CCW at NRA Annual Meeting


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45crittergitter
February 25, 2005, 02:25 PM
Does anyone know if CCW with permit is legal at the NRA Annual Meeting in Houston? Source of info?

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glockman
February 26, 2005, 12:00 AM
NOPE! As a life member, it has been my experience that the NRA NEVER allows ccw. Go figure.

lostone1413
February 26, 2005, 01:52 AM
That seems strange. I though they were for us gun owners. Guess when they talk about no gun control they are talking about the sport shooters. Been a life member for over 25 years but seems when it comes to the true meaning of the 2nd the NRA tries to shy away. I think for the ones who believe the 2nd is about self defense the GOA is way more apt to fight for your rights.

feedthehogs
February 26, 2005, 02:00 AM
I would say the problem is not the NRA but the convention centers that the NRA leases and their rules and regulations.

Most county owned buildings have bans on CCW due to concerts and other such events that are held there.

When the NRA was in Orlando, it was governed by the local laws which prohibited CCW in the convention center.
Metal detectors were used.

beerslurpy
February 26, 2005, 03:24 AM
That is mentally retarded. You would think an org the size of the NRA would be able to shop around until someone decided they were going to allow CCW in the meeting place.

Again, the NRA disappoints.

Jeff OTMG
February 26, 2005, 10:25 AM
As of Sept 1, 2003 I do not believe that cities may inact restrictions on CC on public property. The airports use to be restricted, but not anymore. I don't remember seeing signs at the George R. Brown Convention Center the last time I was there either.

Standing Wolf
February 26, 2005, 02:52 PM
I have a hunch the G.O.A. would respect our right to keep and bear arms.

rick_reno
February 26, 2005, 03:04 PM
They should offer an "after-life" membership - where you give them all your assets that are easily convertible into new suits for Wayne - and this membership would allow you CCW at the gatherings.
Fear not, when the going gets rough in Congress for gun rights - they'll be there fighting for the best compromise they can arrange.
Think about this...without the gun control issue, how many members would the NRA have?

peacefuljeffrey
February 27, 2005, 09:18 AM
NOPE! As a life member, it has been my experience that the NRA NEVER allows ccw. Go figure.

That makes no sense to me, and seems stupid. If you can't carry at an NRA meeting, what the hell is the NRA fighting for? They oppose restrictions on where we can carry, and they fight for expansion of the list where carry is legal. If this is about anything but the rules set down by the owners of the convention halls, then this is a hypocrisy problem. And as someone said, I would think that the NRA could find a place to hold its convention that would not get hung up on legal carry by those who have been vetted by the permitting agencies. :banghead:

I mean, people carry all over inside the gun shows they have here in S. FL. Yes, they ask people to unload and put a cable-tie around their actions at the door, but ... um... who does that? I sure as hell don't like the idea of it. And the vendors are carrying fully loaded, right? So if gun show venues apparently allow it, what's the NRA's excuse?


And to the guy above me who implies that the NRA is deliberately not winning the fight for carry freedom... What is it you think they could do that would make gun rights unassailable at any time in the future? I don't see the fight for Second Amendment rights as analogous to the perpetual war against drugs and/or crime that the police cannot afford to win. If we gave up the fight against drugs, we'd actually win in the long run. But not so with the fight against gun control.

-Jeffrey

glockman
February 28, 2005, 12:19 AM
"And to the guy above me who implies that the NRA is deliberately not winning the fight for carry freedom... What is it you think they could do that would make gun rights unassailable at any time in the future?"

Okay to answer your question, how about they stop supporting incumbent pols regardless of their actual record? How about adopting the goal of changing votes instead of counting them?

For me its gotten to the point that everytime I get one of those letters(fewer later) asking for money, I get out my checkbook and write one to the GOA. Then I send a note telling the NRA why they dont get my support. So far all I've gotten back are meaningless form letters.

rock jock
February 28, 2005, 01:17 AM
I love threads like this. They always seem to bring the NRA-bashers out in droves, spouting inaccurate and wildly speculative disinformation.

First, no one has posted any factual information that CCW will be prohibited at the annual meeting. Second, were this the case, no one has posted any evidence that this is due to NRA policy, and NOT the bldg owner.

45crittergitter
February 28, 2005, 02:28 PM
Thanks, rock jock and Jeff OTMG. Any actual info is appreciated, along with links or sources. Jeff, see
http://www.houstonconventionctr.com/about/terms.htm
and note the rule on CCW. Has this been superseded?

what42
February 28, 2005, 02:50 PM
From the terms linked to by 45crittergitter:
23 CONCEALED HANDGUNS. Possession of firearms is forbidden in the Facility with the exception of the following: (i) licensed peace officers and licensed honorably retired peace officers and (ii) exhibitors and patrons during duly licensed gun shows.

So, what's the chances that the NRA annual meeting could be considered a "gun show"?

45crittergitter
February 28, 2005, 03:11 PM
I'm thinking that the convention center is City of Houston property, and may be prohibited by Texas state preemption law from banning CCW. Anyone know?

BadWolf
February 28, 2005, 03:33 PM
Hm...

well, there were no checks done when it was held in Reno a few years back.

dolanp
February 28, 2005, 03:42 PM
Texas law does exempt any city owned or leased property from prohibiting concealed carry. However, sometimes they still check for firearms or will spread misinformation. For example, when they hold the State Fair in Dallas you are legally allowed to carry there but they have wanders and you have to be pulled aside and a Dallas PD officer has to check your CHL and allow you in. Not sure if they would do the same for this or not.

MaterDei
February 28, 2005, 04:18 PM
45crittergitter is correct. The City of Houston cannot restrict carry in city owned buildings unless they are already no CCW zones in state law. Convention centers are not on the list. I'll let you know on the 15 of April when I show up properly attired whether the NRA will allow it or not.

patentmike
February 28, 2005, 04:32 PM
From http://www.nraam.org
If they don't allow exhibitors to sell guns or ammo, it's probably not a gun show.

"The Exhibit Hall will contain one of the largest and best displays of firearms, accessories and related items in the country. Manufacturers and their representatives will be on hand -- you can discuss technical issues, handle arms and equipment and find out all the latest information. Many exhibitors will have items for sale (no firearms or ammunition). Extensive private collections will be displayed by NRA affiliated gun collector clubs. Guides and outfitters will also exhibit."

I guess if they try to disarm you illegally, the NRA will help defend you?

El Rojo
February 28, 2005, 08:53 PM
well, there were no checks done when it was held in Reno a few years back.That gets back to the "metal detector" rule of concealed carry. If there is a metal detector then you can't carry. If there is no metal detector, you can carry. That is how I determine where it is legal and illegal for me to carry in the PRK.

45crittergitter
March 4, 2005, 02:40 PM
btt

what42
March 15, 2005, 05:04 PM
I just received an email reply back from the NRA about this issue.

Thank you for contacting us. I apologize for the delay replying to your E-mail.
Firearms are not allowed at the George R. Brown Convention Center, concealed or not.
The NRA tries to find locations that are firearm friendly and can handle the extremely large numbers of Members that will attend the Annual Meeting.
Unfortunately, these locations are located in major metropolitan areas and many (if not all) do not allow weapons of any kind. Sometimes it is the policy of the convention center, however in this case the City of Houston making and enforcing the rules.
Thank you very much for your support and please feel free to contact us
if you ever need anything else!
Best Regards,
NRA Member Communications

auschip
March 15, 2005, 05:58 PM
As long as it isn't posted with a 30.06 sign you should be fine. Has anyone verified if they have a sign or not?

patentmike
March 15, 2005, 06:09 PM
Nice response from the NRA. Now it's as clear as mud.

The Exhibit Hall will contain one of the largest and best displays of firearms, accessories and related items in the country.

http://www.nraam.org/exhibitor/

TexasRifleman
March 15, 2005, 06:21 PM
That response from NRA is a load of BS.

Texas SB501 basically says that buildings owned or leased by a government entity may not be posted prohibiting carry unless it's already on the no-no list (jails, courts, schools, etc).

Text of SB501 (http://www.capitol.state.tx.us/tlo/78R/billtext/SB00501F.HTM)

According to the web site http://www.houstonconventionctr.com the convention center does belong to the city and therefore CAN NOT post 30.06 signs.

The new facility, which is owned and operated by the City of Houston, was completed “on time and under budget” with a price tag of $104.9 million.

Some cities and counties are working under the idea that if a property is leased out (convention center to NRA) then the person leasing (NRA) can post if they wish, but this has not been upheld in court yet. The Texas State Rifle Association is actively looking for cities violating this:

TSRA letter concerning SB501 (http://mailman.io.com/pipermail/pt-l/2003/000023.html)

So, if NRA tells you that you can't carry in the convention center because Houston doesn't allow it, that's a lie and shows ignorance of the laws that NRA claims to help to promote.

There is no legal reason carry would be prohibited during the convention unless NRA wishes it to be that way, period.

duckslayer
March 15, 2005, 06:35 PM
what42, have you replied to the NRA with the true answer? You can carry in that building, although it has been confusing and a pain trying to get cities to comply with the law that was passed in 03 prohibiting cities from posting thier own property. I believe the NRA in simply ignorant of the law in this case, I don't think they are conspiring to prohibit concealed handguns.

rock jock
March 15, 2005, 06:39 PM
Such a rush to judgement. There is another possibility, which is since the issue is somewhat undefined, the NRA chooses not to endorse an interpretation that may open it up to liability and criticism.

TexasRifleman
March 15, 2005, 06:45 PM
The issue isn't really undefined. NRA should have looked into that if they cared. Houston is one of the very few cities holding out against SB501 and they are not even doing that consistently. The signs are gone, but they leave wording buried in documents contrary to that.

Dallas, Ft. Worth, San Antonio, Austin, they have all removed 30.06 signs from buildings impacted by SB501, including convention centers.
I personally took on the city of Ft Worth Attorney about this at the Ft Worth Will Rogers center, which is city owned. I went there and saw the 30.06 signs, went to the city offices and met with the city attorney. The signs were gone the next day. It isn't a hard fight, someone just has to say SOMETHING.
The law is clearly on our side on this one.

Houston is begging to be the test case, and NRA chose them to host the annual meeting? Sounds like a don't care attitude to me.

Texas State Rifle Association is active fighting these issues, where NRA is ignoring them.

I'm not attacking NRA for no reason. I am a life-member, but this is an important issue to Texas residents, and I am quite unhappy that an organization I send money to is ignoring it.

TexasRifleman
March 15, 2005, 06:56 PM
Clarification of previous statement:

Houston is not challenging the validity of SB501, they are simply challenging a portion in that they believe when they rent out a city owned building, the person leasing it may post the 30.06 signs.

So, they put in the rental agreement that anyone renting the facility must agree to post signs prohibiting concealed carry.

NRA agreed to the terms and conditions of that rental agreement, so it will be NRAs responsibility to post the 30.06 signs according to the rental agreement they have signed for the convention center.

So, by choosing Houston the NRA has chosen to prohibit concealed carry themselves.

45crittergitter
March 17, 2005, 09:32 PM
Thanks so much for the info, folks. I got the same email response from NRA as was posted below. I replied that I understand TX law does not allow Houston to post the center. Please keep chasing this for us. The NRA is really gonna get a big black eye over this, and deservedly so.

csmkersh
March 18, 2005, 02:33 PM
Duckslayer,

The NRA doesn't give a ****. Their Member's Communication rep, Shawn at extension 3724, says they really don't care what Texas law says, they abrogated our rights when they, the NRA, signed the contract. How about giving him a call. Once he figures out you aren't going to listen to the nonsense, he tell you you have to write the Executive Director as he won't take you phone call.

duckslayer
March 18, 2005, 02:43 PM
I'm really sorry to hear that. I will give him a call and complain.

patentmike
March 18, 2005, 02:55 PM
For those of you not from Texas, if you see this sign you can't carry. Otherwise, you are fine. This is the only sign that will do. For example, a little gun with a line through it means nothing. What about last year's convention?


http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/administration/crime_records/chl/chlssign.htm

Golden Saber
April 6, 2005, 01:03 AM
I'm registered to attend one of the seminars and received this email today:

"For those of you that have inquired about concealed carry at the Convention Center in Houston:
The convention center prohibits concealed carry. HOWEVER NRA has negotiated through our attorneys a provision for concealed carry in our contract. Therefore, you may carry concealed in the convention center if you are in accordance with Texas state law. Please note: the firearm MUST be completely concealed at ALL times! Our security staff is working to cover the signs that prohibit firearms in the convention center, so hopefully there will be no confusion on site."

Am told that if anyone has questions, one may call NRA Membership for more information at 1-800-672-3888.

Texas, here we come.

45crittergitter
April 6, 2005, 09:27 AM
Thanks a million, Saber. Could you please forward me that email?

goodbet2001@juno.com

CentralTexas
April 6, 2005, 11:15 AM
and the women said no they say you can't carry there & I asked who is they? The women who couldn't articulate a response that I could understand did the typical thing- passed the buck & transferred me to the legal staff who took my name and number with a promise to try and find out....
CT

CentralTexas
April 6, 2005, 11:26 AM
from legal at NRA HQ. They said the restriction would be waived and carry was ok. They said it is private property and that the owner could restrict but they agreed not to. I thought Houston owned the center?????
CT

duckslayer
April 6, 2005, 11:29 AM
I'm really glad to hear the NRA is not restricting CCW. They would have lost a lot of support if they had done so and it had gotten out to the membership!

auschip
April 6, 2005, 11:52 AM
rom legal at NRA HQ. They said the restriction would be waived and carry was ok. They said it is private property and that the owner could restrict but they agreed not to. I thought Houston owned the center?????
CT

It is owned by the city.


The new facility, which is owned and operated by the City of Houston, was completed “on time and under budget” with a price tag of $104.9 million. Construction required 30 months with more than 1,200 workers on site.

From http://www.houstonconventionctr.com/about/about.htm

NRA Legal needs to do more research if they think City of Houston is doing this out of the goodness of their hearts. :cuss:

45crittergitter
April 6, 2005, 02:34 PM
Houston owns it, but TX state law says Houston can't prohibit CCW, but apparently renters (NRA) can. My take is that if it's posted, it's because NRA wanted it posted, and that NRA has no further purpose if we can't even have the Second Amendment in our own meetings. Kinda like not being allowed to bring your Bible to church.

csmkersh
April 6, 2005, 04:56 PM
Thanks for the feedback, Golden Saber. I've posted a link to your message on the newsgroup tx.guns.

GT
April 6, 2005, 06:18 PM
Here we have a classic example.
Of what? you ask.
Of operational level lawyers working out a contract that is best for them. One that limits liability and causes no friction... legally speaking. No accidental shootings; no lawsuits; none of that messy gun stuff (these are lawyers remember).

However, once the guys in charge start hearing the b*tching and moaning from the rank and file they call the lawyers and ask "what in h*ll were you thinking!?".

This happens over and over again in corporations, in government both regional and national and in all manner of businesses from sea to shining sea.

Well done guys. Keep up the good work.

On the other hand you should be pleased that the NRA is being responsive to its membership and cut it that amount of slack.

G

etex
April 6, 2005, 07:42 PM
I attended a gun show about a month ago at the convention center and the legal 30.06 signs were posted at the entrance. There were no metal detectors and the only question asked is if you had any live ammo whether or not you had a gun to sale or trade I thought the live ammo question was rather silly because as soon as you got in you could buy all the ammo you wanted and walk around with it all day. The convention center prohibits concealed carry with live ammo, the gun show exception is designed to allow people to carry an unloaded gun to sale or trade. The only true concealed carry exception is for LEO. They should change the language in there gun policy because it does make it sound like true concealed carry is allowed by citizens at gunshows.

csmkersh
April 6, 2005, 11:19 PM
He's unable to post to the news group for the time being. After my post here and then checking the posts on The High Road, he called the NRA and this is his recap:


I called the number posted at The High Road, and spoke with Bob who passed
me onto a young woman, and I have forgotten her name, with NRA/ILA regarding
the E-mail that GoldenSaber received.

I thanked her for getting this out, but have a problem with the word
NEGOTIATE, as I think the NRA had nothing to negotiate. Texas Law,
specifically SB501, which the TSRA/NRA/and the membership helped pass in the
2003 legislative session, prohibits the exact kind of crap the City of
Houston is trying to pull at the convention center. I told her that a
number of members had been complaining about the NRA Convention and no
concealed carry at the convention, and, I had called on March 18th to
express my displeasure with the NRA regarding this- quite forcefully.
Further, I told her I had intended to carry, even though I was told
emphatically the last time I called that I could not and that I must leave
it in my car. I again told her that I had intended to carry, just like
Jerry Patterson, and many others.

The young woman wanted to know if I was upset with the word negotiate and I
again said I was, and she asked me that if the NRA lawyers had negotiated
the carrying the concealed at the convention, what was the problem, as that
is negotiation. I had to explain again that the NRA had NOTHING to and had
done NOTHING for us as there is NOTHING to NEGOTIATE as Texas state law
prohibited the exact practice that the city of Houston was pulling- just
like the alert from last week concerning the city of Hampton, Virginia which
the VCDL and the NRA was fighting- the Dillon State issue and the city of
Hampton refusing to repeal it ordinances about carry at Bay Days.

This stopped in her tracks and she wanted to know what I wanted and I told
her that the NRA should have said: "Thanks to our great membership, which
pointed out the NRA/ILA was wrong, we have told the city of Houston that it
cannot prohibit us from allowing concealed carry." Further, I told her that
saving face was one thing, but admitting when you are wrong got you a lot
further in my book than just saving face. She said that there was nothing
she could do for me, and I told her that she could pass my complaint along,
and she said she would and I told her to have a nice day.

Denny Church

"No, my friend, the way to have good and safe government, is not to trust it
all to one, but to divide it among the many, distributing to every one
exactly the functions he is competent to. Let the national government be
entrusted with the defence of the nation, and its foreign and federal
relations; the State governments with the civil rights, laws, police, and
administration of what concerns the State generally; the counties with the
local concerns of the counties, and each ward direct the interests within
itself. It is by dividing and subdividing these republics from the great
national one down through all its subordinations, until it ends in the
administration of every man's farm by himself; by placing under every one
what his own eye may superintend, that all will be done for the best. What
has destroyed liberty and the rights of man in every government which has
ever existed under the sun?"

-- Thomas Jefferson, to Joseph Cabell, 1816

http://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/founders/documents/v1ch4s34.html

csmkersh
April 7, 2005, 01:54 PM
After contacting the Convention Center by e-mail, another friend learned that the NRA is taking credit for something they didn't do. The Convention Center is merely complying with Texas law. Here's the e-mail he received.



Mr. ******l,

Thank you for spotting the error on our web site regarding handguns. We
modified our rules regarding handguns when the law you cite became
effective. Unfortunately, those that maintain our web site inserted the old
version of our rules and regulations. The provision which we include in our
standard rules and regulations for those using the convention center is as
follows:

18. CONCEALED HANDGUNS.
Possession of firearms is forbidden in the Facility with the exception of
the following: (i) licensed peace officers and licensed honorably retired
peace officers and (ii) exhibitors and patrons during duly licensed gun
shows and (iii) individuals licensed by the State of Texas to carry
concealed handguns.

We will undertake to correct our web information ASAP. Please feel free to
contact me if you have questions.

Stephen W. Lewis, Deputy Director
Convention & Entertainment Facilities Department
1001 Avenida de las Americas
Houston, Texas 77010
Phone: 713-853-8888
Fax: 713-853-8091
Cell: 713-516-2581
Take a virtual tour of the George R. Brown - Click the link below!
http://www.emarketing360.com/CC/TX/Houston/GRB/index.html

If you wish, give Mr. Lewis a call and thank him for the clarification.

Walter
April 7, 2005, 10:42 PM
I personally took on the city of Ft Worth Attorney about this at the Ft Worth Will Rogers center, which is city owned. I went there and saw the 30.06 signs, went to the city offices and met with the city attorney. The signs were gone the next day.

Was this at one of the gun shows at Will Rogers? I know they prohibited CCW
at the gun shows for years, but I haven't been over there in a long time.
Are the 30.06 signs gone at the gun shows?

Walter

45crittergitter
April 19, 2005, 11:02 PM
I am happy to report that I saw no signs and that I saw some members carrying. :p

Thumper
April 19, 2005, 11:39 PM
I carried and so did No4Mk1...

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