New box of Laupa 308 brass: do I have to fireform before loading?


PDA






Richard.Howe
February 21, 2005, 01:10 PM
I just bought a box of Laupa brass for my 308. A local reloading buddy says that I have to fireform this brass to my 308 rifle's chamber to get "good chamber fit" before loading for hunting rounds.

Is this a crock? I nearly called him out, but got to thinking that he might have a point. But is it significant?

Why can't I just full-length resize & trim the new brass to fit my chamber and bang away at my hunting loads?

Rich

P.S. -- This is a new one on me since I've always initially bought a few boxes of factory loads, shot them, and used those cases for future loads.

If you enjoyed reading about "New box of Laupa 308 brass: do I have to fireform before loading?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
kimbernut
February 21, 2005, 03:08 PM
Try some each way then you will know. We can debate the issue and get as many opinions as responders but your rifle will tell you what it likes and what it doesn't better than anyone.

ocabj
February 21, 2005, 04:49 PM
With brand new Lapua brass, I just chamfer/debur the neck and flash hole prior to loading.

30Cal
February 21, 2005, 05:30 PM
If you enjoy spending time at the reloading bench, you might try and see what you get. I doubt you'll see any significant difference unless you are shooting off a machine rest. FWIW, I don't fireform and still get the 1MoA or less that I need for Highpower Rifle Competition on the short line (300yds and less).

I'd FL resize, trim and load them (actually, I'd also uniform the primer pockets and deburr the flashhole, but I consider that unnecessary for hunting accuracy). Heck, I'd probably check 5 cases for length and if they're within 0.003" of each other and under the max length I'd skip the trim operation.

Ty

The Bushmaster
February 22, 2005, 02:54 AM
The only cases that I fire form is my .30-30 and that's because my chamber is just a little worn and needs the shoulder moved forward about .030 of an inch to keep primers from backing out. Set back you know.......A different way to solve that problem.

taliv
February 22, 2005, 09:28 AM
that's some seriously expensive hunting brass you got :)

yes, it's a crock, if all you're going to do is hunt with it. it's the equivalent of saying you can't hunt with ammo you bought at walmart because it's not fitted to your specific chamber.

The Bushmaster
February 22, 2005, 12:11 PM
Taliv,

Now why would you think that? Expensive? Naw...Just means one more day at the range to fireform the cases then back to the loading bench and full size them with the die set up .030 inch higher then normal. And who doesn't like an extra day at the range? And who doesen't need an extra day of practice? Expensive? Naw...Fun.

As far as these manuals being a rip off...Bull crappy!! Because of liability (especially here in The SSRC) all manuals are safe when using any reasonable component mix/match. That's ONE of the reasons why you are told over and over to start a load 10% below max charge. When I say reasonable component mix/match I mean after you have loaded enough to recognize and understand what you are doing when you use a different primer or bullet manufacturer. You don't load for lead bullets when you are using jacketed and so on. Reloaders have been substuting Magnum primers for standard primers for years. Yes one jacketed bullet may take less or more powder to send it on it's way compared to another (Bearing surface being the biggest factor). But with careful work up you can substitute one bullet for a other LIKE bullet.
Interchanging powder is another story. DON't do it...

Richard.Howe
February 22, 2005, 01:18 PM
Bushmaster, I think taliv was poking fun at my gross overkill of using Laupa brass for hunting...but hey, it's great brass!

The Bushmaster
February 22, 2005, 02:02 PM
I can live with that...

When I hunt I pick the best brass and components that I have including weighing each case and bullet. So you aren't the only one. My tolerence is +/- one grain. AND I am accused of being too picky for something that doesn't really matter. MY LOADING BENCH...MY COMPONENTS...MY TIME SPENT... The neat thing about reloading you can "have it YOUR way". We reload to attain near, or as close as possible, perfect rounds as economics allows each person.

Besides it's FUN.......

Paul "Fitz" Jones
February 23, 2005, 01:49 AM
Fireforming, weighing your new brass, checking that all the new brass is exactly the same length, truing the flash holes, tumble polishing the brass to a mirror finish, cleaning primer pockets on hunting ammunition.

THE DEER DON'T KNOW THE DIFFERENCE.

I love bulletcasting and reloading so much that I have loaded a few hundred thousand of them for my friends. Since I can always hit what I aim at then bulletcasting and reloading is more of a challenge and FUN.

Richard.Howe
February 23, 2005, 08:59 AM
:D

I know, I know Fitz...but I can't help it, it's in my blood. I'm a *$#%@ engineer.

I'm that guy who alternates his lawn mowing pattern to keep from setting up wear patterns in the grass.

If it can be done better, I will do it better, whether it makes a lick of difference...but with my family growing...well, I'm not finding as much time to be parsnickety about everything.

But I still am neorotic about my reloading!!!!

The Bushmaster
February 23, 2005, 09:54 PM
Gee Paul "Fitz" Jones. You sure are a party pooper for your age. Now, come on...Let us young-uns have the same fun like what you had a lot of years ago. I fully realize that it may not make any difference and like you I have not missed a deer yet. Well except that first deer that I got "Buck Fever" with and emptied every one of those .30-30's on the ground and never fired narry a one. I swear...I heard every one and felt the recoil, but not a one had pin mark in them. Yup...I've had that Winchester that long and cut my teeth in the Great Northwest on running shots on Blacktails. Gettin' deep here...Got your galoshes on?? I will still prep my hunting amunition carefully and with great detail. Thank you.....

taliv
February 23, 2005, 10:54 PM
bushmaster, yep, I just thought it was humorous to use Lapua brass for deer. I use Lapua for all my .308 match loads, and do all the fire-forming, etc. and have a lot of fun doing it. (you can get ALMOST the same accuracy out of a 5 cent case vs the 64 cent each lapua)

if I got a wild hair up my bung and decided to go poke a hole in a deer, i'd definitely just use one of my match bullets.

but when someone starts a thread asking if they "have" to do something "for hunting loads", that tells me they'd really rather be doing something else. e.g. load twice as many rounds w/o fire-forming as with, in a given time.

no blood, no foul :)

The Bushmaster
February 24, 2005, 09:23 PM
@#$%^&* L O L

Wildalaska
February 25, 2005, 03:33 AM
Grow up guys, yer fighting like kids..I'll settle this crap up...
Send me the Lapua brass.

WildthatsolvesallAlaska

Steve Smith
February 25, 2005, 04:51 AM
Lapua brass within hunting distances is a waste of money. You have it now, so you might as well use it, but you won't need to fireform it. Just shoot it...chances are, if you are asking the question you are not a good enough shooter to see the difference at any range.


That is not an insult, it is the truth.

Richard.Howe
February 25, 2005, 09:34 AM
:)

Dang, on a board where seeming every other poster carries a $3000 1911 and uses his Sako 75 Deluxe w/ Zeiss glass on squirrels, I thought I might not get razzed too bad re: my extravagant preference for $0.60 Laupa cases...

:)

No offense taken Steve, and you're right. Nevertheless -- "what's the best thing to do" is never a silly question, regardless of the user's ability to avail himself of the benefits of doing said best thing. Plato's Ideal and all...

Y'all have a great weekend!
Rich

Wildalaska
February 25, 2005, 02:04 PM
Cajun, dont worry I have lots of Lapua brass Im gonna use, for hunting and targets

WildmoneywasterAlaska

halvey
February 25, 2005, 02:20 PM
Dang, on a board where seeming every other poster carries a $3000 1911 and uses his Sako 75 Deluxe w/ Zeiss glass on squirrels, I thought I might not get razzed too bad re: my extravagant preference for $0.60 Laupa cases... Ain't that the truth. :rolleyes:

308win
February 25, 2005, 04:19 PM
Lapua brass within hunting distances is a waste of money. You have it now, so you might as well use it, but you won't need to fireform it. Just shoot it...chances are, if you are asking the question you are not a good enough shooter to see the difference at any range.

You sir have the tact of a bull in a china shop. Not an insult just the truth and being a moderator doesn't give you carte blanche to be rude.

The Bushmaster
February 25, 2005, 09:49 PM
O K Boys...Calm down. This was all in fun. Put that hog leg back in its holster and pick up that beer and smile.
Taliv, You still with us?
Cajuncoona, Hunt with what ever eats your shorts and blows your socks off. With my blessing. This is and has been fun.

taliv
February 25, 2005, 10:10 PM
:)

Richard.Howe
February 25, 2005, 10:16 PM
Wahoo!

Back to the issue at hand, today was a great day!

I answered my own questions with regard to the issues posed in my original posting. I tried my rifle's pet load in fire-formed brass, and then in this new stuff. Incidentally -- the Lyman 1200 is heaven-sent.

Bottom line: at 300 yards, there wasn't a cat sneeze worth of difference. Just nice, tight groups of 308 goodness! More details in "308 pet loads" thread.

Take care, and have a great weekend,
Rich

The Bushmaster
February 25, 2005, 10:34 PM
Congrats cajuncoona and you too have a good weekend. I might be able to shoot some, but I will be in the saddle on a high ridge one day this weekend.

Wildalaska
February 26, 2005, 02:04 AM
That 1200 is sumpin else aint it...

By the way Cajun, no lie, all I shoot in my 6.5 is Lapua and once my load for the ssg is finalized, its all lapua from then on....

WildtheultimatebrassAlaska

redneck2
February 26, 2005, 08:55 AM
we still haven't gotten the post yet where..

I shoot 1/2" 300 yard groups all day with my factory ____ (Rem, Win, Savage).....

and that's over my shoulder using a mirror in a hailstorm at night

:D

The Bushmaster
February 26, 2005, 11:00 AM
Right Redneck2. and my Browning A bolt shoots 1/4 inch at 300 yards and it is just sitting on the bench when it does it all by itself. Mean while I can have a conflab with friends. Time to break out the shovel and start shoveling.

Bullet
February 26, 2005, 10:11 PM
Quote
(New box of Laupa 308 brass: do I have to fireform before loading?)


I believe you have to load it before fireforming.

Steve Smith
February 27, 2005, 02:33 AM
308win, I would not have said it that way if I didn't know the difference between a man who can use what Lapua brass gives, and a beginner who spends more than he needs to. I can back up my words with my shooting, and I know what it takes to use the Lapua advantage. It takes a better shooter than I am, and I am a Master Highpower shooter. If I cannot glean the difference between Lake City and Lapua at 600 yards while AVERAGING a 99% score (198 out of 200...my offhand scores are what hold me back, not my 600 yard scores) then a casual shooter certainly cannot.

Wildalaska
February 27, 2005, 01:46 PM
hmm not to throw gas on this but in my loads I have gotten better groups with Lapua brass

I guess the reason ya buy Laapua is its more consistent

WildjustanoteAlaska

Richard.Howe
February 27, 2005, 10:37 PM
Wild, that's my experience as well. Using identical loads, but using my leftover Win brass from expended factory loads, I have noticed a small -- almost acedemic -- increase in consistency both in velocity stdev as well as accuracy while using Laupa.

Steve, if this was a paper-punching excercise, I'd agree that my question is clearly posed by a beginner with too much money and a nearly irrelevant topic. In which case, a follow-up snub would have been appropriate.

But -- this particular question is posed by a hunter with an exceptionally strong belief in, and dedication to, the idea of ethical killing. At the end of the day, when all is said and done re: "communing with nature," etc., a hunt will result in the death of a living thing.

As such, it's my duty as a responsible sportsman to make darn sure that my equipment is perfect.

And my equipment includes my ammo.

And my ammo includes my brass.

:)

Steve Smith
February 27, 2005, 11:31 PM
The difference between Lapua and more "standard" brass is the weight consistency, and therefore volumetric consistency. For example, the .223. LC brass will vary from about 89 grains to 91 grains per piece, with dilligent weighing you can get yourself down to a set of brass that fits into a .5 grain group. The Lapua will already be there. That's the difference. FWIW, I shoot my scores without weighing brass. No, it's not a Bullseye competition, so I don't have to have one bullet on top of another (as I am a position shooter, my physical margin of error is larger than that of the ammunition anyway.) A VERY good shooter, who can exceed my abilities, can see the difference of Lapua. The benchrest shooter, at shorter distances may also, but if that same shooter picks his gun up and uses it in his hands, he is now at the mercy of his own abilities.

I submit that part of your equipment is YOU as well, and the error that your body induces into the system is greater than the error that exists between Lapua brass and another brand. I also submit that you would be better served to work on your own off-the-bench technique than to spend much time at all at the bench. In fact, I would say that until your field position shooting is as consistent as your benchrest position, your efforts at the bench are acedemic. But that's my $0.02.

We have the same issue in Highpower. Guys will spend for things that only add an infintessimal advantage to the High Master even when they are on the bottom rung. The ever-present advice to everyone, all the way up the ladder, is to spend more time shooting and less time worrying about the nitnoid things.

The Bushmaster
February 27, 2005, 11:53 PM
I'm sorry, Mr. Steve Smith, but I don't understand why you persist in taking such an arrogant stand on this subject. Your prowess with a rifle is to be commended were I to witness this feat. I don't understand why you won't allow cajuncoona the fun of using the same brass you do. Is there something wrong with a regular shooter using high class brass? :rolleyes:

Wildalaska
February 28, 2005, 03:24 AM
with dilligent weighing you can get yourself down to a set of brass that fits into a .5 grain group. The Lapua will already be there.

Worth it for me. :what: :neener: I got enough trouble jest loadin em, the hell with weighing em//////

PS...In the 6.5x55 I have to use lapua since dimensionally, my understanding it is "proper" as opposed to Aerican brass.....plus Norma costs too much :)

WildandishootsobadineedeveryadvantageicangetAlaska

Steve Smith
February 28, 2005, 04:06 AM
Of course not, and as I stated before, he has it now, he might as well use it. The point is that quite acceptable shooting can be done without the extra expense of Lapua brass.

You would not have to witness anything in person, the NRA keeps their records and keeps them public. My shooting career is recorded and is open to the public. As I said before, I am merely a Master, not a High Master, so I only shoot 94-97% of all possible points at this time, but I intend to correct that. For the record, I won't be correcting it with fancy brass, but more time on the range, pulling the trigger.

Richard.Howe
February 28, 2005, 02:04 PM
I'm done here. Thank y'all very much for the input. Now, I'm off to collect dinner. :D

Take care,
Rich

Zak Smith
February 28, 2005, 02:49 PM
Here's another perspective. If volumetric consistency or lack thereof is manifest in case volume differences, those differences may be reflected in deviation in muzzle velocity and downrange trajectory.

For example, I ran an experiment in QuickLoad in which I started with a baseline 308WIN load (175SMK 44.5gr VARGET) at its nominal water capacity (56.0gr in QL), then swept the capacity up and down in 1gr H2O capacity increments. Assuming the load is sighted in with the a nominal capacity load and shot with -1 .. +1 increments (ie water capaicty is from 55-57gr):

_BC_ _MV_ 0 200 400 600 800 | YARDS
0.496 2748 > -1.89 0.16 -22.28 -77.69 -178.19 | > 175SMK/44.5VGT 55.0gr H2O
0.496 2726 > -1.89 -0.01 -23.03 -79.63 -182.20 | > 175SMK/44.5VGT 56.0gr H2O
0.496 2704 > -1.89 -0.18 -23.81 -81.63 -186.32 | > 175SMK/44.5VGT 57.0gr H2O

In other words, a 1gr variation in water capacity should change POI by about 1/2 minute at 800 yards.

-z

If you enjoyed reading about "New box of Laupa 308 brass: do I have to fireform before loading?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!