First-hand Account of Incident at National Shooting Club (from Calguns.net)


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Sven
March 9, 2003, 11:13 AM
http://calguns.net/6/ubb.x?a=tpc&s=888602736&f=751609466&m=5636083181&r=4736025181

This is the first-hand account of what when happened on July 5th 1999 at the National Shooting Club in Santa Clara, California - now Reed's Indoor Range.

Check it out. Lots you can learn from this incident.

If you enjoyed reading about "First-hand Account of Incident at National Shooting Club (from Calguns.net)" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
Preacherman
March 9, 2003, 11:23 AM
Many thanks for posting this, Sven. I agree - a whole lot to be learned from it. I've posted the link to the API List as well.

Redlg155
March 9, 2003, 12:30 PM
I agree, good information. I've always wondered about the hazards of being openly armed in a gunstore.


Good Shooting
RED

Peetmoss
March 9, 2003, 12:53 PM
Wow that was one hell of a story. Glad only the BG got hurt. A story like that makes one think.

Sven
March 9, 2003, 01:14 PM
Can you imagine what might have happened if the BG hadn't been dropped?

:what:

Blackhawk
March 9, 2003, 02:03 PM
Quite a story, and full of lessons about a lot of things. :what:

Baba Louie
March 9, 2003, 02:10 PM
Mr. Stevens chose poorly.

Poor boy. Lack of self control strikes again.

Full of pain and rage.

Hope he gets all rehabilitated whilst locked up.

Glad everyone else ended up safe. Monsters do lurk out there, don't they?

Practice, practice, practice.

Adios

MountainPeak
March 9, 2003, 03:57 PM
Very interesting story. Thanks.

Keith
March 9, 2003, 04:36 PM
Wow! That was great! It is really rare to get a debrief like this since most people in this situation are very defensive about possible civil cases. And in this case, the guy is articulate enough to tell the story in clear terms.

Keith

Drjones
March 9, 2003, 11:02 PM
That story REALLY makes me rethink my choice of 230gr. Speer Gold Dot JHP for my G30.

Perhaps a lighter bullet would in fact be better?

Thank you for posting the story, Sven!

Standing Wolf
March 10, 2003, 12:11 AM
Stevens survived his wounds due to the simply fact that there are three major trauma center hospitals in the area, he was taken to Valley Medical. It turned out that he had almost bled out completely and had to be defibrillated twice in the ambulance on the way.

There's the problem.

I used to shoot at that range every Saturday or Sunday afternoon. It was pretty safe most of the time. The people who worked there were level-headed and conscientious. Most of the equipment worked most of the time. The selection of firearms for sale wasn't very extensive, but I bought several guns there.

thumbtack
March 10, 2003, 12:14 AM
:what:

Thanks for posting the link.

HABU
March 10, 2003, 12:39 AM
I, like DrJ, am rethinking my choice of load for my Defender.:what:

MitchSchaft
March 10, 2003, 12:48 AM
am rethinking my choice of load for my Defender

Me too.

Slotback
March 10, 2003, 01:33 AM
Very interesting indeed.

SIGarmed
March 10, 2003, 01:39 AM
If you haven't visited www.ammolab.com yet and are interested in the best defensive ammunition its a good site. There are many myths that need to be dispelled.

Mordwyn
March 10, 2003, 01:49 AM
My understanding is that the Glock 30, or any compact .45 ACP pistol with a shorter barrel, needs a lighter bullet in order to get the required velocities and thus good bullet deformation when striking a soft target like a human torso. Because of this finding I carry Corbon 185 gr. JHP +p in my Glock 30

Most of the muzzle velocities shown on the boxes of ammo like the Speer Gold Dots mentioned in the article are cronographed using full sized 1911's with a standard 5 1/2 in barrel (IIRC)

Glock 30's and pistols like them just don't have the barrel length to get decent enough Velocity out of 230 gr. bullets, and so they produce sub standard results as a defensive round when used in such weapons

Poodleshooter
March 10, 2003, 03:38 PM
Glock 30's and pistols like them just don't have the barrel length to get decent enough Velocity out of 230 gr. bullets, and so they produce sub standard results as a defensive round when used in such weapons
I recently clocked a 230gr LTC handload doing 885fps from my Glock 30. This was done with a pretty fast powder (I expected it to run around 825fps). They can get up there, but you do lose about 50fps vs a 5" barreled .45

MitchSchaft
March 10, 2003, 04:05 PM
but you do lose about 50fps vs a 5" barreled .45

That doesn't seem like losing very much power:scrutiny: .

FPrice
March 10, 2003, 04:23 PM
Thanks for the posting. Some good information there.

Also, an example of how an armed citizen can prevent mass shootings.

Quartus
March 10, 2003, 05:38 PM
:confused:

I don't think its wise to refrain from shooting when an opportunity presents itself. Hoping he'll just rob and not shoot could get you killed.

Sven
March 10, 2003, 06:26 PM
Ironic how the hero later regretted asking the guy not to kill himself. If only the crook had taken care of things himself right then and there, it would have saved everyone a lot of time and money.

Instead, society gets to pay his rent and food for the next 40-60 years.

Granted, this is a human life we are talking about, but this is a human life that was planning to kill as many other humans as possible - sub-human in my book, and ripe for extermination.

Quartus
March 10, 2003, 07:06 PM
Yah, Sven, that's part of the reason for my comment. I value human life - even this kind. But there comes a point where a person has forfeited his right to life. When he points the gun and says, "gimme", he's hit that point. And at that point, I don't think it makes sense to try to find a way to "peacefully" resolve the situation. You protect the innocent, as quickly and effectively as possible. To delay shooting in hopes that it will all just go away is not sound thinking, IMO.

Sven
March 14, 2003, 01:43 AM
Re-reading my statement, that was harsh.

Ideally, there should be a guaranteed non-fatal way to completely stop an armed opponent who is planning to hurt himself or others... unfortunately, no such thing exists.

The point is: Two 230 grain HPs stopped the perp in his tracks. Stevens was completely in shock - re: what he said after being shot.

One thing the author fails to mention is what happened to the gun that was held by Stevens. Was it dropped? Kicked away? Curious about that...

Skunkabilly
March 14, 2003, 01:48 AM
One thing the author fails to mention is what happened to the gun that was held by Stevens. Was it dropped? Kicked away? Curious about that...

Don't quote me on this, but assault weapons (the Colt 9mm falls into this category in CA) ban makes it a felony to loan such a weapon. I think the original owner can be on the premises but it's a gray area.

In CA, if your buddy lets you shoot an AR at a 3-gun match and runs to take a leak, both of you are felons.

Been a while since I looked over the SB23 text, but I bet the gun's not for rent because of the ban.

CWL
March 14, 2003, 02:32 AM
I was nearby when that happened, always wondered about the full story. You couldn't get anyone at NSC to talk about it while it was under trial.

NSC was the safest indoor range in Silicon Valley/East Bay/Peninsula area. -Sometimes bad things just happen. TargetMasters and Jackson Arms are nowhere near as close in safety and management. Reeds is pretty well run today and offers some excellent classes, though they no longer sell guns there.

Couple of important facts to remember from this:

Practice constantly to get a smooth draw from holster. Practice keeps you levelheaded under stress. Muscle memory works.

You can't tell if the BG is hit. Bullet holes are SMALL, clothes obscure and it is often dark. Keep shooting until the BG stops aggression.

You cannot count rounds under stress/combat. Cocktail loads don't work because you don't know what is actually in the pipe. Practice reloading instead.

Keep moving while under fire. Move away from fire to increase distance.

230gr. Hydrashocks don't allways expand even in 5" barrels.

edited to note that the poster/survivor of this above incident has recently joined THR.

Mordwyn
March 14, 2003, 08:47 AM
I recently clocked a 230gr LTC handload doing 885fps from my Glock 30. This was done with a pretty fast powder (I expected it to run around 825fps). They can get up there, but you do lose about 50fps vs a 5" barreled .45

If I remember correctly the various tests that were done by publications like Guns and Ammo, American Hangunner and the like. 8-900 FPS or simmilar results were produced, this was not good enough for full expansion of the heavier bullet in many of the test shots, especially if the target was wearing something like a Denim jacket or heavier.

They can get up there, but you do lose about 50fps vs a 5" barreled .45

Now If I'm only loosing 50 FPS with the shorter Glock 30 barrel than means that the 185 Gr. CorBons that I carry are still getting up to between 1000 FPS and 1100 FPS or better. It may be all in my head but that extra velocity for a bullet of that size is bit of a comfort :) Its the best of both worlds (9mm vs .45)

fish2xs
March 14, 2003, 10:47 AM
The guy's a hero. I have read enough stories about those involved in justifiable shootings going through depression/guilt, etc. I wonder how
many lives the store owner saved....

Jmurman
March 14, 2003, 11:21 AM
I have just changed from Federal Hydra Shock 230 gr, to Cor Bon 185 grhp, and Speer Gold Dot 185 gr.

Jesse H
May 2, 2003, 11:40 AM
Reading that makes you want to leave work early and just work on drawing from concealment.

Thank God none of the good guys were injured.

Oleg Volk
May 2, 2003, 01:32 PM
there should be a guaranteed non-fatal way to completely stop an armed opponent who is planning to hurt himself or others

Planning to hurt himself is one thing, but anyone trying to hurt another except in self-defense needs to meet Darwin/Shiva/Haron/etc. promptly. Once outed as a willing psychopath, that person should not steal oxygen a moment longer.

Penforhire
May 2, 2003, 01:51 PM
Wow, that is a scary story! I used to shoot there too, when I lived in Redwood City. I always tend to think of ranges as the safest place on earth. I mean, we're all armed, half of us tend to be LEO's, and we're watching for unsafe behavior (at least I know I am). But opening and closing the store must be the most dangerous times.

There wasn't anything wrong with QB's ammo that a third, CNS, shot wouldn't have cured. Talk about a lucky perp.

Partisan Ranger
May 2, 2003, 02:17 PM
God almighty, what a story.

Selfdfenz
May 2, 2003, 03:26 PM
God almighty, what a story.
Amen!

"Planning to hurt himself is one thing, but anyone trying to hurt another except in self-defense needs to meet Darwin/Shiva/Haron/etc. promptly. Once outed as a willing psychopath, that person should not steal oxygen a moment longer."

That's it in a nut shell.

Hope QBG lives a long, healthy and happy life.

S-

Partisan Ranger
May 2, 2003, 03:30 PM
...I'd add that stories like this and others I've read on this board have made me say the hell with what my wife says and go out and get my first gun (well I have a .22 Remmy rifle but that doesn't count).

I'm waiting for the FFL to get to the dealer in PA and hopefully by Monday I'll have my Kahr K-9.

I'm also thinking about picking up a shotgun for HD....:)

444
May 2, 2003, 03:52 PM
Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't this guy an active member of this board ?

Archer
May 2, 2003, 04:38 PM
I'm somewhat fascinated by the negative reaction to the performance of the ammunition used in that gripping and well-told story.

Two shots- one somewhat marginal- and the goblin was stopped. The goal is to stop the goblin. He stopped, nu ?

What's the problem ?

Sven
May 2, 2003, 05:04 PM
Yes, the hero (he will downplay this label) is THR's own QuarterBoreGunner.

Here's part of the Bay Area THR crew from our recent shoot (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=17013&perpage=25&pagenumber=2#post236967) (click the link for more photos and VIDEO of jugs of water being shot with rifles):

http://www.imageseek.com/sven/2003_04_19/group_.jpg
Jim March, Sven, Atek3, QuarterBoreGunner, LabRat, MadKiwi

QuarterBoreGunner
May 2, 2003, 06:56 PM
Jeez Sven, I told you that was my goofy shooting hat! Not very heroic.

Now if I was going to pose as heroic... I'm thinking something along the lines of a Viking helmet... maybe one with the horns on the side.

Seriously, I want to thank everyone for the kind words. This is probably the most I've discussed, what was arguably The Worst Monday Night Ever. For awhile I never wanted to talk about it, for fear of being labled a 'braggart', but I've decided that if there is anything I can pass along that would ever help someone in a similar situation, then I would.

Thanks again guys (and gals)

CZ-75
May 2, 2003, 07:09 PM
I'm also thinking about picking up a shotgun for HD....

870.




Good job, 1/4 bore.

thaddeus
May 2, 2003, 09:28 PM
I am glad I finally got to read that account, years later. I was in San Diego when it happened, and I heard rumors about it. I scoured the newspapers and could not find any mention of the "heroic gun store owner stopping a crazed mass murderer".
That sounds to me like a story fit for the front page, as well as a feature in every news show. If the murderer had succeeded, hiss tory would have been everywhere. It is funny how newpapers avoid telling stories about good citizens with guns stopping a mass murder.


Re: 230gr
Through Ammolab and other studies I have found that you can't blame the weight of the bullet, but the bullet design. The 230gr HydraShok has failed way too many modern tests for me to carry it.
I believe that you are very safe carrying a 230gr Winchester Ranger T (RA45T/A) from any length barrel, though. Check out the tests on Ammolab and other places, and the 230gr Ranger gives stellar results from any length barrel, through any medium.

Carlos
May 3, 2003, 12:14 AM
Two shots- one somewhat marginal- and the goblin was stopped. The goal is to stop the goblin. He stopped, nu ?

What's the problem ?

None in my book. It was four, if I read correctly. Anyway, great post, great hero and glad he's/you're a member of this board.

Reading that post was like reading a detective novel. My hair was standing on end the whole time. :(

Glad you acted and saved lives QuarterBoreGunner. I don't know you, but you have my utmost respect.

Carl

rebbryan
May 3, 2003, 10:22 PM
*GASP* the .45 didn't completely destroy him? i don't believe it :rolleyes:

QB you have night sights on the glock?

QuarterBoreGunner
May 4, 2003, 12:15 AM
rebbryan- Yes on the night sights question, Trijicon green/green three dot.

Not really a factor though as this happend in early July and it was still light out.

Carlos- it was four shots total; two hits two misses. And yes he did stop his aggressive action by dropping the rifle and running down the driveway. If he'd been determined to go out fighting, it may have been a lot more ugly than it was. As it was I was lucky that the second shot pretty much put his right arm out of action.

PATH
May 4, 2003, 12:35 AM
Makes me stop and think about when I am at the shop closing. Being robbed is one thing but facing a guy who is nuts. Whoa!

Time for me to stop being so complacent at the store.

Jeeper
May 4, 2003, 01:53 AM
That is an amazing story. Good to see the good guys come out on top. I cant even imagine what you had to of been thinking during this situation.

Do you think that you were less afraid of the gun since you are around them so much as compared to a non-shooter?

QuarterBoreGunner
May 4, 2003, 02:32 AM
PATH- yeah I know what you mean; like I said, I have a rule= never argue with the man pointing the big loaded gun at you. If he'd been after money or guns, 'hey man you're in charge, just tell me what you want and I'll give it to you' at least until I can get a clear shot.
One thing that we (the former range owners and myself) never considered was someone coming off the range with one of our rental firearms aimed at us.

Jeeper- I think the only time that having firearms knowledge/expereince helped me was when Stevens had me and Bob up against the range wall with our backs turned.

I *knew* that he had 115grn. Full Metal Jacket ammo. I *knew* that it was in a rifle with a 16" barrel. I *knew* that if I was shot right then, that the muzzle velocity would be pretty high, the round wouldn't expand, and unless he hit me in the CNS, I still would try my damdest to draw and fire.

I don't know if that's what they call 'survival mindset' or not. At the time all I could think of was my wife and how horrible it would be for someone to tell her that I had been killed at work.

Damn. I need a drink.

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