[Skunkabilly]

Both seem to be about 12 oz., what's the difference between the two?

From what I gather, the Scandium/Titaniums can shoot .357 Mag while the Aluminum/Titaniums can't; is there any felt differences between the two provided you are shooting only .38Sp?

[Jim March]

No, the "feel" shooting 38 should be close if the gun weight is similar. S/T costs more than A/T and the Scandium (what we affectionately call "Riboflavin" around here :D) costs more, and is only needed for 357.

Personally, you will never hear word of me owning a 38Spl that weighs less than 14oz, or a 357 that weighs less than 18oz. In addition to the recoil issues and wrist damage problems long-term, I'm deeply troubled by the reports of bullets yanking out of the shells under recoil. I like revolvers because of their reliability.

As to wrist damage: John Taffin wrote several books on big-bore sixguns and is still considered an expert in the field even though he can no longer shoot them. After 30 years of serious handgunning with the 44Mag and above, he has basically no cartilage in his right wrist, almost none in his left. He types on www.sixgunner.com sporadically, and in all-uppercase because working the shift key causes extra pain. His username there (on the new forum which is searchable and the old which isn't) is "JT", you can ask him yourself or see his posts on the subject.

The "Riboflavin/Unobtanium" guns are going to head people right into the same direction unless they're careful.

[Serpico]

I'm with Jim....my 442 is plenty light for ankle or pocket...and it doesn't require a Nazi salute between follow up shots.

[Greybeard]

Had 342 (titanium) for 2 years as always gun. 38+Ps snappy but tolerable for experienced folks. Grip that comes from factory is made for carrying, not shooting. Had 340 (scandium .357) for last 2 years. Factory grips were the first thing to go. One of the reasons I replaced 342 with 340 is that scandium alloy frame MAY hold up better to lots of shooting. Time will tell.

With same grips and just one ounce difference in weight of guns, difficult to recognize much difference in recoil with .38s. .357's tho are in a whole different league.

Jim correct about some bullets jumpiing the crimp. I think I tested 13 loads when I got 340. Seems like 8 of 'em had one degree of movement or another after 4 shots. None so far as to lock up the gun, but disconcerting, no less, even Winchester Silvertips (.357). Biggest problem with non-jacketed bullets. Printing on side of my 340 even says not to use any less than 120g bullets.

340 currently loaded with the best "survivors" of testing: 3 +P 125g Gold Dots and 2 Federal Classic .357 125s. Compared to others, for me anyway, a dream to carry as "always" gun. :D

(With that said, there are some circumstances when a semi also goes along for the ride.)

[Jim March]

There's nothing wrong with having a J-class 38 as an "always gun" and then supplementing it with "more" if the circumstances warrant. By this theory, in a close-range furball the snub is still "first at bat" as it dominates short-range fights, and it's always carried in the same place (such as IWB). "Reload" is the bigger beastie in a shoulder rig or something, and that's also what you go to for extended ranges, multiple opponents, etc.

(This corresponds to the "Wakizashi" (short sword) and "Katana" (full battle sword) of classic Japanese practice.)

But if the J-class is what's *always* going to be with you, you have no excuse skimping on the holster. And with a good holster, a 14 to 21oz gun is no problem.

[Greybeard]

Mr. Jim Quote: "And with a good holster, a 14 to 21oz gun is no problem."

Agree, Mr. Jim, to an extent with "normal" dress (for some folks). I've have had a Model 36 since the 1970s so I've accumulated a j-frame holster for just about every occasion. Weight no biggie with belt, slacks, jeans, etc.

But ... Wintertime carry is often on ankle (that's why sometimes the semi up top). Admittedly, the "ultralights" have spoiled me. I carried a 638 some last year and could "feel" the 3 ounce or so difference above boot within a few hours of activity.

Come Texas summertime, those few more ounces are even MORE noticeable when hanging on my skinny butt in draw string shorts!
After getting acclimated to only a loaded weight 14 or 15 ounces, much heavier, for me, gets to feeling like an anchor. Admittedly spoiled. :D

[tex_n_cal]

A little off topic, but someone here probably handloads, and probably has one of those 12 oz Unobtainium Whifflesnubbies.

I'd try turning down the expander in your #2 die, to at least .005" to .007" smaller than bullet diameter. The resulting increase in case tension I bet would minimize bullets jumping their crimp. Avoid nickel plated cases, too.

This trick prevents autoloader cases from swallowing their bullets, and also helps keep revolvers from upchucking theirs.

I have no real use for a .357 snubbie, but one of those new light Model 396's in .44 special looks to me to be a heck of a backpacking gun. They are stamped "200 gr bullet max", but I think it would be neat if you can get them to not upchuck a 250 gr Keith SWC.

[Skunkabilly]

Shot the aluminum/titanium tonight. It wasn't fun :(

My hand started getting used to it by the end though but me thinks I'm better off with a knife! God I suck at those revolver things!

[Jim March]

I can make a pretty good case that there's also medical considerations:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=12554

If anything, the very "short sharp recoil stroke" may prove to be the worst in terms of wrist damage. If I sound alarmist, check that thread above.

[Greybeard]

Skunk - Did the one you shot (a Smith, I assume) have little factory grips and exposed backstrap? If so, I'd suggest DUMP 'EM! See thread Jim referenced above and/or http://www.gun-tests.com/performance/jul96injuries.html

FWIW, one often unmentioned advantages of the ultralights is that they can cause folks to carry SOMETHING in a decent caliber when they might otherwise be put off by the weight and not carry at all.

[10-Ring]

Skunk, have you shot a steel j-frame (ie. 60 or 640)? Would that make a difference or do you just need the practice shooting a DA revolver?

[M1911]

Yes, they are easier to shoot with larger, softer grips that cover the backstrap. Of course, the whole reason that I got a 642 was to be able to conceal it in my pocket, which wasn't possible with the larger grips. If I'm gonna carry in a belt holster, I can carry something a lot bigger and heavier than a 642 without a problem (e.g., my Kimber Compact Aluminum). So, I put the factory grips back on the 642.

The titanium and scandium models? As someone here once said, that's just a way for you to change dollars into recoil. The 642 is more than enough recoil for me. YMMV.

[Skunkabilly]

10-ring, only have about 5 rounds thru a steel framed 5-shot. I sucked with it, too. Maybe I need help w/ the DA trigger, or even better, a spear

[10-Ring]

Skunk, how about a carbon fiber spear w/ titanium tip? :D

[10-Ring]

Hey Skunk, if you're not too happy in your performane w/ a revolver, why would you have any interest in a P2000 w/ the LEM?

[M1911]

10-ring: In fairness, the P2000 with LEM trigger probably has 1) a much longer sight radius than a J-frame and 2) a real rear sight (unlike the shallow gutter on a 642). The LEM trigger isn't bad. It seemed to me to be better than a J-frame DA on the USPc LEM that I tried. Personally, if I change my USPc trigger group, it will be to safety only (variant 9) and i'll carry it cocked and locked, rather than LEM.

[10-Ring]

If Skunk says himself that he sucked w/ a DA revolver & has stated in a few threads & posts that he prefers condition 1, then he's not going to have a great deal of enjoyment getting used to the LEM (at least initially). I too have shot the LEM and liked it quite a bit, but it is an acquired taste & Skunk may not have acquired it, yet :D

[popeye]

Mr. Skunkabilly......Hang on. S&W is bringing out a new J frame made of "Floatinium". It is so light it will literally float away unless it's loaded. Gonna be in .480 Ruger caliber.