HD Shotgun Question...

[XD40EZO]

Do you keep your HD Shotgun Loaded? Do you leave one in the chamber or just in the mag tube?

Just curious...

peace,

[dfariswheel]

Most people leave their HD gun in "Cruiser ready" condition like the police do.
Magazine loaded, chamber empty, hammer down on the empty chamber.

All that's necessary to use it, is to pump the handle, there's no strain on the hammer spring, and its safe.

[Lee Lapin]

Cruiser ready is the way we go here too.

Magazine is loaded 'one down' or one round short of being fully loaded. That leaves room for inserting a different load into the mag than the buckshot it is loaded with, and relieves a little pressure on the mag spring too. There's extra buckshot on board in the SideSaddle and a couple of slugs too.

Hammer's down on an empty chamber, always checked visually and manually before dry firing, safety's back on before the gun goes back into its hidey hole.

Takes too much time to load the magazine from scratch, don't like to keep it empty- but the slide can be run as soon as you get two hands on the gun, with the mag loaded. Don't like to keep the chamber loaded on a house gun, for sure when action is imminent but not when it is just sitting on the pegs. If you cut things so close you can't rack the slide on a house gun when you pick it up... well, maybe a bit more situational awareness and/or perimeter security is in order.

Stay safe,

lpl/nc

[El Tejon]

Yes, but no children here.

[JNewell]

Go with cruiser ready, as outlined above; keep additional ammo on the gun (my preference would be a side saddle carrier, but YMMV).

Obviously, you need to consider security issues, and children are not the only factor there. There was a thread recently on heavily-discounted GunVault shotgun locks that secure the receiver. (A side saddle won't fit in the lock, though.) GunVaults offer very speedy access to a loaded (or unloaded) gun, and reasonable security (subject to the issues with the key)...but that's another thread, don't want to hijack this one.

[cslinger]

3 days out of the week the shotgun is loaded......."Guess which three" :evil:

Actually ours are loaded safety on. If I do plan on racking to scare somebody I figure I can waste a shell then.

Chris

[XD40EZO]

Awesome! That's a new term for me "Cruiser Ready"... just curious, because i pretty much keep my handguns (or at least my HDs) chambered...

peace,

[foghornl]

1911 on bedside table is cocked-n-locked, one in chamber, Maverick 88 is 'Cruiser Ready'

[sm]

No Kids-

Everything I keep on my person; or I keep on-site is fully loaded , and round chambered...

Snick & Shoot :)

[308win]

NO KIDS. 1991A1 on top of nightstand - cocked & locked; 870HD leaning against wall between bed and night stand - loaded and safed with full magazine; XD9SC - carry gun in house - cocked; Model19 in nightstand - loaded, hammer down. Two one year old shelties - cocked and locked but they are more strategic than tactical, although one is evil black (and white) :rolleyes:

[jason10mm]

I keep the slide back and a shell loose in the chamber. So all I have to do is lift up the shotgun by the forearm and it chambers the shell. Not really sure why I keep it that way, but it does allow me to easily see if the weapon has a shell in the chamber, and I can clear it and close the chamber if I want to transport the firearm without emptying the mag tube.

[Lee Lapin]

Nice little admin detail for those with short fore-ends that do not cover the front of the loading port (y'all Ithaca 37/87 folks, not talking to you here) when the slide is back- your strong hand thumb can serve as a magazine cutoff to let you open the bolt on a pumpgun either with or without a round in the chamber. Just push the shell in the magazine forward a bit with the tip of your thumb and ease the slide back. If the fore-end covers the loading port you're apt to get pinched. Hold the buttstock under the strong side armpit with the gun in a sort of extra low low ready, watch the muzzle and ease the slide back with the weak hand after tripping the bolt latch if necessary. When you learn where the activation points are on the action bars you can get your thumb out of the way sooner.

Done right, you get the bolt open on an empty chamber without cycling the next load thru the action. Like anything else, if you do it wrong all sorts of bad things can happen. Feel it out for yourself, and be careful...

lpl/nc

[Chuck R.]

I’m a Benelli fan, so I keep 6 in the magazine, one on the lifter. My boy is now getting mobile and in to everything, so I just purchased a V-Line “Top Draw” safe for my SIG 220ST:

http://www.kcsafe.com/Handgun1.htm

It’s big enough for the pistol, a couple mags and my Surfire light. I’m pretty impressed with it, so I’m going to order one of their long gun safes for my M1S90.

Chuck

[Sportcat]

Hey guys... I'm still new to shotguns, but I have an 870 Magnum. What does

hammer down on the empty chamber

mean?

I presently keep mine totally unloaded, but will probably start keeping 6 shells in the tube. (no kids, but nervous wife).

[Rockrivr1]

I also keep my shotgun loaded in the magazine tube only. I don't have any kids yet so I don't worry about someone finding it and playing arounds. I figure if someone breaks into the house the distinctive noise the shotgun makes when I load up the first shell will make them think twice about sticking around ;)

"hammer down on the empty chamber"

Actually this is more a revolver saying then anything else. This is when a shooter will load 5 rounds and leave the 6th empty. They would then put the hammer down on the empty cylinder when in the holster.

[ReadyontheRight]

"hammer down on the empty chamber"

Pick up your 870 magnum. Make sure it's empty. You notice that you need to press the lever by the trigger guard to cycle the pump action to make sure it's empty. If you pull the trigger and put the 'hammer down', you can then cycle the pump action without pushing this lever.

So "cruiser ready" means you have the chamber empty, you have the magazine full (or full minus one to keep the springs fresh) and you have (SAFELY!) pulled the trigger on an empty chamber so the action is all ready to cycle a round into the chamber.

Of course, be VERY careful when pulling the trigger, point it away from anything you do not want to destroy and ensure that the chamber is truly empty.

Is there a term for this same condition with the hammer "up"?

[4Truck]

I keep my 870 loaded w/ 6+1 and 6 in the sidesaddle

[Moondoggie]

My 870 sits at the front of the safe, 4 ft behind me...when I'm home, safe's open.

It's "Cruiser Ready" with 9 in the tube + 6 in the sidesaddle. All 00 Buck & slugs, 2/1.

The 4506 in the nitestand has 1 in the chamber + 9 in the mag, safety off (it's a DA), the P-16 at my workbench is cocked & locked, and the other guns throughout the house are revolvers.

There's a flashlight by every gun.

Ahhhhh...the empty nest! Guns can be accessable and clothing is optional!

[444]

My shotgun is fully loaded including a round in the chamber, safety on.
If I am interested in trying to scare someone, that will be accomplished when I issue a challenge and turn the Surefire on in their face.

[Zach S]

I keep my 590 chambered with the mag tube downloaded by one. All other longarms are condition 3, even my 10-22. All functional pistols are fully loaded.

[proven]

my 870 is loaded "-1", cruiser ready in the closet @ the foot of the bed. 1911 is on my person or in the nightstand drawer w/ a surefire (with the drawer left open a touch), cocked and locked, 8 + 1

[XD40EZO]

So you guys are saying that Shotguns are pretty "trust-worthy" and "safe" to keep locked and loaded (chambered)???... and I should give it same trust as I do with my pistols...

...coz my pistol's locked and loaded 27/4 (anywhere/anytime)...

peace,

[Sportcat]

27/4 (anywhere/anytime)...

27 hours a day/ 4 days a week :neener: :D

[Dave McCracken]

Maybe there's some misconceptions about Cruiser Ready....

From the Md Dept of Public Safety And Correctional Services Reg book.....

"The duty shotgun for all agencies is the Remington 870 Police Shotgun in 12 gauge. Variances may be granted by the Chief Of Operations or the Commissioner.

Issue ammunition shall be 00 buckshot, 9 pellet, 2 3/4" only. All officers will qualify with buckshot. Familiarization firing for new officers can employ birdshot for part of the training, but buckshot must be used for at least 50% of the rounds fired.

Shotguns will be kept stored in vehicles and towers in Cruiser Ready condition.

Cruiser Ready Condition is:

Safety on.

Action locked shut.

Chamber empty.

Magazine full on standard weapons, those with extended magazines loaded with 5 rounds.

All officers will be trained to employ the shotgun from Cruiser Ready Condition and return it to that condition after chambering any ammunition.

Any violations of the above will be treated as safety violations that could cause death and/or serious injury.Disciplinary action will be taken under DCR 50-yadayada"......

Think about it. No depts want their troops dropping hammers on supposedly empty chambers every shift change. Sooner or later that chamber won't be empty.

With the action locked closed, safety on and an empty chamber, cogniscienti can arm and fire in about one second. Those who know nothing about REAL pumpguns will take lots longer if they can do it at all.

I know of NO US depts where action unlocked or a chambered shell are part of their SOPs. Any that do are open to litigation up the wazoo.....

[XD40EZO]

sorry Sportscat...hehehe a little dyslexia kicked in... but y'all know what i mean...

[XD40EZO]

they need to install "decockers" on shotguns...

[Zach S]

Thanks Dave, after reading some of the replies in this thread I thought I had it wrong all these years.

[ReadyontheRight]

Whoops! I guess my definition of "cruiser ready" has been wrong all these years. Sorry! Thanks Dave Mc for the correction. Good point about putting the hammer down 3 or so times per day at shift change.

Yet another reason to know thy shotgun. The lever to open the action and the safety are in a different spot on almost every pump shotgun I've handled.

[proven]

thanks for the post dave.
any reason standard tubes are loaded full, and extended tubes are loaded with 5 rounds (which would be "one down")??


brian

[Sportcat]

Great information here! Unfortunately I'm having a heck of a time finding 12ga, 2 3/4", 00 buck, 9 pellet shells around here. :(

[Mannlicher]

For me, a defense weapon is going to be loaded weapon. That means chamber as well as magazine. Most of the time, the need to react has a very small window, and the less I have to do to be able to counteract a threat makes the response faster.

[Lee Lapin]

Dave,

After all these years you know that if I were gonna pick an argument over anything shotgun related, you would be the last person on the continent I'd be apt to square off with. So please don't think of this as argumentative, because it isn't intended to be at all. Nor is it an attempt to further muddy already roiled waters. That there is a difference in definitions re. the terms is not surprising.

I was taught my serious shotgunning by non-LEO instructors- some were military, some were civilian. The magazine loaded/chamber empty/hammer down/safety on status was what I was taught, and it was defined by some as 'cruiser safe' or 'cruiser ready.' Note that I have never been employed in law enforcement professionally, I did work reserve status for three years with the small- town department where I lived in the late 1970s but that was it. I have never had training on shotguns at the hands of a certified law enforcement trainer.

Again, I am not attempting to launch a dust-up here over what is right or proper or best, it is obviously not for me to say because I am certainly in no position to be considered an arbiter of what constitutes tactically proper shotgun manipulation. I can certainly understand the concern over three shifts a day dropping hammers on shotguns every time they get ready to put them in the racks. Given that perspective I would most likely not train/teach/instruct the 'hammer down' mode either. The inevitability of ADs/NDs/whatever is not to be argued with when daily manipulation of shotguns by a number of people working at varying degrees of alertness is taking place.

But some are in fact teaching the hammer down mode. Please note the following:

http://www.aslet.org/i4a/pages/index.cfm?pageid=559


"Cruiser Safe" and "Select-A-Slug" [snipped]

A Closer Look at Two Tactical Concepts

By Captain Marshall McDonald

[Inserted here from author's biography elsewhere on site- lpl]
ASLET is pleased to have Captain Marshall McDonald as one of our online columnists. In addition to being a longtime member and state representative for ASLET, Captain McDonald has 17 years of service with the Oklahoma County Sheriff’s Office and has been a certified trainer since 1987. He holds numerous state and national certifications in firearms, defensive tactics and law enforcement driver’s training, and has been assigned as a fulltime firearms instructor and Rangemaster for 8 years. He has served on the agency’s Tactical Unit for 15 years, and has completed assignments with the sniper unit and the entry team. For the past 10 years he has been assigned as the Operations Commander and Training Supervisor for the Tactical Unit. [End bio insert-lpl]



The “Cruiser Safe” mode and “Select-a-Slug” procedures are both vital concepts that support the efficient tactical deployment of the shotgun while maximizing safety and convenience.



Many patrol vehicle roofs, windshields and trunk lids have been unexpectedly mangled by officers who were not sure of the condition of the shotgun they were handling. The property damage pales in comparison to the risk presented to fellow officers and the public when the negligent discharge of a firearm occurs.



The term “Cruiser Safe” was coined to define the degree of readiness that a shotgun can be placed into, so that everyone will be aware of its condition. When in “Cruiser Safe” condition, the safety is in the “ON” position and the shotgun is magazine loaded with buckshot. The chamber is empty and the weapon is in a “hammer down” condition. (The hammer must be in the down position to unlock the action bars so that the action can be cycled when a round is needed)



When preparing to make the shotgun “Cruiser Safe”, you must first make sure that the safety is in the “ON” position. Then open the action so that you can physically and visually check the chamber and magazine tube to insure that no ammunition is present. Once you are certain that the weapon is not loaded, you may proceed with the following steps.

Slowly close the action, while keeping visual contact with the open action, insuring that no ammunition is loaded into the chamber.
Once the action is closed on an empty chamber, point the muzzle in a safe direction. (A safe direction is defined as that in which personal or property damage will not occur should there be a negligent discharge)
Move the safety to the “OFF” position, squeeze the trigger and move the safety back into the “ON” position. This step will cause the hammer to fall, releasing the action so that a round can be cycled into the chamber when needed.
Failure to successfully complete step 3 will cause the action to be locked, and will require that the action release be activated before the action can be cycled.
Fully load the magazine with buckshot.
The shotgun is now loaded “Cruiser Safe.”



To deploy the shotgun for action, you simply cycle the action, which will load a round from the magazine, and move the safety to the “OFF” position when ready to fire.

Now, let’s assume that you have deployed the shotgun from your vehicle and have cycled the action. You determine that you do not need to employ deadly force and are no longer posed with a threat. You need to return the weapon to “Cruiser Safe,” so that it can be stored in the patrol car rack again.



Can we accomplish this without completely unloading and starting over? The answer is yes, and the procedure is not only quite simple, but closely resembles the Unloading procedures covered last month.





The following procedure must be followed to the letter to avoid a negligent discharge.

Point the muzzle in a safe direction and insure the safety is in the “ON” position.
Grasp the shotgun by the grip portion and hold the shotgun parallel to the ground.
Use your support hand to begin slowly opening the action. Your support hand thumb can be placed over the top of the barrel to assist in controlling the speed in which the action is opened.
Open the action until the nose of the shell that is being extracted from the chamber, just clears the front of the ejection port and begins to be turned outward. The action should be almost all of the way open with about ¾” of the bolt showing, near the rear of the ejection port.
Do not open the action any further. Use your support hand to remove the shell.
Carefully close the action making sure that no ammunition is being loaded into the chamber.
Once the action is closed on an empty chamber, point the weapon in a safe direction and move the safety to the “OFF” position. Squeeze the trigger and move the safety back into the “ON” position.
This step will cause the hammer to fall, releasing the action so that a round can be cycled into the chamber when needed. Failure to successfully complete step 6 will cause the action to be locked, and will require that the action release be activated before the action can be cycled.
Insert the shell that was removed from the chamber back into the magazine.
The shotgun is now returned to “Cruiser Safe.”



We have found that requiring all shotguns to be loaded “Cruiser Safe” when stored in vehicle racks has cut down on confusion and allow everyone who accesses the weapon to have a reasonable idea of the condition of the weapon, however this does not relieve you of the responsibility of checking the condition of any weapon you handle.
["Select-a-Slug" portion of column removed- lpl]

[EVIL5LITER]

Lol, so how do I make my SxS "cruiser ready"?

[Duke of Lawnchair]

Shotguns are kept cruiser ready at my home.

-Jim

[Dave McCracken]

Proven, the paradigm is that over time, long mags tend to telescope shells. DOC is supposed to change ammo every month, but it doesn't always happen. I've gone up to 4 months at a time without changing things loaded one down without a prob.

Lee, thanks for the heads up. I do think I'll keep things the way they are here.

And for our folks who are in LE and have both duty and personal shotguns, I strongly recommend having the brands and kept conditions match. IE, if your duty weapon is an 870 kept as I do, your personal weapons should be 870s kept the same way. Zero dark 30 in a crisis is no time to need to recall where the safety or slide release are......

[ny32182]

I'm gonna bump an old thread....

the paradigm is that over time, long mags tend to telescope shells

With rifles and pistols, the common thought is that fully loaded mags will not fatigue the mag springs, even over the course of decades. This doesn't seem to be the case with shotguns?

Also, is the quote referring to that issue, or something else entirely?

[slopemeno]

I conducted my own little experiment over an 18 year period. In 1981 I bought a Mossberg 500 8 shot. I took it home, loaded it in cruiser safe, and left it loaded (except for trips to the range) with the same ammo. Result? Magazine springs get much easier to compress when left loaded for that long, but they still work. Ammo doesnt seem to telescope, and I still have a couple of the original rounds.
Worry less-train more.

[ny32182]

What is meant by the term "telescope" in this context?

[Dave McCracken]

Telescoping is when the shell shortens in length and gains width. Think of an accordion.

My HD 870 has been kept loaded one down for most of the last two and a half decades. Ammo is changed regularly. Spring is still in good shape.

[Smoke]

Not surprising different agencies would have policies as to cruiser safe.

My first professional gun school taught cruiser safe as: Mag loaded, safety off, hammer down. INstructors were all current and former LEO, many form the Midwest or upper Northwest. All were in agreement.

Local PoPo do it as Dave posted, it is my understanding this may be TX DPS policy also.

I use the hammer down on empty chamber, safety off myself. But would argue either is fine, just pick one and always leave it the same way.

Practice, practice, practice.

Smoke

[Mxyzpltk]

From what I've read, I understood that the reason for cruiser ready was the lack of firing ping safty in some, or most, shotguns, so that if you keep them with a load in the chamber there's the chance of an accidental discharge if droped, is that correct?, or is there any other reason for the cruiser ready condition to be teached almost everywhere?

I don't mind at all, or feel less safe keeping my m1s90 in cruiser condition, as with almost every other semi or pump, it'll be ready for action very quick, that's what training is for, and if I find myself without time to load the chamber it's probably already too late to try anything with it

[JNewell]

the lack of firing ping safty in some, or most, shotguns, so that if you keep them with a load in the chamber there's the chance of an accidental discharge if droped, is that correct?

I don't know whether that's all or most of the rationale for the empty chamber, but it's a very good rationale. Off the top of my head, I don't think any of the popular repeating shotguns have a safety that locks the firing pin, which is a fact that has been stressed in the training I've had.

[Lawyerman]

My serious shotguns are stored mag full, hammer down on an empty chamber, safety off. Rack and shoot.