[Northwest Cajun]

Hi Guys,
I'm looking for a short action that can be rebarreled to 350 Rem Mag. Is there a military action out there that can handle the pressure?
Thinking of a new project, any ideas???

Cajun

[critter]

I don't know the answer to your question, but here is what I did. I took a VZ-24 (full length military-Czhec-action-M98) and rebarreled it to .35 Whelen (ballistic equivalent of the .350 Rem Mag) and am very happy with it indeed. No changes had to be made to extractor or rails and it feeds, fires, extracts and ejects perfectly. Only thing is that it isn't quite as short in the action and not quite as light as a short action .350 RM would be. Good luck with your project.

[Andrew Wyatt]

no military bolt guns to my knowledge fit into the short action category.


there are a number of semi-autos that do, though.

Mc Cann industries is working on a 300 WSM m-1A. they might be able to make one in .350 Rem. Mag.

[cratz2]

As both the other posters mentioned, nearly all older military actions are long actions and the 350 is intended for short actions. You could rebarrel many different military rifles/actions into a 35 Whelen with very little trouble.

[Badger Arms]

I'll vote for the 35 Whelen too. If you are starting with a Military Action, I'd suggest a Turkish Mauser or CZ 24, whichever you can get cheaper. Both of these are 35 Whelen compatible. I have a 350 myself but that's a Remington 600 which was built to be a short aciton. Good luck.

[Mike Irwin]

The only problem with the .350 Remington being stuffed into a short action is that it's really a misfit, especially with heavier bullets. You have to seat the bullets back, which intrudes on powder space, which hurts performance, in order to get them through the magazines of most short action rifles.

I believe that Remington 700 short action has a longer magazine, which allows seating the bullet out a bit farther, but it's still not a great match.

If you go to the long action, you might as well then just go with the .35 Whelen.

[Badger Arms]

Yes, the Remington 700 short action is long enough for the 7x57, 244, and a few other 'longer' short cartridges. I believe the Savage short action is a 'true' short action that doesn't have the extra length of the Remington.

[BigG]

Mike told the story. To get to the real hammer blow that the 350 RM is capable of you need to go to 250 gr bullets. The factory 150 and 200 grain are ok but even the 200 gr takes up powder space due to the short magazine length of a short action. Jeff Cooper's is built on a longer action, IIRC, because his handloader loads the bullets outside the length of a shorty action. Just my two sense.

[Northwest Cajun]

Thanks guys for thr replys,
Looks like a P14 action in 35 whelen is more within my reach.

BTW McCann is just down the street, he is a bit pricey and I not very helpful when answering questions. Kinda rude infact.

Cajun

[seeker_two]

.35 Whelen or one of the 9mm's based on the 7.62x54R (if using an M-N action).

.350 Magnum needs a special short action....

[Mike Irwin]

Cajun,

Why go with a P14 rifle for this project?

Probably be cheaper to go either with a dedicated .35 Whelen (Remington, Ruger, and possibly Winchester have made them over the past few years).

The P14 doesn't qualify as a short action, either. The P14/M 1917 action will handle rounds as big as the .264 Win. Mag. or .338 Win. Mag., possibly even longer rounds.

You could snag an action, rebarrel it, put a nice stock on it, and put some really good glass on it probably for the same price as you'd have to give for just the metal work on the P14 action.

Of course, if you wanted to get really esoteric, how about a .350/.338 -- a .338 case expanded to .35 caliber...

[BigG]

Mike, the M1917 was the one that they converted to 300 H&H and 375 H&H, a super long length action in other words. 350/338? Why not go to a 358 Norma Magnum? :evil: Full 300 H&H length with a 35 caliber wallop!

[Northwest Cajun]

Mike,
I'm trying to get a collection of all US military rifles or actions, with only the P14 and 30-40 krag left to get. I was going to try something different and the 338-350 definatly sounds different:evil:
I'm active duty military that is currently deployed for an unknown ammount of time:eek: so I have a little time to dream on how to spend my tax free and hostile fire pay. ;)

Cajun

[Badger Arms]

I'm trying to get a collection of all US military rifles or actions, with only the P14 and 30-40 krag left to get.Well, then don't get the P-14. The P-14 was not a US rifle. The P-17 was, but the only major difference besides nomenclature was the bolt face. The bolt face on the P-14 is indeed appropriate for a belted magnum, but the P-14 is very long... long enough that you'd need a spacer block in the magazine to get the thing to function correctly. You could load 375 H&H rounds in that puppy, why limit yourself to the short cartridge? You lose every advantage of a short cartridge in such a situation.

[Mike Irwin]

I think we're already past the .350 in the P-14 action, Badger.

I've got him thinking about the .350/.338 now, I think.

[Badger Arms]

I was confused... and still am. What is the advantage of the 338/350 or 350/338 over a 358 Norma Magnum? What I was confused about, though, was why you'd want to put a short action cartridge into a long action???

All things being equal, I think standard calibers are the best way to go. This means that if he wants to use a P14 action, he needs a standard belted magnum such as the .375 H&H or, if he prefers .358, the 35 Whelen. The Whelen will do anything you'd want it to do in North America.

[Mike Irwin]

What's the problem with the .358 Norma Mag.?

Well...

Cost of the brass.

Availability of the brass.

Those three things spring immediately to mind.

As far as I can tell, Norma, the only manufacturer for the brass, cranks out at about $1 to $1.50 a case, depending on where you buy it.

.338 Winchester brass, on the other hand, is closer to 1/3rd that cost.

There's also the fact that the .358 Norma is a slowly dying cartridge, the .338 isn't.

Loaded ammo is available for the .358 Norma, but it's expensive, and hard to come by. It's really a handloading proposition.

The .350-.338 is strictly a handloading proposition, so other than the cases, that's really a wash on that.

The .358 Norma is a very potent cartridge, though. It's really on par with the .375, and there's nothing in the .35 cal. class until you get to the .35 Whelen.

The .350-.338 on the other hand nicely fills that niche, and uses the short magnum cases for which there are so many fine actions.

There was a move afoot a number of years ago to get Winchester to introduce the .350-.338 as a standard cartridge in the line, but apparently the company was scared off by the fact that the .358 Winchester was never much of a seller.

A 270-gr. bullet moving around 2,600 fps, or a 300-gr. bullet at 2,400 to 2,500, wouldn't be out of question with such a round, which would make it excellent cartridge for just about any North American game.

[Badger Arms]

Okay, I'm sold. I've got a 35 Remington, a gaggle of .358's and a 350 RM. I don't really nead another 35. The 358 Winchester is probably one of the most undermarketed cartridges out there. It performs wonderfully for its size.

When I evaluated my need for another cartridge, I found that I didn't really nead anything BUT the .358 Winchester. Mild recoil, moderate velocity, outstanding terminal performance, minimum tissue damage. Will take anything from whitetail to Moose. A more powerful round would give me nothing but more recoil and more range than I can ever imagine using. If you're going to use a long cartridge, stick with the 35 Whelen and enjoy.

[Northwest Cajun]

Badger , I was confused also, I would use the P17 Enfield.
For my deployment I packed the "book of cartridge conversions". It has been an insperation. There lots of posibilities out there.
Thanks guys for all of your advice.

Mike, which would hit harder, 225-250 gr 338 cal bullets or the same weight bullets in 358? With the speeds of about 2400-2600 fps
Range would be 250 yds or less

Cajun

[Badger Arms]

The obvious answer would be that the 358 bullet would hit harder, however I think they are about the same in terms of energy and terminal performance. The advantage in penetration would have to go to the .338 as it is designed to expand at magnum velocities. The 35 caliber bullets are generally designed to expand at slower velocities like you'd expect from the 358 and 35 Whelen. I'd go with a lighter bullet when possible for North American game. Not a big user of the .338 but the 200gr 358 will do just fine for anything South of the Canadian border.

I'll put in another plug here for sticking with a Factory caliber or at least a common wildcat. You do much better in terms of load selection, resale value, die and component costs, and store availability if you need it. My suggestions would be the 338/06, 35 Whelen, and perhaps 338 Magnum downloaded Always better to have lower pressure and expandability if you ever decide to go to Canada, Alaska, or Africa.

[Mike Irwin]

"Mike, which would hit harder, 225-250 gr 338 cal bullets or the same weight bullets in 358? With the speeds of about 2400-2600 fps Range would be 250 yds or less"

Well, given the same bullet weight and the same velocity, you've got a couple of things going on...

First, any difference in performance on game would largely be theoretical. The animal probably isn't going to notice such a small difference in bullet diameter, especially if the bullets are the same weight and going the same velocity.

However, given the difference in diameter, the .338 bullets are going to have a better sectional density, so will probably penetrate better.

Finally, the .338 bullet will probably have a slightly better ballistic coefficient, meaning that at longer ranges it will have a slightly better trajectory.

Badger does introduce another excellent possibility for a cartridge -- the .338/06. Not quite as powerful as the .35 Whelen when the heavier bullets are used, but better long-range trajectory, and ballistics that are close enough to the .35 Whelen that it's a wash.

Finally, there's one cartridge that slipped my mind. It's an excellent performer that never really caught on, largely I think because it competed against the well-established .338.

You might want to consider the 8mm Remington Magnum.

I'm not, however, all that crazy about the idea of downloading the .338 Magnum. My experience with it in 2 rifles has been that the closer you get to the introductory loads in the published load tables is that accuracy starts to tail off considerably. Keeping the loads in the mid to upper range, though, and the .338 seems to be about as accurate as anything out there.

As for the .350-.338, you could always go the opposite direction, too...

.338 stuffed into a necked down .350 Remington Magnum. :D

[Dave Renn]

I have the 350 RM in a model 7 from Remington's (sorta')custom shop. I handload a 225 grain nosler partition. It kills elk just fine.

I also have a custom built FN 358 Norma. When I first built the gun I had the devil's time finding loaded ammo and components. I found that you can easily neck up a 338WM case to take a 358 bullet. The neck is a few thousands shorter so care should be taken with the load and seating depth. I handload a 250 grain swift A-frame. It anchors elk quite nicely, too.

Watch yer 6!
Dave Renn

[Northwest Cajun]

Thanks guys for all the posibilities, The main game would be Elk and bear. That is providing I can get back from my deployment to actually get in the woods! :banghead:
Keep the suggestions flowing, Most of the cartridges suggested so far are of the beltless designs? I'm up to making my own rounds but something about the belts makes me nurvous.

Could the P17 bolt handle the case head of a 404 Jeffery?

So now I'm at the 8mm,338 or 358 bullets on either a 30-06 or 8mm mauser brass. :cool:
Thanks guys

Cajun

[BigG]

The 458/338/300/264 Winchester family are the so-called "short magnums" (before the current super short phase). "Short" as opposed to the 300/375 H&H family. The Winchester magnums were designed to function thru a 30/06 length action.

If you are set on modifying a M1917, which can accomodate the longer H&H cartridges, you might want to consider a Weatherby cartridge like the 340 which is based on the full length H&H model. Otherwise you have an action with about 1/2" of slack in it. It would be even worse with a real short cartridge like 308/350 Rem Mag, etc.

[Mike Irwin]

Of the cartridges being discussed, only the .35 Whelen and .338-06 are beltless.

.350 RM, .338 WM, .358 NM, 8mm RM, .340WbyM are all belted magnums.

Quite frankly, I'm not crazy about the .340 Weatherby Magnum.

It can be VERY sensitive to powders and powder levels in ways that the .338 Win. Mag. isn't.

The P14/M1917 action should be able to handle the .404 Jeffrey and the cartridges based on it just fine.

The .404 isn't a belted round.

But, if you're going to go in that direction, why not go whole hog and go for one of the truly all-time great cartridges, the .416 Rigby?

Overkill, really, unless you're up against something large and furry that wants to eat you.

But, the Rigby, from what a former coworker at NRA tells me, is an absolutely WONDERFUL performer with cast bullets.

And, as with many of the English cartridges designed for African and Indian use (tropical climates), chamber pressure is kept fairly low, meaning that brass life is generally good (which is good, because .416 Rigby brass is EXPENSIVE, Norma brass runs $2 a piece!). Loaded ammo by Federal is just obscene, running about $100 per box of 20. :eek:

Finding .404 Jeffrey brass may also be one hell of a chore.

What about, you might ask, the .416s by Wby or Remington?

Thanks, no thanks. Belted, and really offer NOTHING that the .416 Rigby doesn't.