ;)

4v50 Gary
March 7, 2003, 04:10 PM
How does one:

(a) Walk?
(b) Climb into or exit a car?
(c) Go potty?

tetchaje1
March 7, 2003, 04:14 PM
When carrying 24 guns?
How does one:

(a) Walk?
(b) Climb into or exit a car?
(c) Go potty?


:D

Gives new meaning to "An army of One" doesn't it... ;)

Aerod1,
Good luck to you with your fellow brothers and sisters in the Episcopalian church. I breaks my heart when religious faiths begin to waiver in stances that were once never an issue. I hope that common sense prevails and the general sentiment doesn't turn completely against private firearms ownership in your church.

You have my support and prayers. :)

MountainPeak
March 7, 2003, 04:45 PM
My former boss was a mormon and he had a large gun collection.

moa
March 7, 2003, 04:47 PM
Not only are the Mormoms gun owners, but they where gun users. Back in the 1800s they and their Indian allies ambushed and massacred about 120 white settlers. I think the Indians were Paiutes.

Cannot remember what the Mormons reasons were. I think they were just trying to keep non-Mormons out.

Cannot remember what the legal outcome was.

Jim March
March 7, 2003, 05:00 PM
Before they were chased out of the Illinois area, a number of different laws specifically banned Mormons from gun carry.

This was the first time in the US that a technologically advanced group suffered under a specific gun ban.

Their response?

They invented the big-bore snubby revolver :D by chopping 1851 model Colts and similar percussion revolvers down to a 2" or 3" barrel and ditching the rammer hardware.

They then became quite good at making concealment holsters :).

(The guns were known as "Avenging Angels", which was also the term for the Mormon security force.)

CZ-75
March 7, 2003, 05:01 PM
Mountain Meadow Massacre, I believe it was called.

Baba Louie
March 7, 2003, 05:09 PM
http://historytogo.utah.gov/hmearlypio.html

Some good, some not so good.

I'm not sure if the joke at the end is funny.

Being born and raised in Independence MO, I kinda fit the mold, just a little Reorganized thats all.

Adios

Chipperman
March 7, 2003, 05:29 PM
Any response from your sister yet?

cratz2
March 7, 2003, 05:31 PM
One of my best friends here in Indiana is a Mormon and he and his family are well-armed.

My mother had an Hispanic friend when we lived in Texas and I think they all carried.

Powderman
March 7, 2003, 05:34 PM
If you get to Nauvoo, check out Browning's gun shop. Back before the days of decent machinery, it was back breaking work to make a gun. It's hard to believe any one could afford one as much hand work went into one. Rifleing the barrel was done by pulling a tool through the barrel by hand a little bit at a time. Must have taken forever.

Just so. But, have you checked out Kreiger and/or Obermeyer barrels? Recognized as some of the most accurate and dimensionally correct rifle barrels in the world, they make their rifle barrels using the cut-rifling process--one groove at a time.

Ya know, Utah is sounding better and better all the time. Me and the wife are seriously thinking about moving to Wyoming.

But, Utah's intriguing..................

444
March 7, 2003, 06:00 PM
Utah very well be the most beautiful place I have ever been.

waterdog
March 7, 2003, 06:13 PM
It was the Mountain Meadow Massacre ( this better?)

I applaud any American or group of Americann who choose to arm themselves.

But there are two sides to any story, I grew up with mormons, live among mormons and have worked for mormons.

I have my opinions based on personal experiences, and suggest that we not get into a thread about mormons, because it will
eventually get shut down.

waterdog

another48hrs
March 7, 2003, 06:14 PM
I live in Las Vegas and we have a large Mormon population. Alot of my friends are Mormons and they all own firearms. One friend had a really nice glass cabinet full of the family's hunting rifles. Mormons are great folk and outstandingly genuine people.

tetchaje1
March 7, 2003, 06:29 PM
Thanks for the nice comments another48hrs and others. :)


Moa stated:
Not only are the Mormoms gun owners, but they where gun users. Back in the 1800s they and their Indian allies ambushed and massacred about 120 white settlers. I think the Indians were Paiutes.

Cannot remember what the Mormons reasons were. I think they were just trying to keep non-Mormons out.

Cannot remember what the legal outcome was.

As far as the Mountain Meadow Massacre is concerned, I would be happy to go into more detail for anybody who wanted to e-mail me about it. Basically, it was a group of bitter Mormons in Southern Utah in the late 1800's who were acting against church leadership. President Brigham Young specifically instructed the Mormons in southern Utah to let the people pass through in peace without any interference from the Mormons in the area. The people did not wait for Brigham Young's response to arrive, and they murdered everybody in a company of settlers headed towards California from Arkansas. It was a very unfortunate event, and all of the people who were involved were dealt with by the law.

I don't want to get into a theological debate with anybody here, and I am sure that the Moderators will agree with me. I believe that everybody has the right to worship who, how, and when they want to according to the dictates of their own conscience.

I do feel, though, that it is unfair to paint a group of murderous people acting under their own vindictiveness with the vast majority of us Mormons who just try to be the nice neighbors down the street.

Best. :)

CZ-75
March 7, 2003, 06:30 PM
It was the Meadow Creek Massacre.

Certain?





This is the Inscription of the Mountain Meadows Memorial in Utah. This
memorial marks the burial site for some of those killed in the Mountain
Meadows Massacre in September 1857:

The Baker-Fancher Party camped at Mountain Meadows, a well-known stopping
place along the Old Spanish Trail.

IN MEMORIAM

In the valley below, between September 7 and 11, 1857, a company of more
than 120 Arkansas emigrants led by Capt. John T. Baker and Capt. Alexander
Fancher was attacked while en route to California. This event is known as
the Mountain Meadows Massacre.

Those believed to have been killed at or near Mountain Meadows were:

William Allen Aden, 19
George W. Baker, 27
Manerva A. Beller Baker, 25
Mary Lovina, 7
Wards of George and Manerva Baker
Melissa Ann Beller, 14
David W. Beller, 12
John T. Baker, 52
Abel, 19
John Beach, 21
William Cameron, 51
Martha Cameron, 51
Tillman, 24
Isom, 18
Henry, 16
James, 14
Martha, 11
Larkin, 8
William Cameron's niece, Nancy, 12
Allen P. Deshazo, 20
Jesse Dunlap, Jr. 39
Mary Wharton Dunlap, 39
Ellender, 18
Nancy M., 16
James D., 14
Lucinda, 12
Susannah, 12
Margerette, 11,
Mary Ann, 9
Lorenzo Dow Dunlap, 42
Nancy Wharton Dunlap, 42
Thomas J., 17
John H. 16
Mary Ann, 13
Talitha Emaline, 11
Nancy, 9
America Jane, 7
William M. Eaton
Silas Edwards
Alexander Fancher, 45
Eliza Ingrum Fancher, 32
Hampton, 19
William, 17
Mary 15,
Thomas, 14
Martha, 10
Sarah G., 8
Margaret A., 7
James Mathew Fancher, 25
Frances "Fanny" Fulfer Fancher
Robert Fancher, 19
Saladia Ann Brown Huff
William
Elisha
Two other sons.
John Milum Jones, 32
Eloah Angeline Tackitt Jones, 27
Daughter
Newton Jones,
Lawson A. McEntire, 21
Josiah (Joseph) Miller, 30
Matilda Cameron Miller, 26
James William, 9
Charles R. Mitchell, 23
John Prewit, 20
William Prewit, 18
Milum L. Rush, 28
Charles Stallcup, 25
Cynthia Tackitt, 49
Marion, 20
Sebron, 18
Matilda, 16
James M., 14
Jones M., 12
Pleasant Tackitt, 25
Amilda Miller Tackitt, 22
Richard Wilson
Solomon R. Wood, 26

Others Unknown

Other names associated with the caravan included:

Basham
Farmer
Hamilton
Haydon
Hudson
Laffoon Family
Morton Family
Poteet family
Poteet brothers
Reed
Smith Stevenson

The following children survived and were returned to their families in
northwest Arkansas in September 1859:

Children of George and Manerva Baker
Mary Elizabeth, 5
Sarah Frances, 3
William Twitty, 9 months
Daughters of Jesse and Mary Dunlap
Rebecca J.,6
Louisa, 4
Sarah E., 1
Daughters of Lorenzo Dow and Nancy Dunlap
Prudence Angeline, 5
Georgia Ann, 18 months
Children of Alexander and Eliza Fancher
Christopher "Kit" Carson, 5
Triphenia D., 22 months
Daughter of Peter and Saladia Huff
Nancy Saphrona, 4
Son of John Milum and Eloah Jones
Felix Marion, 18 months
Children of Jos. and Matilda Miller
John Calvin, 6
Mary, 4
Joseph, 1
Sons of Pleasant and Armilda Tackitt
Emberson Milum, 4
William Henry, 19 months

CZ-75
March 7, 2003, 06:35 PM
I do feel, though, that it is unfair to paint a group of murderous people acting under their own vindictiveness with the vast majority of us Mormons who just try to be the nice neighbors down the street.


Don't worry, you're getting equal time with the Muslims over in Legal & Political.

Perhaps a few Muslims will remind us of the barbarity of the Crusades and blame all Christians, though. Wait, though, it's been done - by some guy named Osama.

tetchaje1
March 7, 2003, 06:38 PM
Good point, CZ-75. :)

The vast majority of people in the world, whether they be Muslim, Mormon, Catholic, Hindu, or whatever have the same goals in life -- to see their kids grow up healthy and to have better circumstances in life than they had.

Best. :)

illuminatus99
March 7, 2003, 07:20 PM
one of my best friend is mormon, he's also my gunsmith, can't wait to shoot the .416 rigby he just got done building :)

meathammer
March 7, 2003, 11:00 PM
One of my best friends, and room mate is a Mormon. Let's just say one half of my gun safe is mine, the other half is his. :)

Preacherman
March 7, 2003, 11:26 PM
There's an interesting Mormon firearms forum here (http://pub36.ezboard.com/bzionscamp), which is well worth visiting. (Hint - read some of Porter Glockwell's stuff! :D) Some of the old TFL regulars used to post there, and I'm sure some of them are still with us on THR.

Tamara
March 7, 2003, 11:35 PM
C'mon, folks, I think we know better than to get into lengthy religious discussions on THR.

Correia
March 7, 2003, 11:54 PM
I think that this thread is fine as long as it sticks to Mormons and guns. The second that it turns into a theological debate or "My God is better than your God" this thread will be drug behind the barn and given the "Old Yeller" treatment. :)

Porter Glockwell is a personal friend of mine, his board (that Preacherman provides a link to) is his board. Lots of good folks there.

We are an interesting bunch. For the most parts Mormons as a group tend to be very conservative. I would hazard a guess that 60% are pro-gun, 20% are fence sitters, and then of course we do manage to have our clueless suburbanites and soccer moms. (no offense to the suburbs, guess where I live.)

It is true, Utah is the only state where Bill Clinton came in last, behind Ross Perot, and I believe Bo Gritz. :p

CZ, none of us Mormons will disagree with you. Mountain Meadows was a travesty. It is a stain on the history of our state. But in my ancestor's defense, a whole lot of wagon trains passed through Utah with no problem, it was a lone incident caused by one group of people, not the whole society.

S_O_Laban
March 8, 2003, 01:17 AM
This has been an interesting thread for me. I must say that I'm highly impressed with the spirit of the High Road. When I saw the topic I was warming up the key board for what on many other forums would have been an all out war. I don't think any one appreciates others bashing things about their religion. I tip my hat to all who took the High Road on this one

Baba Louie, glad to see that I'm not the only one a little "Reorganized" around here:) :)

sm
March 8, 2003, 01:42 AM
Have to say the finest co-worker I ever worked with was Mormon.

Served his country flying C130's, Morals, values, everything impeccable.

I drank back then, add coffee and smokes...well neither side won the bet as to which one of us would change.

I took him to a range a couple of times just he and I. Later his family (5 kids) and I had the best time.We made regular trips, packed a lunch, made a day of it. Even the kids would get excited about going shooting. Even his 4 yr old knew the 4 rules...and not a bad shot either. He and the wife CCW, "just the way we were raised, and the way we plan on raising the kids". Really hated to see him go back to Utah.

16 th birthday his daughter got her wish...BHP from Grandpa.

Dave R
March 8, 2003, 01:54 AM
Who was it coined the phrase "Mormon Labe"? Was that Porter Glockwell?

I kinda like it, being an armed Mormon and all.

Goet
March 8, 2003, 09:55 AM
Come on down and visit us.

ZION'S CAMP (http://pub36.ezboard.com/bzionscamp)


And the title page:

http://www.angelfire.com/ut2/zionscamp/

cdbeaver
March 8, 2003, 10:28 AM
My best buddy of more than 50 years is a Utah Mormon and a hunting fool. He's written three books on the subject--including the last on an African safari he made last year.

He owns a slew of guns, loves to fish (poor fool) and will pick up a rifle or a shotgun at the mere mention of hunting.

Besides all that, he's really a very nice person, though he and I rant back and forth about politics--not religion.

Now the nut is seriously considering (at age 70) a hunting trip to Australia. Thinks that continent needs him to reduce the feral burro, dog and 'roo populations.

XLMiguel
March 8, 2003, 10:41 AM
My Mormon friends have explained to me that self-reliance is among the key tenents of the faith (e.g. many Mormon families keep a year's supply of food, as they don't believe in welfare), and self reliance includes self-defense. In the early days, they faced a lot of prejudice and persecution, so it was pretty much a necessity, and some say that they ended up in Utah becasue it was the only place they coud find peace. Even so, The feds had to send troops in a couple times in the late 1800's to put down Mormons 'uprisings', but I don't recall all the details as to what precipitated the gov't intervention. It has been my experience, that as a group, Mormons have strong family values, place a great deal of value on education, and have a strong work ethic, and make good neighbors (some get a little heavy on the proselytizing, though).

tetchaje1
March 8, 2003, 11:01 AM
I too agree that the thread has been fine, and has, for the most part, stuck to the topic of Mormons and guns. :)

The original question has just been discussed by numerous people here who are either Mormons or who have had Mormon neighbors, co-workers, friends, etc... For the most part, I think that the discussion has been surprisingly civil. Hats off to you friends... :)

Correia,
Maybe we should get together for a Utah THR shoot one of these times. We have Utah SIG gatherings over at SIGForum, why not THR gatherings?

matis
March 8, 2003, 12:06 PM
Quote:
__________________________________________________

And they were doing that which they felt was the duty which they owed to their God; for the Lord had said unto them, and also unto their fathers, that: Inasmuch as ye are not guilty of the first offense, neither the second, ye shall not suffer yourselves to be slain by the hands of your enemies.

And again, the Lord has said that: Ye shall defend your families even unto bloodshed. ... to defend themselves, and their families, and their lands, their country, and their rights, and their religion.
__________________________________________________



Reading this thread, Mormons sound great!



I am very happy with what I am, tetchaje1, but tell me -- can you make me an HONORARY Mormon? :D :D

Matis

Correia
March 8, 2003, 12:39 PM
Matis, no honorary title, but I can send over two nice young men in suits to make it official. :D ;)

We had a bunch of Utah TFL shoots. In fact if I recall correctly we were the first state to have a TFL get together. A THR shoot would be fun.

And just a shameless self promoting plug, we are having a 3 gun match at the FARM west of Lehi on March 15th. I'm the match director for this one, and there will be a few other THR folks there as well. See www.udpl.net for information.

Soap
March 8, 2003, 01:04 PM
Interesting thread! I am a Christian but not of the Mormon denomination...or any other denomination for that matter. I've talked to a few of the Mormons doing their mission on campus, nice guys and very easy to talk to.

Thanks for the small history lessons!

Russ
March 8, 2003, 01:25 PM
I can answer this.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When carrying 24 guns?
How does one:

(a) Walk?
(b) Climb into or exit a car?
(c) Go potty?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(a) You don't, you ride.
(b) Didn't have cars in Rockwell's day. How he got on and off his horse with 24 guns would be even worse.
(c) You don't have to because all the weight you are dragging around causes you to sweat all waste products from your body.

From what I have heard about Orrin Porter Rockwell, he was not someone you wanted to mess with. 2 guns or 24, he was a dangerous man if you were on his bad side.

I bought my first handgun in Utah from my brother who lived there. It was a Browning Challenger III. Pretty much the same as the Buckmark. He lived near the mouth of American Fork Canyon. We went about 2 miles up the road and shot it for a couple of hours. That was 1980. I bet you can't do that now. There are probably houses all over the place now. I haven't been there in a long time but I hear real estate is very expensive in Utah.

My brother moved to Seattle and sold his house years ago. He constantly whines and moans about how much he could have made on his house if only he had stayed in Utah longer.

matis
March 8, 2003, 01:48 PM
I've had quite a few visits from the nice young men in suits and we've had some good discussions.

I've had Mormon acquaintances before but didn't have much discussion about Mormonism with them. So most of what I know is from reading.

What I have learned is impressive: decent and smart people who rely on themselves and take care of their own. I've never been to Utah, but this thread triggered the idea to go visit sometime soon.

As to the Mormon attitude toward firearms and self-defence, I wish I could bottle it and feed it to some of my fellow Jews.

All the best,

Matis

Dave R
March 8, 2003, 05:18 PM
Yes, the LDS Church encourages all its members to keep a years' supply of food, clothing and fuel where possible.

Also a "72-hour" kit (which is a great starting place for the former). THR members would recognize a 72-hour kit as a "bug-out bag."

The Church does not mention a years' supply of ammo...so I guess we follow our own conscience :D

Selfdfenz
March 8, 2003, 05:44 PM
"They have got to carry weapons with them, to be
ready to send their enemies to hell in cross lots, whether they be
Lamanites, or mobs who may come to take their lives, or destroy their
property."
BY


Boy, I might just have a little Mormon in me. I love it!

S-:D

TheLastBoyScout
March 8, 2003, 06:28 PM
sorry for the non-sequitor, but what/ who are the lamanites?

-The(RomanCatholic)LastBoyScout

PS: Sounds like you guys do have your stuff together in regards to self defense alot better than the Catholic Church.

HABU
March 8, 2003, 06:52 PM
sorry for the non-sequitor, but what/ who are the lamanites? Its a long story. Let it suffice to say that they were at times the BG's in the Book of Mormon. They are better known as Native Americans today.

Edited to add: reading the Book of Mormon will yield a knowledge of not only who the Lamanites are, but of the early history of this continent and from whence its inhabitents came. It also has some good stories of battles.

Malone LaVeigh
March 8, 2003, 07:10 PM
MY ex-wife's family are Mormon. Some of the nicest people I've ever known. Though I understand they are all pretty liberal by Mormon standards. For instance, we were always welcome in their home, even though she had left the Church. It didn't hurt, I suppose, that we gave them their first grandchildren.

But as far as I know, neither her parents or her sister and her husband have ever had any guns. Used to look at me like I was sort of strange when I would mention them.

TexasVet
March 8, 2003, 11:49 PM
My best friend of many years is a Mormon and he's the ONLY person I know with more guns than me.:D I'm pretty sure he has at least one of everything Springfield Armory (the real one) ever made. (That's everything as in EVERYTHING! not just guns.)

blades67
March 9, 2003, 12:15 AM
The guns were known as "Avenging Angels"

My guns still are.:D

SodaPop
March 9, 2003, 06:21 PM
There are a few Mormons in my neck of the woods and they're the only people I know that actually make babies and have a strong family structure. I'm Catholic and live in a Catholic community and its an absolute abomination. I can't knock Mormons for any theological reasons because my own community is such a joke.

Which religious community is going to be around 30yrs from now if the Mormons are the only ones teaching the next generation?

Anyway........where would we be without 1911's and Battlestar Galactica?:D

tetchaje1
March 9, 2003, 10:14 PM
matis,
You actually may be more "honorary Mormon" than you think. ;) We Mormons have many beliefs that have surprising parallels and similarities with aspects of the Jewish faith. There are some interesting articles about covenants, temples, Zion, the Messiah, etc... that relate some of these parallels, as well as discussing the theological differences between the two faiths. Regardless of whether you are a Jew or a Mormon you are still "friend" and "brother" in my book. :) If you wanted to discuss theology further, perhaps dropping me an e-mail or PM would be better. If not, thanks for the nice comments. :)

TheLastBoyScout,
Habu's explanation of Lamanites is precise, but perhaps a bit too concise for satisfying the curiosity. I'll see if I can relate the history in two or three sentences further than what he has written, and then if you wanted to ask any other questions, feel free to PM or e-mail me (or anybody else here for that matter :) ) if you wanted more detail into our belief of where the native Americans came from.

OK. Here goes.

The Lamanites are were the descendents of a man named Laman and his brother Lemuel. These two men were the sons of a prophet named Lehi living in Jerusalem. Just before the destruction of Jerusalem (around 600 B.C. when Jeremiah was preaching), Lehi was warned to leave Jerusalem with his family. After arriving by ship in the Americas, Lehi died and another one of his sons named Nephi was called by God to be the next prophet. This flew in the face of the traditional Jewish custom (that Laman and Lemuel should be the next spiritual and civic leaders because they were older than Nephi), and they rejected Nephi and his family. For generations after that, the "Lamanites" as they were called, were the enemies of the "Nephites" until the Nephites were finally destroyed around 400 A.D. and the only people remaining in the Americas were the Lamanites, who are the ancestors of the Native Americans. :)

Well, that explanation is a bit longer than three sentences, but it is still condensed down quite a bit. Hope that helps. :)

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OK. Back to the discussion about "Mormons and Guns"... :)

Dave R
March 9, 2003, 11:06 PM
Mormons and guns? Let me say 3 words about that.

John Moses Browning.

His father's gun shop has been restored in Nauvoo, IL, I believe. And I believe his grandfather was killed by mobs in MO persecuting Mormons.

PvtPyle
March 9, 2003, 11:10 PM
Considering how many Mormons are on this board, I cant help but wonder where they all are come 3-gun and TFL/THR shoot time.........

matis
March 10, 2003, 10:12 AM
Thank YOU for the warm reply.

Friend and brother,

Matis



P.S. I'm still interested if you figure out how to bottle the Mormon attitude toward firearms.

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