[Spot77]

The big gun bills are scheduled in the house on March 9th.

Gun Bill Day....here it comes....take the day off NOW!

WEDNESDAY MARCH 9, 2005

HB 38 Del Sophocleus, Criminal Law - Use of Firearm in Commission of
et al Crime
ADDED - MAR 9, 2005 1:00 PM

HB 179 Del Cadden, et Pub Saf - Rpl of Proc for the Collection &
Rptg of
al Hndgn Shell Casing Info - Prsnlzd Hndgn Tech
Rpt
ADDED - MAR 9, 2005 1:00 PM

HB 278 Del Niemann, et Gun Shops - Security Requirements for
Regulated
al Firearms
ADDED - MAR 9, 2005 1:00 PM

HB 527 Del Miller, et Public Safety - Transporting Sporting Firearms
ADDED - MAR 9, 2005 1:00 PM

HB 662 Del Quinter, et Armed Criminal Lockup Act
ADDED - MAR 9, 2005 1:00 PM

HB 762 Dels McMillan & Possession of Regulated Firearms - Convicted
Quinter Felons
ADDED - MAR 9, 2005 1:00 PM

HB 803 Del Dumais, et Police Officer Protection Act of 2005
ADDED - MAR 9, 2005 1:00 PM

HB 948 Del Quinter, et Maryland Assault Weapons Ban of 2005
ADDED - MAR 9, 2005 1:00 PM

HB 1159 Del Kelley, et Criminal Law - Death Penalty - Repeal
ADDED - MAR 9, 2005 1:00 PM

HB 1161 Del Kelley, et Death Penalty - Maryland Commission on Capital
al Punishment
ADDED - MAR 9, 2005 1:00 PM

HB 1170 Del Quinter, et Serial Murder Death Penalty Act
ADDED - MAR 9, 2005 1:00 PM

HB 1211 Del Dwyer, et Citizens' Protection Act of 2005
ADDED - MAR 9, 2005 1:00 PM

There's FIVE bills there that concern us. The AWB, CCW, Ballistic Fingerprinting repeal, transportation of a sporting firearm (Maybe we can stop for a drink of water now!), and the security requirements (I think that requires more stringent rules on how gunshops store their firearms) I'll have to read up on that one.

Time to really let those letters fly. Remember, an email is good, a snailmail letter is better, a phone call to your delegate is great, and a personal visit to your delegate is best.

If you send emails, try to send the same letter via USPS on nice stationary.

[Greg M]

You're on top of things Spot77! Thanks for your efforts :) .

[Spot77]

I try to be, but most of the time I'm just passing along what somebody sent me!

[Austin Charles]

Yes, but you are doing a good job. I also saw your note on Yahoo

Thanks Erik

[Spot77]

Here's a link to Jim Purtilo's site. It has a pretty good definition of the bills being heard this session, and I agree with most of the stances on each bill.


http://www.myguns.net/Articles/bills05.htm

[Harry Tuttle]

also keep an eye on Head Piker, Phil Lee's MCRKBA pages:
http://www.mcrkba.org/GunBills.html

[Girlwithagun]

Gun Day is coming up soon. If you haven't already, PLEASE contact your legislators and tell them you are in favor of HB 1211. We need to let them know where we stand. They are starting to realize that we are serious about this but some still need to be convinced.
See ya on March 9th!

[Norton]

Letters sent.....also be sure to send one to Delegate Valerio...he's the chair of the committee.

[Greg M]

You're right Norton, it doesn't matter who will vote for the bill if Chairman Vallario doesn't let the bill see the light of day. Here's his contact info:

Chairman of the House Judiciary Committee (District 27A):

The Honorable Joseph F. Vallario, Jr.
121 Lowe House Office Building
6 Bladen Street
Annapolis, MD 21401-1991

410-841-3488
301-858-3488
1-800-492-7122, Ext. 3488

Greg

[Cool Hand Luke 22:36]

Good luck to you Marylanders.

Is there anything we folks here in NOVA can do to help?

BTW- someone on THR was talking a while back about starting up a Maryland Citizens Defense League, modeled after the VCDL. Did that ever get started or is that now Maryland Shall Issue?

[Greg M]

Cool Hand Luke 22:36, there is a Maryland Citizens Defense League, www.mcdl.org (http://www.mcdl.org/) and I know they are still active because I saw a guy with an MCDL sticker at a recent committee hearing. However, with regard to the right to carry issue, Maryland Shall Issue, www.marylandshallissue.org (http://www.marylandshallissue.org/) , has definitely picked up the ball and is leading the fight. The established groups seemed to be afraid of stepping on toes and MSI has motivated a lot of people to action by moving forward with what's right. Uh-oh... I sense a tongue lashing coming on :uhoh: -- That's an inside joke for the Marylanders :D

BTW - any Marylanders in Districts 32, 33A or 33B who want to be district coordinators -- please volunteer. The job isn't too hard -- I'm enjoying it :) .

Greg

[moa]

I sent e-mails to every member of the House Judiciary conmmittee except Vallerio and Kelly who have no e-mail addresses listed in the MD legislative directory. I sent them faxes instead.

I also sent e-mails to the members of the Senate Judicial proceedings committee. In all mailings I sent a list of firearms related bills I oppose or support based on MYGUNS list.

A staffer from Sen. Frosh (chairman of the Judicial committee) actually and quickly responded with about the dumbest answer imaginable. He asked me what the bills were all about. DUH!!!

[moa]

Well, I got an e-mail from Del. Carol Petzold asking the same thing as State Sen. Frosh's staffer, e.g., what are the bills all about? Petzold is on the Judiciary committee and has no idea what the bills are about that are scheduled for hearing March 9?

Man, it is no wonder Maryland is so screwed up.

[Greg M]

Massad Ayoob is going to testify for the right-to-carry bill (HB 1211) on March 9th!!! :what: Now if this isn't reason enough to show up, I don't know what is!

Greg

[Spot77]

And let it be known that he is NOT charging any fee to be here.

We are paying for his expenses - airfare and hotel.

Thanks to everybody who donated to help cover the costs.

[Greg M]

On the one hand it's exciting to think about all the gun-rights activists coming together this Wednesday. It might just make Leah pee in her panties :neener: . I wonder if Sarah will be there again this year :barf: .

On the other hand, it's downright scary to think about how easily the legislation will pass if we don't keep up the pressure and have a good turn-out.

Greg

[moa]

What time do the hearings start, and were at on March 9?

[Greg M]

Here's some info courtesy of Henry at Maryland Shall Issue (http://www.marylandshallissue.org) :

LOCATION: Annapolis, MD. Judiciary Hearings are usually held in the
Lowe House Office Bldg. 84 College Ave. However, as we may have an
unusually large crowd they may move it across the street to the
Legislative Services Bldg. There is a map of the state government
buildings available on Phil Lee's MCRKBA site. There is a link to it
on the bottom of the green shaded section on the MSI site Current
Action page:
http://www.marylandshallissue.org/curact.html

DIRECTIONS: Rt. 97 to Rt. 50, take the Rowe Blvd. exit, take the 2nd
right (Taylor) and park in the GOLD lot at the Stadium. Free trollies
run every 10 minutes from the Stadium Parking lot to the government
buildings. You want to get off at "Lawyer's Mall" which is the first
stop after you've circled St. Andrew's (?) church.

TIME: Wednesday March 9th. The hearings start at 1 PM, but there will
be 13 bills heard, and they may be heard in any order. The order may
change as the hearings progress. If you want to hear HB 1211 be
prepared to stay until 8 PM. However, any part of the day that you can
be there will be a huge help. Don't think that because you can't stay
all day your presence won't count. It will count.

DRESS: Think business attire. A jacket and tie for guys is appropriate.
Anything neat and clean is acceptable. Do not bring any pocket knives,
nail clippers, etc. They won't hold your knives for you. Also be sure
to have a photo ID handy. They didn't allow us to wear our blue MSI
baseball caps in the hearing room for the Senate hearing, but they are
good to wear outside the hearing room. There will be GUNOWNERS VOTE
and MSI stickers and buttons available there that you can wear in the
hearing room.

TESTIFYING: Anyone wishing to testify on any bill must sign the witness
register before the hearings begin. If you have written testimony,
please submit 35 copies to the committee clerk for distribution
at least 60 minutes before the bill hearings begin. The order
that bills are listed on the schedule is not necessarily the
order in which they will be heard.
http://mlis.state.md.us/2005rs/hearsch/0303_jud_1501.htm

Frankly, with 13 bills to be heard in 6 hours or less that means about
a half hour per bill. With the sponsor of the bill maybe taking 10
minutes... at 3 minutes each there will be time for maybe 7 people to
testify. In other words, the chances of your being able to testify
seem slim. If you have something important to say it may be best to
bring written testimony and keep your oral testimony to a minute or
less.... and sign in early!

The Witness sign-in sheets should be available by about 9 AM. Sign-in
on the proper sheet (right Bill # and For or Against depending on your
position). Signing-in on the Witness sheet is a way of registering
your concerns especially if you cannot stay and testify. Check
http://mlis.state.md.us/2005rs/hearsch/0303_jud_1501.htm to see what
bills you want to weigh in on. I recommend opposing HB 948 and HB 803;
and Supporting HB 1211, HB 533, & HB 756

OBSERVING: They would not allow anyone to stand in the back of the room
in the Senate hearings a couple weeks ago, however there was room in
the hallway outside the room, and sound system speakers carried the
sound of the hearing to the hallway. So if you want a seat you may
have to get in early.... but you will be able to following the hearings
from the hallway if you don't get a seat. Massad Ayoob will be there
to testify no doubt will be very effective.

FOOD: There is a cafeteria in the Legislative Services building. I
believe it is on the Ground floor.

[moa]

Greg M, thank you.

[JeepDriver]

What time are people getting there Wensday?

I was thinking about waiting until rush hour is over (after 9:30) then heading down.

[nico]

I really wish I could go, but I have an exam on Thursday :barf:. My letters (and my girlfriend's letters) were sent though.

[Spot77]

Jeep, I'll probably be there extra early cuz' I have some last minute lobbying to do. There's a few fence sitters in the House that just MIGHT vote for the ccw bill.

If our ccw bill gets out of commitee, I'll NEVER badmouth the Maryland Democratic Party as a whole again. :uhoh:


I think you'll be fine if you come down after the morning rush.

[Norton]

I'll be cutting it close to get there by 1pm.....have to take an exam for my night class. It's one of those deals where it's in the college testing center and you just have to do it some time that day. Since we'll be there all evening for the hearings, I have to go take mine in the morning :(

[Greg M]

I had the opportunity to talk to Del. McMillian last night and I want to assure everyone that while he did not co-sponsor HB1211, he is pro gun-rights and deserves our support. He indicated that he's been receiving letters asking why he doesn't support gun-rights so I let him know that as far as Maryland Shall Issue (http://www.marylandshallissue.org) is concerned, we know that he's one of us.

See you guys tomorrow!!

[Girlwithagun]

Tomorrow's the big day! I prepared written testimony but I am going to testify in person too. Hope to see you all there!

[P95Carry]

My friends - the very best of luck - I am watching on the sidelines but with you in spirit. :)

[DelayedReaction]

I'll be there. Look for the dude who's 6'9" and answers to Kevin. :D

[jrhines]

The elder Rhines and Funger will be there, looking forward to it.

[DelayedReaction]

Assuming this makes it out of committee, what is the next step (and what are our chances)?

[Norton]

I'll be there. Look for the dude who's 6'9" and answers to Kevin.


as opposed to me, the 6'7" dude who answers to "hey you".....

If the hearings drag on too long, we can always get the THR basketball team started......

[Spot77]

Ugh, no basketball for me. Still aching from the flu.


...And they made a movie about me and basketball some years ago.....called something like, "Angry Gun Owners Can't Jump" or something......


See you all in a while. Pack a snack - it'll be a long day.

[nico]

Any updates.

I'm affraid from the lack of triumphant posts in this thread that it didn't go well :confused:

[P95Carry]

Wondering also!!

[Spot77]

10:45 and I JUST GOT HOME. The people travelling from the far reaches of the state won't get home till' after midnight.


It went WELL.

The transport bill looks like it'll pass with no problems.

The CCW bill went very well with NO opposition from the Gun Ban crowd.

Massad Ayoob testified for us and I think he made an impact.

My personal feeling is that the AWB is DEAD. Chairman Vallario was scolding the bill's sponsor about something - I couldn't hear what it was about, but Del Quinter (The AWB sponsor) did NOT look happy after that. We have a majority on the Senate JPR that SHOULD prevent an AWB from getting out for a full vote.

We had a crowd of at least 150 gunnies there. I tried to count, but that was the best I could do.

There MAY have been close to 10 anti's there. And they used the same tired lies as last year. Delegat Smiegel JUMPED ALL IN THEIR CRAP when they tried the "But the FBI says 1 in 5 cops are murdered with assault weapons" lie.


Norton and I spent almost 10 hours there today, along with DelayedReaction, MikeK, Girlwithagun, Cliff, Greg M, and a few other THR members that I probably missed.

More tomorrow, after a good night's sleep!

[Greg M]

I think it went well :). I got home at 10:00 p.m. and I live 15 minutes away. I grabbed some dinner and I guess I'm the first (ok, second because Spot77 types faster) one to report. It was a LONG day. Vallario was good about giving people time to talk. It helped that a lot of people kept their comments short. Neil Quinter made a fool of himself by quoting the 1 in 5 lie. He was busted on that big-time by Delegates Smiegle and McMillian. Leah was there looking especially ugly (ok, I guess I should refrain from the personal attacks :evil: ). I had a seat so someone else will need to report on how many people were in the hall. It sounded like a big crowd out there. There was a lot of good testimony for right-to-carry. None against, but that might be because people think it has no chance.

[Norton]

Heh, heh....the reason no one has posted is because they aren't home yet. I live in Annapolis and just got home at 10:30pm (stopped for a quick drink with Spot77).

My estimation is that we hit ball out of the park on all accounts.

Predictions:

AWB will die a painful death. Neil Quinter was embarrassed like 'lil Rob Garagiola a few weeks ago. We shut him down, some of the Delegates shut him down and his Ceasefire MD cronies left him out to dry. The Gail Gunn creature put up a tepid testimony as did the VPC robot. The Maryland State Police came out in opposition (once again) to the bill saying that it would not affect crime.

CCW Bill: Will at least get a vote in the committee and MAY get out of committee for a floor vote. This would be a major victory in and of itself.

Transport Bill: Will pass and we will gain the ability to stop and take a leak while transporting our firearms.

There were NO individuals there to speak on behalf of the anti positions and I pointed that out each of the three times I testified. Everyone who spoke on their behalf was a police officer (the government) or a paid anti-gun lobbyist. The Gail Gunn creature spewed forth that 70% of Marylanders favored the AWB. When I got up to speak, I asked where they were......the only people in the room were those who were pro-gun.

Chairman Vallerio was unbelievably patient and fair today. He is not pro gun but he is at least equitable. After watching him tell Quinter to go sit down, I suspect the whole reason that he drug the whole day out was to punish Quinter for bringing in yet another loser bill.

We done good today folks!

[MDHunter]

Spot et al,

GREAT JOB!!! I'm on travel and have been impatiently wondering all day how things went.....

My gratitude to all of you who made it to Annapolis, and those of us unable to be there owe you a debt of gratitude.

Look forward to more details after all of you get some well-deserved rest!

Michael

[P95Carry]

Guys - KUDOS ... and my profound salutes to you. What a long and I'd guess darned tiring day. I am proud of you all.
The CCW bill went very well with NO opposition from the Gun Ban crowd.Scott - Outstanding! :)

And the AWB seeming pretty limp - also great.

I just gotta say it again - so damn proud of you all.

[nico]

I just want to thank you folks for pulling the weight for those of us who couldn't make it (and the people who don't care but would still take advantage of the laws you're pushing for). I promise if I ever get out of school, I'll do everything I can to help and until then I'll write as many letters as I can type.

Any news on the ballistic fingerprinting bill?

btw, what's the deal with Purtillo not including HB1211 in the Tripwire Alert he posted today? Is there some infighting going on between him and MSI or something? I thought it was awesome when I found out that a professor at UM was one of the main pro-gun activists in the state, but based on the info on his site, it seems like he's more concerned with maintaining the status quo than making any progress. If somebody wouldn't mind cluing me in but doesn't want to be seen as mudslinging, could you pm me? (or should I start a new thread to discuss this?)

[Greg M]

Purtillo thinks that pushing a concealed carry bill will give the anti-gunners a vehicle for an AWB (he thinks the bill will be amended into something totally different than how it started). Some people suggest that he might be jealous that a new group of activists is stealing his thunder. He does a lot of good work and he has a HUGE mailing list. BTW, I don't think I saw him there today. Oh well.

[Cliff]

When Gail Gunn was speaking against the ballistic fingerprinting bill, her voice became shrill while trying to make the point that the head of the Maryland State Police had a personal interest in the bill passing. Chairman Vallerio bitchslapped her asap by saying there will be no personal attacks against anybody, just speak for or against the bill. He zeroed in on her while saying that. I should have bet money her asinine little mouth was gonna get her into trouble,I could have bought drinks for everybody. :D

[Norton]

Dr. Purtillo was there for at least the first part of the hearing. I'm not sure as to when he left.

Some of the things between MSI and Tripwire that have been stated by Greg have been a problem in the PAST. I spent a whole day trying to get to the bottom of the issue and writing emails back and forth between all concerned parties. There was the fear that MSI would trade off the AWB for the sake of the CCW bill and that there was deliberate collusion on the part of the MSI leadership to do so.

I came to the conclusion that this was a misunderstanding and told Dr. Purtillo so.

I think that MSI demonstrated their firm opposition to any AWB as they were amongst the most vocal opponents of both the Senate and House versions of the bill.

In the next update to his site, there was at least no negative comments on the CCW bill and, if I recall correctly, a tepid positive report on it. That's about as much a 180 degree shift from where it was as can be.

Tripwire is a vital part of gun rights activism in Maryland and I support them financially, just as I support all gun rights organizations in MD. It is dangerous for us to get split over any one issue. We have been hearing (with much glee) that there is a rift going on in the Ceasefire MR ranks (which may explain their very poor showing yesterday), yet we are in danger of allowing the same thing to happen to us.

Folks, we are on the verge of doing great things here in this state. If we can beat off this AWB again this year and get a clean CCW at least to the floor for a vote we will have done more than anyone thought that we could.

nico,

The IBIS system is dead, I feel comfortable saying that. It is dead in a practical sense because of lack of funding and I think that since even the MSP is asking for it to go away it will go away legislatively as well.

[Gunfyter]

Wow, what WONDERFUL news. I think you guys and girls did an outstanding job and once again did the firearms owners of Maryland proud. I'd have been there but I had nasal surgery last Thursday and yesterday I got the packing and splints removed.We may not get CCW this year, but sooner or later we'll prevail. I'm proud to stand with each and everyone of you.

[Norton]

Today's article on the IBIS system from the Sun:


House weighs ballistics database

State police head testifies to committee on report calling system ineffective

By Anica Butler
Sun Staff
Originally published March 10, 2005

The head of the Maryland State Police testified yesterday that a mandate to collect ballistics information hasn't helped solve crimes, while advocates of the law blamed the state police for its ineffectiveness.

In a hearing before the House Judiciary Committee, Col. Thomas E. "Tim" Hutchins would not say whether he personally supports a bill that would repeal the law. But he testified about a state police report that calls the Integrated Ballistics Identification System, or IBIS, expensive and ineffective.

As a result of that September 2004 report, Del. Joan Cadden, an Anne Arundel Democrat, sponsored a bill that would repeal the law requiring the collection of the ballistics information.

IBIS was created in 2000 to amass a database of ballistic markers by requiring gun manufacturers to test-fire them and submit the cartridge casings to state police. Technicians then make a digital image of the unique markings and enter them into the database for future comparison. The markings often are referred to as "ballistic fingerprints."

Hutchins testified yesterday that 43,729 casings have been entered into IBIS, and the database has been used 208 times. Six "hits" have resulted from those inquiries, but none resulted in criminal prosecutions. In four years, $2.5 million has been spent on IBIS, Hutchins said.

Teresa M. Long, assistant director of the state police forensic sciences division, said flawed information from gun manufacturers also is a problem.

IBIS advocates, however, are opposed to the bill.

"We know that these databases take time to get running," said Joshua Horwitz, executive director of the Educational Fund to Stop Gun Violence.

Horwitz said the problems noted in the state police report can be remedied. Another advocate, Casey Anderson of CeaseFire Maryland, said the state police also should seek permission to link IBIS to the federal ballistics database.

If police agencies could send ballistics information to state police through the federal database -- rather than driving the information to state police headquarters in Pikesville -- more agencies would take advantage of the database, Anderson said.

Robert A. Ricker, a former attorney for the National Rifle Association, said he believes that state police are loath to make the changes necessary for IBIS to work. He pointed to the low number of inquiries as an example.

"If you don't use the system," Ricker said, "it isn't going to work."

The bill had not been scheduled for a vote.

[Greg M]

Some of the things between MSI and Tripwire that have been stated by Greg have been a problem in the PAST. I spent a whole day trying to get to the bottom of the issue...

Thanks for the clarification, Norton. If I had ever believed that MSI would intentionally trade an AWB for CCW, I wouldn't have gotten active with the group. That is a real misunderstanding.

I think IBIS will definitly be killed because without funding, the MSP are currently "non-compliant" with the law. If I remember right (I could look it up, but I'm still waking up) IBIS was one of Cease Fire MD's top two priorities :neener: .

I promise if I ever get out of school, I'll do everything I can to help and until then I'll write as many letters as I can type.

nico, don't feel bad about "just" writing letters! I felt that I had to get up and say a few words about the right-to-carry bill because I'm a MSI volunteer, but I'm not a good public speaker and I realized yesterday that I can apply my abilities in other ways to help the right-to-carry effort. Other people are good speakers and so it doesn't make sense for me to get up there and waste time fumbling for the right words. There are many different ways that we can help the effort :) .

Greg

[Greg M]

In a hearing before the House Judiciary Committee, Col. Thomas E. "Tim" Hutchins would not say whether he personally supports a bill that would repeal the law.
Wasn't it pretty clear that he was testifying for the repeal of the law or was I delerious from hunger??
Chairman Vallerio bitchslapped her asap by saying there will be no personal attacks against anybody, just speak for or against the bill.
And the funny thing was that he allowed our people to bust on Quinter :D !

Oh, and one more thing -- that is the last time I cede the front row to the anti-gunners. I tend not to grab a front row seat and then Leah comes in, goes straight to the front and saves as many seats in a row as possible. We need to spread out when we get there so it looks like one big sea of gun-rights people as people fill the seats.

Greg

[Norton]

Wasn't it pretty clear that he was testifying for the repeal of the law or was I delerious from hunger??

I think that the hair that he was splitting was that he was NOT imparting his personal opinion into the debate, but rather was reporting on the findings of the report produced by the MSP.

The MSP is always very careful about adopting a "just the facts, ma'am" attitude when testifying on any of these bills. Hutchins made a point of saying that he was only there to support the recommendations of the legislative oversight committee which has advocated the elimination of IBIS.

[Norton]

Something that just occured to me (actually it was last night when Spot77 and I were leaving Galway Bay):

Does anyone have a hypothesis as to why Ceasefire MD and VPC made such a poor showing yesterday?

Leah was uncharacteristically brief and sedate in her remarks, as was Josh Horowitiz. Leah didn't even dress for the day......if I were on the Board of Directors and paying her $32k annual salary, I would demand that she present a professional demeanor/dress when representing that organization.

I hope that this is just a sign of their concession that they are not going to win anything this year rather than it being a sign that they are convinced that they have things sewed up.

[Ohen Cepel]

Thanks to all of you who were there to fight the good fight!!

[Greg M]

Leah didn't even dress for the day......
Yeah what color were those God-awful jeans, anyway :barf: ???

I hope that this is just a sign of their concession that they are not going to win anything this year rather than it being a sign that they are convinced that they have things sewed up.
Geez, I hope it's not because they're so confident it will pass :uhoh: .

[jrhines]

Scott and I had to pull out around 5 pm, but kept our MSI and "MD Gunowners Vote" buttons visable 'till then. One bystander asked what bill was under discussion that we were fighting against. I said, to his suprise, that several of the items were things we supported. I explained the CCW and IBIS issues and he seemed delighted that these were being pushed forward and wished us well.
To bad that more folks could not get into the hearing room. Both Scott and I signed the testimony sheets for CCW, transport and IBIS repeal and against the AWB. It was time well spent.

[Austin Charles]

Hey, stop pounding on the ever so arrogant Gail Gunn. :D

I love this women, I would hate for her Board of Directors to get wind of how old and wore out she looked, and how rude and arrogant she is to everyone she comes into contact with. This lady is Great for our cause, she does more good for us than harm :evil:

All in all we did good yesterday, It was a LONG day. I would have loved to see more people their to support us but I understand that not everyone can take the time off work to attend.

And thanks to all who do put forth all the effort that they do. We are making great strides towards the gun rights for Maryland.

Thanks again Erik Bischoff

[Spot77]

I had the honor of educating a lady affiliated with Johns Hopkins on the true wrongs of Md's gun laws. She thought Ballistic Fingerprinting and the AWB were good things until I explained why they nothing more than "feel good" legislation.

After hearing testimony about what a boondoggle Ballistic Fingerprinting is, she was PISSED. She was asking me how dumb laws like that get passed. I told her it was because it SOUNDED like a good idea, but when it proved unsuccessful in solving even ONE crime, it was time to be repealed. She agreed, and thought her tax dollars could be better spent.

She was also under the impression that the AWB covered machine guns. :confused:

Of all the soapboxing I did yesterday, I think talking to her was the most productive.

[Girlwithagun]

We did good yesterday. The more times they see us and hear what we have to say, the better. Eventually, they will have to listen. Since I couldn't be in the hearing room the whole time because of my kids, I did learn something that I think is also an important reason for being there. I got the chance to talk to alot of people who were curious as to why we were there and I got an overwhelming response of support. There were even a few who seemed against it at the beginning but said that what we were doing makes sense. These are people who were unaware of our fight and now are at least aware that we are out there.

Unfortunately, I am not a public speaker- I freeze up and my voice gets all shaky so I am glad that before my oral testimony, the delegates also had written testimony and most had heard from me before anyway. I hope it wasn't too painfully obvious that when I got up there, my mind went blank and I forgot what I was going to say. Something to work on I guess.

Thank you to all who showed up and also to those who called, wrote letters, stopped by, prayed, meditated, whatever helps our cause.

[molonlabe]

I wonder if she was affiliated with this link.

I work in the belly of the beast. It is unfortunate that an esteemed research organization like Johns Hopkins affiliates itself with junk science and political agendas such as this.

We really do some wonderful research.


http://www.jhsph.edu/gunpolicy/index.html

Thanks to all who showed up to fight for my freedom. I too had surgery last week and could not fathom sitting or standing all those hours.

[Spot77]

Sorry I should have mentioned - she was there to testify on a totally unrelated bill - something to do with mental health and time allowed to be committed to an institution.

John, that link made my eyes bleed. :uhoh:

[DelayedReaction]

Wow. That was the first time I've ever done something like that, and it certainly won't be the last. Between experiencing Gail Gunn firsthand, to seeing delegate Quinter act like... delegate Quinter, to that snotty delegate who told us to "stick to statistics" for the sake of impression his girlfriend... wow.

On the positive side, I was extremely impressed by our group. All of our people where very vocal and well-spoken (even you GWAG, don't be so hard on yourself), and I think we might have a chance. For those of you with phones, call the swing voters below. Also, Delegate Menes is extremely anti-gun, but enough phone calls may show her that we mean business.

The vote is only in a few days, so we need to put as much pressure on them as possible!

Contact Info:

PAULINE H. MENES
Democrat, District 21, Anne Arundel & Prince George's County
Lowe House Office Building, Room 210
84 College Ave.
Annapolis, MD 21401 - 1991
(410) 841-3114, (301) 858-3114
1-800-492-7122, ext. 3114 (toll free)
e-mail: pauline_menes@house.state.md.us
fax: (410) 841-3116, (301) 858-3116
3517 Marlbrough Way
College Park, MD 20740 - 3925
(301) 935-6270

JILL P. CARTER
Democrat, District 41, Baltimore City
Lowe House Office Building, Room 317
84 College Ave.
Annapolis, MD 21401 - 1991
(410) 841-3283, (301) 858-3283
1-800-492-7122, ext. 3283 (toll free)
e-mail: jill_carter@house.state.md.us
fax: (410) 841-3244, (301) 858-3244

KATHLEEN M. DUMAIS
Democrat, District 15, Montgomery County
Lowe House Office Building, Room 226
84 College Ave.
Annapolis, MD 21401 - 1991
(410) 841-3052, (301) 858-3052
1-800-492-7122, ext. 3052 (toll free)
e-mail: kathleen_dumais@house.state.md.us
fax: (410) 841-3219, (301) 858-3219

DARRYL A. KELLEY
Democrat, District 26, Prince George's County
Lowe House Office Building, Room 205
84 College Ave.
Annapolis, MD 21401 - 1991
(410) 841-3212, (301) 858-3212
1-800-492-7122, ext. 3212 (toll free)
e-mail: darryl_kelley@house.state.md.us
fax: (410) 841-3078, (301) 858-3078

CAROL STOKER PETZOLD
Democrat, District 19, Montgomery County
Lowe House Office Building, Room 222
84 College Ave.
Annapolis, MD 21401 - 1991
(410) 841-3001, (301) 858-3001
1-800-492-7122, ext. 3001 (toll free)
e-mail: carol_petzold@house.state.md.us
fax: (410) 841-3009, (301) 858-3009
14113 Chadwick Lane
Rockville, MD 20853 - 2103
LUIZ R. S. SIMMONS
Democrat, District 17, Montgomery County
Lowe House Office Building, Room 225
84 College Ave.
Annapolis, MD 21401 - 1991
(410) 841-3037, (301) 858-3037
1-800-492-7122, ext. 3037 (toll free)
e-mail: luiz_simmons@house.state.md.us
fax: (410) 841-3003, (301) 858-3003

THEODORE J. SOPHOCLEUS
Democrat, District 32, Anne Arundel County
Lowe House Office Building, Room 214B
84 College Ave.
Annapolis, MD 21401-1991
(410) 841-3233, (301) 858-3233
1-800-492-7122, ext. 3233 (toll free)
e-mail: ted_sophocleus@house.state.md.us
fax: (410) 841-3235, (301) 858-3235

JOSEPH F. VALLARIO, JR.
Democrat, District 27A, Calvert & Prince George's Counties
Lowe House Office Building, Room 121
84 College Ave.
Annapolis, MD 21401 - 1991
(410) 841-3488, (301) 858-3488
1-800-492-7122, ext. 3488 (toll free)
fax: (410) 841-3850, (301) 858-3850
5210 Auth Road
Suitland, MD 20746
(301) 423-8100

[Greg M]

GWAG, I think that we are much more aware of the the shakiness in our own voice since we're painfully aware of the difference. I just remember that your oral testimony was pretty short -- I guess because you forgot what you were going to say :) The good news was that because many of us kept the comments short, Chmn. Vallario didn't not feel the need to limit Massad Ayoob's time when he testified.

I know I was nervous and I wouldn't mind hearing any comments on how I sounded. I do know that I was a lot less nervous than last year and my nervousness talking to legislators and their staff has totally gone away.

I came to realize that whether it's oral or written testimony, they don't want their time wasted. The people Vallario cut off were the ones who were reading their written testimony, those who drifted off-topic or who simply rambled on and on. One time when I ran someone's written testimony up to the front, the lady asked "Do you really think they're going to read all of this?" (it was a pretty big stack of paper). I think the lesson is that letters and written testimony need to be written as concisely as possible.

Speaking of off-topic, did anyone notice how Henry threw in CCW stuff during his testimony against the AWB? Vallario tried to stop him at first, but he did a great job getting the points made anyway :D .

Greg

[Harry Tuttle]

Does anyone have a hypothesis as to why Ceasefire MD and VPC made such a poor showing yesterday?


Because the wheels have completely come off their grassroots Jihad and they are parked on the beltway with a dead battery and no one will stop to assist them.

The soccer mommies spent their bandwidth in 2000 and failed to elect KKT.

The grass roots anti gun folk found more productive things to do with thier time and only the professional Harpies are left.

Meanwhile the sleeping giant of gunowners has finally woke up and is making hay with Occam's Clue bat.

You should of seen Leah and company in their MMM Jihad days. They were working with Blair Ewing and the Monkey County Council, they were on a roll and were infringing honest folkes rights left and right. End the gunshows, stop the NRA dinner, declare a daycare center next to a Walton League property a school. They were in the press weekly.

The pendulum is now moving our way.

Anyone remember the previous MAHA president Carole Price? (http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=78555)

To truely "Ice this Cake", we must unElect Rob & Neil.
We need a full court press in their home districts.

Let Gov Bob's campaign handle Ehrlich II,
We are going after Political turkeys.

[Spot77]

I was pretty deaf by the time Henry spoke against the AWB.

We need to stay vigilant.

[Harry Tuttle]

I gather they didn't have Sonja Wells with them this time.

After the Sniper shootings they dragged her in and staged Photo ops right in the committee hearing room with Neil, Vallario seemed irked that the freshman was politizing his committee.

After the MMM 1999 rally the MAHAites were able to get lots of press in MD for any of their excursions to Annapolis.

Me thinks they burned their capital.

Vallario may not be on our side on the Issue,
but he likes an orderly predictable hearing schedule.

Quinters efforts made the chairman commitee go way late and their was a distinct absence of public support for more gun control.

The fact that Chairman Brian Frosh left before the hearing for Garagiola's AWB is also very telling.

[NoMoRINOs]

Folks,

It was a long day indeed. I'm caught up on this thread (finally) and just about everything written has been accurate. Let me "bloviate" a little:

1) The AWB has been dead, dead, dead for quite some time. The Senate JPR killed it, and that's that. Valario would never allow a vote on a bill if it is going nowhere. Consider that he scheduled that bill DEAD LAST, and that there were a half dozen or so police chiefs who had to WAIT UNTIL THE BITTER END to testify. OUR BILL WAS HEARD AHEAD OF THEIRS. That speaks volumes.

2) I spoke with Dwyer in the hall. He noted that Vallario's WONDERFUL treatment of us is very telling. He seemed optimistic. Don't want to get anyone's hopes up yet, but YEEHAH !!! Here is the UPDATED target list:

Anderson (43)
Carter (41)
D. Kelley (26)
P. Menes (21) // this is NOT a typo. Call her!
Petzold (19)
Zirkin (11) // again, no kidding!

The other votes are pretty much decided, so spend your resources properly. Please mention the obvious:

"Yesterday, 150 people testified for, ZERO against. 37 states have shall issue, 13 states don't. Maryland isn't one of them, and our crime rates show it. DO YOU HAVE A GOOD AND SUBSTANTIAL REASON TO DENY MARYLANDERS THE RIGHT TO SELF PROTECTION? "

3) My "handlers" have advised me to go easy on the "rift." I'll try. The access lobbyists you all have mentioned have actively worked AGAINST our efforts. Some more openly than others. Far be it from me to look into someone's heart, or question their motives, but I have to keep my eyes open & try to make sense of it all. There IS a rift, and it won't go away. I'm afraid we'll all have to deal with it. The great news is that were it not for the "rift" we would all be sitting at home waiting for the NRA types to save the day rather than doing the job ourselves. The point is, the "establishment" gun lobby has failed to motivate MD gun owers in large numbers. That's just a sad fact. MSI has motivated MD gun owners. That SHOULD BE good news to all, but it isn't. Hmmm?

4) Last and certainly not least THANK YOU ALL !!! Yesterday was a dream come true for me. I've been battling gun control for 6 long years. Not as long as some, but plenty long for me. About a year ago, I concluded that the dozen or so gunnies active in MD simply could not do it on their own. That is no slap to any of those hard working gun activists, many of whom USED to be my friends. We needed numbers, and we got them. Frankly, I think *some* of the old guard could work on their hospitality skills a bit. I want you all to know that MSI IS NOT YOUR VOICE. It is your MEGAPHONE. We don't make the gunnies talk, we make them talk LOUDER, and hopefully more effectively.

5) Geez, I can't shut up! Please offer to be a MSI District Coordinator for YOUR district. It is not that much work, and the pay sucks. And call those on the new "target list" if you get a chance, especially the legislators that are closest to your district. Thanks again.

Steve D.

[Spot77]

Harry you're dead right about Vallario - he doesn't like crap from either side.

I'd love to have been a fly on the wall when he was jumping down Quinter's throat.

I wonder if we should limit our testimony when he's "indicating" like he was yesterday. He's easy to read when he's frustrated or when he knows he won't let a bill out of commitee.

[Girlwithagun]

I just called the swing voter delegates to thank them for hearing us, to ask them again to vote for HB1211 and to call me if I can be of further assistance. None of them were in but I left messages with all their aides. If we all do this, they should return to their desks with many messages and this shows them once again that we are serious.

[Austin Charles]

Here are the numbers to make it easy. Please call them and ask for their support of HB1211


Anderson - Baltimore City, District 43 410-841-3291

Carter - Baltimore City, District 41 410-841-3283

D. Kelly - P.G. County, District 26 410-841-3212

Menes - Anne Arundel Co, District 21 410-841-3114

Petzold - Montgomery Co., District 19 410-841-3001

Zerkin :rolleyes: - baltimore City, District 11 410-841-3342

http://www.mdarchives.state.md.us/msa/mdmanual/06hse/html/hseal.html
Here is the rest of their numbers

[DelayedReaction]

Okay, bit of an update on Carter.

I talked to her aide, and she is literally on the fence. Her aide is actually fully in support of HB1211 (and even mentioned getting a CCW himself), but she is still undecided. I think with a bit of concerted effort we can get her on our side.

I called everyone on my list and got mostly messages (turns out there in session right now), but every one of them has me on record of being in favor of this bill.

[Greg M]

Well said NoMoRINOs. I'll say again that I am proud to be associated with Maryland Shall Issue. I think we showed the "establishment" gun lobby that we could turn out as much testimony for CCW as was there against the AWB. I know that there were people testifying for/against both bills and I didn't count the actual number for/against each bill, but it was clear that we were not some fringe group with minimal support. I was glad to see Sandy Abrams testifying for our bill.

Yesterday morning I spent about two hours visiting the offices (speaking only to the legislative aides) of Busch, Astle, Vallario, Clagett and Sophocleus. I had a letter (basically my written testimony on HB1211 personalized) for each. The visits ranged from 30 seconds to about 30 minutes. I came away thinking that it had been very productive so I was thinking that I could do this for Anderson, Carter, Kelley, Menes, Petzold, Zirkin and Vallario (again - also thanking him for his fair treatment of our side) on Monday evening since they have a late session on Mondays.

Here are my questions for anyone who has gone there on a Monday evening:
Is late session at 8:00 p.m? What time do you think they get in on Mondays?
Is there evening parking nearby? I think the gal at the stadium is gone so can I park free there?
The only reason not to wait until Monday is if the bill would be voted on today or tomorrow which seems unlikely. Is that correct?
Thanks,
Greg

[moa]

I think we had a great showing. I was at hearing room from 1230 PM to 900 PM, sitting near the door. It seemed the lobby was packed with a lot of people, many of them gunnies. I thought most of our testimory was outstanding and to the point. I was much impressed.

However, with all the bills and about 500 witnesses (most on our side), I would have hoped chairman Vallerio would hve the most contentious bills heard first. Maybe that was intentional. I recall very little police testimony supporting the AWB. I was quite late then.

[Spot77]

There is NO SUPPORT from the police for an AWB. The only police who EVER testify are from Montgomery County, Baltimore City, and occassionally the same guy from Howard County. These guys like to say that they represent their departments, but when asked how many officers in these departments were polled about support or opposition it's always the same answer - none. They are there representing their chiefs' political interests only.

Vallario did the RIGHT thing by holding the AWB until last. He knew we weren't leaving, and that these police officers there to testify probably really didn't care one way or the other. That's why most left.

I made a point to thank the State Troopers who testified against the AWB.

[Norton]

moa,

While is cutomary to put the most contentious bills last so that the other work can get done, I really think that Vallerio drug it out as long as possible and put Quinter's bill dead last just to punish him for bringing a loser of a bill to the committee. Vallerio rang Quinter's clock pretty good during their little exchange at the front of the room.

[Norton]

There is NO SUPPORT from the police for an AWB.

In fact, when we went out after the hearing, the officer working the scanning machine made the comment of "Let everyone have a gun....they sure as h&^% aren't getting mine" :evil:

[Harry Tuttle]

did CF/VPC have their boy Joe Vince in the house to push Ballistic Fingerprinting?

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/images/ballist_vince1.jpg

http://www.csgv.org/news/news_releases.cfm?pressReleaseID=36

[NoMoRINOs]

Greg M,

As for Mondays, I've only done one, but I seem to remember the delegates get in late in the afternoon, say around 3:00. Parking appears to be free in the stadium if you stay late enough. As for WHEN (or if) the vote will happen, nobody knows, HOWEVER, there is a "committee courtesy date" coming up next week. I *think* that means the committees are supposed to announce which bills are favorable. Thus if there is a vote, it will be in the next week or so. It could be as soon as tomorro. Bottom line: Do whatever you can as soon as you can.

PS: Thanks, Austin Charles for posting the phone #'s. I used them to make my calls!

SD

[Spot77]

Harry - No Joe Vance this time.

They did trot out some ex- NRA Lawyer to say that BF WILL work if given a chance, The State Police are all bad, yada, yada....


I just got an email confirming that Delegate Sophocleus WILL vote FOR HB1211 - the ccw bill!

[DelayedReaction]

Yeah, his aid confirmed with me that he is going to vote for it. Turns out he's never actually voted for gun control - at least that's what his aide said. :D

Menes called me back but got my voicemail (that's what I get for working underground where reception is a joke). I'll call her office again tommorrow and hopefully be able to chat with her; her aide is very nice. I'm not optimistic about convincing her for our side, but I AM her constituent so we'll see what happens.

[Spot77]

DR - keep at it. Be sure she knows that she represents you.

Try to find another bill she voted for that you liked. You could say something to her like, "Thank you for your vote on _____. I'm sure that we both feel the same about HB1211 as well".

Sophocleus' aide is just as Pro 2A than ANY of us. When I visited his office a few weeks ago, she was lecturing ME about the hazards of disarming the population.

I have found a new respect for many of the legislators this year. Many Democrats have voted for good gun bills and against the bad ones. I really feel there's an attitude change going on in the MD Democratic Party; a GOOD change regarding gun control. It might be slow, but I prefer that to the overnight changes that some reps make just to be popular. I want them to REALLY understand the issue and see why gun control is so fundementally wrong, and SO overbearing in Maryland.

Now if the closeminded dolts of Montgomery County would listen to their constituents rather than their money pimps, we could make HUGE leaps forward.

[nico]

Even though we've made so much progress lately, I'm kinda worried about the upcomming Gubenatorial election. Sure, Ehrlich hasn't been vocally pro-gun, but if he lost to O'Malley or Duncan, I'm affraid it could erase all the positive steps we've made over the last couple of years. Ehrlich would almost certainly sign a CCW bill, and either of the other two would not only veto it, they'd surely be very active against it.

[Spot77]

Good point Nico, but we may not need to worry about that for a while.

O'Malley is very charasmatic, but he's done a certifiably LOUSY job as Mayor of Baltimore. People outside of Baltimore loathe going to the city because of his mess.

Duncan will properly be portrayed as the SCREAMING Leftist liberal that he is.

If you recall the recent presidential election's county by county map, only two counties and Baltimore City were Democratic strongholds. The rest were blood red. This might have been enough for the Presidential election, but hatred for Bush runs far stronger than any disliking for Ehrlich (except for the die-hards of course)

These red counties will turn out huge numbers of votes, and even the blue counties won't be happy to have to vote for O'Malley or Duncan.

Just my opinion of course (and obviously biased because this is how I WANT it to be!)

[Austin Charles]

Here maybe someone could send these facts for the guy(I forgot his name) who wanted FACTS.
http://www.justfacts.com/gun_control.htm
Gun Control

Note: This listing of facts is derived from over 200 hours of research and analysis of more than 100 articles, documents, and books. Every statistic from a given year was chosen based on availability, and not to slant the results by singling out a specific year that was different from others. Especially when dealing with statistics, the determination of what constitutes a credible fact and what does not, can contain elements of personal subjectivity. It is our mission to minimize subjective information and to provide highly factual content. Therefore, we are taking the additional step of giving our readers a tool to determine for themselves the viability of our work.


OWNERSHIP
* Private Firearm Ownership in the U.S. as of 1997

# of Guns # of Owners
All Firearms 200-240 Million 60-65 Million
Handguns 75-80 Million 30-35 Million

FIREARM USE IN CRIME AND SELF DEFENSE
* In the United States during 1997, people committed 15,289 murders. The perpetrators used a firearm in 10,369 of these instances.
* In the United States during 1997, people committed about 7,927,000 violent crimes. The perpetrators used a firearm in about 691,000 of these instances.
* As of 1992, for about every 14 violent crimes (murder, rape, etc…) committed in the United States, one person is sentenced to prison.
* As of 1992, average length of imprisonment for:
Murder 10.0 years
Rape 7.6 years
Aggravated Assault 3.4 years
* In the early/mid 1990's, criminals on parole or early release from prison committed about 5,000 murders, 17,000 rapes, and 200,000 robberies a year.
* Americans use firearms to defend themselves from criminals about 760,000 times a year. This figure is the lowest among a group of 15 nationwide polls done by organizations including Gallup and the Los Angeles Times.
* Approximately 11% of gun owners and 13% of handgun owners have used their firearms for protection from criminals.
* When citizens use guns for protection from criminals, the criminal is wounded in about 1 out of every 100 instances, and the criminal is killed in about 1 out of every 1000 instances.
* Washington D.C. enacted a virtual ban on handguns in 1976. Between 1976 and 1991, Washington D.C.'s homicide rate rose 200%, while the U.S. rate rose 12%.

RIGHT-TO-CARRY LAWS
* Right-to-carry laws require law enforcement agencies to issue handgun permits to all qualified applicants. Qualifications include criteria such as age, a clean criminal record, and completing a firearm safety course.
* In 1986, nine states had right-to-carry laws.
* As of 1998, 31 states have right-to-carry laws, and about half the U.S. population lives in these states.
* In 1996, Dr. John R. Lott of the University of Chicago Law School published the results of a crime study conducted using FBI data for all 3,045 U.S. counties from 1977 to 1992.
* The study sought to answer the question, "What happens to crime when states adopt right-to-carry laws?"
* Between 1977 and 1992, 10 states adopted right-to-carry laws. Dr. Lott's study found that the implementation of these laws created:
-- no change in suicide rates,
-- a .5% rise in accidental firearm deaths,
-- a 5% decline in rapes,
-- a 7% decline in aggravated assaults,
-- and an 8% decline in murder
for the 10 states that adopted these laws between 1977 and 1992.

* Using 1995 numbers, this amounts to:
-- 1 more accidental gun death,
-- 316 less murders,
-- 939 less rapes,
-- and 14,702 less aggravated assaults
in these 10 states annually.

For facts regarding the methodology of Lott's study, criticisms of Lott, and criticisms of his study, http://www.justfacts.com/jlott.htm

* Florida adopted a right-to-carry law in 1987. At the time the law was passed, critics predicted increases in violence. The founder of the National Organization of Women, Betty Friedan stated:
"lethal violence, even in self defense, only engenders more violence."
* When the law went into effect, the Dade County Police began a program to record all arrest and non arrest incidents involving concealed carry licensees. Between September of 1987 and August of 1992, Dade County recorded 4 crimes committed by licensees with firearms. None of these crimes resulted in an injury. The record keeping program was abandoned in 1992 because there were not enough incidents to justify tracking them.
* Florida adopted a right-to-carry law in 1987. Between 1987 and 1996, these changes occurred:
Florida United States
homicide rate -36% -.4%
firearm homicide rate -37% +15%
handgun homicide rate -41% +24%
* 221,443 concealed carry licenses were issued in Florida between October of 1987 and April of 1994. During that time, Florida recorded 18 crimes committed by licensees with firearms.
* As of 1998, nationwide, there has been 1 recorded incident in which a permit holder shot someone following a traffic accident. The permit holder was not charged, as the grand jury ruled the shooting was in self defense.
* As of 1998, no permit holder has ever shot a police officer. There have been several cases in which a permit holder has protected an officer's life.


I'm sure marylandshallissue.org could use these

Take care Erik Bischoff

[DelayedReaction]

* Florida adopted a right-to-carry law in 1987. Between 1987 and 1996, these changes occurred:
Florida United States
homicide rate -36% -.4%
firearm homicide rate -37% +15%
handgun homicide rate -41% +24%

THAT was what I was looking for. Do you know what source they use to get those statistics? I think showing that to Menes would easily convince her to help, especially since our bill is identical to Florida's.

Doh, source found in link. But "1998 NRA Fact Sheet" isn't going to be good enough for me, especially given the crap sources the other side was using.

[Austin Charles]

The Gun Control References are found at the bottom of the web page.

NOT all are from the NRA. And what is, is facted by the FBI

[DelayedReaction]

Yeah, but the facts used in the part I quoted are from the NRA. And while I'm sure they're reasonable, I want an independent source. After all, the second that guy mentioned his source, we all laughed out loud.

It's okay though, www.disastercenter.com has the info I need.

[Harry Tuttle]

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/ucr.htm

The Uniform Crime Reporting (UCR) Program was conceived in 1929 by the International Association of Chiefs of Police to meet a need for reliable, uniform crime statistics for the nation. In 1930, the FBI was tasked with collecting, publishing, and archiving those statistics. Today, several annual statistical publications, such as the comprehensive Crime in the United States, are produced from data provided by nearly 17,000 law enforcement agencies across the United States.


Other annual publications, such as Hate Crime Statistics and Law Enforcement Officers Killed and Assaulted address specialized facets of crime such as hate crime or the murder and assaults of law enforcement officers respectively.


Special studies, reports, and monographs prepared using data mined from the UCR's large database are published each year as well. In addition to these reports, information about the National Incident-Based Reporting System (NIBRS) and UCR Frequently Asked Questions are also available on this site.

[Kharn]

I heard on the KML morning show on 97.9 that state sen. Geianetti (spelling?) advised his wife not to take a breathalyzer when she was pulled over for drunk driving back on 17 December. The twist is that he's one of the biggest crusaders against drunk driving in the senate, including wanting to criminalize the act of declining the breathalyzer. Is he one of the good guys, or an anti?

Kharn

[Norton]

Just sent everyone on the list an email urging them to support HB1211.

Everyone, don't forget to apply equal pressure in opposition to the AWB! Don't let this slide under our radar while we are focusing on the CCW bill.

[DelayedReaction]

Gianetti has been pretty supportive. I was under the impression that declining a breathalyzer in this state was grounds for removing your license.

Honestly unless there's a source above and beyond KML, I wouldn't be inclined to believe it.

[Kharn]

DelayedReaction:
Declining the test is an automatic 6mo loss of license, but no criminal penalties.

Kharn

[nico]

I'd take any political information on KML with a grain of salt (a spoonfull if it comes from Lopez). For some reason, the MD democrats seem out to get Gianetti. Between his tailgate parties at UM football games (what self respecting democrat would rub elbows with the peasants?) and his vote on the AWB, he's been catching a lot of crap from them lately.

As for the 6 month license suspension, I wonder if the Portis case will set a precedent or if it's just special treatment for a celebrity. The judge just threw out the Failure to Take a Breathalyzer charge because he said the cops didn't have just cause to request the breathalyzer. Not to encourage drunk driving, but if you've had a couple too many drinks and might not pass the brethalyzer, what do you have to lose in refusing to take it? Unless you're really drunk, they probably wouldn't be able to get physical evidence of your guilt, and a 6 month suspension is a lot less than you would/should get for DUI.

[Spot77]

Senator Gianetti is a GOOD GUY, and Gail Gunn seems to have made him her priority target since he's killed the AWB twice now.

Gee, I wonder why she won't go after any of the other 5 Senators on the Senate JPR who voted against it?

I'm sending Senator Gianetti another $25 right now.

[Greg M]

I saw the Gianetti story on Channel 11 this morning. Yes, Gianetti helped us last year with the AWB, but this sounds like the typical hypocracy that many politicians practice. It appears that as a practical matter he recommends refusing a breath test, but as a political matter it sounds better to criminalize that same action. That's what a politician who does not have good character will do. I've learned to ask for (and later thank) a politician for his vote on an issue and not worry too much whether he's a good guy or not.

The good news is that there are exceptions: Dwyer, Mooney, Sophocleus... Any others?

Greg

[Spot77]

Sure, theres tons of em'!


Also, I forgot to say this earlier, but I wanted to thank Pete Clark (I hope I got his name right) from VCDL for coming out and spending the entire day with us to testify in favor of HB1211.


THANKS PETE!

[Norton]

Received my reply back from Sophocleus saying that he would support HB1211

[Spot77]

Oh, by the way....the young Delegate who wanted more stats was Bobby Zirkin, Democrat, district 11 - Pikesville.

It would be QUITE beneficial for people in that are to send emails, and make phonecalls.

Del Zirkin is especially concerned about the opinions of his Jewish constituents.

Here is a link:

http://www.bobbyzirkin.com/

[00-Guy]

http://www.thewbalchannel.com/news/4274892/detail.html

I am not a lwayer. I do not play one on TV. However, I believe that his position is that he is acting in her interest as her LAWYER. It is his obligation to provide for her the best defense possible. This defense would include her NOT taking a breathelizer test.

Having said that, I have a hard time with his approach. (One reason why I chose not to become a lawyer. I could/would not defend someone who I felt was guilty. Or work pro bono for them.)

I have spoken with and coresponded with Senator Giannetti. He is a friend of Maryland gun owners. Edit His positions on guns come from a thought out position not an emotional appeal. I have no problem supporting him in this effort. He just doing his day job. It should not affect his 90-day a year job.

[DelayedReaction]

Okay, I called Menes. It turns out her aide is absolutely swamped with phone calls with regards to HB1211, and people are actually calling in to oppose it! We need to make sure she understands just how many people support this bill.

Apparently the delegates don't know when the vote for each bill is made (or if a vote is even done), but the aide said she would let me know when they made a decision.

[Greg M]

and people are actually calling in to oppose it!
I wonder if there's someone or some group organizing opposition. Perhaps Cease Fire MD thought there was no chance of it getting a vote, much less passing so they didn't bother opposing it at the hearing, but then had second thoughts after hearing the testimony. Maybe Quinter is aware of the support it is getting and got Cease Fire to organize some calls. Hmmm.... :scrutiny:

[MDHunter]

I just called all of the delegates listed on this thread and registered my support for 1211, and my opposition to 948 (AWB). The only person I wasn't able to reach is Carter, whose phone at the moment is forwarded to her Baltimore number, with aide's message saying they're out of session at the moment. No answer at Baltimore (410-367-3939) either, but I'll keep trying.

And I think it may already have been mentioned here, but in case it wasn't.....when I talked to Sophocleus' aide, she said that "he always votes against the gun bills and supports gun ownership." This lady (his aide) doesn't like the media and only watches Fox news.....a rather enlightened person, I was pleasantly surprised! After hearing her mention Sophocleus' stance on guns I said that even though I'm from another district, add my address to Mr. Sophocleus' fund-raising distribution list.....let's just say that concluded the conversation in a highly positive manner. ;)

I also thanked Vallario's aide for the fair treatment he provided all on Wednesday (I was on travel, but read all you guys posts who were there about how well he handled things).

Keep the phones ringing.....

Michael

[nico]

I just heard more good news guys. Paul Sarbanes is retiring after this term. Maybe we can get someone who represents the red counties in MD to replace him

[Spot77]

Actually, it concerns me greatly that Sarbanes is retiring. It means that Pipkin will run and probably win, and Maryland will lose a pro gun State Senator to the fed.gov where we don't actually need him as much right now.

I'm much more worried about bad State legislation the bad federal legislation right now.

[nico]

hmm that's a good point. Pipkin's from the eastern shore right? Couldn't a like-minded person just take his place? Of course there's a risk, but a pro-gun senator and a pro-gun state senator are better than a strident anti senator and a pro-gun state senator. man, this politics thing never ends

[bbrins]

I sent letters via email and USPS to all of the committee members. I was able to make it to the senate hearings a few weeks ago, but I'm sorry that I wasn't able to make it this time around. Thank you very much to those who did attend.

[P95Carry]

Here it is -

Thanks To All Maryland NRA Members!

http://www.nraila.org/CurrentLegislation/Read.aspx?FormMode=Detail&ID=1431&EID=185768-3112005

[DelayedReaction]

Why isn't the NRA supporting HB1211?

[nico]

Why isn't the NRA supporting HB1211?
good question.

[Spot77]

Because the NRA doesn't think it will ever pass. They don't want to get behind a bill that will not pass and have the biased media claim that an NRA backed bill failed. They're afraid of losing, and they're afraid to put pressure on the Ehrlich administration.


The NRA is in bed with the GOP far more than they are with MD gunowners.

In the BIG picture of things, it could almost make sense. But I refuse to accept their attitude on this. That's a defeatist attitude.

Make no mistake - the NRA is NOT Maryland's friend. They're just not quite our enemy.

Call the Maryland NRA Rep....Jenn Palmer is it? Sorry it's late and I can't remember. Ask her why the NRA won't support ccw in Maryland. Her and Jim Purtilo are good friends and I was told that they actually lobbied against HB1211 by somebody who actually saw them in Annapolis doing just that. Maybe they can answer the million dollar question better than I. If they have some grand scheme that's better than what we're doing, I wish they would share it with us. Most Marylanders are plain tired of sitting back and waiting for the NRA to save the day for us. I didn't see anybody from the NRA in Annapolis last year OR this year to testify against the bad bills and for the good ones. Sandy Abrams was there, but he repeatedly stated that he was there representing the MD Licensed Firearms Dealers' Association, and NOT there as an NRA board member.

[Austin Charles]

Please let's not burn any bridges!!

I to would love to see the NRA back HB 1211, but I would hate to count them out.

We have come far in a short period of time with the help of some dedicated Marylanders. Spot your one of them :) thanks

But I rember even you saying that Maryland was not ready for concealed Carry yet. That was only last year.

"As much as even >I< hate to admit it, Maryland isn't ready for mass concealed carry by citizens."

".....but I think even the State Police would be against us on this one, if only due to the increased workload they would have to assume."

As you can see the State Police did not oppose HB 1211 this year.

This has went far better than anyone first thought it would, I would hope that the NRA will pitch in when they feel that it is the right time.

I was very glad to see that Sandy Abrams was up to testify for HB 1211, but even he said that he had doubt that this would pass. But it has a way better chance than first thought. Next year will be even better if it doesn't get through this year.

So my point is... don't knock anyone out before we get there ;)


This was not a flame, but I hate to see groups separate and work against each other.

Again I know you do a hell of a lot more than I have time for, for the Marylanders gun rights and it is well appreciated :) thanks again Erik

[Greg M]

What's funny is that on March 4th, the NRA-ILA put this out:
Among the pro-gun bills being considered are HB 179, which would repeal the current law requiring that all handguns undergo "ballistic imaging" before they could be sold, and HB 1211, the "Citizens` Protection Act of 2005," which makes improvements to the state`s current discriminatory carry permit system, allowing trained, law-abiding citizens to obtain a permit to carry a firearm for personal protection.
And on March 11th they ignore it. That makes me wonder if they figured they could mention it when it "had no chance" and then withdrew their meager support when they got wind of the attention the bill is getting :scrutiny: .

I think Spot77 is right when he says:
Make no mistake - the NRA is NOT Maryland's friend.
It appears that they support/oppose bills based on the ramifications for the rest of the country and Maryland be damned :mad: !

Greg

[Harry Tuttle]

Y'all do know about Jennifer Palmer's record with the brassroots in North Carolina?

http://www.grnc.org/neal_knox.htm

[Greg M]

Harry, I had heard a paraphased version of that story. Thanks for the link to the Neal Knox letter.
Greg

[Spot77]

Greg and Erik - both good points.

Yup- I sure did say last year that MD wasn't ready, and I still believe the political climate is less than hospitable, but that's all the more reason we (NRA included) should be pushing HARD NOW. Should Ehrlich fail to get re-elected, things will get worse for us. If he does get re-elected, we'll only have four years to get things done. And that's ONLY if the Senate JPR stays in our favor, and the rest of the house and senate doesn't fill up with more anti's.

Make no mistake - we'll work with ANYBODY on all gun bills. But if they want to sit back and do nothing, everybody should know what they're doing or not doing. Especially all of us that are NRA members (Hell I'm even a LIFE MEMBER).

Not burning any bridges - in some places, there are no bridges.

I'm not sure why the State Police didn't testify against us this year - it's been suggested that MSI's pressure on Gov. Ehrlich (heck we dumped 1500+ signed letters on his desk demanding that he do something) might have influenced the decision not to oppose it. But just because they didn't speak out against it doesn't mean they are FOR it.

It looks like we only need ONE MORE VOTE to get a favorable report from the House Judiciary Commitee.....WOW! That was impossible even a year ago. Imagine what would happen if groups like The NRA and Tripwire would have supported Marylanders instead of saying that anybody supporting ccw reform this year was woking directly with the Brady Campaign to get an AWB passed? That was an uncalled for slander, and I don't think it made anybody happy except for Gail Gunn's crowd.

[Austin Charles]

I was never sure what was being said between the two groups.

But I alway's stood up for MSI. They got CCW in Maryland a lot of attention and that is exactly what was needed. Because of MSI HB 1211 is on their plate now ;)

The fights were being lost prior to this year and it WAS time for some new blood to take a stab at it.

I am very proud of MSI and I am sure that they gained EVERYONE'S RESPECT of how they handled HB 1211 and the AWB. I know they got mine. Thanks again MSI.

I know that those doubted you beforewill have to sit back and rethink Their innitial thoughts. MSI got the word out and people are paying attention.

As for are Marylanders ready? I KNOW the people of Maryland are ready and now because of MSI and all the call's and E-Mails they received now the politicians have it sitting on their plate ready for a vote.

I just want to see everyone work together and on the same team. I heard those same lies about MSI and told people that it was BS. Now everyone can see it was BS. So the truth is shown with their vote on HB 1211 being awaited.

Thanks Spott for all your hard work.Like I said before, this is not a flame at you at all and everyone of us appreciates everything you and so many others have put into this effort. I just hate name calling, it does nothing but pull groups apart.

Thanks again Erik

[Spot77]

Part two:

Erik, you quoted me on a few things, but there were a lot of quotes after where I tried to clarify my position. Such as:

"These bills show a change in the way Marylanders feel about gun laws and even personal rights in general. The more support we continue to show for these things, the better are chances are of seeing some change. It may take a looooooong time, but it's certainly worth a few minutes a week to send emails, faxes and letters and to make a few phone calls."


And yes, you caught me in some negativity. But that was LAST year. Ironbarr had some posts in that thread that made an impact on me - that I in fact had become ingrained with negativity due to Maryland's anti-gun environment. He (or she) was right. I was wrong. I testified in favor of the bill even though I was unsure of it because it was the right thing to do.

So if an individual like me (or any of us growing up here) can recognize how dangerous a "sit back and wait" attitude is, then experienced players like the NRA should know the same.

Point: Look how many "gun bills" were heard on the 9th. Quinter's AWB didn't get heard for over 8 hours. Had we not "filled the hopper" with so many pro gun bills to be heard, and had so many people testify, the AWB bill would have been heard earlier allowing all of Ceasefire's minions to testify. Most of them left by 5pm and Quinter was PISSED.

So by being SUPER PROACTIVE with gun bills, we can more easily fight the bad ones. Most people testifying for the good ones also testified against the bad ones, and that takes a boatload of time. More time on good bills = less time on bad ones.

So it should make sense that everybody (NRA included) take the time with every bill, whether it can pass this year or not.

Maybe the NRA recognizes how good MD activists are now and they figure they'll fight the good fight where it's more needed :) :evil:

[Austin Charles]

" Maybe the NRA recognizes how good MD activists are now and they figure they'll fight the good fight where it's more needed" ...... Let's hope so :)

I agree the NRA should have been with us on HB 1211. I have never understood how they determine which bill's they will back and which they won't. After all they were already there :rolleyes:

But one thing is for certain, We are being taken seriously this time :)

Now if we can all stay together and hand them a good fight year after year. Things will change.

Take care Erik

[Greg M]

I have never understood how they determine which bill's they will back and which they won't.
Austin Charles, the more I think about it, the more it makes sense:

State level IBIS and AWB laws can be copied in other states and at the federal level. The NRA is willing to fight in Maryland to prevent that. HB 1211 has very little national impact (37 changes to 38 and travel to Maryland gets safer) and that's why they just don't care.

Greg

[DelayedReaction]

You said that we only need one more vote to get this to pass.

Who on the committee is voting what way?

[Spot77]

We need ONE of these Delegates to promise to vote in favor:

Vallario
Carter
Dumais
Kelley, D.
Menes
Simmons
Zirkin

[kingfish]

A big THANK YOU to those that went. I live in Annapolis and am ashamed to say that I couldnt make it.
If not for people like you, this great state would go the way of New York, New Jersey, Mass., California, etc.

Thank you all so much for the time you spent to fight these liberal gun grabbers on the behalf of us Marylanders.

[Spot77]

Welcome to THR Kingfish.

There's a BUNCH of Maryland folks here at The high Road - at least 60 that I know of. Be sure to check in often as there's always something going on.


It's probably time that we all get together again to celebrate what we've been fighting so hard for - SHOOTING! We all try to get together a few times a year to shoot, hang out, try each other's guns. Heck we've even had a picnic or two that was pretty fun.

[Austin Charles]

I am up for tomorrow someplace? On target/Select Fire Someplace indoors

Anyone up for it?

[Spot77]

Playing paintball tomorrow - I'll probably be too zapped of all my energy to do much else the rest of the day.

I'll get a thread started in Rallying Point so a bunch of us can make plans.

[Greg M]

I'm going to be at the House Office Bldg. tomorrow afternoon. In the likely chance that I won't be able to meet with the various legislators, I'm going to have a letter in-hand requesting their support for HB 1211. If anyone would like to join me, please PM me or just show up (I was thinking of getting there around 5:00 p.m. since I think the late Monday session starts at 8:00 p.m.). I'll be wearing my blue Maryland Shall Issue (http://www.marylandshallissue.org) cap and have my name on my visitor's badge.
Greg

[Norton]

Greg,

Thanks for once again making the trek downtown to talk to the legislators. I find that's not my gig as I do much better with either the large groups or writing letters.

Good luck!

[Spot77]

Greg I might be able to make it there by 7pm, which is actually a pretty good time to catch them before they go into session.

I'm not sure I'll have any more impact on anybody, but it certainly can't hurt.


By the way - Almost every Legislator (Maybe all of them now) representing Anne Arundel County is Pro Gun!

Great job to all of us in the area!!!!!

[Norton]

woohoo.....I knew that there was a reason that I lived in Anne Arundel County!

[Archangel]

As has been said, we're only one vote shy of getting a favorable report on HB1211. And word has it that Bobby Zirkin is considering voting for it. If any of you are from district 11, or know someone who is, get on the phone and put some more pressure on him to support HB1211.

Heck, even if you're not one of his constituents, give him a call.

[Spot77]

YES - CALL HIS OFFICE.

His district is in the Pikesville area I believe. If you work, live, or worship in that area, call him. Let him know you support HB 1211 and hope that he will too.

If you want some background info on him, see:

www.bobbyzirkin.com


It's time for our final push - let's make it with a bang.

[Greg M]

The lady in Delegate Kelley's office stated that while they have received many calls in regard to HB 1211 (Citizens' Protection Act of 2005), very few (in any) were from his constituents. Please call or FAX him if you are in his district (26 - PG county).

The Honorable Darryl A. Kelley
205 Lowe House Office Bldg.
6 Bladen Street
Annapolis, MD 21401-1991

301-858-3212
I'm not sure about the FAX number. The AGC says to use:
301-858-3850

darryl_kelley@house.state.md.us

[chaim]

Wow, I really have been away! Some awesome stuff going on here.

Sorry I couldn't be there with you guys. My job is draining me, this week and last the earliest I got out of here (other than Friday just before the sabbath began) was 730 and usually it is more like 830-9 (I'm here right now, taking a 10min brake for my sanity). Oh well, I hope to be around more in the future.

Several people said Zirkin is on the fence, and I think it was Spot who said something about him especially being concerned with the Jewish (vote) opinion on this. I'm thinking that it may be best if I tried to visit his office in person :D (for those who haven't met me since I haven't been so active in the MD THR stuff lately....well, here is a link to my synagogue *, yes it is Chassidic). I may try to drum up some of my like minded friends to do the same (few are as into shooting, but many are self-defense minded gun-owners).


Oh, am I the only one here thinking it, but with all the work he has been doing I "nominate" Spott77 to be the THR candidate for state house or senate next time around :cool:


*Sorry I removed the link. It just occurred to me how many people are here and may be curious. I don't know how much traffic the hosting plan they use can handle and I'd hate to see the site go down because I sent too many people to it. If you are interested and want to see the site, PM me and I'll give you the link.

[Spot77]

Thanks for the nomination Chaim!

I'm afraid I'm probably a better cheerleader than quarterback though. I can get the team motivated, but I'm not the front end decision maker!

I have thought about running for a county council seat or something though. I think I'll enjoy my kids' youthfullness and innocence first.

I have no news to pass along right now. It APPEARS that the AWB is dead, but one can never be too careful in MD. No news on ccw bill or ballistic fingerprint repeal (there is word that Ehrlich defunded BF, but I'm not sure where that came from yet)

We're still waiting to see if Chairman Vallario lets HB1211 out for a vote. Hopefully he's not getting any pressure from Busch against it with so much other stuff stealing the limelight.

[Spot77]

Today is the last day for a vote on any gun bill. Monday is the cross over day, so it looks like all gun bills will be bottled up.

That's good, and that's bad.

It means the AWB has been beaten back (assuming nothing dramatic happens today)

It means the ccw bill won't advance this year (We knew the odds were against us, but we made some great advancements this year - more to come on this)

Ballistic Fingerprint Repeal will probably die. The program is apparently defunded, but MSP will still be required to collect the casings for now, even if they don't do a dang thing with them. This sucks becasue the de-facto ban on certain handguns is still in place with manufacturers who don't provide a shell casing. This bill probably would have passed if Delegate Neil Quinter (fromer Dianne Feinstein minion) had not attached his AWB bill on it. The only good news on this is that one Democrat (Quinter) just screwed another Democrat (Cadden, who sponsored the BFR bill), and Quinter managed to piss off Chairman Vallario (of the Judicial Proceedings Commitee in the House). Should be some animosity in the Democratic Party locally for a while - maybe we can exploit that )

The one bill that didn't get any attention and was expected to pass was the bill to allow rest stops while transporting firearms in MD. As we all know, it is legal only to travel with a firearm if you're going directly to or from a shooting event or gunsmith. Thsi bill would have allowed us (oh the priviledge!) to stop for gas, a drink, make a phone call.....hopefully there will be a vote on this today. It's a no-brainer.

Anyway, if anybody hears anything good, bad, ugly or just different, please pass it along.

[DelayedReaction]

I suspect they'll at least vote on the BF bill. They didn't budget for it, and the State Police would not be in compliance otherwise.

[Kharn]

The one bill that didn't get any attention and was expected to pass was the bill to allow rest stops while transporting firearms in MD. As we all know, it is legal only to travel with a firearm if you're going directly to or from a shooting event or gunsmith. Thsi bill would have allowed us (oh the priviledge!) to stop for gas, a drink, make a phone call.....hopefully there will be a vote on this today. It's a no-brainer.
I thought current law allowed you to keep an unregulated weapon (shotgun, sks, etc) in your vehicle as long as the magazine was unloaded and rounds stored seperately. I've heard of the state police telling people a 12ga pump in the back and a box of buck in the glove compartment was ok. Or are you specifically talking about regulated weapons?

Kharn

[nico]

the law refers to all guns afaik.

[Spot77]

I was under the impression taht the lasw applied to all firearms. I had not heard that there were exceptions for unregulated firearms.

I'll have to get some clarification I guess.

PS - Kharn, I have those brew formulas for you. I just have to get back to work and decipher them - they're written on a napkin :neener:

[io333]

Here is some info:


http://www.packing.org/talk/thread.jsp?talk_thread=26495

http://www.packing.org/talk/thread.jsp?talk_thread=29381/

[Kharn]

So, any news from today's votes?

Spot:
[thread hijack in progress]
Many great things in life have been written on napkins. :)
Did you sample Celtic Fury the other week? I thought it was pretty good, much, much better than Blackjack Stout, that stuff was stronger than Guinness Extra Stout, in my opinion. :barf:
[we now return you to your regularly scheduled thread]

io333:
Those threads seem to be more confusing than the law itself. What a great legal system we're stuck with in this state. :uhoh:

Kharn