[ShaiVong]

So i just saw that new Willis movie, Tears of the Sun yesterday, and i was wondering about the choice of sniping weapons they used.

It seemed that one of them was using an M16 with a can on it, and judging by the report (or lack there of) subsonic ammo too. It doesnt seem, to me anyway, that a subsonic sniper rifle would be all that great, in terms of range n stuff. Are they widely used? Another sniper was using a scoped M14 (or what appeared to be one). That makes more sense to me, although i didnt think that M14's were precise enough to be considered a 'sniper rifle'.

All in all, it was an O.K. movie. Some parts were really good, others just didnt cut it. Like the SF guys walking in a line through the clearing firing full auto.. Gimmie a break. And there were a few throat sliting incidents, whereas i have been lead to believe that SF generally stuck a knife in your kidneys, which is faster and quieter. Whatever.

Anyone else see it yet?

[MLC]

The M-21 sniper rifle is based on the M-14 rifle which was adopted by the United States military as the issued infantry rifle in 1957. The biggest change was the addition of a 3-9x ART (Automatic Ranging Telescope) that was designed to allow the sniper to sight in on targets accurately and with less guesswork than earlier sniper scopes. Internally, the M-21 has a match-grade barrel for greater accuracy and a specially-tuned trigger assembly for greater consistency and accuracy. Early models were fabricated with a hardwood stock, but Later rifles were issued with a lighter fiberglass stock that is sometimes camouflaged. from specwarnet.com

Designated Marksman Rifle (http://www.mt2-kmi.com/features/7_8_Art1.cfm) http://www4.aixgaming.com/opend/albums/marines/z_usmc06.jpg

edited to enhance clarity:
I was trying to convey the timeline/use of the M-14 as a sniper rifle in our military forces.

[COHIBA]

it still aint an SSG.

[Porter Rockwell]

Hello, what isn't an SSG? The M-21 that has Steel magazines and a stock that doesn't warp in the sun?
It's only my opinion gents but if you'd really like to become experts in military small arms and battle tactics I suggest a tour of active duty.
It's called thr American Way!
As for movies, well they're just hollywood brain mush and propaganda you're required to purchase!
Best!

[Harold Mayo]

It's only my opinion gents but if you'd really like to become experts in military small arms and battle tactics I suggest a tour of active duty

A tour of active duty as an infantryman (or even in some elite unit) doesn't make you an expert in military small arms, that's for sure.

The best that I know has military, LE, AND civilian training and does it for a living. He trains military, LE, and civilians. Even he laughs at the thought that soldiers are proficient with weapons. It's all about unit tactics, not individual skill.

I've never served in the military and know more about and am more proficient in the use of most small arms than 99% of the active and former military personnel that I have met.

INTEREST, RESEARCH, TRAINING, and PRACTICE make you an expert. Most guys in the military get a little bit of the latter two and that's about it.

AND...

The M-14 or M-21 is no SSG...but the SSG is definitely NOT an M-14 or M-21, either.

[Porter Rockwell]

I fully understand your position and could just as easily say that most veterans never saw any form of combat but I was in the bust Walter Mittys chops mode.
We've got a war going on and somewhere out there GIs are learning the hard way that war ain't like the movies at all.
All the reading and research will not determine how a soldier reacts underfire and weapons trivia is the last thing on his mind.
I believe in many cases "been there" does give more credibility than the armchair commando, that's why I think Jim Cirillo would be a better "expert" than say Brian Enos or Rob Leatham when discussing self defence.
Sorry, I bounced around Harold, too much coffee recovering from last evenings VFWs think tank he-he.
Best

[Handy]

That mix of weapons is what Seals are currently employing. I was looking at a buddies field pictures the other day. The MP5SDs are on the way out in favor of subsonic .223 ammo in an AR15 based platform. Select fire M14s are also common for sniping or battle rifle use (usually with folding stock in the latter).

[Harold Mayo]

I believe in many cases "been there" does give more credibility than the armchair commando, that's why I think Jim Cirillo would be a better "expert" than say Brian Enos or Rob Leatham when discussing self defence.


Much agreed on that! I posted something similar in some thread some time ago.

Skill at arms does not equate to survivability, either. It contributes, but in a very small way. Most people don't really realize that. I would rather have surprise than skill, for instance.

My first experience with Simunitions taught me a lot about what you should and shouldn't do in a gun fight. I would love for someone to do IDPA or IPSC with Simunitions (or Airsoft or paintball) used by antagonists. THAT would teach some people proper use of cover and some discretion...especially if all you got to wear was eye protection!

:D

[MLC]

My first experience with Simunitions taught me a lot about what you should and shouldn't do in a gun fight. I would love for someone to do IDPA or IPSC with Simunitions (or Airsoft or paintball) used by antagonists. THAT would teach some people proper use of cover and some discretion...especially if all you got to wear was eye protection!
I wish the shooting games like IDPA, IPSC would do something like that as well. I play paintball but find the ballistics and projectiles irritatingly inadequate. I'd imagine that I could be called an armchair commando,but, I only try to pass on accurate information that I have learned to folks who have misconceptions.
I am no expert nor do I play one on televison.

[Slick]

:p
Harold,
I'd pay admission to see that!!
:D :D

[Harold Mayo]

Surprise or sounder tactics than your enemy trumps skill at arms or weapon quality in almost any situation.

[ShaiVong]

Me and my buddies have airsoft wars in the wing of our college after the professors head home (about 4pm). I've got three 'pimples' across my face that proove i have alot to learn about combat (even though I've only lost one 2 outa 3 round). The first time i played laser-tag, i realized how long i would(nt) last in combat, even though I always finished in the top 5 =P

Ill second that, gimme suprise over skill any day, or a handfull of luck. Better yet, gimmie all three
:D

[TaxPhd]

SSG, IIRC, would be a Styer-Mannlicher rifle, .308 cal, usually (but not always) with double-set triggers, and a five round detachable mag.

Was a favorite of John Thomas Rourke in the "Survivalist" series of books by Jerry Ahern.

[Jim K]

I think that theme was cut off too soon. The fact is that weapons knowledge alone means little in combat. I was in the Army, in peacetime, and never fired a shot in anger, but I have pretty firm ground for saying that many, if not most, soldiers are not especially good shots or real weapons experts. But they get the job done due to discipline, team work and courage.

A comparison may be that of one guy who is an expert on baseballs, who knows every stitch, and all the materials, and the makers, and the changes over the years; but he is 5' 3", 75 years old, and weighs 120 pounds soaking wet. Another guy is Sammy Sosa, who probably doesn't know or care how they made baseballs in 1902, but who knows what to do when one is thrown toward him.

Also, the folks on forums like these tend to think only of small arms. A favorite topic is, "What would you carry in Iraq, or wherever?" The answer, as any military or ex-military man knows is, "What they give you and don't get caught with anything else!"

And of course rifle folks always see themselves popping off neatly exposed enemies one at a time, one shot, one kill. It don't work that way. There is a lot of support, more than ever before, for the grunt. Believe me, he makes use of it. No charging machine gun nests or running into mortar fire when artillery or laser bombs will take care of the problem with no one of any importance getting hurt.

Jim

[ShaiVong]

Well said.

It goes along the same line as LE dudes. I tried to interview one for a ENG 215 paper about handguns, (specifically, if he preferred Glock, CZ or HK) and he just shook his head and told me he knew nothing about handguns. Not all soldiers and LE guys are really into firearms. I would wager most of the 'gun nuts' who join the military and LE bell curve into SF and SWAT.

[dude]

Pretty 'interesting' stuff you armchair commandos are posting on this thread.

......actually it's laughable!!

What is amusingly obvious is that those of you who were never in the Military......... don’t know jack about the Military. Do go on with your ‘training’ though and keep ‘playing guns’....paintball and airsoft style as it will put you ahead of %99 of the Military. Oh, and don’t forget watching war movies and giving your ‘expert’ opinions.

Please continue!

[Harold Mayo]

Pretty 'interesting' stuff you armchair commandos are posting on this thread.

......actually it's laughable!!

What is amusingly obvious is that those of you who were never in the Military......... don’t know jack about the Military. Do go on with your ‘training’ though and keep ‘playing guns’....paintball and airsoft style as it will put you ahead of %99 of the Military. Oh, and don’t forget watching war movies and giving your ‘expert’ opinions.

Please continue!

What is most laughable is when someone criticizes as if HE is an "expert" and then doesn't present anything to the contrary.

OK, "expert"...disprove what has been said here...if you are capable of doing anything other than running your mouth, that is.

[ShaiVong]

And why do you assume that we think airsoft/paintball=training, and that airsoft makes us military superior? Are you saying that the vast majority of military men are gun aficionados? I come from two generations of military men, and neither of them know much about guns. Bless us with how it really is, oh great one.

[Harold Mayo]

Gotta say more...

Dude apparently thinks that the Simunitions training, without a doubt the closest thing that you can get to real gunfighting without getting killed, means nothing.

Dude apparently thinks that good tactics and teamwork are not essential to the military.

I guess Dude has trained with live weapons and ran around trying to prove that he doesn't need the support of his unit in a fight.

This is what Dude seems to be saying, since that is what the thread has said and he has disputed it.

Dude...tell us your real name...are you really H. Norman Schwartzkopf cruising the internet in your retirement? Tell us how it REALLY is, Dude.

[ShaiVong]

What does the army use in MOUT for its paintbullets? Maybe i should call them, and a few SWAT teams and tell 'em their wasting my tax dollars.

[Art Eatman]

Aw, now, dude, just relax...:)

I spent four years, three months and twenty-two days, but who's counting?

I had well over a thousand rounds of '06 behind me before I was drafted, and a lot of it was handloads. Lots of that was through a Garand, and I did a lot less officially-sanctioned shooting after Basic than during. During Occupation duty in Korea in '54/'55, the only small arms shooting I did was when I'd "liberate" a 600-round can of Carbine ammo from the arms shack and go down to the beach at Inchon and shoot seagulls. M2s and seagulls are an interesting combination.

So, no, I never saw combat. For whatever reason, though, I've always assessed whatever countryside in which I was hunting from the standpoint of guerilla warfare or small-unit tactics. Same sort of deal when walking a city street in Yellow.

I've successfully avoided trouble for a long, long time--but I'd like to believe that the mix of ROTC and Army training plus some basic smarts sorta keeps me from being an armchair commando. :D

Art

[7.62mm]

MLC:

Is that a MacMillan E-2 type stock on that M-21?

Thanks.

7.62mm

[SIGarmed]

The USMC doesn't have any m21's. That picture is of a supressed DM rifle.

[Handy]

I guess we have to post credentials. Navy, 6 years, helicopter pilot, worked with Seals, have Expert ribbons in rifle and pistol.

Based on my VAST military experience, I would agree that Dude's post is silly and has no valid basis.

[Art Eatman]

Handy: :D

This whole website exists in large part to share information and opinion. As long as there is common sense in the opinions and reasonable accuracy in the information presented, I don't see where one's actual experience really increases the common sense or accuracy.

The deal is, really, that we are free to put down ideas, but we ain't gonna put down people.

:), Art

[TaxPhd]

Oops! Misread your post, Porter. Reread it, and you are very clear on what a SSG is. Sorry.

[EchoSixMike]

Lots of guys in the military don't know very much, they generally don't matter either. Some guys become very proficient yet don't know much about their tools, these guys are useful. A few get very good and know everything there is to know about every aspect of their job. These few are priceless because they are essential to the entire concept of special operations warfare.

S/F...Ken M

[Handy]

Art,

You don't have to tell me that. My last post was making fun of my "experience" as much as teasing Dude for his dismissiveness.

I listen to anyone makes a good case and wish for the same when I post.

[MrAcheson]

Weapons are only part of the equation. Tactics are often far more important to an engagement. Just for fun, people used to put Vets against whiz kids in "combat" games like Battletech. The Vets couldn't work the controls worth a damn, but they still won because they had a better understanding of small unit tactics.

[Art Eatman]

Aw, Handy, sometimes I do sorta go to preachin' to the choir...

:), Art

[Gordon]

BTW, Art did that carbine jam on full auto or did it run smooth?:D

[Art Eatman]

Amazing how a little bit of lubricant makes metal parts slide smoothly! My dear ol' granddaddy taught me that. I wound up with the only remaining go-banging Garand, during a Basic Training "Transition Firing Course" on account of cheating and taking a little can of gun oil to the range. The other guys' rifles were all nice and dry for white-glove inspections.

My M2 always chattered happily. Like the old Bryl-Creem ad sez, "A little dab'll do ya."

:), Art

[tommytrauma]

Pretty 'interesting' stuff you armchair commandos are posting on this thread.

......actually it's laughable!!

What is amusingly obvious is that those of you who were never in the Military......... don’t know jack about the Military. Do go on with your ‘training’ though and keep ‘playing guns’....paintball and airsoft style as it will put you ahead of %99 of the Military. Oh, and don’t forget watching war movies and giving your ‘expert’ opinions.

Please continue!
Hmmm, a bunch of guys on a firearms discussion board discussing the guns used in the latest popular action adventure movie. You feel a need to express your contempt because... why?