[Northslope Nimrod]

1) Which semi-auto rifle is best for defense and for value? (Assault Rifle type....I know that is politically wrong...but I'm not sure of the proper reference). Won't AR-15's and Mini-14's have similar balistics given the same 223 caliber? Are Mini-14's still considered a viable option? They seem to be less $$$. If I want capability for long range shots...what caliber should I lean toward? I want to stick with a common caliber so ammo is plentiful. Should I wait until the new 6.8 becomes popular/militarized?
2) What rifle would you recommend for sniper capabilities (long range). Also which caliber? BUT exclude the .50 caliber and .338.

[Dave R]

An AR is probably your best all-around bet, based on what you describe. Its more accurate than the Mini. Its decent for long range (within the limits of the .223 round.) Long-range shooters do use .223...

The ammo is common and inexpensive.

And there are lots of options available for it, including uppers in different calibers, giving you a lot more flexibility.

The other options would involve a move .308, which is the 'other' common, inexpensive round. That would mean going to a FAL-type rifle. Which, oddly enough, may be a bit cheaper than an AR...

[artherd]

1) AR-15. The mini will do, but will generally be less accurate, and highcaps are hard to find.

2) Remington 700 bolt-action in .308Win, with Leupold or Nightforce scope. Preferably in the AI AICS stock, which is not suseptible to bedding problems.

(or my Armalite AR-30 in .338 Lapua Mag, or my Barrett M82-A1 in .50BMG :)

[357wheelgunner]

1. Mini 14s are great rifles. Very durable and reliable. I had one that would group under 2" at 100 yards with the right ammo. They do get inaccurate but only after the barrel heats up. Great rifle for a marksman, but not a good ".223 bullet-hose". If you can't solve a problem with 10 rounds from a rifle, you need to be running as fast as you can in the other direction. If you want to spray and miss 30+ times get an AR15, that is what everyone else does......

If you want a cheaper gun/ammo combo try an AK-47 clone, the ammo is much cheaper than .223 as well as the magazines. I had a Romanian SAR-1 that would bust a milk jug all day at 100 yards. the gun was $300 new, the magazines were $10 a piece and ammo for $99/1000 if you can find a deal. That rifle never jammed, pity I sold it. It was sold due to a crappy finish, but it was an awesome shooter.

2. Same as Atherd, he hit it right on the head. Get the Rem. 700 in .308 with a nice piece of glass.

3. Rem. 870 12 gauge, prefferably a police magnum. The quality is far superior to an 870 express model. Everyone needs a shotgun, and it does not getmuch better than a remington 870 (unless you are a lefty which means a mossy). The shotgun will not cause hearing damage if fired in a house the same way a rifle will (still hurt though). If your purpose is home defense get the shotgun and train with it. You will probably never need to use the rifle for SD (made for long range) but shotguns are great at close range

[nipprdog]

I know that is politically wrong...but I'm not sure of the proper reference
Homeland defense rifle. ;)

[Mannlicher]

For close work, its darn hard to beat a good AR. Colt, Bushmaster, Armalite, Rock River and others make good ones.

If the longer range appeals to you, then I think highly of my M1A. Set up right, they will shoot with a bolt gun all day long, and they are a LOT more fun :)

[DMK]

I've got SKS, an AK, a FAL, a Garand and a couple ARs that I built myself. My favorite all around target, plinking, home defense rifle is my M16A4 style AR.

The Russian guns are cheap to shoot, really tough and probably wouldn't jam if you threw mud in them, but they aren't very accurate (a mini-14 would probably shoot better) and let's face it, I baby my guns. I don't need an rifle that will keep shooting with no maintenance. I always take care of my guns.

The FAL is really cool and it is a very powerful weapon. There's a lot of firepower in a .308 rifle with a 20 round mag. This thing will chew up cement blocks without breaking a sweat. However, it's not extremely accurate either and it's kinda heavy. Really fun though!

The Garand is a tack driver, especially with match ammo. I had this one rebuilt and converted to .308 for a sizeable sum. I love this rifle. However, .308 really is overkill for any serious social use in my area of the country. I do love having these battle rifles in my safe for "just in case" though.

The ARs are the most accurate and the most fun. They are light, handy, easy to shoot and obviously adequite for self defense. The military and police have both been using 5.56 rifles for decades. As an added bonus, the AR's modularity lets you take your basic rifle and turn it into anything from a .22LR plinker to a 9mm carbine to a handy .223 carbine to a long range SPR by just swapping uppers. I have a dedicated .22LR upper for mine that I use to practice in my back yard. On this upper here, I have an Armalite scope mount that I can swap onto the rail in place of the carry handle. I can shoot a while with open sights, then swap on the scope to shoot with optics a while, then swap back. All without losing zero. This rifle is the king of versatility.


http://home.mchsi.com/~dmk0210/rifles/hd-A2.jpg

[hillbilly]

You can easily get an SKS and 1000 rounds of ammo for $250 or less.

If you shop real hard, you can get an SKS and 1000 rounds of ammo for like $160.

hillbilly

[NMshooter]

What is your budget?

[student]

What kind of defense are you talking about?? The hypothetical, out of your house, shooting bad guys at long ranges, playing sniper, makes you feel all warm and fuzzy inside like you can take on the world type semi-auto rifle? If so then I agree with the AR-15, mini-14, Su-16, AR-180B, Sar-3 types for .223. AK types for 7.62x39. Any good bolt action dedicated military rifle (mosin, enfield, mausers, etc) or M1A, DSA-FAL, Rem-700 etc.. for long range and high penetration. However, you said defense and that would likely suggest in the house guns. I like my hearing the way it is so I wouldn't enjoy firing any of the above indoors (some might even set your house on fire :) ). For that many would suggest the shotgun, but my preference is the pistol caliber carbine, typically good out to 150yds, could be lever action or semi-auto. Several to choose from. Bottom line is what you want to spend and what you plan on doing with it.

[Northslope Nimrod]

I'd like to keep it under $600. I DO want accuracy. I think I would go crazy with a gun that couldn't keep 4" shots at 100 yards.
On the long range rifle... Garands, can I find them cheap?
Also, I already have a Remington 700 30-06. Can they be loaded to compete with the .308 on distance shots?

[NMshooter]

If you reload the .30'06 can come close to .300 Win mag.

Be careful working up heavy loads, though.

For $600 or less in .223 I would look around for a used AR or anything else that caught my eye.

In 7.62x39 I would find out how much I could get an Arsenal AK for locally.

In .308 I would save my money, but if you are mechanically inclined you might consider building a FAL. All the good deals on parts are a thing of the past, though.

[ocabj]

On the long range rifle... Garands, can I find them cheap?

$300-$500 from the CMP depending on grade.

Also, I already have a Remington 700 30-06. Can they be loaded to compete with the .308 on distance shots?

Yes. .30-06 is ballistically similar to the .308. The .30-06 is perfectly fine for 1000 yard shooting.

[student]

Ar-15 might be tough for less than 600$, maybe used, but likely the best accuracy of the bunch, read up on the others. That said my mini can keep it under 3 inches, unless I try the bullet hose technique.
Get a garand from CMP (Civilian marksmanship program, not very complicated anymore to qualify), I just did and I love it. Priced from 300-500$, no FFL involvement. Would be a great companion to the 700 as is the same caliber, and could later rebarrel to .308 (just send to a qualified gunsmith). As to the 30.06 vs .308, apparently the 308 is more accurate due to smaller cartridge so less variation in powder distribution, but if you become a good enough shooter to tell the difference then you probably don't need me to answer these questions. Keep the 30.06 and don't worry about it.

[lycanthrope]

You can get a stripped lower for $90 and a full kit from Model 1 and come out with a complete AR for $515.

[ReadyontheRight]

Sounds to me like YOU need a Garand!

www.odcmp.com

Fulfilling the requirements is not all that bad. Just ask here if any of it confuses you. If you live near Ohio, you can even go pick one out for $500.

[artherd]

You CAN build an AR for less than $600, but you will be much happier with the one you build or buy for about a grand or so, as this will buy you all name brand Bushmaster/Armalite parts or the full gun. The very cheap AR stuff... well, I would rather trust my life to one of the ABCs.

[M2 Carbine]

I've got a lot of rifles that would do as a "defense rifle". Which one I'd want to use depends on what kind of "defense".
I'm not a real big fan of the AR and .223, even though I have 3, but I keep a 30 round magazine in my Bushmaster M4 and most things considered I'd consider it my all around defense rifle. ($750)

For a long range rifle I have a 30.06 Springfield 03A4.
$14.50 for the rifle, $20 for the stock and $30 for the scope, in 1962 :D

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v135/Bell406_206B/Bushmaster.jpg

[Northslope Nimrod]

What would an M1 Garand have on a modern hunting rifle in a 30-06? I have a Remington 700 30-06? Of course, mine is bolt action, but absent that, would the Garand be better....and why? I only paid $240 for my Remington.
For short range...most people still recommending .223? Will the new 6.8 become popular....and be a better choice?

[M2 Carbine]

M1 Garand v. Modern 30-06?

It depends on the use.

I was issued a brand new International Harvester M1 in 1956 (USMC).
Our qualification was out to 500 yards and it was deadly at that distance but you had to work at it with iron sights.

The semi automatic rifle has it all over a bolt action in a "defense situation" but the bolt action (considering it will usually be scoped) is the long range tool.

The .223 and the 30.06?
I have both, 4 .223 and 4 30.06 including 2 M1 Garands.
For shooting something the .223 is OK but for destroying something the 30.06 is a good tool. :)

[Lonestar.45]

Semi-auto rifle for defense with capability for long shots.....and you've already got a bolt action 30-06...hmm....I think a Garand would be nice, since you could share loads with your bolt rifle.

That said, if I were getting a semi-auto rifle for defense, and I already had a bolt 30-06 for the long shots, I'd get something like an SKS, AK variant, or if I had the money, a nice AR. The thing about defense rifles is, I don't think you really need something for long shots. Most defense scenarios I can think of would entail 100yds or less, probably 20yds or less, in which case a nice shotgun can't be beat!

[ReadyontheRight]

What would an M1 Garand have on a modern hunting rifle in a 30-06?

-Self-loading
-8 shots at your disposal
-Faster reloads - your ability to reload quickly is limited only by how many sub $1 clips you have loaded up. With any other semi-auto, you are limited by how much you want to spend on expensive magazines. This also is a benefit of an SKS and stripper clips.
-Harder to break

A bolt action will be less picky with ammo, lighter, less likely to jam (not all that likely on a Garand), easier to clean (but a boresnake works great on a Garand), have the ability to mount a scope and be slightly less complicated to maintain. Also -- you already own one.

[Rebar]

Self defense?

If you shoot someone 100+ yards away, you're going to go to jail, plain and simple. At 100 feet, you're still most likely going to jail. Even if you're not charged or get through the trial, you're most likely never going to see that rifle again.

With that in mind, I chose the mini-14. At 100 feet and under it's plenty accurate enough, reliable, and if it's confiscated I'm not out all that much money.

[ReadyontheRight]

What would an M1 Garand have on a modern hunting rifle in a 30-06?

I forgot to add the best reason to own an M1 Garand and its biggest benefit over a hunting rifle:

You can shoot a Garand in competition.

You can use a Garand in any highpower or service rifle competition and there are a lot of John C. Garand matches popping up all over the country and at Camp Perry. Great practice and great fun.

I don't know of any matches that use a hunting rifle and I don't think your typical hunting rifle can hold up to shoot dozens or hundreds of rounds at a time accurately in a match.

[Gewehr98]

If I want capability for long range shots...what caliber should I lean toward?

"Long-range defense rifle" - sounds like you're asking for trouble. If you're engaging hostiles defensively at ranges that require the extra legs of a .30-06, then you've got bigger problems... :(

[Mulliga]

What would an M1 Garand have on a modern hunting rifle in a 30-06? I have a Remington 700 30-06? Of course, mine is bolt action, but absent that, would the Garand be better....and why? I only paid $240 for my Remington.
For short range...most people still recommending .223? Will the new 6.8 become popular....and be a better choice?

For over 200 yards, you aren't going to get much benefit with a Garand - in fact, you'll probably be better off with the 700, especially if you are familiar with the gun and can work the bolt fast. True, you can load the Garand with clips, but the 700 is pretty easy to load from the top anyway.

You can buy/build a .223 AR now and buy a 6.8 upper when/if the 6.8 becomes the standard military round. Note that although people rag on the .223, it is still plenty powerful enough for short range work (under 200 yards).

[Lonestar.45]

Rebar: "With that in mind, I chose the mini-14. At 100 feet and under it's plenty accurate enough, reliable, and if it's confiscated I'm not out all that much money."

Yep. Not to hijack the thread, but I agree, that's why I've got an SKS. But really, 100ft is only, what 33.3 yds or so? Yet another reason I like my shotgun loaded with buckshot for home defense. I don't think it can be beat as a home defense weapon. It's cheap, you don't have to aim it with any real effort, and a walnut stocked pump shotgun shown to a jury doesn't look quite as "evil" as a tricked out AR with lights and lasers all over it, or even my SKS with the bayonet, or my WASR. If there's trouble on the homefront, I'm reaching for my shotgun and my 1911, in that order.

[HoustonHusker]

AR15..no doubt in my mind.

HH

[student]

Garand can do up close work (fast reloading, faster shooting, skull busting capable and bayonet ready) and reasonable distance/ good penetration. No comparison to a 700 which is more of a specialty weapon. Both good, just different uses.

[Zak Smith]

Self defense is reaslistically at "across your house" distances, 0 - 20 yards. Longer than that and you're likely going to jail.

A simple iron-sighted 16" AR15 kept safe but accessible will do the job well.

If you live out in the country and want to dispatch predators, it makes sense to have an intermediate range-appropriate optic mounted like an ACOG.

-z

[Northslope Nimrod]

Many have been preoccupied with my incarceration possibilities. I'm not planning on shooting a burglar or the like at 300 yards. Also..to be really technical...if it is only for defense and most defense would be within 20 yards...then a shotgun is far better. I want a semi-auto for "just in case"...but I also want it to serve multiple purposes. I like my guns to be versatile and not so specialized. That is one reason I shoot the 30-06. Versatile round that is plentiful. You can always find a buddy from whom you can borrow ammo.
To put it simple: I want an effective close range defensive rifle that has capability of long range shots (relatively long) as well. Let me worry about the politics/legalities of it. :) Besides...I do know something about those issues.

[Zak Smith]

A 16" AR15 with a flat-top receiver and good mid-power optic can make hits to 400-500 yards on 10" square targets. That is well beyond the "effective" range of 223.

http://www.demigod.org/~zak/DigiCam/Midlength-16/small/135_3597_img.jpg (http://www.demigod.org/~zak/DigiCam/Midlength-16/?medium=135_3597_img.jpg) [ link to LARGER image ] (http://www.demigod.org/~zak/DigiCam/Midlength-16/?medium=135_3597_img.jpg)

http://www.demigod.org/~zak/DigiCam/MSTN-LW17/small/143_4369_img.jpg (http://www.demigod.org/~zak/DigiCam/MSTN-LW17/?medium=143_4369_img.jpg) [ link to LARGER image ] (http://www.demigod.org/~zak/DigiCam/MSTN-LW17/?medium=143_4369_img.jpg)

-z

[landon74]

Since price is entered into the equation, for $600, you could buy 2 SKS's and several thousand rounds of ammo.... it ought to do everything you need to do defensively....

[355sigfan]

Self defense?

If you shoot someone 100+ yards away, you're going to go to jail, plain and simple. At 100 feet, you're still most likely going to jail. Even if you're not charged or get through the trial, you're most likely never going to see that rifle again.

With that in mind, I chose the mini-14. At 100 feet and under it's plenty accurate enough, reliable, and if it's confiscated I'm not out all that much money.
END QUOTE

Sorry but your way off base. Where did you go to law school? Your threat determines where you can shoot from. If he has a knife and he is 21 feet away I am shooting. If he has a gun and is shooting at me or attempting to shoot at me I am shooting him no matter what the distance. No cop would arrest you for defending yourself from an armed man at 100 feet or yards.

SNIP
Also..to be really technical...if it is only for defense and most defense would be within 20 yards...then a shotgun is far better
END QUOTE

Well thats an opinion but certainly not fact. I would much rather have a 223 semi auto. Its safer to use in the home than handguns and most shotgun loads. Its precise I don't have to worry about stray pellets. It has good stopping power. Low recoil and plenty of ammo.

SNIP
you don't have to aim it with any real effort
END QUOTE

This is a huge myth. A shot guns patern at across the room distances is about the size of a fist. You have to shoot it just like a rifle. Its not like shooting skeet.

Pat

[Northslope Nimrod]

Problem with .223 auto in a home defense situation.....You had better tell your neighbors to duck before you fire. Sheet rock and siding do not provide much protection.
I refer you back to my last post.....regarding the legalities and politics. I Appreciate the concern.

[sturmruger]

My home defense rifle is a Mini 14, I also have a Mossberg stashed in the basement. I am planning to purchase a Kel-Tect SU16 (http://www.kel-tec.com/su-16_rifle.htm) to keep in my trunk. I am going to fold it up and put it in a jumper cable bag and use if for SHTF scenarios. While I am really looking forward to having an AR someday, I am plenty happy with my Mini 14.

[RaggedClaws]

For in-home defense, I vote for a Ruger 10/22 carbine. Not much of a chance of over-penetration, and you still have the precision of a rifle for those hostage stand-off situations. Stopping power might be an issue, but then again, at close range, any bullet to the head or heart is going to work just fine (and 10 rounds are better 1).

:p

Of course if the redcoats, blue helmets, mutant zombie vampires, or the like are storming my castle, I'd probably want something a little bigger. In those sorts of situations, I'd vote for an SKS ('cause you get a whole lot for not much money).

[Zak Smith]

Problem with .223 auto in a home defense situation.....You had better tell your neighbors to duck before you fire. Sheet rock and siding do not provide much protection.
.
Not really.
http://www.ammo-oracle.com/

[DougCxx]

The main advantage of the AR guns is the accessories, there's more accessories than for any other similar gun, but accessories cost money.
....
For a long time the Mini-14's claim to fame used to be that it was the cheapest 223 semiauto available--but now that there are cheap 223-cal AK-variants around, the mini is a pretty tough sale to make. I owned one in the past, it functioned just fine and was priced less than the AR, but it wasn't as accurate as I'd hoped and fixing that (putting a match barrel in) would have pushed its total cost outlay and accuracy about to what an AR would have been anyway.
....
So I say, if you want a nice spacegun you can customize, get an AR. If you want a cheap gun with no accessories, get a 223-cal SKS: it can do the close-range-SD business very well, most certainly.... but barring any drastic improvements in its (re-tooled) accuracy, there's very little argument in favor of the Mini-14. They might as well re-chamber it in .480 Ruger.
~

[rbernie]

If you want a cheap gun with no accessories, get a 223-cal SKSI'd love a 223-cal SKS - where do I find one? :p

[355sigfan]

Problem with .223 auto in a home defense situation.....You had better tell your neighbors to duck before you fire. Sheet rock and siding do not provide much protection.
I refer you back to my last post.....regarding the legalities and politics. I Appreciate the concern.
END QUOTE

Sorry but thats false. 223's are safer in the home than your handguns.

Read this.
The Call-Out Bag
by Gunsite Training Center Staff
A Comparison of .223 Penetration vs. Handgun Calibers
The .223 shoulder-fired weapon systems (e.g., AUG, CAR) have received some recent interest as indoor tactical weapons for special operations teams. increased power, longer effective distances, and greater tactical flexibility have been cited as positive factors of the .223 systems over 9me SMG-type weapon systems. Other authors (Fackler, et all) have postulated greater capa-bility for tissue damage and incapacitation of the .223 rifle cartridge over the 9mm projectile fired from handguns or SMGs. Negative considerations for the indoor use of the .223 weapon systems focus on over-penetration of projectiles and possible subsequent liability.
Our effort was made to compare the penetration characteristics of various .223 bullets to various handgun bullets fired into test barriers representing indoor and outdoor building walls. We felt that the following test might mimic shots fired from inside a building, through the internal rooms, out the exterior wall, and into another similar building nearby. A comparison of wall penetration effects by a variety of handgun calibers versus the effects of .223 FMJ ball, .223 SP, and .223 HP, under these same conditions, was expected to substantiate other findings reported or provide new information to those interested in this area of ballistics.
Two interior test walls were constructed using a wood 2x4 frame with standard drywall board attached to both sides. Two exterior test walls were made using wooden frames with drywall board attached to one side and exterior grade T1-11 wooden siding attached on the other (exterior) side. R-19 fiberglass insulation batting (Dow Coming) was stapled inside the two exterior test wails. To maintain test medium consistency, no wooden cross beams, electrical fixtures, conduits, or electrical wiring were placed in any of the test walls.
The test walls were placed in the following sequence to mimic shots fired from. inside a building, through two internal rooms, out the building, and into another similarly constructed building:
A. Interior wall #1 was placed 8 feet from the shooting position.
B. Interior wail #2 was placed 8 feet beyond interior wall #1.
C. Exterior wall #1 was placed 8 feet beyond interior wail #2. (Exteri-or side facing away from the shooter.)
D. Exterior wall #2 was placed 15 feet beyond exterior wall #1. (Exterior side facing toward the shooter.)
All calibers tested were fired from a position 8 feet in front of interior wall #l, so the bullet trajectory would travel in sequence through each of the succeeding test walls. Each caliber tested was chronographed and all firing results were videotaped for archive files.
The following results were obtained:
1. All handgun calibers exited exterior wall #1. This means they exited the "house" after passing through two interior "rooms," then entered another "house" to impact into the berm. The handgun caliber which demonstrated the least penetration was .22 LR Lightning.
2. The only calibers which did NOT exit the "house" were .223 (5.56) soft point and hollow point loaded bullets.
3. All projectiles demonstrated directional changes in their trajectory after passing through the first interior wall. The greatest directional changes (10 inches+ yaw) were shown by 9mm and .40 S&W projectiles.
4. Directional changes in bullet trajectory appeared to increase in magnitude with each test wall the projectile passed through.
The penetration characteristics of projectiles have long been believed to be primarily determined by a relationship of bullet mass, bullet shape, bullet velocity, and bullet construction. The penetration differences of .223 soft point and hollow point projectiles versus the effects from .223 full metal jacket may be due to differences in bullet construction. The differential effects on penetration due to bullet construction shown with the .223 are different and appear greater in magnitude than those encountered when handgun bullet construction is modified. Since .223 projectile velocities are threefold greater than those of handgun projectiles, the increased magnitude of bullet velocity might account for the differences in bullet trajectory and penetration distance. The deviated trajectory of hollow point handgun projectiles was also greater than the deviation found with full metal jacketed handgun bullets; again, possibly due to contact point deformation. The preceding study more than ever identifies the need for a personal emphasis of marksmanship and tactical fundamentals. The shooter is responsible for the bullets that go downrange. Practice, be aware, manage your trigger, and watch your front sight!
Many thanks to Jack Furr, Ron Benson, Pete Wright, and Seth NadeI, U.S. Customs, for conducting and reporting this test.
.22 LR 40 gr Lightning 899 fps Captured in exterior wall #2
9mm 147gr Win JHP 948 fps Captured in exterior wall #2
9mm 147 gr Win JHP 1004 fps Exited exterior wall #2
.40 S&W 180 gr FMJ 941 fps Exited exterior wall #2
.40 S&W 180 gr Black Talon JHP 981 fps Exited exterior wall #2
.45 ACP 230 gr Win FMJ ball 867 fps Captured in exterior wall #2
.45 ACP 230 gr HydraShok JHP 851 fps Exited exterior wall #2
.223 (5.56) 55 gr Fed FMJ ball 2956 fps Exited exterior wall #2
.223 (5.56) 55 gr Rem SP 3019 fps Captured in exterior wall #2
.223 (5.56) 55 gr Fed JHP 3012 fps Captured in exterior wall #2





ALL OF THE INFORMATION IN THIS ARTICLE IS BASED UPON THE PERSONAL EXPERIENCE OF INDIVIDUALS WHO MAY BE USING SPECIAL TOOLS, PRODUCTS, EQUIPMENT AND COMPONENTS UNDER PARTICULAR CONDITIONS AND CIRCUMSTANCES, SOME OR ALL OF WHICH MAY NOT BE REPORTED, NOR OTHERWISE VERIFIED IN THIS ARTICLE. NOTHING HEREIN IS INTENDED TO CONSTITUTE A MANUAL FOR THE USE OF ANY PRODUCT OR THE CARRYING OUT OF ANY PROCEDURE OR PROCESS. THE WRITERS, EDITORS, AND PUBLISHERS OF THIS ARTICLE ACCEPT NO RESPONSIBILITY FOR ANY LIABILITY, INJURIES OR DAMAGES ARISING OUT OF ANY PERSON’S ATTEMPT TO RELY UPON ANY INFORMATION CONTAINED HEREIN.
.223/5.56 Penetration Tests vs.
.40 S&W and 12 ga. Slug
Overview
The research on the penetration of .223 ammunition has been completed. In an effort to make research more meaningful, testing consisted of handgun and shotgun ammunition in the same testing medium. The final results were that the .223 demonstrated less penetration capability than the 12 gauge slug and the .40S&W [handgun round].
Testing Medium
Type 250A Ordnance Gelatin was cast into blocks, 6"x6"x16". The process used is that which is recommended by Col. M. Fackler, Director of the US Army Wound Ballistics Laboratory. This is a 10% mixture, 1Kg of gelatin to 9000ml of H2O. This type of gelatin accurately simulates human body tissue in terms of bullet penetration.
A small piece of wall was constructed to duplicate the standard exterior walls found in [the Pacific Northwest] area. This piece of wall was sheeted with ½" wafer board, covered with a 2nd piece of ½" wafer board to simulate siding. This wall was built using a 2x4 frame and finished on the inside with ½" sheet rock. The interior [of the wall] was lined with fiberglass insulation.
Weapons Used
CAR-15, cal .223 Rem./5.56x45mm with a 16" barrel.
Glock M22, cal .40S&W.
Remington 870, 12 ga.
Ammunition Used
Federal .223 Remington, 55 grain HP.
Winchester .40S&W, 180 grain HP.
Federal 12 ga., 2 ¾", rifled slug.
Procedure
All rounds were fired from a distance of 12 feet. After each round was fired, its penetration was recorded and bullet performance noted. After a bullet was fired into the [bare] gelatin, another bullet of the same type was fired through the section of wall and into the gelatin. This was done in order to determine its penetration potential in the event a stray round were to hit the wall of a building.
Results
Caliber Testing medium Penetration Condition of bullet
.223 Rem. gelatin only 9.5" two pieces
.223 Rem. wall & gelatin 5.5" * fragmented
.40S&W gelatin only 13.5" mushroomed
.40S&W wall & gelatin 22" * no deformation
.40S&W wall & gelatin 22" * no deformation
.40S&Wâ€* wall & gelatin 19.5" * slight deformation
12 ga. wall & gelatin 27.5" mushroomed
* these measurements do not include penetration of the 6" wall.
â€* CCI Gold Dot.
Summary
The 55 grain HP .223 has less penetration than any of the other ammunition tested. Based on the results of this testing, there appears to be no basis for concern regarding the overpenetration of the .223 [HP] round. In fact, it seems even safer in this regard than .40 S&W handgun ammunition.
The hollow point cavity in the .40S&W round filled with material when shot through the wall. This caused [these bullets] to fail to expand when they entered the gelatin. As a result, they penetrated 8.5" farther than when shot directly into the gelatin.
When the .223 [HP] was shot through he wall it began to fragment and as a result penetrated the gelatin only 5.5".
Because the .223 [HP] begins to break up on impact, it has less potential for damage or injury than the 12 ga. in the event of a ricochet. The .223 [HP] is obviously safer in an urban environment than the 12 ga. with slugs or buckshot.
Additional testing conducted proved that the .223 would penetrate a car door or glass. The .223 rounds fired into windshields began to break up after entering the glass and did not retain much energy. In most cases these rounds split in two.





ALL OF THE INFORMATION IN THIS ARTICLE IS BASED UPON THE PERSONAL EXPERIENCE OF INDIVIDUALS WHO MAY BE USING SPECIAL TOOLS, PRODUCTS, EQUIPMENT AND COMPONENTS UNDER PARTICULAR CONDITIONS AND CIRCUMSTANCES, SOME OR ALL OF WHICH MAY NOT BE REPORTED, NOR OTHERWISE VERIFIED IN THIS ARTICLE. NOTHING HEREIN IS INTENDED TO CONSTITUTE A MANUAL FOR THE USE OF ANY PRODUCT OR THE CARRYING OUT OF ANY PROCEDURE OR PROCESS. THE WRITERS, EDITORS, AND PUBLISHERS OF THIS ARTICLE ACCEPT NO RESPONSIBILITY FOR ANY LIABILITY, INJURIES OR DAMAGES ARISING OUT OF ANY PERSON’S ATTEMPT TO RELY UPON ANY INFORMATION CONTAINED HEREIN.

[seeker_two]

Quote:
If you want a cheap gun with no accessories, get a 223-cal SKS

I'd love a 223-cal SKS - where do I find one?

Me too. I'll trade you my three-dollar bill collection for one... :D

[DougCxx]

EAA was listing one of their Saiga guns in 223.
Remington bought out the import rights to some of EAA's guns and will sell those in the US under the Spartan brand name, and it is not yet known what fate awaits the others.
~

[RWMC]

Whatever you buy, don't buy a Romanian WASR - 10. I have had nothing but trouble with mine. It will not fire a complete 30 rd. mag. without jamming at least once or twice, consistantly! These were originally 10 shot single stack Ak type weapons that have been converted to accept hi-capacity mags. Century made them more appealing by adding the bayonet lug and muzzle break. That did NOTHING to make them function proper. Buy an AK that was designed to use hi-cap mags, NOT the altered piece of junk WASR-10!

[beerslurpy]

My milled receiver bulgarian AK47 is capable of at least as much accuracy as your average AR15. I paid about 550 for it. Hitting stuff beyond 300 yards is iffy. Hitting stuff with an AR15 at longer ranges is more likely, but you are less likely to inflict a serious wound. For real long range utility, I would recommend a FAL or somethign similar in 308. It wont be a "super fast rapid fire" type gun due to the recoil, but it will be incredibly effective to take aimed shots with. Assuming you can get an accurate gun that was well assembled, you should be able to reach out and touch stuff to 800 yards with such a rifle.

In summation:
If 300 yards is enough, I would go with one of the nicer AKs in 7.62x39. There will be much worse bullet drop than the M16, but it doesnt get really bad till like 350 yards.
If you need more reach, get a FAL/CETME/G3 in 308 or 3006. A dragunov or saigunov wouldnt be bad either. In any case, I dont have much faith in the assault rifle rounds to do real long range work- you need a real caliber. The 308 saigas, if they can be fitted to work with FAL mags would be a great battle rifle. Reliability of an AK with the meaty round of the FAL.

edit: this is seriously for self defense? Just get a saiga 12 gauge with a few extra mags. It will kill stuff out to 30 yards and be useful against rabid animals, clays, birds, etc. It goes through drywall, but much less than everythign else. Just avoid using slugs (penetrate more than anything else) and larger size buckshot if you are sensitive about overpenetration.

if you absolutely must have a rifle, I would recommend AK47 with ulyanovsk hollow points, since they are the only ones I know expand. Anythign else will penetrate too much.

[itgoesboom]

Doug,

Saigas aren't the same as the SKS. Saigas are based on the AK-47 design, infact it is an AK. The SKS is different. Also, the SKS is available only in 7.62x39.

I.G.B.

[dfaugh]

Quick to load (stripper clips), enough power, and while it might not shoot MOA groups I'm pretty sure I can hit a man-sized target consistently at 200 yards. And, it's equally effective at 0 yards, with the bayonet fixed, if it comes to that.

[foghornl]

And, it's equally effective at 0 yards, with the bayonet fixed, if it comes to that. I always thought that having the bayo extended/fixed, etc would give ya a chance fend off 1 or 2 guys while ya reloaded.. :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:

[benEzra]

Armalite AR-180B is also a good option if you want something cheaper than an AR-15.

My mini-14 Ranch Rifle groups into 5.5" at 100 yards from a bench, starting from a cold barrel.

[Gunnutz13]

...I have a few of the above mentioned rifles...a 30.06 M1 Garand (1944), a Remington 700 BDL in 7mm Rem Mag, a Mossberg 500 for home defense, and an Olympic Arms AR15 M4 in .223. All you need to do is determine what your application need is...I've taken a few deer with the Remmy, went hunting with the Garand once, didn't see a deer all weekend...and can easily hit what I aim at within 100 yards with the M4... Hope I never need to use the Mossberg for home defense...but it's a warm and fuzzy feelin' knowing it's there... :evil: