City or Country for safety if SHTF???


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Topgun
March 9, 2003, 02:32 AM
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=12698

Made me think of this subject. Conventional wisdom says the country is better.

Tactically, I'm not so sure.

Country would dictate an isolated location that would be easier to penetrate with no interference from a close by ally.
All food would have to have been stored well in advance and kept edible.

The country would probably be the first place marauders would head.

City on the other hand would allow close support from neighbors and a ready supply of "draftees" (carefully chosen) who are of like mind. They would most likely already be close and not have to fight to get to the country location. (Not talking about an already planned commune or compound like Waco)

Defense of city would have narrower fields of fire rather than approach from 360 degrees.

Food if not stored would be available for looting (we are not discussing a situation of any sort of order here)

Extra ammo would be "findable" in city by well planned raids. Also medical supplies and facilities.

Both situations assume that an intelligent, ruthless, able survivor would be leading your group no matter which area you choose.

Opinions?

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Cal4D4
March 9, 2003, 03:30 AM
I think it all depends on what scenario SHTF means to you. Societal breakdown in a city means a large concentration of people are gonna get real hungry real quick when the supply lines go down. In the country, anything edible will be harvested as populations search outward for food. In the country a well equipped enemy can bring conventional military tactics down on big areas without much concern. No military force relishes "house to house" combat. The history of people is a history of safety in numbers. All that said, a smallish band of survivors in a rural setting can slip unnoticed where a larger group in a city would have target value. If you want to be a post apocalyptic leader, stay urban. Lots of followers and places/people to raid are everywhere. If you think you can go it alone on your rural skills, country with alot of natural cover. You may not even need to post a guard if conditions are harsh enough.

cratz2
March 9, 2003, 05:08 AM
The wife's dad has a cabin about 40 minutes off a major highway about half way between Indianapolis and the Illinois border. About 30 minutes away from our new house using exclusively back country roads. 3,400 sq ft on a small mountain shared with one other individual he's known for about 25 years. Orchard, large stocked pond, deer are seen almost every day when you go lookin' for 'em. Electricity and gas generator. I have a few guns down there and a couple thousand rounds of ammo on the off chance mine were confiscated or I was unable to bring mine.

I'd much rather take my chances out there than the west side of Indy. ;)

Jamie B
March 9, 2003, 08:58 AM
That's why we live there!

We have a well stocked pantry, generator, stocked gasoline.
There is abundant wildlife, and since the population density is much less than the city, there is a lower probability that we would be hit first (higher city population density would result in a higher kill ratio for invaders, so cities would be hit first).

Everyone in my area has guns, dogs, or both!

We also are not dependent upon city water and sewage since we all have our own individual wells and septic systems.

This is the reason that we left the ccity 22 years ago.

I can also walk out my back door and shoot anytime that I want to!

Jamie

Tamara
March 9, 2003, 09:00 AM
If by "SHTF", you mean "TEOTWAWKI", bear in mind that the average city has enough food stored for maybe a week after the trucks stop rolling. Them grocery store shelves will get mighty empty, mighty fast.

Also, why do you think that "country" means "lone farm", and not "small town", "rural farming community", et cetera? A setting like that makes it easier to coordinate things with your neighbours, since you know them all. I know what kind of emergency rifles my neighbours use; heck we sometimes go in on ammo deals together.

AK103K
March 9, 2003, 09:34 AM
I think the country will be the better place all around. Then again, I live in rural farm lands. Tacticaly, the city is a nightmare. What your saying is easy to defend also allows someone to get very close without detection. It also provides them with plenty of cover to move on you with. Here in the country, at least open farm land anyway, they would have to cover open ground to reach you, and against people who have been raised with guns and hunting and for the most part can reasonably shoot. They also have the advantage of knowing the lay of the land and how to use it. They also have the luxury of doing nothing and just fading away if they so choose. Believe it or dont, but there are quite a few people out here, though farther apart, but you really arent alone. Most know each other on adjoining properties and most have at some point hunted together or on each others lands, so we know whats up and where. They also will help each other when needed. One thing I notice a lot from people from the city is, they have no idea just how much open land is really out here. They are so accustomed to looking just off the road and not beyond. Out here the open land and wood lots go on and on, not just to the first tree row. The other thing is how city people react to the countryside. A few years back we had some city boys who thought it would be easy pickings to rob some of the places out here. When they encountered resistance and tried to run, they quickly got stuck in the big ditches we have on the edge of the roads here. When they bailed and ran, they stayed close to the road instead of running for the woods across the fields. They were easily rounded up. If they had hit those woods and stayed tight, they probably would have been a lot harder to find, if at all if they kept their heads. Then again, they were city boys. :) If your dealing with "maruders" from the city, who were born and rasied there, I dont think you will have to much of a problem dealing with them. The roads here are funnel points and can be controled pretty easily. If you dont know what your doing off the road, especially at the wrong time of year, even 4 wheel drive wont really help, so getting off the road and moving really isnt that easy. One person who knows the land with a good rifle can hold off all but determined people who really want him, and even then, why would you try and get them all when one shot will slow or stop them while you slip off and do it again. Once sucked off the road and into the woods and area you know, they are at the disadvantage. Hell, they were at the disadvantage when they left the city. :) Even if you were forced from your home or strong point, they now have to deal with it and at some point have to try to leave, or at least come out on the porch.(hillbillies will know what I mean here :D) It is your local area and they are still at a disadvantage as they are now trapped and you probably have help coming. Yea boy, I think I'll just stay out here with the rest of the "dumb hillbillies", you can take care of the citys. :D

SodaPop
March 9, 2003, 10:03 AM
bear in mind that the average city has enough food stored for maybe a week after the trucks stop rolling. Them grocery store shelves will get mighty empty, mighty fast.

During the last major snow storm we had two weeks ago, all of the store shelves were empty in 48hrs in my area. I think we got about 24inches of snow and they didn't get deliveries for 48hrs.

Pretty scary.......

riverdog
March 9, 2003, 10:24 AM
Face it, this will be a come-as-you-are party. If you are in the city you're stuck there so make the best of it. There are more neighbors, but are they friend or foe? I live in suburbia these days and I hardly know my neighbors. I'd be starting from scratch putting any kind of mutual protection group together here, and we're right next door. It can work, but I suspect that many will choose to join others on the interstate parking lots going nowhere.

In the country, folks have many of those day-to-day issues already sorted out 'cause they deal with it while hunting, fishing, working around the farms. But it's really a question of where you are when the bubble goes up. Do the best you can.

Double Naught Spy
March 9, 2003, 10:30 AM
I am sorry, maybe I missed something here. Is this for the giant spiders SHTF, aliens from Mars SHTF (aka When Mars Attacks SHTF), Red Dawn SHTF, NBC attack SHTF, drunken Mardi Gras naked people SHTF, natural disaster SHTF, home intruder SHTF, invasion of US by conventional troops SHTF, PETA SHTF, or the My Mother-In-Law is Coming SHTF?

While there is some crossover in materials, methods, and locations, each definitely requires some specialty considerations. For example, the 'Whan Mars Attacks' SHTF will require a stockpile of Slim Whitman albums and the ability to broadcast them quite loudly. The same albums can be used as part of psychological warfare against the drunken Mardi Gras naked people as well, but is completely useless against giant spiders and natural disasters.

Jamie B
March 9, 2003, 10:46 AM
Excellent points, AK!

You are right - even though I don't all of my neighbors, we all know what vehicles that each other drive. We can easily spot 'outsiders', and we look out for each other. When someone runs through a neighbor's fence, we call the land owner and let them know.

It is a strange code to explain to outsiders - while we do not play cards weekly, I know who lives where, what they drive, where their property lines are, and when strange cars are lurking in the area. (The FBI was staking out a guy several years ago, who was stealing construction heavy equipment, and lived several miles away. When the goverment boobs were sitting 'undercover' and parked at an intersection, we all saw them, and knew who they were simply 'cause they were very obvious 'non-locals').

We are also very aware of weather patterns, and the direction of arriving storms. Since our vision range is miles, as opposed to a city block thaat is lined with tall buildings, we are able to see weather before it arrives. Our kids can walk outside at night, when it is pitch-black, and see stars, planets, and the Milky Way. This is very surprising to the city people that we know since their nights are clouded (pardon the pun) with lights and noise.

I till gardens for my neighbors, at no charge of course, because I will receive help from them in other areas. The 6' tiller I bought for my tractor has won me many friends, and I enjoy the things that I learn from others. I have learned to greatly respect farmers simply for their wide expanse of knowledge.

One of the local farmers, who had become a great friend, seemed to be a real 'stand-offish' guy when I first met him years ago. I found out that he has a low tolerance for fools, and does not say much until he gets to know and trust you, which takes a LONG time. It is very hard to earn acceptance, but once you do, you're in for life! Wouldn't have it any other way!

We find ourselves telling the kids when we go to town to 'be careful since we are in the city'. 'Nuff said, eh??

Jamie

stevelyn
March 9, 2003, 10:56 AM
Cities and city dwellers are too dependent on the govt planned and approved infrastructure. When that breaks down, there will three major concerns. Food, water, and sanitation. Food would probably disappear within a week. Water and sanitation have a symbiotic relationship in urban areas and one usually dosen't work without the other. It is very likely in most urban areas there won't be any alternative sources of clean water for washing, drinking, or flushing the turlet. This would create a sanitation and public health nightmare.
A lesser, but still important concern is power and fuel sources. Electricity runs virtually everything in a modern home to include heating and cooking. Like the food, fuel reserves would probably be gone in a matter of days. If the breakdown occurs in the winter months especially in northern, western, midwest and northeast regions, there will be another set of problems. How to keep everything including yourself from freezing. People who have prepard for natural disasters by stockpiling fuel and keeping a generator on hand will be able to stave off the effects depending on how long their fuel supplies last, how often and how long it's run and if they have the means of defending their supplies from raiders and desperate, but unprepared people just trying to survive.
Those living in rural areas are going to fare many times better and more comfortably than their urban counterparts because just by virtue of living outside the city limits they are already living a more self-sufficient lifestyle. Most already have in place alternative food, fuel, sanitation, water, and power sources in place and use them daily as part of their lifestyles.
Tactically speaking, a lone home in a rural area would be harder to defend and would require having LP-OPs placed in different vantage points to act as an early warning. And creativty and imagination can be used to defend property by booby traps punji pits and other things that would slow down a group of raiders. However as Sun Tzu said, deception is a part of warfare. Translated into Murphy's Law of combat, "Try to look unimportant, the bad guys may be low on ammo". Stockpile lots of supplies and don't appear to be living very well in hard times. In a rural area avoiding contact should be the foremost strategy. And any raids should be conducted as far away from hearth and home as possible to draw the bad guys away from your area to make them think the problem is elsewhere. In an urban area the strategy should be fast, brutal, demoralizing, guerrilla warefare.

45R
March 9, 2003, 11:10 AM
Topgun-
IF SHTF we all meet at YSA. Gather Food supplies then head out to the country. The city is too populated. I'd rather take my chances out in the boonies then worry about social break down in the city. Less people to worry about and I can find my own sources of food. (Fish, birds, pigs ...so forth)

:)

45R

Skunkabilly
March 9, 2003, 01:25 PM
I'm getting in my CRV and driving to Runt & Oleg's!

pax
March 9, 2003, 02:57 PM
China has at least twice offered to bomb L.A.

Haven't heard them offering to bomb East Podunk yet.

pax

Country folks can survive... -- Hank Williams jr.

Topgun
March 9, 2003, 03:13 PM
Guess I meant "community" rather than "city."

Wasn't thinking of high density urban inner-city but rather a populated civil area as opposed to the lone house in the boonies.

Croyance
March 9, 2003, 05:29 PM
In the city, you will run out of water if you do not have your own well. In some suburbs, people use well water, but they still need electricity to get the water. Without water, you will be dead in a week.
Where are you finding these supplies of ammunition? The gun and sports stores will be looted early on. They have a lot of supplies useful for survival beyond guns. Don't be fooled by all those bad post apocalypse movies, there will be no stores sitting full of guns, ammo, and camping gear.
How are you training new recruits without a lot of ammo?
An individual location may be theoretically more defensable in an urban area, but I guarentee you will be defending it. Sniping and skirmishes will whittle away at your guards and resources.
The countryside has places to forage.
Who cans and preserves more food (long term food supplies laid away) people in the city of country?
With the absence of gas and electricity, pack animals are a great thing to have. Where is that in the city?
Even an hours drive from a city is isolated enough. That is a long walk for most people.
The defensable thing is taken care of by good neighbors and dogs.

telewinz
March 9, 2003, 06:06 PM
I would stay in a very SMALL city, 7000 or so people. Much less or much more and it becomes a burden. Safety in numbers and resources.

BIGR
March 9, 2003, 06:34 PM
The country will be the best place to be. I know the land and the mountains. I know where I can find food and water. I have places to hide where a billy goat can only go. Its just like that song you heard on the radio ... a country boy can survive.. Thank God I'M a country boy. :)

andy
March 9, 2003, 07:01 PM
The most likely type of disaster that will happen around here in the Seattle area would be an earthquake. We had a good shake up two years ago. The first thing that happened is that everyone left their job and tried to make their way home across damaged highways and bridges. All the roads were choked with traffic and you could forget about getting anywhere. I did not see roving bands of looters, guns fights, or desperate people trying to steal food and water from each other. People were amazingly patient and polite. I suspect they would act the same in any other type of disaster. When this happens again, and geologists say it will, it could be a lot worse. My plan, if I am at home and my apt. building does not come down on my head, is to sit tight. I have enough food for a couple of weeks and there is a lake nearby if I get desperate for water. If I am at work, which is about four miles from where I live, I will walk home and stay there. I don't know what people are like where you live but here we don't kill each other for food. This city is as safe a place as you are going to find.

biere
March 9, 2003, 07:02 PM
Ah city life.

Where sewers must flow to remove waste.
Where city water or bottled water are the only drinking water around, unless you catch rain which might be polluted. Or you filter puddle water.
Where food has to be trucked in to support a population so dense there is no way for them to support themselves.
Where garbage trucks must roll in order to reduce that build of waste.
Where so many rely on electric base board heat and all the other things that cease to work when there is no electric.
Where so many live in places without yards so they could not even plant a tiny garden of their own if they wanted too.
Where buildings and streets absorb the summer heat all day and release it at night creating their own mini-climate.
Where any local wildlife would have how many people after it? Same goes for the rare park with trees that would have how many people thinking firewood when they looked at it?

If someone wants to live in a city, they are welcome too.

I prefer my land, I love low population density. For my 9 acres, the population is one, and I consider that a tad crowded at times.

Safety First
March 9, 2003, 07:36 PM
I live 10 miles from a small town and 35 miles from a fairly large town and I live so far back in the woods I have to pipe in sun-shine (just kidding about sunshine) But there is only one way in and way out and a large dog with extremely good hearing to give me early warning. I keep a good supply of food,water,wood for heating and fair amount of ammo. I have rifles,shotguns and plenty of turkey,deer,etc..I feel much more secure here than the city I moved from 9 years ago..Anything can happen to us whether in the city or country,but at least I FEEL safer here whether I am or not. I just hope and pray that the illegals who have made it into the country to harm us are caught before they can cause wide spread harm to the population..so I say pray but prepare for the worst and then do the best you can, that is all anyone can do..

Jack19
March 9, 2003, 08:15 PM
If you're in the city, my advice is to accumulate enough provisions, of every sort, so as to allow you to BOIP (Bug Out In Place) for at least a few days.

If you think that you're going to suddenly make a mad dash for the "country" when TSHTF, I guarantee you you will have trouble doing so, both on the journey (due to the stressed competitive types you will meet along the way) and when you get where it is you're going (as those "country" dwellers will be concerned with their own survival, and a whole lot less about the hordes flooding from the cities.)

If you haven't moved to the country yet, or bought property there and gotten to know your neighbors, or, at minimum, have a destination at the end of your journey that does not involve using the resources of someone you will displace, your welcome will be an unpleasant one.

Stevie-Ray
March 9, 2003, 08:40 PM
When the fecal material hits the rotary oscillator, I would hope to be in the city. Suburbs, anyway. More buildings to hide behind, more crap to be made defensible. Harder to see what you're shooting at, of course, but I assume we're talking about defending yourself against the hordes of scum that would seek to take what you've earned, rather than hunting. I don't intend to stay in the city after I retire, but then I won't have much to do except buy guns and practice all day with them and teach any of my neighbors the same.:D The country is less defensible, but occurences of this type are far more rare. Bottom line is you can't escape evil. The brigands of this world will find you if they've a mind to. The best defense is to be prepared for any possibility, paranoid as that may sound.

Don Gwinn
March 9, 2003, 10:42 PM
You've got to be kidding. More buildings? Well, OK, if that sort of thing is important to you. I can build a building if I need one. I live in the middle of miles and miles of corn, beans, livestock and wild game. There's a creek about a mile thataway (points north) and a whole lot of firewood. I know my neighbors and know I can trust most of them. Most of the ones I can't trust are notorious around here and have been for years.

Marauders will head for the country? Well, no offense, but if every "marauder" in Macoupin County stays here and half the "marauders" in St. Louis come thisaway, St. Louis will still have us beat.

As pointed out above, in a city, the S does not have to hit the F to end life as you know it. The sewers stop working, the main arteries in and out get destroyed or blocked, the trucks or trains or ships stop running, electricity goes out in the winter, etc etc etc.

Standing Wolf
March 9, 2003, 10:51 PM
Most large cities of my experience are already war zones.

bad_dad_brad
March 9, 2003, 11:46 PM
I would head towards where my folks live, in the Mackinaw river valley. Plenty of game, fish, crops, and water. Any city is no where to be if the SHTF.

Kaylee
March 10, 2003, 02:11 PM
Most practical I suppose would be if you're in the city, make friends with someone in the country, and vice versa. That way if something goes down terrible in one place, there's always someplace each can run to if necessary.

That said.... I don't like cities in the best of times. In the worst of times they sound like pure he..um... heck.

Finally, I think Tam is on to something .. small rural community offers the best balance of adantages for that sort of thing if you can deal with the disadvantages of small town life.

If the only reason you're there is to "get away from SHTF" you're likely to be looked on as the local fruitcake, and people do talk. Further, don't expect much help if you're not part of the community already (meaning, actively part of the community, not just living in the town limits) if something goes down.

-K

Leatherneck
March 10, 2003, 02:32 PM
Ever heard "A Country Boy Can Survive?" :D

TC
TFL Survivor

bogie
March 10, 2003, 02:35 PM
1) Make friends with your neighbors. That's what they're there for.

2) If you're in an urban area, plan on staying put for a while. Vehicles on the road, assuming mass unrest, will likely remain stationary for long periods of time, and may possibly be seen as targets. After the first wave of nastiness, you may want to consider visiting someone you know in the country. Arrive with gifts, and be prepared to work.

3) If you're within 60 or so miles of an urban concentration, assume that you'll get visitors. You can either be polite, or you can be nasty, but you've gotta be one of the two, because if your place looks unoccupied, it will be occupied. Street gangs, etc., may be more organized than you would think...

Personally, since I'm in St. Louis, I'm gonna head for Macoupin County (grin). I just hope that the van will hold all the stuff...

Ebbtide
March 10, 2003, 03:35 PM
Okay, I'll breakdown and respond to a SHTF thread, its a first.

Both have advantages. I'm betting on the city as that is where I live. It would be my guess that with whatever SHTF happens, the city folks will have services restored first.

On the issue of food, where do you get your food in the country (aside from wilderness living where you can find your own with little competition), my guess is the same grocery chain I get mine.

ehenz

LawDog
March 10, 2003, 05:46 PM
City on the other hand would allow close support from neighbors and a ready supply of "draftees" (carefully chosen) who are of like mind.

Two words: Kitty Genovese

Mental image: LA after the Rodney King verdict. Now try to picture the same in Bugscuffle, TX (Pop: 4,500)

LawDog

labgrade
March 10, 2003, 06:39 PM
Topgun,

"Conventional wisdom says ... "

& since this has never happened here, what's "conventional" about it? Something to consider - nobody has any clue what to expect, or how to deal with it.

All depends on what your SHTF scenaro is.

"Country" is different. We live about 5-8 miles outside of a fairly smallish town, but well with the corridors of I-25. It's not real farmland by any stretch, but does have its goodly smattering of deer/elk/stuff AND pretty nifty ridges that are natural barriers - we grow stuff though. We have a goodly lake 1/4 mile away. We're in a kinda "rural suburbia" - with natural fortifications.

Anything "Y2K-wise," I figured to blow off electricity entirely = we can get by w/o that, go a bit "more countryfied."

There's food that'll stay well 'n good a long, long time.

"The country would probably be the first place marauders would head."

I would do everything (ditch the roads & post rifle sentries (5 max would do it here) I could to prevent the hoards to get here. There's a "but" here though.

"Food ... available for looting ... Extra ammo would be "findable" in city by well planned raids. "

So you'd start looting? & by forming your own gang/s, huh?

I'd suggest a prepared plan of survival by hunkering down & let the cannibals sort it all out first. After that, you & other "more humane" types may want to reestablish some sort of "order" & start the "re-living" process.

Somehow, thinking of armed excursions into others' property doesn't really bode well in my mind as a survivable, or morally justifited, continuance of existance. Maybe "git some" (of yer own first) so you don't "have to?"

SHTF has so many aspects to it that nobody can even conceive them all. Best you can do is have the skill-sets enough, have stuff on-hand, etc. that you have a decent enough chance of weathering the storm.

Going overt is not one of my priorities.

Assuming the "hoards from the cities," I would hope we could prevent them from getting here - just make a sane pocket. Likely, my idiotic neighbors would help pave a road for them. By ditching & "maintaining" two "entrances," we could preserve close to 100+ square miles of prime deer/elk/watershed (3 main lakes w/attendant water-critters). Plenty good enough for who lives here now, but certainly not enough for a 100X weekend warrior-type increase (not to mention their bad habbits).

Even in the "worst scenarios," we've a private plane to go to a much more private area ..... & I don't even care for that neither.

I do go on .... ;)

Topgun
March 10, 2003, 06:40 PM
"This sleepy little Texas town of 4,500 was completely overwhelmed and destroyed early today when 10,000 rioters killed everybody there.
Barbecues are still burning as we speak. Back to you, Geraldo."

Topgun
March 10, 2003, 06:44 PM
Yep. First thing I would do is form my own "gang."

Sorta like the "Minutemen" or the "Revolutionaries" of a couple hundred years ago.

labgrade
March 10, 2003, 07:30 PM
I'm not aware that the "Minutemen" planned to "find" food ... available for looting ... Extra ammo would be "findable" in city by well planned raids."

The implication being that you would start "foraging by any means possible."

"Available for looting" .... fer shame.

Am I to assume that these hapless souls' Ladies might be also taken "for liberties" when it gets too boring during the "fight for the cause?"

Double Naught Spy
March 10, 2003, 11:24 PM
A short time after 9-11, a neighbor of my folks noticed that they had not prepared a "go-box" (bugout bag, or whatever name) and felt they really needed to consider their options should the terrorists start distributing Anthrax from the air, which was the current concern and scare of the time. He explained that while they were not in the city and technically were in the country that they were too close to a city and that they needed a place to go. He showed them a map he had that was the route he was going to take from here in Texas to North Dakota or Montana (sorry, I don't remember which). His route included going through areas that did not show to have roads. Come to find out, he route included nothing larger than a state highway and he preferred farm-to-market type back roads where possible and he was avoiding any civilized area of a population of 25K or more and ideally no larger than 10K. Two days later, he and his gear were gone. Three weeks later, he returned, after he ran out of food and decided that it was safe to be home again.

Personally, if a bunch of city folks are going to try to take over Bugscuffle, Texas, my money is on the residents of Bugscuffle, unless it has been resettled by yuppies and in that case, I could not care less.

My wife's grandfather lives in such a town. He served in Korea. He happened to look out and notice that the business across the street was being burgled. The distance was about 60 yards. It was all that my wife's grandmother could do to keep him from shooting the idiot burglar while on the phone with the cops. The cops rolled up very quickly and had the situation in hand and grand-daddy took the liberty of explaining to the burglar that he had plans for the guy's head on his wall with the deer he had taken at much greater ranges. Grand-daddy is just over 80 and as recently gone with a larger caliber so that the deer are sure to drop because he doesn't like walking after them anymore. He shoots open sights, by the way.

As the song says, "...and a country boy can survive..."

Ala Dan
March 10, 2003, 11:54 PM
My choice would be to defend MY COUNTRY; HOME SWEET HOME U.S. of A.!

FootNote- In choosing my country, I can relocate to another
city; if all goes well?

Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member

waterdog
March 11, 2003, 01:53 AM
From what I recollect, FEMAs plans are to keep city dwellers in the cities.

There won't be any buggin out, initially.

waterdog

Topgun
March 11, 2003, 12:55 PM
labgrade, I admire your ethics but am amazed at your naivete.

IF....our present society were to fall apart, not only by armed catastrophe, but also by economic collapse (highly probable) are you saying you would not want a "gang" of well prepared THR members helping you and themselves to be the ones who would "survive" the initial chaos and still be together to help reestablish some civilized behavior after the wildness subsided?

Just yesterday, both Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac (FNM and FRE on the NYSE) took a BIG hit due to concerns that they MIGHT not be able to cover the mortgages that they are guaranteeing.

Today, they are denying that and stating that they can cover ANY eventuality. We've heard that before.

If you wish, I can send you some sites to watch to see just how close the US economy is to disaster.

If you want a "down and dirty" quickie way to determine the country's financial state, just check the value of the dollar against the Euro. The Euro started at 88 cents and is now around $1.10!

Our (YOUR) money is worth FIVE PERCENT less than it was in November. What are you getting as interest on your savings?

Did you KNOW you were working for nothing?

YES.....I will want a GANG.

Topgun
March 11, 2003, 01:03 PM
Top Stories
Stocks erase gains as long-term rates fall to new low
Tue 11:26am ET - CBS MarketWatch
Stocks erased early gains Tuesday, as positive momentum following the delay of the U.N. vote on the new resolution on Iraq quickly dissipated. A fall in long-term interest rates to 45-year lows reminded investors that it wasn't just about Iraq, but also about a teetering economy.


Posted from TODAY's Yahoo finance site. "a teetering economy"

Ominous words.

TEOTWAWKI is closer than anyone is aware.

With that, I am leaving this thread to die of old age.

bogie
March 11, 2003, 01:04 PM
I've said it before, and I'll say it again.

Make friends with your neighbors. Be active in neighborhood associations, PTA organizations, neighborhood watch, etc... Walk around your neighborhood, and smile and say hello to folks (some of 'em will look at you like you're crazy... but they'll eventually come to accept you) as you pass 'em on the street. Besides, walking is good exercise.

If crap happens, you won't be isolated.

Johnny Guest
March 11, 2003, 01:11 PM
Dateline: Bugscuffle, TX

"This sleepy little Texas town of 4,500 was in the process of cleaning up and mourning their casualties early today after some 10,000 rioters invaded two days ago. Residents suffered a loss of 26 killed and some 100 injured.

"The rioters appear to left some 1.200 dead and eleven injured when routed. The injured and both healthy prisoners have been turned over to the Department of Public Safety.

"The county sheriff and local Health Department are using Department of Transportation back hoes and bull dozers, preparing strip trenches for refuse disposal.

"Back to you, Geraldo."

biere
March 11, 2003, 01:42 PM
I forget who mentioned it, but someone mentioned that a lot of country people probably rely on stores as much as city people. For many this is true and happens to be something I am changing for myself.

I live on several acres, one acre is a stocked and well established pond. I recently installed another large and very deep pond. The one that is already established allows me to eat fish I catch. If I keep the predator populations down the fish breed and grow and really need very little from me in my opinion. So that is one food source. Ponds also have water plants like cat tails, while I don't love a cat tail with my meal it is an edible plant and does well if the stores are empty. And of course I get some water birds now and then, I have frogs and turtles and all sorts of animals that come to drink from the pond or live close to it. Last summer I used fish from my pond at least once a week, this lowers my grocery cost and I am learning to catch and clean and cook fish. This is something that I use now to save money, in shtf it would also be useful.

A well is worth more than a pond in my opinion. It is clean drinking water, cooking water, water for watering the garden, water for watering the livestock, and since it so deep in the ground it is also cold.

I am barely able to get a garden to grow. I am learning and getting better. If you look at a lot of people in the country they have been raising gardens for decades and many of them can their extras so they can use them through the winter. Once again you eliminate the store.

I don't do it yet, but a lot of people raise chickens for eggs and meat, rabbits for meat, goats for milk and meat, cows for milk and meat, and horses for work animals and fun. I expect to be able to barter for either some eggs or milk or meat or a part of a litter that I can raise for meat. Give me enough time and I will be able to have an animal or two myself.

I personally don't think any of the extreme versions of shtf can happen. But I recently lost electricity for 4 days. Many in my area had to go to the high school gyms and stay because they could not heat or feed themselves. I try to make sure I can help myself so that others who still need help can receive it. I am not above asking for help, I just prefer to help myself first.

A tornado, hurricane, fire, being laid off, a major injury or sickness, and all sorts of things cause shtf scenerios for many people.

I feel that by being more self sufficient I can absorb future problems easier. For instance, I heat with propane and it has gone up in price a lot. A wood stove means I have to cut and split wood, but the price is my labor regardless of the cost of a barrel of oil.

In the city and suburbs it is darn hard to be self sufficient in my opinion. Only in the country do you have the space to do it and I am lucky in that my neighbors know how to do things and are willing to teach me.

And as far as the looting or stealing of supplies, I believe in an extreme shtf scenerio that people willing to steal or kill others for what they have are going to learn justice is dispenced using a short rope and a tall tree. We have a lot of trees out here in the country, and I have plenty of rope.

Not being able to go to the store would really be a hardship. But at the same time, at least I know I can provide some meat, some fish, some plants, and water for myself. Soon I will be able to heat with wood only and that will be a major plus, I will also be able to use an old wood cook stove.

labgrade
March 11, 2003, 02:54 PM
No, Topgun, I do not want a "gang" coming at me & mine, or anywhere near me.

May be that "you & yours" are a perfect match, but how would I ever know that beforehand!?

A "gang of THR-members" might be a goodly deal all told, but I'd really like to meet 'em first - some of us are crazy, no? & many don't have any skill-set I'd want in a life or death situation.

A "compliment" may well be a really good thing, but a "gang" has nothing I want living by me. Arguing symantics here maybe.

& no, I'm not "working for nothing" - The Wife is though. Strange times, huh? You have no idea regards my personal economy, BTW.

SoDFW Jason
March 11, 2003, 03:41 PM
For those city dwellers who chose country, I will provide my address for y'all. Just bring some grub and ammo with you(maybe some nudie mags too).:D

riverdog
March 11, 2003, 03:43 PM
Not being able to go to the store would really be a hardship. So buy bulk and keep a rotating inventory. Don't ever get to a point where you have to get to a store for something you could have on hand.

Shalako
March 11, 2003, 07:05 PM
Alot of really good comments so far. I am definately leaning towards a rural community now rather than my two previously planned optioins. They were:

1.) Stay at home here in Sacramento with my organic vegetable garden. Defend property, possessions, and life from civil unrest type looters that begin as close as two structures down the street. All the other neighbors speak Russian only and I don't want to rely on engaging them for a citizens security group at this point.

2.) Head up to my hunting zone up in the El Dorado National Forest with the lil lady, two dogs, and Chevy 4x4 (and lots o guns). I've got camping gear galore, plenty of canned and dried food, water filters, radio, 0 degree bags, etc. It could be very cold or snowed in. I know the area pretty well but am certain the toothless bear hunters from Pollock Pines know the area ten times better. Hmmm.

Option 3.) of going to the foothills to a peaceable rural community is starting to sound soooo much better than 1 or 2.

Thanks!

Chris Rhines
March 11, 2003, 07:44 PM
Either can work, if you prepare well in advance. If you don't prepare well in advance, neither will work.

- Chris

labgrade
March 11, 2003, 08:28 PM
Shalako,

All I can say about bugging out to anything "public" is that you'll only provide stuff for those who are more numerous & ruthless - your food, guns, water, vehicles, children & Wife.

I see not one thing good about going to anything that would congregate "anything public." You have to figure that the barest dregs would go first to these type spots.

& therein lies a crux of our own "escape." We live not 1/4 mile away from a county park. I envision an influx of "weekend warriors" thrawling our (close enough) area if anything bad happens = "escaping to the wild." - my back door.

As is, we could survive quite nicely, but with an influx of another thousand+, we coudn't - besides the attendant bad manners they'd likely bring with them.

I lietrally have no idea.

Best plan is to ditch the road/prevent any access (& accompanied by riflemen to enforce such). We cannot allow anybody else into our area as it cannot support any extras - nor do we care to deal with any ne'er-do-wells who mayhaps "want to play games" - I'd think we'd already have enough on our hands - Sorry.

We do have an environ & would like to maintain it (except for our local bliss-ninnies who'd want to "feed 'n care for" all the "refugees" ....

Bu-bye .....

Pre-positioned, etc.

Driving the 10 miles to the "airport" may be quite the trick - we'll see.

redneck
March 11, 2003, 10:35 PM
Well I used to live out in the middle of nowhere, but the city keeps movin closer. And suddenly it aint so safer here anymore, things gettin stolen, all kinds of stuff.

But I'll stick where I am or go farther out should somethin truly bad happen. At my house, or barn your lookin at coverin at least 150 yards of open ground, to get to me, while I have cover and am watchin for you.
I can step out on either front or back porch and see deer fairly often, so food is pretty good. Not to mention the garden in the summer. Fire place, for heating/cooking. Have a well so I have water.
And should things get so bad that I decide to leave home an go into deep hiding, I've got my choice of ten horses, 2 pickem up trucks, or a tractor to head for the hills with. I can ride a horse and lead a pack horse places you'd never get in a truck, or SUV, or even on an ATV really. And your shore not going to keep up on foot.


I think that a major point here is that you have to be comfortable in your situation, and know what to do wherever you are. If you've live in the city your whole life and don't have any experience bein outdoors, slippin through the woods, or any of that sort of thing, you'd better not come out here. There's some skills that you don't just get from readin about it, like the ability to look out across a 100 acre field or through the woods and notice that something is out of place.

biere
March 11, 2003, 11:59 PM
In an earlier post by me
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Not being able to go to the store would really be a hardship.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
End my quote.

Quote of riverdog's post.
So buy bulk and keep a rotating inventory. Don't ever get to a point where you have to get to a store for something you could have on hand.
End riverdog's quote

You are still relying on someone else to produce goods for you, and you are still relying on some form of delivery.

I do buy in large quantities, I store what I use and rotate the oldest out. This lets me keep a lot on hand and allows me to wait for things to come up on sale.

The point I was trying to make about the country is that it is usually where the item is first produced. From apples to wheat to cows to pigs and all sorts of other stuff, it is raised outside cities and then packaged and shipped into the city.

The bulk pantry game can get you through months or even a year or two for many, all by itself. Add in canning veggies and raising some meat and having some ponds and you might get farther.

For extreme shtf games, bulk only has a set time limit, never a good thing to play a game with.

riverdog
March 12, 2003, 12:47 AM
My point in these SHTF scenario's is that while the stores may run out for a short period, they will either be back or it's a new world and we've got bigger problems than the lack of a few sundries. It's for getting through the barren times that we keep personal stores. Supplementing as you can off the land is huge and may become a way of life if things are really bad. I try to buy things that last and I try to keep them in good shape. It's for things that are best fresh that we need stores.

If you want to drink fresh milk (I don't) you need a cow or a store with access to a dairy. If you want eggs for breakfast or cooking you need chickens or a store with access to a chicken farm. Same with beef, fresh fruit and vegetables. Much of that can be frozen and will last quite a while but for that you need a freezer and "electricity"; but some fresh items don't freeze well and for those you need working farms.

Self sufficiency takes a lot of investment and work, but in a small community that expense and labor can be shared, as can the protection of that investment. (The movie "The Postman" portrayed this very well. Small communities coming back and Army's of thugs trying to dictate.)

Interesting scenario.

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