[Steve Smith]

I was doing some sightseeing today and went to Arlington Cemetary to pay my respects. While there I visited the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier. I just missed the changing of the guard, and eventually had to get moving becuase I needed to meet my customer later, so I missed the next one.

The Old Guard guard was carrying an M14...without a mag, from what I could see. Now, I understand why he doesn't have a mag in (carry that rifle with the mag digging in your shoulder!) but at the same time, not much of a "guard" without ammo. I wonder if it had a flush-mounted mag for his purposes of it it was really empty. Dang, I should have waited around for the guard change so I could check it out. :banghead:

I wonder why they don't use a Garand instead? Woud be easier to carry loaded.

[4v50 Gary]

Swung by 2 years ago to pay my respects and waited for the changing of the guard. It's impressive and very solemn. The warrant officer explains that they keep a guard 24/7 and each guard does 2 hours before being relieved. Found out that during the heat of summer one soldier collapsed and was left there until relieved. :eek: I would suggest 1 hour tours to prevent frostbite and heat stroke. Yes, I'm a whimp.

Think of it guys (and gals). We're safe and sound and night and deep into our sleep and some soldier is pacing 21 steps back & forth guarding those tombs. We're out there at the cinema, fishing, hunting, or at a sporting event and these guys are out there all the time. Kudos to these young men (and if there's any women in the Old Guard, them too).

[six 4 sure]

Been there twice once in 1988 once in 1993. I don't remember if they were carrying a mag, but I pretty sure I remember hearing they didn't have any ammo.

I was told Arlington can be a little creepy at night, and it seems some soldier took a shot at a noise he heard in the dark. After that no more ammo.

I'm sure there is someone more knowledgable that has the true answer.

six

[bad_dad_brad]

Pretty interesting history about Arlington, once in the George Washington family via Mary Custis Washington, and then later owned by Robert E. Lee. How complex American history is in a few short centuries.

http://www.saragossa.net/can/Arlington.html

Another.

http://arlingtoncounty.com/arlingtoncemetery.htm

And it sure does look like the rifle is an M14 without a mag in that picture.

[guy sajer]

I suspect that they are concerned for the safety of onlookers . They definately had no mags in guns . Could you imagine one of the soldiers passing out from the heat with a live weapon ?
A standard 20 rd issue mag would also probably make it hard to perform their close order drill .
I was there with my son's 6th grade class . They were permitted to place a wreath . It will remain one of the most memorable events in my life along with the Vietnam Wall . They both will "choke you up " . Wow . I thought I was tough .

[Zundfolge]

I've kinda got the opposite opinion on this then Steve Smith.

I understand why the gun isn't loaded, but I'd think it would look better if they just gave the guy an empty magazine.

[bad_dad_brad]

Certainly not an M16-A2. Not PC. How about a Garand? They used to use them locally during parades by the American Legion. They were painted white.

[Sir Galahad]

I recall reading that the guard at the Tomb isn't the one who actually defends it. There are armed guards who can be called on if need be. After 9/11, the Tomb is definetely defended even better than before. They're just not seen.

[BusMaster007]

Thank you for starting this thread.
I have learned from it.
It's quite appropriate for this period of History. Good timing.

[Mike Irwin]

It's an HONOR guard, Steve.

It's not a "gotta guard this tomb so no one escapes" guard.

[mini14jac]

We visited two years ago.
If you can watch the changing of the guard, or visit "The Wall", without getting a lump in your throat, I don't think you know what being an American is all about.

Same goes for the Korean War memorial.
I had never heard of it before.
The way the soldiers are looking over their shoulders, as if they have just heard a noise, made the hair on the back of my neck stand up.

[Kharn]

IIRC, there is an elevator near the Tomb that the guards use when going on/off duty; I'd assume there's a few soldiers at the other end of the elevator shaft that can respond in case something happens. I'll have to ask my great-uncle the next time I see him, he served at the Tomb after recovering from being wounded in WWII and visits with the guards when he is in the area.

4v50Gary: From Bad_Dad_Brad's first link:
The guard is relieved after one hour (one-half hour in summer) in a silent, solemn ritual conducted by an officer.

Kharn

[Dannyboy]

Didn't they empty the remains from the tomb not too long ago? I thought they did so that they could be identified. Either way, the reason they don't have ammo is because it's ceremonial.

[Redlg155]

It's not a "gotta guard this tomb so no one escapes" guard.

If my memory of Biblical history serves me correctly, the last ol boys assigned that task didn't do very well. :D

Good Shooting
RED

[Mike Irwin]

"Didn't they empty the remains from the tomb not too long ago? I thought they did so that they could be identified."

NO.

Only the remains of the Vietnam War Unknown were removed so that they could be tested.

As the family suspected, they were the remains of Lt. Michael Blasie.

None of the other remains were removed, or tested.

Given the advances of science, it's likely that there won't be another American unknown.

Vietnam Unknown Identified (http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/1998/06/30/unknown.soldier/)

[Kharn]

Mike: Wasnt another Unknown from the Vietnam War placed into the Tomb when Lt. Blaise was removed?

Kharn

[Mike Irwin]

Kharn,

No. The crypt for the Vietnam Unknown is vacant. The Department of Defense made that decision after Blassie was identified, unless it is proven that they can never be identified, but the Central Identification Laboratory says that's very unlikely.

It's conceivable, but unlikely, that the other unknowns could be identified using DNA testing, especially mitochondrial DNA, which is passed through the maternal line essentially unchanged.

American military personnel now give a DNA sample, meaning that there's now the means to identify any potential unknowns.

The Arlington National Cemetery Website has a lot of very interesting information on all of this.

Arlington National Cemetery Vietnam Unknown (http://www.arlingtoncemetery.com/vietnam.htm)

[Steve Smith]

Mike is right, the Vietnam tomb is vacant.

Mike, I understand what you're saying, but in my world, anything that is worth an Honor Guard is worth ammo too.

[Cableman]

I was there in the summer of 1991. I saw the Tomb, the Vietnam wall, as well as the Desert Storm parade which was a military parade throught Washington DC. Probably one of the most memoriable trips I have ever been on. They had all the weapons used in Desert Storm in the mall - the grassy area in DC. You could walk around and look at the tanks, helios, missles, etc. It was a fantastic day to see the military parade then the fireworks show at night.

[El Rojo]

I don't know about you guys, but I can think of a lot better things to die for than just that tomb. Not to dishonor the sacrifices so many soldiers made that ensured my right to type what I type, do what I want, and own the firearms I have today, but what would be the point of dying trying to stop some terrorists from blowing up a lifeless tomb? They want to blow it up and they are completely dedicated to it, let em. I would rather see that tomb go up anyday than a stadium full of football fans or the Sears Tower.

And whose to say those color guard guys don't have a 20 round mag stashed somewhere on their body? ;)

[twoblink]

here in Taiwan, chrome plated garands ;)

They do 1 hour and are relieved the next hour; but the previous one stays around to wipe the sweat or fan the next soldier or straighten the uniforms etc. I think a Garand is a better choice for this..

[Lone Star]

Do the guards at Buckingham Palace have ammo? They used to have bayonets, but that seems hardly enough with IRA and other terrorists around.

That guy who walked in and sat on the Queen's bed a few years ago must have made her realize that she's vulnerable.

One would think that there'd be SAS men or armed police inside the Palace, and there probably are...now!

Lone Star

[Art Eatman]

El Rojo, take a look at a picture of the flag-raising on Mount Suribachi, and then come tell me that symbols aren't important.

Arlington is a symbol. Were I in the armed services and learned of a terrorist effort there and no resistance to it, I wouldn't bother to re-up. Those who won't honor the important symbols in life have no honor, and I won't associate with the sorry trash.

Which is part of why nobody around me will burn a flag and not then need a doctor's care.

Don't get me started, about honor and dignity and respect...

Art

[Steve Smith]

I'm with Art. If a soldier knows that his tomb won't be a sacred place to his nation, then he won't be interested in doing his job. At least I wouldn't. Those guards are there for the living soldiers more than that of the dead.

[Gerald McDonald]

El Rojo, if you think about it, those guys in the tomb died for us. Repaying the sacrifice isnt too much to ask.
Gerald

[Navy joe]

Definitely with Art, it is nigh impossible for me to go to any national cemetery without being emotionally touched. That includes several CSA cemeteries and a little section in Fenn Point in NJ that has German headstones. Arlington especially affects me, will watch the changing of the guard anytime. The only thing that tempers the experience for me is the emotion brought forth by remembering whose front yard Arlington was built in and why.

Flag burning, never seen it. Don't want to either. I don't fly a flag at home, have issues with a great many of the fair weather patriots, but that sure don't mean it's safe to light up around me.

[Heavygunz]

In reply to El Rojo's comment, "I don't know about you guys, but I can think of a lot better things to die for than just that tomb."... I concur with the verbatim details of his particular statement, in that I too can think of better things to die for; But... this does not imply that I wouldn't die for this also.

Having recently retired from the military after 27+ years, my head is full of stories of people who have died in places infinitely less hallowed than the tomb of the unknowns. However, none of them died truly defending a 'place' or a 'thing', holy or otherwise... each of them died for an ideology and a concept. The concept of freedom... pioneered by our forefathers over 225 years ago, and sadly enough, that same hard earned, paid for with blood freedom is being voluntarily sacrificed by Americans every day.

El Rojo, you are living in the state that is leading the charge to throw away the freedom that I and so many of my brothers swore to defend. You seem to cherish your right to "type what I type, do what I want, and own the firearms I have today" but I will point out that living in California, you have less freedom than many of us elsewhere in the country... I can still buy a pistol with a threaded barrel... I can still buy hi-cap mags... I can still buy and own the 'nasty black assault guns' that have been outlawed by your elected officials... you, sir, cannot. Conversely and perversely enough, I do not possess the same freedoms as many others elsewhere. In Wisconsin, I cannot carry concealed. (But I will be quick to point out that we are trying everything in our power to change that situation at our earliest opportunity.)

The point of my statement is this: It is not necessarily the place or the thing that warrants defense, but it is surely the concept that is represented. We have a long history of protecting our freedom. We have a long list of heroes who died doing exactly that. We strive to honor their sacrifices and their memory. This country was founded as a republic so let us do what we will to stop the encroachment on our rights and "let freedom ring."

Now getting down to the facts of this particular matter surrounding this thread... let us not be confused. The 3rd U.S. Infantry, traditionally known as "The Old Guard," is the Army's official ceremonial unit and escort to the president. It also provides security for Washington, D.C., in time of national emergency or civil disturbance.

The title of "Old Guard" does not imply that their job is to, in fact, 'guard' anything. They are not truly "guarding" the tomb... they are performing ceremonial duties... according to their posting on the Arlington web site, it is their function to "maintain a 24-hour vigil at the Tomb of the Unknowns".

As such, it is 'not their job' to be armed in an effort to 'guard' a hallowed structure like the tomb. It is their job to maintain the vigil, pay the due respects, and honor the sacrifices and the memories.

Let Freedom Ring...

Cordially,
heavygunz

[El Rojo]

my head is full of stories of people who have died in places infinitely less hallowed than the tomb of the unknowns.Right before I read that, I thought that same thing. How many people died for stupid reasons in some crap hole half way around the world? Their deaths a waste because someone screwed up. I guess in comparison dying at the Tomb would be a bit better wouldn't it?

I think you might be right Art, I might not want to get you started. I just won't share your zeal for symbols and although you would harm someone for the simple act of burning a flag, I don't feel that strongly about it. I know how you feel and what the flag means to you. I know what is symbolizes and I know of the sacrifice you and many others have made for this country. I guess I just believe that our enemies can burn the flag, they can blow up the Tomb, they can do what they want, but it won't change our country. It won't change the way you or I feel about liberty and freedom. It won't change the Constitution of the United States of America. America is not the flag. The flag is not America. We have more copies of the flag. We can build a new Tomb. We can't replace Art Eatman. We can't replace El Rojo.

Call me a snot nosed youngster that doesn't know about sacrifice if you want. I just don't feel too excited about giving up my life for the Tomb. Now if it were a war, my budies were by the Tomb, and I was trying to save their lives, I might do it. If I felt there was some strategic value in the Tomb, I might try. If I somehow thought that protecting the Tomb might end the war sooner, I might die trying to save it. However, duking it out til the death for a symbol isn't going to win a war. It isn't going to make my family feel any better. It just results in me dying. How many combat vets do you know that were really into just dying for the hell of it?

Those who won't honor the important symbols in life have no honor, and I won't associate with the sorry trash....Which is part of why nobody around me will burn a flag and not then need a doctor's care.

I guess I won't understand your emotion behind these statements. Who determines what are "important symbols in life" are? Whose "life" are we talking about? So if I understand correctly, if I don't honor your important symbols, you are going to make me need "a doctor's care"? So by the same token, if you were not to honor the Iraqi people's important symbols in their lives, they would be justified in making you in "need of a doctor's care". What makes your way of life more important than theirs? How do you justify your desire to harm others for the simple act of "dishonoring" your life symbols, yet advocate for the right of the people to keep and bear arms? Why should liberals trust you to carry a firearm when you are so easily brought to violence over material objects? Is the use of force justified to protect someone else's property? That isn't your flag they are burning. It might be our flag. It might be the symbol of the United States of America. It might represent the United States Constitution, it might represent the sacrifice so many people before us made so their offspring could enjoy this freedom loving country. However, that is only what we think. They might see it as a flag of oppression, hate, and evil. So if they want to burn their copy of the flag, they want to show this displeasure with America, let em. What are you going to do? Beat them down? Kill them? I am sure that will do a great job of changing their minds. Their actions don't change the sacrifice of the Unknown Soldier. Their actions don't change the United States Constitution and the wonderful Republic it created. Let them express their discontent. Let them act out their hate on a piece of material. To get mad about that, to get so incensed that you feel the need for brutal violence, that is what they want. They want to make you mad. They want to piss you off.

Not me. Their antics will not change the fact that the United States Constitution has not fallen. The American Flag still flies all through out this country. Great veterans, true veterans that know sacrifice and that gave more than I ever thought of giving are still alive and still living the American Dream today. Their actions have not stopped a new generation of patriots from doing their duty. In the Asian desert there exists 300,000+ young men and women that grew up in the MTV generation. They grew up not knowing hardship, not knowing sacrifice. Yet they still serve. They still are prepared for war. They are prepared to do what they were trained to do. Fight along side their brothers and do what it takes to win a war. To do what it takes to go home again. To make that sacrifice that so many did before them. Their sacrifice will not be erased by the destruction of a tomb or the burning of a flag. Patriots will still vote, Americans will still enjoy God-given rights, the People will still be able to express themselves in free speech. We will all remember their sacrifice. None of us will ever forget their sacrifice. In our own way we will appreciate that sacrifice. Some will understand that sacrifice more than others. Art probably feels and understands it at a higher level than I. I someday might increase the level I feel it too.

Honor America and the veterans who served America in the way you see fit, but I don't believe it is worth nor will it be effective to put someone "under a doctor's care" over it.

[Art Eatman]

Rojo, the United States of America is an unrealized dream. It never has been, in reality, "the land of the free". It never will be. However, that idea of freedom is valid, that men should be free. We have always had an unending squabble between personal sovereignty and freedom, and the constraints of both personal responsibility and societal controls--written or unwritten. We always shall.

We've had to fight for such freedoms as we've ever had.

And so we have symbols which have importance as representations of an ideal--called "Liberty". They are not representations of "government" or "foreign policy" or "Big Oil" or any of that sort of trivia. They represent what we'd like for this country to be in fact as well as in dreams.

Thus Suribachi and Arlington and Flanders Fields and Old Glory and Constitution Hall and the Liberty Bell: Symbols of an ideal.

It has never been "Washington's Flag" or "Grant's Flag" or Roosevelt's Flag" or "Clinton's Flag" or, now, "Bush's Flag". Old Glory doesn't symbolize a President or the Congress or even the dirt we live on. It symbolizes an idea, a dream.

I will not be impressed by others' ignorance of the meaning of our symbols. I am unpersuaded by the arguments of those who know no better than to misinterpret the meaning. Burning the Flag, spitting on the Tomb of the Unknown, that's a way of saying, "El Rojo, we just don't give a tinker's dam about your dreams. Your life has no meaning, no importance. You're just dirt."

I ain't nobody's dirt.

Art

[ed dixon]

First saw the changing of the guard as a young boy. I know the word was spread that if one of us (Scouts? Classmates? Don't remember which visit.) tried to "rush" the tomb the guards would shoot us dead. On orders. No choice. I believed it at the time. Saw it again when I was about twenty. Rainy day. Few people in attendance. Extremely solemn and resonant of the sacrifices made. To my mind far more impressive than the pomp at Buckingham Palace.