[hrb02]

I'm looking for a little guidance and help from the group.

I need (really, I do) a 1911 for target/bullseye shooting. I don't plan on using it for carry and doubt I'll use it for anything else.

I have narrowed it down, I think, to either the Kimber Gold Match II or the Les Baer Premier II--both available in the PRK. Let's assume they are close enough that price doesn't matter (choke...cough...gasp).

What are the pluses? Minuses? Quality concerns? Customer service issues? Is one manufacturer better? Is one gun better than the other?

I would like to have something that can outshoot me, so I can grow into it. That is, I am willing to pony up some $ now, so I don't feel the need to in a couple of years. Just don't tell my wife that... :uhoh:

Thanks in advance,
hrb02

[Brass Balls]

I'm fortunate to have several of both brands. Under a grand I rountinely recommend Kimbers. However if you can afford to spend more the Baer is a better gun.

When shooting combat style, engaging multiple targets, doing doubles & triples, shooting on the move the Kimber will do everything the Baer will. Even for bullseye shooting the Kimber will do well, but the Baer is noticeably better.

What you're paying for on the Baer is a hand fit slide, frame, barrel, bushing, trigger components and no MIM parts.

If you're strictly going to be shooting bullseye you might want to spend the extra coin to get the 1.5" group. Baer guarantees these to shoot 1.5" 10 shot groups at 50 yards.

[Pointman1776]

If you're in the LB price range, may I suggest an Ed Brown? imho, a much better buy than the LB.

I own Kimbers and Springers, and have examined in minute detail and shot both the LB and EB, and I'm definitely going for the EB next.

Good luck!

[dmftoy1]

I've got a Kimber Gold Match II and it's a damn accurate gun. That being said, if a LB was the same money I'd probably buy it just to have something different. :)

Have a good one,
Dave

[MaterDei]

I don't have a LB but I do have a Kimber. I love my Kimber but given the choice, based on reputation, I'd get the LB.

Good Luck.

[Kruzr]

I've got a couple of Kimbers and a couple of Baers (and a Brown.) Since you can't get a new full size Brown in the PRK, I'd get the PII. Kimbers and Baers are different classes of guns. Kimber makes great guns and I also recommend them for a 1911 under $1000. But once you cross into the $1300+ range, I'd go with a Baer every time until you get up to Brown territory. Then it's a model by model choice.
My Baers not only shoot better, they feel better in your hand. Fit and finish are by hand so the Kimbers can't quite compete there. Some of the higher end Kimbers do have some hand fitting but the slide to frame fit on the Baers is hard to beat. Baers are tight. The PII's aren't as bad as the TRS's but you will still need a steel bushing wrench to break it down (and that's with the barrel pushed forward, not in the lock-up position in the bushing.)

Get the PII, you won't be sorry.

[standingbear]

les baer :)

[Arc-Lite]

I would go with the Baer, much nicer over all, and in the future, worth their weight in gold.

[Sergeant Sabre]

Speaking as a Kimber owner, if I was going to spend that much money on a pistol, it would be a semi-custom like a Baer, Wilson, or Brown.

[Longbow]

Rock River Arms! ;)

[Kruzr]

Rock River Arms!
Not approved in Calif. Nice guns...what I call a Baer clone (started by guys who left LB) with other makers parts. They feel just like Baers IMO. Never shot one. The Rock River guys at the SHOT show didn't seem too interested in getting them approved in the PRK.

[Black Majik]

The Baers are better guns than the Kimbers, go for the Les Baer.

The Kimber is a great gun though, but IMO they aren't in the same class/level.

[9mmepiphany]

get the kimber now and save up for an ed brown...you can always sell the kimber. if you start with a baer, you may think you've already gotten the best...and you'll be cheating yourself out of a brown

i recently got a SW 1911SC to hold me over till i've got enough for ed brown's carry kobra (the only one approved for CA). whenever i falter, i just have to look at the pictures by ken lunde.

[1966]

For the money it is hard to beat a Kimber.

[farscott]

Given the choice of the two models and a stated desire to shoot Bullseye, I would choose a blued carbon steel Baer Premier II. To me, Bullseye is all about shooting 50-yard groups, and a great trigger is needed to shoot good groups at that distance. The Kimber firing pin safety, which may be acceptable for other uses, is a PITA for Bullseye. Firing pin safeties and Bullseye should be mutually exclusive.

While the Premier II is a great target pistol, Baer makes a few other pistols more suitable for Bullseye. The National Match Hardball pistol is a good Bullseye pistol and is CA-approved. There is also a version built for wadcutters only, but this model does not seem to be CA-approved.

[fgr39]

farscott, the series II saftey on the kimber has no affect on the trigger pull. It is a differnt beast than the series 80 by colt. I have had some serious IPSC (open class) guys shoot my stock custom II and swear that I had a trigger job and wanted to know who did it. I told them all I had done was shoot the thing and keep it clean but they wouldn't believe me.

[Nando Aqui]

Scott,
I recently acquired a new Kimber SST2 and so far so good, but I use it mostly for IDPA.
Would you mind explaining what you said, below, a bit further for 'the uneducated'?

The Kimber firing pin safety, which may be acceptable for other uses, is a PITA for Bullseye. Firing pin safeties and Bullseye should be mutually exclusive.
Thanks

[farscott]

If memory serves me properly, the Kimber firing pin safety is deactivated by the grip safety as opposed to the Series '80 system that is deactivated by the trigger. In theory, the Kimber firing pin safety should be deactivated long before the grip safety is fully depressed. But there are tolerances, and the firing pin safety does not always get fully deactivated until the grip safety bottoms out. In a long string of fire, this may result in more fatigue than is necessary, lowering one's score. For me, fatigue is a serious issue when trying to shoot for accuracy during a Bullseye match, and anything to reduce or eliminate fatigue is a good thing. In that sense, the Kimber firing pin safety is a possible PITA.

For IDPA and IPSC, the firing pin safeties are not an issue. For Bullseye, the accuracy requirements are much greater. Bullseye pistols need to be able to shoot less than three-inch groups at fifty yards. The triggers on Bullseye pistols reflect that need. They are different from IDPA and IPSC triggers. The trigger on my 1960 National Match smithed by Austin Behlert breaks at a tiny bit over 3.5 pounds with no perceptible overtravel.

Can you shoot a Kimber in Bullseye? Yes. Is it the optimum pistol for the competition? No.

[HankB]

I have a LB PII and have found it to be both exceptionally accurate and exceptionally reliable. Other folks I know with LB pistols have found the same to be true.

Kimbers are very good for the money. They had some problems early on, but current production seems to be much improved. Bad ones still come out, but they're quite rare.

To touch on other brands mentioned . . .

Wilsons are, to my mind, overpriced and the quality of the delivered pistols seems to vary quite a bit. (Metalwork varies. Reliability varies. Durability of finish varies.)

The Brown pistols I've seen have all been uniformly excellent . . . but in a side-by-side comparison with Les Baer pistols, it looks like at least several hundred dollars of the Brown's higher price is due solely to having the Brown name on the pistol.

[fgr39]

farscott, now I see your point. I thought at first the you were confusing the series 80 and the series II. I can see how fatigue would have a big effect on bullseye. Can you pin a grip saftey in bullseye?

back to the original question, I have never shot bullseye matches but I can tell you my kimber is very accuate. I haven't shot a LB and the only one I have seen at an IDPA match ripped the claw of the extractor off before the end of the match, it was probably a fluke.

[30 cal slob]

I shoot my Kimbers more than my Baers.

Baers still have those barrel bushing thingies you need to turn before you disassemble the weapon.

Kimbers and Ed Browns break down easier for cleaning.

Okay, so I'm a lazy slob.

My $0.02: Baers are better than Kimbers in terms of fit and finish overall.

But for the money, you can't beat a Kimber, provided you get one that makes you happy (as mentioned a gazillion times before, most stock Kimbers have a bit of trigger play that need to be smithed).

If PRK eventually gets an approved version of the Ed Brown full-size, save up your pennies and make the investment in an Ed Brown.

Wonder why nobody mentioned Wilson Combat? :neener:

[rick_reno]

I've got a Kimber Gold Match, series 1 (it's older) and a Les Baer PII with the 1.5 inch package. I shoot bullseye too. I got the LB to replace the Kimber for this kind of shooting - while I can't find an accuracy difference in them when I shoot, the alibis have gone to zero with the Baer. It's the most reliable 1911 I've ever owned (and I have others). It has never failed to feed, fire and eject - and I shoot it a lot. The Kimber has been a nightmare in the area of reliability. I bought both guns new.

[farscott]

Can you pin a grip safety in bullseye? The rules say all safety devices must operate as designed, which I have always understood to mean that the grip safety may not be pinned.

[hrb02]

All,

Very helpful info. Thanks!

Looks like I'm off to the store to: 1) Pay for the LB; 2) wait 'till my 30 days are up from my last handgun purchase; 3) do the paperwork; 4) wait 10 more days; and 5) finally pick up my gun...ahh life in the PRK. :banghead:

As a final question, anybody know if Ed Brown plans on getting any of the full size models approved in the PRK?

[45crittergitter]

I have a Baer, but no Kimber. IMHO, the Baer is significantly overpriced. Also, his 8 round mags (followers) are junk.

[eclipse1]

if the price doesnt matter, ill go with the baer..

What you're paying for on the Baer is a hand fit slide, frame, barrel, bushing, trigger components and no MIM parts.

[kikilee]

Spend the extra money and get the Baer.

[Ankeny]

I have a Kimber Gold Match (Stainless series one) and a Les Baer PII. I prefer the Baer, but my next gun will be a Nighthawk, Brown, or a Wilson.

For IDPA and IPSC, the firing pin safeties are not an issue.

I beg to differ. Shooting under speed, against the clock, with a high grip, makes the series II stuff on a Kimber (and grip safetys in general) a PITA for a lot of shooters.

[Longbow]

Not approved in Calif. Nice guns....

Okay...get an Ed Brown then. :)

[Peter M. Eick]

Look at the resale price of a Baer and of a Kimber. As a Baer owner (no Kimbers here) I am happy to say that the "hit" on the resale market is small for a Baer, yet the Kimber seems "significant" to me.

Get the Baer!

[Nitram68]

You usually get what you pay for. Baer better but is more money. Kimber is great as well just not as good. Persoally the Kimber would more than suit my needs...

[Longbow]

a pre-firing pin safety Kimber would be a good choice too!