Need some help here guys

[Peetmoss]

Can you guys take a look at this target and give me some pointers as to why my first shot is always pretty good but every shot after that the rest of the day well sucks. The target is an Outers 25yrd slow fire pistol it was at 12yrds. The gun used was a G19 with fixed sights. Ammo was Winchester white box 115gr jacketed bullet.

It looks like I am flinching but can't understand if that is the case why not on the first round.
http://home.twcny.rr.com/peetmoos/target.jpg

[forquidder]

It looks to me as if your pistol is grouping just fine: low and left.
Many semi automatics will shoot the first (hand racked)shot away from the gouping of the rest of the shots (recoil racked) because hand racking of the slide is different from recoil racking the slide causing the slide barrel lockup to end up in a slightly different alignment. Many authors in gun magazines speak of this phenomenon and will actually throw out the first shot when measuring their group size.

[Al Thompson]

I take it that the first round is in the nine ring at 7 o'clock? If so, I think you have a gun that has a bad case of "first rounditius". This means that the first round hits significantly away from the rest.

Your actual group is where the majority of the shots hit. I'd try another brand of ammo (social load, for instance) and see what happens.

Anybody else have another view?

[Peetmoss]

I guess the racking of the slide makes some sense. Yes the first shot was the shot in the 9ring. My big problem is I was aiming for the bullsye. Ended up low and to the left on all but the hand racked shot.

It has done this with the Winnie White box 147jhp's and Fedral Hydra Shocks. It must be me.

[10-Ring]

Try having a buddy randomly loading a snap cap in a mag & see if you really do have a flinch. If so, it becomes a matter of eliminating that flinch. I found alot of dry fire practice & properly developing your muscle memory the best remedy. Good luck ;)

[Greg L]

Claim that your sights are off and you got lucky with a flyer. :D ;)

Greg

[Old Fuff]

If you are right handed, and if this situation is consistant I think you may be letting your finger slide through the trigger guard after the first shot and then your finger pushes on the side of the frame thereby sending the shots left-low/left.

Try dry-firing and carefully watch to see if the front sight moves to the left as you pull the trigger. While doing this drill focus your eye(s) on the front sight and ignore the target.

This problem can come up with any handgun, but many people have particular trouble with pistols that have double-column magazines.

[Hawkeye755]

You could also be jerking the trigger. I know when I do rapid fire drills I have to watch myself or else all of my rounds do the same thing, go low and left.

[TallPine]

The simplest solution is just to move your target down and to the left a little - that way most of your shots will be near the bulls eye.

:D

[Peetmoss]

I think I will go the snap cap route. Along with a buddy and a vid camera. I know I flinch with my44mag so I could be doing the same thing with the 9mm. But If anyone asks that hasn't seen this thread I think I will take Greg L's advice It's the sights and I got lucky with a flyer:D

[boing]

...my first shot is always pretty good but every shot after that the rest of the day well sucks.

If it was an in-battery related condition, then the first shot out of every magazine would be on target. From the quote, it sounds like the first shot of the day is good, and all the rest are going low-left, including the first shots from subsequent magazines...?

If that's correct, then I'd say it's flinching. The first shot is good because you haven't been reminded of the recoil response yet. As soon as you fire the first shot, you "remember" your flinch.

Happens to me. too.

[sanchezero]

Ya, its a flinch. Probably THE classic right handed trigger jerk.

You're first shot is good b/c you haven't yet been 'punished' by the recoil/noise.

Lots of slow dry fire. Focus on isolating your finger so that only it moves. Watch your sights carefully for any movement and try to keep them absolutely still.

When your sights are consistently on target, speed up your trigger pulls a bit.

Repeat.

I had this same problem. Still do on occasion.

:)

[sctman800]

I saved an article from a AMERICAN RIFLEMAN MAGAZINE from last fall, it had a chart giving probable cause of the problem from where your shots group. Acording to the chart jerking the trigger is the probable cause, altho it doesn't give any clue about the first shot being different. HTH Jim.

[Hal]

I'd say it's a combo of flinching and taking your eyes off the front sight and looking at the target.

[sm]

All good advice and suggestions. Somewhere there is a link that "reads your shots". Someone will post.

G19
Ok personally Glocks and I don't get along.I shot a target almost your twin there. I'm right handed, Gunsmith/buddy had me move my right foot forward a bit- my group centered ...10 rds inside the 9 from 15 yds. Try the foot thingee.

Weird, I can take my Ketec P-11 and all 11 in the 10X from that distance. I must have made Gaston mad somewhere along the way...his guns don't like me...don't fit me...another reason I harp on gun fit I guess...

[Al Thompson]

I'm not ready to call it a flinch yet. I agree with boing - is this the first shot of the day or first shot per magazine? That answer wiill give us more info.

It's not that unusual for a fixed sight pistol to have POA/POI problems.


I think Hal is right too - need some more emphasis on that front sight. :)

[blades67]

Stop slapping the trigger and keep your eyes open and focused.

[New_comer]

Use this:

http://www.sportshooter.com/improving/images/correction_chart.gif

[NoBite]

Grouping low left could mean you are gripping with your third and fourth fingers as you squeeze the trigger. Your grip should be primarily with your middle finger. Squeezing with your third and fourth finger while pressing the trigger will move the barrel low and left. Try practicing by actually aiming while holding the pistol with only your middle finger. Take your third and fourth finger off the pistol. You won't be able to grip with those fingers and your shots should come back toward the center. This is also a good drill to prove to yourself that the pistol will return back to on target after a shot without you trying to force it to do so with an iron grip!

[Peetmoss]

Wow guys lots of info here. Thanks. I think it's only my first shot of the day. However usually the first shot of the day is loaded diffrent. The round in the pipe when the day of shooting starts is brought of the top of the mag with the slide gently closed on it. Every other mag is loaded by dropping the slide.

It could also be a grip change or my finger changing position on the trigger.

I am going to save this thread and check into all of the possibilities. Thanks guys

[TarpleyG]

I had the same problem with a 1911 last year. I was at the range one day and met a guy putting holes into 1" Shoot_N_Cs at 25 yards with a Browning HP. I was pretty sure it was the gun and not me so I asked this guy to take a look. Sure enough, he fired two rounds and said he'd seen enough, follow me, and he proceeded to file my front site down until I could shoot level with the bullseye but still left. Later that day when I got home, I whacked the rear site over a tad to the right and now I am all set, shooting in the 10-ring.

My advice, have someone else shoot your gun and look for a pattern. Better yet, if you can find a Ransom rest somewhere to use.

GT

[Al Thompson]

"The round in the pipe when the day of shooting starts is brought of the top of the mag with the slide gently closed on it. Every other mag is loaded by dropping the slide."

Insert magazine, tug slide back with off hand to drop the slide lock and let it slam home. Easing down the slide can lead to trouble.

I *think* this is your problem. Looks like the POA/POI means you need too adjust your sights. I'd still like to see a tighter group - watch that front sight.

[Peetmoss]

You do have a point. I should let the slide slam home to load a round in the pipe. And I do this at the range. However I am a little nervous about doing that in my apartment. I can't help but think that I might have a firing pin problem on time and have a slam fire in my apartment. It's unreasonable but I am still kinda new at handguns and trying to work through that one.

[Mal H]

Peetmoss, I understand your trepidation about loading the chamber in an apartment, but on the other hand you really should load it like the pistol would do for itself as Al suggested. So to get around the very, very slim chance of an AD (and that would be an AD as opposed to an ND) go to your local lumber warehouse (Home Depot, Lowes, etc.) and buy an 8x8 that is at least 1 foot long. Keep it near the location where you load your pistol and when you let the slide fly always point it at the end of the 8x8. If you get really unlucky one of these days and it goes off, at least the bullet won't go very far. If the neighbors ask, "did you hear that loud noise?", the proper answer is always, "Uh uh, what noise?"

I've had one of those 8x8's I described for many years and it has zero holes in it, but I never fail to use it because if I don't, I know that will be the time the pistol decides to fail.

[Peetmoss]

Yes an 8x8 would solve the problem of a accidental discharge hiting someone. But I really don't have that problem I live on the first floor and the gun is pointed at an approximent 60 degree angle torwards the ground and an exterior wall when it is being loaded. My problem is the fear of having to explain to the officer why there was what sounded like a gun shot in my apartment. I know that once the gun is loaded it will not fire until I pull the trigger just can't get over the loading part when at home. On the range no fear at all. Because if it did fire it would be down range and all would be ok no police no nothing except me and my gun on the way to the gunsmith. I guess I still am affraid of guns. :mad: But I am working on it.

It does kinda suck though I love my guns, but yet I am scared of them also kinda wierd.

[redbone]

When I have groups like that, my self diaganosis is that I'm careful to slowly pull the trigger on the first shot, then get into a mode of "jerking the trigger" as soon as the sights are realigned. This causes the aim to go down and left. My solution is to:

1. Think about what I'm doing and slow down, and
2. Squeeze a bit harder with my weak hand (assuming a two-handed grip) to counteract the down and left motion. I don't mean to say that I tyry to push up and right or anything, just that I've found that a firmer grip helps control the group location.

I first blamed the sights, but soon found that the adjustible sight models didn't adjust enough to compensate, and I realized that every pistol in the safe (including the fixed sight models) couldn't be sighted incorrectly.

About grip force: an instructor once told me to grip that pistol as if someone were trying to take it away from me. That helped a lot. I try to mostly squeeze front to back with the strong hand (kind of a "crushing" grip, only not that hard) and left to right with the weak hand (like a clam shell).

Good luck!

RBH

[BobK]

I used to have the same problem. Your trigger pull is the culprit.
You have to concentrate on isolating your trigger finger from the rest of your hand that is gripping the gun. You are squeezing
with the other fingers. The trigger pull should be smooth and
straight back. Isolate that trigger finger!!!!
If you shoot with two hands, create a little isometric tension
by pulling backward with your left (offside) hand, while pushing the gun forward with your right (gun) hand. This makes a more stable position to shoot from. Bob