Tyler, TX shooting spree wacko fired on by CCW citizen.


February 24, 2005, 06:54 PM
Well, I looked around, and can't believe there's not a thread on here yet.

Here is the story as available on the 'net:

Tyler Shooting (http://www.nbc5i.com/news/4229629/detail.html)

Channel WFAA TV here in Dallas just aired a press conference where the local PD gave a statement that the perp was shot at by a private citizen who happened to be CCW near the Courthouse at the time, there still isn't a clear story on whether the CCW hit the guy or not or whether that citizen is among the dead or wounded.

We'll see how much of that gets to the mainstream media, but the officials in Tyler made certain to point out that he was licensed to carry, and trained.

Good job, whoever you are! Thanks for at least trying to help.

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February 24, 2005, 06:55 PM
IN DOWNTOWN TYLER (http://www.tylerpaper.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=14028947&BRD=1994&PAG=461&dept_id=226369&rfi=6)

Two killed, three wounded in Texas shooting (http://msnbc.msn.com/id/7026524/)

A concealed-carry licensee, Mark Allen Wilson (sp?) opened fire at the AK-47-variant-wielding, bulletproof vest-and flak-jacket wearing shooter. He hit him several times, probably saving at least one life - that of the shooter's ex-wife's son. Unfortunately, the hero was then shot and killed by the assailant.

The suspect was killed by police after a chase.

February 24, 2005, 07:04 PM
WFAA TV is reporting the CCW holder exchanged gunfire with the <idiot>, and was killed in the process. Local officials are crediting him with saving lives, although he gave his own.

February 24, 2005, 07:04 PM
Funny, MSNBC doesn't mention that part about the legal CCW playing a part in stopping this guy.

February 24, 2005, 07:07 PM
No surprise I guess. I updated the link above to a local media outlet.
Hopefully get more accurate coverage there. They just replayed the interview with the police official, and mentioned the CCW again.

There will no doubt be a fund for the LEOs injured in the mess, maybe someone will start one for this poor guy, just trying to help.

February 24, 2005, 07:12 PM
The local Tyler station http://www.kltv.com/ has several video reports, including a witness who says that the CHL holder fired three shots and "... hit him, hit him Bad." but that the BG was probably wearing a vest and was unfazed. Another report eslewhere by a friend of the CHL holder also said that he hit the bad guy twice COM, but that the BG was unfazed and then shot the CHL holder twice COM, once to the head.

Practice those failure drills....

February 24, 2005, 07:12 PM
Let me know if they start a fund for his family.
I'll contribute.


February 24, 2005, 07:13 PM
Roberts said the gunman sprayed the courthouse with bullets and was then shot at by another man who did not appear to be a police officer, and was soon killed.

"The man armed with the AK-47 then walked up to that man and shot him point-blank … killed him," Roberts said.

That "other man who did not appear to be a police officer" did something braver and more noble than 99.9999% of the population. I hope the full story of how he intervened comes out, and isn't suppressed by the media.

George S.
February 24, 2005, 07:14 PM
Wonder if the anti's will come out with some sob story about what can happen to you if you carry a gun. And you can bet that the use of an AK-47 in a shooting rampage is going to stir the anti's up.

It's sad to hear that a citizen trying to protect others and possibly himself had to be the target of this idiot and lost his life in the process. He did a good thing that a lot of other people would not even think of doing.

February 24, 2005, 07:18 PM
KSLA in Shreveport reported that the bad guy was definitely wearing a vest. The intended targets were apparently the bad guy's (former?) wife and child. The wife was killed; the newsguy opined that the CHL holder saved the kid. The bad guy died at the hospital. I'm sure that we'll know more tomorrow.

February 24, 2005, 07:20 PM

CCW's name appeared to be Mark Wilson.

Ironic that a Five-seveN "evil armor-piercing pistol" would have actually helped in this situation.

dance varmint
February 24, 2005, 07:20 PM
That is the man of the year.

Take home lesson to the rest of us: keep rifle in car.

February 24, 2005, 07:33 PM

Not trying to change the subject of the thread, but the anti's obvious counter to that is to ban vests for civilians as well as guns.

I wasn't sure, but aren't they banned in CA, probably as a result of that "Heat" style bank robbery? I remember the WTO riots inspired CA to start talk of banning gas masks for civilians but don't know if that ever went through.

February 24, 2005, 07:43 PM
Hats off to the armed citizen whoever and wherever you are!!!

Damn those who would disarm us!


February 24, 2005, 07:54 PM
Would the first person who finds the article mentioning in print the CCW holder please post it here? I'm not doubting it happened, but so far none of the articles that I looked at here mentioned it.

February 24, 2005, 07:56 PM

Mark Wilson, age 52, one witness claimed he was shooting a .45, although I don't know how he knew. LE credits Mr. Wilson with saving the life of the shooter's son, who was wounded. Apparently, the 4-6 cops and deputies who were shooting at the shooter did not hit him. They may have been further away, I don't know.

Very comforting to hear the Sheriff say, at least twice during the press conference, "It's a free country. If somebody wants to do something like this, (the shooting), they can do it."

Yes, a fund would be nice. Also comforting was the language used by the Sheriff to describe Wilson: "a citizen who was aiding law enforcement." No "civilian", no "vigilante"--just respect.

February 24, 2005, 08:06 PM
This would never have happened if the Assault Weapons Ban was renewed.


February 24, 2005, 08:15 PM
Ironic that a Five-seveN "evil armor-piercing pistol" would have actually helped in this situation.

I hate to say it but probably not.

What would have stopped it all is a head shot.

Standing Wolf
February 24, 2005, 08:22 PM
Damn those who would disarm us!

I'll second that.

February 24, 2005, 08:25 PM
No Mozambique drill? :confused:

February 24, 2005, 08:29 PM
As previously mentioned, the reports we're getting in the metroplex on AM radio is that Mr. Wilson is being credited with saving the sons life by intervening.

WBAP-820 indicated he owned a gun range and well known in Tyler. Very sad.
At least it looks like he was of help and cudos for stepping in harms way to help.

February 24, 2005, 08:33 PM
A Tyler man embroiled in a bitter child support dispute opened fire on his ex-wife and son with a high-powered rifle, killing the woman and a bystander who attempted to intervene.

Several people, including three lawmen, were wounded in the exchange.

Police ultimately shot and killed David Hernandez Arroyo Sr. after he fired repeatedly at officers during a two-mile chase that ended off U.S. Highway 271.

The 43-year-old suspect, who was wearing multiple layers of body armor, died in a hail of police gunfire after authorities rammed his pickup and he emerged, gun raised and firing.

The scene around the normally quiet Smith County Courthouse turned into chaos as people dove for cover to escape the gunman. Office workers scrambled to lock doors and crawl to safety.

Authorities said it was the bloodiest day in recent memory.

The dead, both of Tyler, have been identified as Maribel Estrada, 41, and Mark Allen Wilson, 52, a personal trainer and gun enthusiast. The wounded include David Arroyo Jr., 23, the suspect's son, five law enforcement officers and two bystanders.

Authorities surmised afterward the deceased never had a chance.

Details continue to emerge, but preliminary evidence suggests Arroyo planned the ambush to the minutest de-tail.

He was armed with an AK-47, two types of body armor and hundreds of rounds of ammunition, said Tyler Police Chief Gary Swindle.

Within a span of about two minutes, the downtown square in Tyler was transformed to a landscape of shell casings, broken glass and stunned witnesses.

"I saw people lying everywhere that had been shot," said a dazed Nathan Hoffman, an attorney working di-rectly across the street from the courthouse when shots rang out.

"I saw a guy walking down the street with a high-powered rifle shooting at the courthouse," Hoffman said. "I said, 'Everyone move to the back of the office!'" By then, the scene erupted in chaos.

The gunman, Hoffman said, was "just running down the street shooting."

Witnesses said Arroyo ambushed his ex-wife and son outside the courthouse and started firing.

Ms. Estrada was struck multiple times and died on the lower steps on the east side of the courthouse, officials said.

Arroyo continued firing, aiming next at his son.

"He was either wounded or dead, but the guy (Arroyo) shot him again to make sure he wouldn't get up," said witness Brandon Malone, a Tyler builder who was lunching inside Don Juan's.

Smith County Sheriff's Deputy Sherman Dollison, 28, who was serving as a substitute bailiff for the day, was shot multiple times while standing on the landing of the courthouse steps.

He is listed in critical condition at East Texas Medical Center with injuries to the lungs and liver.

SCSO Lt. Marlin Suell, 38, and Tyler Police Det. Clay Perrett, 54, were injured by stray gunfire - Suell in the back of the neck and Perrett to the side of the face.

Repeated shots fired by the suspect shattered glass and sent bystanders scurrying for cover, behind benches, bushes and vehicles.

Several people were wounded by flying glass and one man fell unconscious after suffering a seizure, a hospital spokeswoman said.

The noise prompted Mark Wilson, a gun enthusiast, to intervene as Arroyo continued to fire on his wounded son.

"They traded shots, missing each other, and then the gunman hit Wilson and Wilson went down," said Nelson Clyde III, publisher of the Tyler Morning Telegraph, recalling the shooting as he watched from Don Juan's.

"The gunman walked up to Wilson and shot him while he was on the ground," Clyde said. "I couldn't believe what I was seeing ... it was sickening."

Witnesses said Arroyo calmly walked to his truck, still trading shots with an unidentified man lying beside a Chevrolet, and climbed inside.

"He slowly backed up a bit, and drove away at normal speed, right past a patrol car," Clyde said.

Wilson approached the suspect and fired several times, but the shots appeared useless due to the multiple lay-ers of body armor, witnesses said.

He was wearing both a bulletproof vest and a military flak jacket.

Arroyo turned and fired on Wilson, killing him just a few feet outside the front door of Levine's clothing store. The suspect climbed into his maroon Chevrolet stepside pickup and sped away.

Witness Ron Martell, a military veteran who watched the killing spree, trailed the fleeing suspect and pointed him out to police.

"At first, I couldn't believe it," he said. "I watched the suspect shoot that guy at least seven times. Then he got into his truck and casually drove away. I followed him."

City, county, state and federal law enforcement officers rushed to chase down the suspect and tend to the wounded.

Sirens wailing, authorities began chasing Arroyo, who fired at officers and the courthouse as he sped away from the killing scene.

The caravan of officers pursued the suspect to North Spring Avenue and onto East Gentry Parkway, trailing him to the area of U.S. 271 and Duncan Street.

Witnesses up and down the corridor rushed for cover from stray gunfire as Arroyo continued firing at officers. "When they came through, there were a lot of shots flying around," said Henry Lee, manager of Rayson Automotive, 2021 E. Gentry Parkway. "I ducked."

A deputy rammed the man's vehicle, prompting him to emerge firing.

Officers returned fire, striking the man several times, at least once in the head.

Sobbing relatives rushed to the location, but were held at bay by authorities.

Authorities spent hours searching the highway for spent casings. Dozens of tiny markers documented the number of shots fired.

"Obviously he came prepared because he came with a bulletproof flak jacket," said Chief Swindle. "Witnesses reported seeing him reload."

Swindle said of the law officers on the scene, "They were simply outgunned. They were armed with handguns and he (Arroyo) was armed with an AK47."

Arroyo had previously told his wife he would kill her if she pressed the issue of child support, authorities said. "He came here with one thing in mind," Swindle said. "He had the act set in his mind to murder his ex-wife. He has a history of assaulting his ex-wife and several weapons offenses."

Authorities credited Wilson with possibly saving the life of Arroyo's son, who was reported to be in fair con-dition.

Swindle said the armor worn by Arroyo was designed to withstand not just bullets, but also landmine explo-sions.

Staff writers Patrick Butler and Roy Maynard contributed to this report.

It's still a mess, but there may have been two CHL carriers involved: Wilson and an unidentified man who took cover under a Chevy.

More news as it comes. Local news station here:http://www.kltv.com/Global/story.asp?S=2994393


February 24, 2005, 08:35 PM
I hate to say it but probably not.
What would have stopped it all is a head shot.No Mozambique drill? :confused:

No offense, but I suspect you've never been in a real life, civilian SD situation.

You're assuming safety drill was an option, right?
Maybe the distance, cover, or target movement ruled it out...
(It's a lot different when the target is shooting back, hein?))
Even if a safety drill had been attempted, but missed the headshot,
there's almost no way we'll ever know now, despite ANY hypothetical
video record or knowledgeable witnesses.


February 24, 2005, 08:38 PM
God Bless Mr. Wilson. Apparently he's the only one who hit the BG at the courthouse. The police finally took him down at another location.

February 24, 2005, 08:54 PM
Duplicate threads merged.


February 24, 2005, 09:15 PM
Thanks Tam and Lawdog. Mark Wilson sounds like a good guy.

I hope someone will put up a sticky regarding any trust fund set up for his family.

February 24, 2005, 10:55 PM
I hope someone with access to Lexus-Nexus tracks this story. I would love to see how the story is reported and then morphs over time. Most important is what happens to the factoid of a CCH involvement over time. In the past important little details tend to fall into the memory hole.

Charles Cotton
February 24, 2005, 11:47 PM
I am furious! I just saw the 10:00 pm KHOU Ch. 11 and KPRC Ch. 2 news spots on the Tyler Courthouse shooting. Both spots were quick to refer to an "assault weapon" and Ch. 2 said the murderer fired 50 rounds.

What really has me steaming is the way they reported on Mark Wilson's death. They didn't give his name and merely mentioned him in passing, referring to him as a bystander also killed.

I called Ch. 11 newsroom and asked why they didn't report his involvement accurately; i.e. a CHL who died trying to save lives. An arrogant woman simply said, "well, obviously we didn't know it or we would have." What a load of crap! The media has had this information since late this afternoon, or early evening. I switched over to Ch. 2 and they had the same report.

What an insult to a brave man; pitching the assault weapon slant, while ignoring his sacrifice. I hope the local stations hear from some folks.


February 24, 2005, 11:55 PM
Let me know if they start a fund for his family.


February 25, 2005, 12:51 AM
Mark Allen Wilson, 52

No one who knew Mark Allen Wilson is surprised by his sacrifice.

John O'Sullivan, who owned the downtown building where Mark Wilson lived, said Wilson was a good friend.

"He didn't shy away from danger," O'Sullivan said. "He always jumped into things."

He said Wilson's response to the rampage was "typical Mark Wilson."

Wilson opened an indoor gun range in Tyler, On-Target, in 1997. It was a facility focused on self-defense, say people who knew him.

Tyler cardiologist Dr. Scott Lieberman, Wilson's friend and former business associate, said Wilson was a "fundamental believer in self-defense and protection."

"He was demonstrating that today," Lieberman said. "He had a strong sense of honor and protection."

That sense of protection extended to the entire downtown area, Wilson's friends say.

"He was a downtown fixture, having been there for so long," said one neighbor, Billy Boone. "He looked out for everyone else's place. If something looked wrong or out of place, he'd check on it."

Wilson's apartment looked directly onto the courthouse, Boone added.

"He had a bird's-eye view of what was happening," Boone said. "I imagine he saw it and immediately reacted. That's the kind of guy he was."

Mark Anderson, a friend, agreed. "It was a very heroic thing for him to do. But he lost his life in the process."


The above and related stories at http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?brd=1994&pag=460&dept_ID=226369

Note body in photo near fire hydrant ... attempted to use for cover?

RIP, Mr. Wilson. Prayers for friends and family.

February 25, 2005, 12:59 AM
"He has a history of assaulting his ex-wife and several weapons offenses"

Why the hell was this guy out in public? It is a federal offense for someone convicted of domestic violence to be in possession of firearms. His 'weapons offenses SHOULD have sent him to a federal prison. Looks like the feds failed the community and now some good people have died.

February 25, 2005, 02:12 AM
Those of you in the area please keep us informed.


Cool Hand Luke 22:36
February 25, 2005, 06:35 AM
What would have stopped it all is a head shot.

Maybe a shot to the groin, thigh, knee also. Areas not typically shielded by protective armor.

Anybody in the area know Wilson and wish to get a fund going? Count me in.

February 25, 2005, 07:44 AM
I just watched the AM coverage on CBS and it was suprisingly well balanced. They mentioned Mark Wilson by name, and specifically mentioned that he had a concealed weapons permit and fired on the shooter prior to being killed himself.

They also included some video footage from inside a courtroom during the shooting and from the audio it was clear that the rifle was in fact fully automatic and it sounded like an AK to me. From the short clip I heard what sounded to me like a longish burst of 5-8 rounds followed closely by a shorter burst of maybe 3-4 rounds (thats a guess though). But, it was definatly a machinegun and so the media calling it an "Assault Weapon/Rifle" is actually technically correct (unfortunatly).

I am very interested to see how he obtained the rifle and wether or not it was converted post-sale or if he accquired it that way.

Politically I think that this works out OK for us. On one hand our shooter proved that no amount of law is going to keep weapons away from the bad guys and on the other an armed law-abiding citizen saved a child's life from a psycho. Shame it worked out the way it did though, I would much rather the good Mr. Wilson walked away from it to recieve his due credit in person rather than posthumously (sp?).

February 25, 2005, 07:47 AM
My dad is a Smith County fire marshal who responded to the melee, but he arrived just as the guy was driving away. I will try to give out more details as I learn them from him.

Charles Cotton, it is very likely he fired that many rounds. My dad was in his office and he and the other fire marshal heard the gunfire and began to run for the sound of it, down 4 floors and up the street two blocks...the guy was firing the whole time. The CHL holder did hit the shooter a few times, but as noted he was wearing body armor so it only spun him around, and he then shot Wilson, and walked up to him and shot him in the head at point blank range a few times.

For those of you who are saying they should have shot the guy in the head, the courthouse is an old style in the middle of a town square, with a wide street going all around it. There was no cover, except cars parked across the street.

I hope the deputies let the guy slowly bleed out.

February 25, 2005, 08:17 AM

Gunman kills ex-wife, bystander in Texas


Associated Press

TYLER, Texas - A man angry about being sued for unpaid child support opened fire with an AK-47 assault rifle outside a courthouse, killing his ex-wife and a man trying to help the couple's adult son.

The gunman, 43-year-old David Hernandez Arroyo Sr., was killed Thursday afternoon in a gun battle with officers a few miles away after wounding his son and three law enforcement officers, one critically.

The son had been acting as a mediator between his parents, police said.

Police estimated that Arroyo, who had a history of spousal abuse and weapons violations, shot 50 rounds in the historic town square. He was wearing a military flak jacket and a bulletproof vest.

"He definitely came well-armed and prepared," police Chief Gary Swindle said. "We do understand there had been some threats made by him the previous week."

But the attorney representing Maribel Estrada, 41, said he doesn't believe she thought her ex-husband was dangerous. Estrada worked at a meat packing plant in Tyler and raised a 17-year-old and a 6-year-old with the help of her eldest son, Joshua Wintters said.

The other victim, Mark Alan Wilson, 52, was credited by authorities with saving the life of David Hernandez Arroyo Jr., who was listed in fair condition at a hospital with leg wounds. A sheriff's deputy, Sherman Dollison, 28, was in critical condition after being shot in the liver, lungs and legs; a sheriff's lieutenant and a Tyler police detective were treated and released.

"One of the deputies at the scene said if it hadn't been for Mr. Wilson," said Sheriff J.B. Smith, "the son would be dead."

Friends who visited the son in the hospital Thursday night said he told them that his father was always open about having a collection of weapons.

Aurea Seanez said the son told them, "And look now, he used them on us."

Wilson, a gun enthusiast who once owned a shooting range, intervened after Arroyo killed his ex-wife, witnesses said. Swindle, the police chief, said Wilson shot at Arroyo several times but his rounds weren't penetrating the armor.

"They traded shots, missing each other, and then the gunman hit Wilson and Wilson went down," Tyler Morning Telegraph publisher Nelson Clyde III said in Friday's editions of the newspaper. Clyde watched the shooting from a nearby restaurant.

"The gunman walked up to Wilson and shot him while he was on the ground," Clyde said. "I couldn't believe what I was seeing. It was sickening."

Estrada and Arroyo divorced in January 2004 after 22 years of marriage. Wintters wouldn't say why the two divorced.

Tyler, the seat of Smith County, is a city of about 86,000 located about 95 miles east of Dallas. Tyler calls itself the "Rose Capital of the Nation" and attracts about 100,000 visitors each October to the Texas Rose Festival.

Associated Press writers Bobby Ross Jr. in Tyler and Liz Austin, Matt Curry and Lisa Falkenberg in Dallas contributed to this report.

Sam Adams
February 25, 2005, 12:33 PM
Mark Allen Wilson is a hero. Tragically, he paid for his heroism with his life, but he showed great courage and honor in trying to save others (and apparently succeeding). May he rest in peace, and may his family be comforted by their memories of him and their knowledge of what kind of person he was.

I have thankfully never been involved in any kind of hostile action involving lethal weapons, and I hope that this continues. However, I also hope that IF I am involved, I will have the presence of mind and the courage that Wilson had.

Also, I couldn't help noticing this [and NO disrespect to Wilson or any other victims is intended]:

Authorities spent hours searching the highway for spent casings.


February 25, 2005, 12:51 PM
CNN just did a live spot from Tyler and the woman mentioned Wilson, how he shot the perp several times etc!

February 25, 2005, 01:01 PM
CNN mentions that Wilson was a hero and saved the life of the shooter's son. I want to see what the major news shows do with it.

Lott has pointed out that in school shootings, the major media has NOT mentioned the involvement of armed citizens. Let's see about this.

I'd bet that they will portray Wilson as an example that we are helpless and all guns should be banned.

I also want to read the professional level reconstructions of the action. What happened after Wilson was shot, etc.?

God Bless this Man - you have to wonder what you would do despite all you say you would do on the Internet.

The Rabbi
February 25, 2005, 01:22 PM
He should have kept to himself. He didnt know the other people most likely. He didnt owe them anything. A CCW is meant to protect "you and yours." He personally wasnt under any threat and could probably have escaped unharmed. Even if he had survived, he probably would have had to deal with a hostile DA and a grand jury investigation. And if he got through that then he would have been sued by the by standers and maybe even the shooter's ex-wife. As it is he paid for it with his life.

Oh. yeah. I dont believe any of that. But based on some comments on other threads, like the one on standing in line, plenty of other people here do.

February 25, 2005, 02:17 PM
based on some comments on other threads, like the one on standing in line,
Link, please. :confused:

February 25, 2005, 02:31 PM
This morning the TV news (ABC, I think) had video from inside the court house. It appears to me that one deputy had stainless steel or nickel revolver. Had a close-up of the revolver. Looked like a 38/.357 caliber.

The Rabbi
February 25, 2005, 02:32 PM
Link, please


Check the last two posts in particular. :cuss:

February 25, 2005, 04:45 PM
Thanks, Rabbi. Personally, I don't think that there can be even a rule of thumb for third-party interventions. Each case is unique.

I think about it all the time but sincerely couldn't say what I would do in this or that circumstance. I don't think I have any obligation to do anything but I might act...given favorable odds of being both successful...and in the right.

The Rabbi
February 25, 2005, 05:29 PM
Personally, I don't think that there can be even a rule of thumb for third-party interventions. Each case is unique.

I agree with you 100%. But in the pizza store case the guy was right there in front of them. If he were around the corner, or down the block or something then I could see just getting the heck out of there. A CCW is not a license to impose law and order.
As the Bible says, "do not stand idly by your brother's blood."

February 25, 2005, 10:37 PM
Hero, pure and simple. No better way to go out in my eyes, than to sacrifice your life in order to save another's. In his case, probably several lives.

I've always made the point to people that ask me why I carry, and I can't exactly always give them a 100% clear answer.

I don't WANT to be a vigilante/hero/etc. I have no want to ever use my gun. I've always felt that I have a right to protect myself and my family if the situation arises.

But who knows how someone would react put into the same position as Mr. Wilson.

I'd like to think that I'd do the same thing without hesitation, but who really knows until they are put into that situation?

It does make you rethink keeping a rifle in the trunk though... Maybe when the new-ness wears off of my Kel Tec SU16, I'll look into throwing it and a few 30 round mags into a bag into the trunk of the daily driver.

February 25, 2005, 10:45 PM
If the CCW fired from cover or just fired from where he was standing ? Not trying to judge just asking a ? You would have to be in his shoes to say he did or did not do the right thing.

February 25, 2005, 10:57 PM
Hats off to Mr. Wilson. He saved at least one life, probably more. Even if he didn't get penetration, those thwaps got the criminal's attention and appear to have hurt him enough to prompt him to drive off.

Moral: Have a rifle in your vehicle or close at hand and make getting it into play a priority. One shot from a hunting rifle or even an old C&R would have put this guy down hard, and at a much safer distance than a concealed piece can provide.

Sylvilagus Aquaticus
February 26, 2005, 12:22 AM
From information I have from reliable sources the exchange took place across the bed of a half-ton pickup. We are lessened by the loss of David Wilson.


rock jock
February 26, 2005, 12:33 AM

Unfortunately, you are 100% correct.

Mr. Wilson could have been any one of us (save for the group who Rabbi refers to). I know a dozen different guys from my IDPA club who would not hesitate to jump into this situation if the circumstances demanded it. This is just not a sceanrio that we usually practice for.

February 26, 2005, 03:01 AM
Swindle said of the law officers on the scene, "They were simply outgunned. They were armed with handguns and he (Arroyo) was armed with an AK47."

Arroyo had previously told his wife he would kill her if she pressed the issue of child support, authorities said. "He came here with one thing in mind," Swindle said. "He had the act set in his mind to murder his ex-wife. He has a history of assaulting his ex-wife and several weapons offenses."

from vpc

VPC NEWS FOR: Saturday, February 26, 2005

AK-47s Used in Two Multiple Shootings

A shooter armed with an AK-47 assault rifle killed three and wounded four, including three law enforcement officers, in Tyler, Texas on Thursday, February 24, 2005. On the same day, a Los Angeles city worker allegedly shot two co-workers, also with an AK-47. Both incidents starkly demonstrate the urgent need for a comprehensive nationwide ban on assault weapons such as the AK-47 assault rifles the shooters wielded. Both shootings came quickly on the heels of an incident in Ulster County, New York where a gunman—also wielding an AK-47 assault rifle—wounded two in a crowded shopping mall.

no mention of it being full auto but did call it a assault rifle
then refered to assault weapons....the ol bait and switch

no mention of Wilson

no mention that the perp was from what I infer , a criminal and wife beater, with probaly an illegal gun

reference to another AK shooting the same day
from this we can infer that there is 730 multiple homicides with AK 's ....



and <whisper> we wont even mention wilson until we figger out how to spin that to make CCW look bad

<sarcasm off>

notice they reporting that 3 killed.... from what I read here so far only 2 dead

also 1 of the other shootings was in PRK where they have an assault ban, an If im not mistaking , a full auto ban,.....
other was in New York......anyone know if they have AWB?????


February 26, 2005, 03:19 AM
But in the pizza store case the guy was right there in front of them. If he were around the corner, or down the block or something then I could see just getting the heck out of there. A CCW is not a license to impose law and order.

There is a pretty significant difference between a guy who is getting beaten up and a woman and child who are being turned into riddled corpses by a deranged man with a .30cal rifle. I happen to agree with you on both counts (as I posted in one of the other threads concerning the "pizza incident") but, it is important not to draw too many parrallells between two very different circumstances.

This was a clear matter of life or death for two obviously innocent persons. The pizza incident wasnt quite so obvious. The victim in that case was badly beaten but he did survive. Thats an important distinction. Personally I would have kicked the assailant in the head myself but, I'm not going to be over critical of someone who didnt.

February 26, 2005, 10:33 AM
They are now calling the rifle a "Mak 90". It appeared to have a conventional cheap-looking wooden stock with a thumbhhole. It would not have been banned by the fed ban.

The Tyler ABC affiliate ran sickening and self-contradictory pieces about police being "outgunned", etc., with citizens commenting about what kind of guns we "need". IMO, someone "got to them". :banghead:

I'm on dialup so I can't preview these videos, but I did see the stories on broadcast TV last night.

Click on the link and then check which videos you want to see.

Featured Video (http://www.kltv.com/Global/story.asp?S=2994393&nav=1TjBWmXB)

February 26, 2005, 11:09 AM
What the anti-gunners fail to realize is that Arroyo was already in violation of the law for possessing these weapons (IIRC) because he had a history of criminal violence.

February 26, 2005, 02:20 PM
On the radio here this morning they're saying it was a cheaply made chinese sks with a sporter stock on it.

February 26, 2005, 03:38 PM
All honor to Mr. Wilson for what he did ("Greater love than this hath no man, than he lay down his life for another."), but that is not to say that we can prescribe that anyone was morally obliged to intervene as he did. As one contributor to this thread pointed out, it's one thing to discuss situations, either real or hypothetical, and to speculate on what we might do, but that's as far as it goes. It's only "may" and "might" until the day of reckoning comes.
Mr. Wilson encountered a situation that immediately threatened the community, and in the most immediate and urgent sense imaginable. Both as an individual and a member of the community he acted -but without any external obligation- to terminate that threat. That he was unsuccessful in no way diminishes the quality and heroism of his actions. I trust that his community will remember him that way; I know I will.

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