[Jim March]

I sometimes hang out on the www.sixgunner.com message board, and came across a post that made me stop and think:

http://forums.sixgunner.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2605

Read it? Good.

John Taffin is the author of several books and numerous gun magazine reviews, specializing in big-bore revolvers. On his website is a series of his history and reloading notes for various calibers:

----------------
The 9mm Magnum
The .475 Maximum
The 475 Linebaugh
The .460 Rowland
The .45 Colt
The .445 SuperMag
The .44 Magnum
The .44 Special
The .44 Russian
The .41 Action Express
The .40 S&W
The 10mm
The .44 WCF (.44-40)
The 10mm Magnum
The .41 Special
The .30-30 Marlin 336 Cowboy
The .30-30 Single Shot Thompson Contender
The .38 Special
The Freedom Arms 353
The .30 Carbine
The .32-20
The .38-40
The .500 Maximum
The .500 Linebaugh

source: http://www.sixguns.com/tests/index.html
----------------

Why isn't this happening more often? Probably because most competitive shooters are running as close to "squib loads" as the rules allow. Silluette and bowling pin shooters are some of the only exceptions and I hope those guys are being careful.

But is the issue limited to the big-bore guys?

An interesting quote:

Sadly, Cherry Corners [gunsmith shop] has closed its doors as of the end of February. Bud suffers from carpal tunnel syndrome in both wrists. One has been "repaired" and he has only 30% of his strength with it. When I asked if he had any idea of the cause he told me "shooting". Lots of it. Those of you who have one of the 625,000 L-frame 357's that Smith recalled, probably had it repaired and test fired by Bud. Something like half of them were shipped to him by S&W for repair. I did not realize just how important he was to Smith & Wesson until I called them about a warranty repair station and they told me that they opened two new ones here in Ohio to replace him, but thay don't do the magnum work. They still funnel that work to Bud. Only he has to use a Ransom rest for test firing now.

geoff kotzar


Source: http://yarchive.net/gun/revolver/s+w_probs.html

Now, in addition to a lot of full-house 357 in L-Frames, we don't know what else the guy was shooting. But it's still rather sobering, no?

Here's a doctor's view of the same subject:

http://www.gun-tests.com/performance/jul96injuries.html (plus the two links at the bottom of that article)

Jim's personal opinions follow:

First, I think we have a whole 'nuther reason to look twice at super-lightweight guns, no?

:scrutiny:

Second, even in steel L-frame and similar heft pieces (GP-100, Blackhawk, etc), the people who say "it's a magnum, shoot nothing but magnums in it!" are just maybe missing something: there's nothing "ubertactical" about being restricted to 22LR at age 55 because you're fresh out of wrist.

Given the extreme difference in your body's performance under combat stress, I've always had a sense that the "shoot nothing but full-power combat loads in practice" school of thought may be wrong. The reality is, if you have something like a steel J or K-class piece and practice mostly with 38s, the basics of trigger pull and sight alignment are identical regardless of kick. Hell, that's why we talk about dry-fire practice.

Somebody please explain to me why daily/weekly practice sessions of 50 - 100 38s followed by a cylinder or two of "full crack 'o doom Magnums" isn't workable, in light of the obvious medical evidence and cases turning up?

[Ledbetter]

This
Makes
Sense

[dude]

wimps!


fwiw- my ti .357 snub with 'ribber' grips shooting full power loads is no where near as bad as the .454 Ruger that I shot ONCE. .........not even a 1/4th of the recoil!

I do shot mostly 38s with cyl or two of magnums at the end of each training session

[Jim March]

John Taffin wasn't a wimp.

The TI 357s aren't as bad as the Scandiums. The Taurus TI 5-shot 357s weigh...jeez, lemme look it up...

If your gun is a 7-shot it's 19.9 oz, not at all unreasonable (similar to a steel S&W 5-shot). That's assuming you're talking 2" tube:

http://www.taurususa.com/products/product-details.cfm?model=617TB2C&category=Revolver

If it's a five-shot, 17.3 oz. Maybe a hair less for an exposed-hammer variant? Still not too psycho, although light for my tastes:

http://www.taurususa.com/products/product-details.cfm?model=651SH2C&category=Revolver

As you mentioned the ribber grip, I'd guess you probably have a 7-shot. The weight difference between that and the S&W "Riboflavin" 12.something-oz is just a whole 'nuther planet.

Mind you, with a 19.x-oz gun, I *still* wouldn't recommend constant practice with full house.

[Al Thompson]

IIRC, JT did an article in AH a couple of years back outlining his personal problems with his wrists.

Something to note.

[Greybeard]

http://www.gun-tests.com/performance/jul96injuries.html is a good article. Thanks for posting.

In retrospect, I suspect that 40+ years of slinging around baseball bats and hammers has helped keep me in shape for shooting handguns. And/or operating drills, screw guns, skill saws and shovels. In a society where keyboards are the predominant work activity or pasttime, I can see where the medical problems in the article above could be a greater problem.

When transitioning from S&W 11-ounce 342 (38+P) to 12-ounce 340 (.357) a couple years back, the first work done to the gun was the addition of Crimson Trace "overmoulded" grip. For me, it made shooting +Ps no problem and took most of the "sting" out of .357s.

The older lady (60 something) who bought my 342 is a personal trainer, with fairly strong wrists. She viewed the recoil as "tradeoff" for light weight as an "always" gun. Once she shot my 340 with overmolded (rubber) laser grip, she ordered one for the 342 the same day. Last time I spoke with her, she said X-mas gifts for the grandkids had set her back and she regretted not getting out to the range. But, she said in the meantime, she loved having the laser grip on the gun for dry fire practice at home. In her profession, I'm sure she will appreciate the article above. Gonna forward to her promptly. Again, thanks for posting.

[WESHOOT2]

I have restricted my 'heavy' shooting to less than 20 rds per session, because I'm in for the long haul.

I've shot my chrono 5 out of 18 from flinch..........testing 'heavies' is my most dreaded job.

All my test wheels wear Pachmayr Decelerators, and re Ross Seyfried I may add a PAST shooting glove.


BTW, I got scars on both wrists :scrutiny:

[dude]

Jim's comments>>

"The TI 357s aren't as bad as the Scandiums. The Taurus TI 5-shot 357s weigh...jeez, lemme look it up...

If your gun is a 7-shot it's 19.9 oz, not at all unreasonable (similar to a steel S&W 5-shot). That's assuming you're talking 2" tube:"


.....my 7 shot Taurus 617T .357 ti snub weighs in at just over 13 oz, it's all about grip design and porting

[Blueduck]

wimps!

The ability to take pain (or be so "bad" you don't even feel it) has nothing to do with whether your sustaining permanant damage via carpal tunnel or other joint problems or not. These may well come back and haunt you in much later years. Personally I'm 33 and would like to be able to be shooting well into my 70's, not washed up at 40 or 50...

[dude]

jeeese! the "wimps!" comment was a joke

.....what a bunch of old ninnys we have here!

[Mike Irwin]

Even target shooters who shoot very mild loads, but over long periods of time, often have wrist problems ranging from mild arthritis to some really severe calcification of the joints.

[M1911]

I've got RSI (and a bad back) from spending too much time at the keyboard. RSI is no joke. Not fun at all.

[dude]

My right wrist is already screwed up with CTS because of all the 'wrenching' I do on my job as an aircraft mechanic.......I mostly shoot fine compensated Dan Wessons though, so it's no big deal shooting

[BigG]

Dang! Anybody want to buy my Sc and Ti for cheap? Heck, maybe I'll just go throw em in the river!

[MoNsTeR]

The recoil won't do near as much damage to you as DA trigger motions.

Computer use 16 out of my 21 years is catching up with me, especially in my right wrist.

[Stevie-Ray]

Carpal Tunnel syndrome hit me in both wrists a few years ago. It was because of added weight dips during my workouts, without keeping my wrists perfectly straight. It's definitely not fun. I can't afford another bout with it with my shooting going so well. I like to think .45 ACP isn't much out of a Kimber Ultra CDP or H&K USPc, but I'm sure it's taking it's toll as well. At least it's as unpleasant as I'm likely to get, as everything else on the menu is even less. My old "macho trip" days of 300 gr .44 Magnums, and Remington 300 gr .45-70 loads in the Contender are long gone. I wonder about Ross Seyfried even more than John Taffin. Though sometimes I think he enjoys pain. Anybody that enjoys shooting 8 and 4 bore rifles.................................

[Jim March]

Shoulders are a LOT more stout than wrists. But there's still a limit :eek:.

[Poohgyrr]

I remember Taffin writing something about heavy recoil messing up his wrist (s). I thought it might make sense, and I don't enjoy that kind of pain anyway.

[Gerald McDonald]

Probably more to do with the luck of genetics than toughness or line of work. I know guys who have smoked a couple of packs a day for 50 years with no obvious problems, I also know guys who have died of lung cancer after a relatively short smoking life. I also had an uncle who had sausage and eggs for breakfast along with every thing else eaten being fried for probably all of his 92 years, another died of a heart attack after 45 years of life. If genetics are with you (or luck) it may never give you a seconds problem, but why gamble.
Gerald

[Jim March]

Gerald, I don't see it being genetics on these "mechanical damage" issues.

Most of you know I did 13 years in computer tech support. For a while, I started to get some carpal tunnel-like issues in my right wrist, but I tracked it to my bike's 1/3rd turn throttle and stiff return springs. I switched to lighter springs, greased the cables well and went to a 1/4-turn twist grip and the pain faded, hasn't come back.

[Poohgyrr]

All this recoil stuff has me wiping down my new to me 20 year old S&W M24 .44 Special I picked up a while ago. This is one fine caliber and revolver.

Anyone think the same about their .38 Special or .45 Long Colt??

Those who haven't shot one of these really owes it to themself to try one.

[Jim K]

I suspect that the folks who claim to be so tough that recoil can't affect them are swimming with Cleopatra (in de Nile, folks, in de Nile).

Even if the old timers can take it, those ultra lights are a concern in another way. I always recommend firing at least consecutive 200 rounds of the carry ammo before placing trust in a gun. While that could be reduced for revolvers, the fact is that few folks will shoot anywhere near that number of full house loads out of one of those brutal little guns.

Which means that 1) the gun will not be shown to be reliable and 2) the owner will not have had enough practice to be even reasonably competent unless he or she has done a lot of shooting with similar (but less punishing) guns.

I think we are going to see folks who have bought one of those as a first gun and fired maybe one cylinder or less before tucking it in pocket or purse. IMHO, not good.

Jim

[Gerald McDonald]

Hello Jim, might not be genetics, but some people seem to withstand repetitive motion problems better than others. My two older sisters are within 2 years of each other. Both do basically the same job (typing and computer) and one has trouble with CTS starting about 10 years ago while the other hasnt had a bit of problem. Maybe its in posture, maybe something else but some people seem to be able to make it thru life with no problems at all, while others end up with surgery their only option. Maybe its a difference in pain tolerance.
Gerald

[Jim March]

Gerald, when I was doing PC tech support I used to notice that some people "type harder" than others...they just use more pressure on every stroke.

Some people have smaller hands, requiring more reach and stretch.

They may have been using different keyboards. And as I found out with my bike, there's many other factors at play too!

[44]

I have a S&W 340PD J-frame. Great to carry. But the recoil smack from full-power .357 125gr rounds seems like it could do damage to a hand or wrist with enough shooting - but I don't know. I don't shoot very many of them. 44

[Kahr carrier]

Great thread really gives you something to think about.:)

[22luvr]

Even though I enjoy the shooting arts, I do not practice much; maybe once a month and usually only about 100 rounds at the most.

Yes, I do practice shooting .357 loads through my 340SC Scandium, but only about 20 at any one session. They're fierce but I can draw, aim, and shoot this piece with accuracy and confidence.

I'm 57 and have been an aircraft loader off and on most of my life. Consequently, I have whopper strength in my hands, wrists, and forearms. I've never noticed any peculiar shooting-related problems but I use caution and moderation in my sessions.

[Kentucky Rifle]

When I was at my regular gun shop buying.....well, who KNOWS what I was buying??? I'm an impulse buyer. (And I admit it!) :) But there was a guy there who was insisting on a Sc .357 mag J-frame. I figured he was an experienced shooter. Nope. He had only shot .22's, but was going for his CCW that weekend and "wanted to take the practical part of the test with what he had chosen to be his CCW weapon". Plus, he wouldn't take the advice of the owner's wife to use .38 Specials's. He wanted full-house .357 mag ammo for the "carry gun which I have selected". She sighed, and then sold him a Sc .357 mag.
I've often wondered if he got his 21 shots off and obtained his CCW. Think he did? :) I think my wrists are OK, but "Ol' Arthur" is beginning to bend my fingers in weird directions. I shot only one cylinder of full-house ,357's out of one of those S&W Ti/Sc J-fames and wanted NO MORE!

KR

[Jim March]

22luvr:

My concern is that strength has no effect on the "compression effects" on the wrists. Basically, if you're strong as hell you can avoid the "muzzle flip" and associated pain, but there's NO human muscle/tendon present to develop that prevents the compression.

Follow? It may even be that the same strength that keeps a wrist stiff during firing makes things WORSE on the wrist as the recoil slams straight back on the cartilage.

[dude]

oh well

..........we obviously need to start banning these dangerous activities that cause compression damage!

-shooting ultra-light revolvers
-running

[Jim March]

Pointing out risks and calling for a ban are two ENTIRELY different things. If you think one equals the other in MY head, you're crazy.

If all this thread does is get people thinking, it'll be worth it.

[dude]

just poking some fun at the folks who don't like ultralite revolvers and can't just let it stop there..................but take every opportunity to trash-talk them (even if they have never fired one but just 'know')

[Gerald McDonald]

Howdy Jim, I talked to a friend who is a Doc, he did say not everyone will get CTS. He said there were a lot of variables such as your bodys ability to deal with inflamation, the actual size of the carpal tunnel. He did say for someone shooting a punishing load whether it be rifle or pistol on a constant basis that CTS is just one of many different nerve maladys that could present itself.
He said while some will not have any problems, some will get it for no reason that they can find and for some it gets worse and for some it goes away. I dont plan on gambling on it. I might carry a light gun but it will carried lots shot little.
Gerald

[Jim March]

Gerald, where *nerve* damage and CTS are concerned, I can see that.

But John Taffin is being very specific about something else: cartilage damage. That's the part that I just can't dismiss as "genetic". I could be wrong, but...

[Jim March]

Dude: I'm not the one reporting the guns to be jerking the rounds clean out of the shells and tying the guns up. That's the owners speaking...about that, and the recoil...let's not even start with the costs.

Regardless of my opinions on the suckers, the medical evidence and cases is something to think about.

[dude]

just practice with .38s if you (or anyone else) is worried about medical damage.......or don't buy one.

Like I said earlier, the Ruger .454 I fired was WAY more of an impact/recoil than my ultralite revolver with full power .357s and would be way more damaging if fired alot.

[Gerald McDonald]

Hello again Jim, I meant to add that he also said, were you to spend half of your life plugging away with the bad boys chances are you would also become well aquainted with arthiritis. I have no doubt they are hard on joints, cartlidge and assorted nerves and what not.
Gerald

[280PLUS]

I don't need to go into MY feelings on this subject again. Some may feel maybe I work for s&w and am trying to push the .32 mag for them but IMHO it is the best compromise for all of what is being said above and those of you who don't really feel you need a cannon to get the job done. I see Taurus makes them too so there is a less expensive option for those of you who aren't sworn to buy American like I am. For you extra testosterone types Ibuprofen is a good answer to your CTS woes and may even hold off the knife for a while if you're lucky. There is also a wrist splint that is pretty effective. I could have used a release in both wrists years ago but by watching how I use them and identifying what irritates them I've had pretty good luck so far. And for those that shoot them Airlite .357's once and then carry them, good luck!

:what:


m

[gumshoe4]

Very interesting thread. I've carried a 649 for many years now, but I would not say it's pleasant to shoot. When I take it to the range, it gets its 50 or so rounds and then I'm done with it for awhile.

The SP101 is fine to shoot with .38 or .38 +P - there's enough weight there to soak up the recoil and recovery time is pretty good, but when you go to the magnum rounds, look out. They are hard to control and hard on me as well.

From the standpoint of shot-to-shot recovery and personal preservation, I think there is definitely an argument to be made that steel-frame guns in non-psycho calibers make a lot of sense. For awhile, I owned a Walther PP in .32 ACP. That was an eminently shootable gun, but not much stopping power.

Everything is a trade off, but I freely admit to being a recoil wimp. Like some of the others above, I want to be able to shoot my whole life, even when I (inevitably) become more fragile when I'm elderly.

Bob
TFL# 8032

[Mannlicher]

I have no conception of what CTS, arthritis or joint pain feels like. I am getting older, near 60 now,but just don't suffer from any of that. I have shot thousands of rounds of .357, .44 Mag,and heavy .45 Colt rounds. I shoot thousands of rounds of .45 ACP each year. I spent many years doing construction work, and restaurant work. I have worked farm and ranch.

My younger brother, an occasional shooter, and an office worker, has severe problems with pain in his wrists. I don't presume to figure out why, but I really feel a persons succeptibility to CTS has a lot to do with lifestyle, and how you maintain your body.

[280PLUS]

CTS really depends on the size of the cartilage tunnel through which all the tendons and nerves of the hands pass. If the tunnel is small to begin with and you use your hands a lot, the overdevelopment and subsequent increase in size of the tendons from years of use cause them to pinch the nerves to the hand. It starts with numbness or tingling in the tip of the little finger and ring finger and can progress to the point of pain and numbness in all fingers and eventual inablilty to use the hand. It can also lead to PERMANENT nerve damage. I know lots of guitar and keyboard players who can't play anymore because of this. The constant impact of a handgun on the palm of the hand can also irritate the carpal area and lead essentially to the same condition. This can also be cause by hammering, screwdrivers, power tools etc. Again, if youre careful, ibuprofen, wrist splints and cautious use of your hands can reverse the condition but if not the last resort is a "carpal release" in which they cut the tunnel along its length allowing it to spread open and provide more room for the nerves and tendons. I hear its about 6 weeks down and 50/50 on the success rate which is reason enough, for me anyways, to do the best i can to avoid the knife. If, after all those years of popping off the big ones your hands are not affected, you should be counting your blessings, I'd bet the majority of us would not be so lucky. I have only been shooting regularly for about a year now and mostly .22 so I am not experiencing any new or increased carpal problems as far as I can tell. Here's hoping it stays that way!

:cool:

m

[Greybeard]

Quote: "It starts with numbness or tingling in the tip of the little finger and ring finger and can progress to the point of pain and numbness in all fingers ... "

:what: Now THAT I can sometimes relate to - in left hand only.
Daughter played serious fast-pitch softball for many years and guess who got to be her practice partner? She's got a rifle for an arm and those big balls are heavy! Once in high school, I had to go buy a catcher's mitt and padded glove just to "play catch".

Fortunately, she's moved on to other interests and the painful combination of numbness/tingling in left hand fingers is very infrequent - most common when I've gone way too long without going and then begin to pee ... :( Whaddyathink, doc?

[22luvr]

As with all the guns I buy, I do painstaking research and "ask the guy who owns one."

I was well aware of the recoil potential on the Scandium revolvers and considered the possible after-effects of same.

However, I am more on the periphery of the shooting arts and figured putting 20-25 .357 magnum rounds downrange once-a-month through the 340 would do minimal damage. Now, if I was out there putting 100 magnum rounds at a time every week, there would be genuine concern for the physical after-effects.

Appreciate your concern and now's my chance to thank you for your dissertation on what to look for in a used revolver. I've referred to it often and have bought a couple of creampuffs.

Best Wishes...............

[TonyB]

That's why I got rid of my S/W Bodyguard and got an SP101.....I like to shoot alot....I don't like pain...I also have a wicked case of arthritis..all over, including my hands and wrists...I want to shoot till I die...that means no 454's..no air weights....But I also refuse to shoot only 22's......so a medium heavy gun w/ a medium heavy load is what I've chosen...even for my carry....thanks for the info
Jim...sa allways good work!!:cool:

[WESHOOT2]

I don't care how much you've worked out, .452" 335-370's launched in excess of 1100fps are heavy, and a steady diet will spoil the fun.

[Blackhawk]

Still thinking about "9mm Magnum." Interesting concept.... :D

[Stevie-Ray]

Wildey Moore's high-dollar gas adjustable auto was originally chambered for the 9mm Magnum and the .45 Magnum. Man that was a long time ago.

[Berettafan21]

Dude
I think that you are mistaken on the weight, you list for your 7 shot .357 mag 617 titanium. It is 19.9 ounces for that model. Just for comparison the 605 titanium which is a 5 shot .357 mag weighs 16 ounces, the and the 6 shot titanium 731 .32 h&r mag weighs 13 ounces. Maybe this will help you when drawing conclusions with regard to what others are experiencing with their lightweight revolvers

[denfoote]

I would have liked to!!
Instead, this is what I got!!!

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[pauli]

heh. 30.1... months.

[Brian Williams]

bLAST FORM THE PAST

[confed sailor]

there is nothing wrong with a healthy respect for recoil. if you want to call me a wimp so be it, but im not a masocist. when i go out to the range i like to throw a few hundred rounds downrange, and though some people think protection from recoil messes with their "machisimo", i always use a slip on limbsavr pad with my rifles. i dont own a big-bore handgun, but if i did, id get pachmyr grips for it.

case in point, my father has arthritic hands from .44mag shootting, and wont shoot my rifles for fear of a detached retina (prior eye problems btw)

you can call me a wuss, but when im 75 ill still be shooting.

[rallyhound]

Dang! Anybody want to buy my Sc and Ti for cheap? Heck, maybe I'll just go throw em in the river!

Please forward to me a map of the spot in the river where you will be throwing the gun.
A date and time would be appreciated also.

[mete]

Heavy recoiling rifles such as the 458WMag and heavier can also cause problems. Detached retinas and nerve damage to the neck [head whips back and forth]. Nerve and muscle damage to the shoulder.

[jamz]

Kind of a shock to see Kentucky Rifle posting again. Then I saw the date. :o

-James