ISO Objective Information on Waco


March 9, 2003, 02:03 PM
I'm interested in finding objective information on what happened at Waco, and would appreciate pointers to any good sources.

For example, what laws had been broken, what steps were taken, etc.

I just want the facts.



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March 9, 2003, 02:06 PM
My dad used to work for JTF-6, based out of el paso, they trained the police in use of equipment and provided a lot of the military equipment used in Waco. I'll see what he can tell me (it was a bad mark on JTF-6 for possibly overstepping constitutuional boundaries so they try and keep it from getting back into the media as best they can). I'll ask him and report back when I am back home and on my own computer.

March 9, 2003, 02:40 PM
No More Wacos by David B. Kopel and Paul H. Blackman.

Written by lawyers so take a caffeine pill before reading.

March 9, 2003, 02:57 PM
No More Wacos by David B. Kopel and Paul H. Blackman.

Agreed, the above is the most thorough and least biased book I have read on Waco.

Also consider "This Is Not an Assault" by David T Hardy.

There is interesting info here:

although I find their theory that the documentary "Rules of Engagement" was government disinformation a tad strange.


Art Eatman
March 9, 2003, 03:15 PM
There were various bits of stuff about how BATF got curious in the first place. There was some information given by sellers of bits and pieces which convert AR15s to full auto. UPS guys supposedly got curious about the amount of gun-stuff they delivered. Regardless of specifics, bits and pieces of this sort of info did get to BATF and so they started their investigation.

They found enough "suspicious" stuff to apply for a warrant. This is where upper levels in the administration got into the idea of "The Raid". Working backwards in time, there were to be budget hearings in Congress roughly two weeks after the date of the raid. They had JTF-6 provide locale (Fort Hood) and personnel for training. IIRC, the search warrant was signed in early January.

I read a copy of the search warrant. It alleged that Koresh had become a recluse and was not available for an on-the-street arrest. This is where the lying began, as Koresh wandered freely about the Waco area until a few days before the raid.

The McClennan County (Waco) sheriff stated in a newspaper interview, right after the raid, that anytime he wanted to talk to Koresh, he'd phone and Koresh would readily come down to the SO. Koresh had followed this pattern during a State investigation into allegations of child abuse (cleared) and allegations of drug-lab activity (cleared) and noise-disturbance from shooting (cleared).

It is not definitively known who fired the first shot at the time of the BATF raid. From that first shot onward, personal viewpoints and general confusion make it difficult to really know "truth".

To me, from the first day the FBI moved in, some variety of that tragic denouement was a given.


March 9, 2003, 07:00 PM
I can't remember the author's name, but "On The Ashes of Waco" is excellent.

If you're willing to put in the time and expense, C-SPAN covered the congressional hearings in both the House and Senate. They would prolly sell you copies of the tapes.

These hearings were exhaustive. An enormmous amount of damning information came out, even as hard as the demoncraps tried to hide it.

Over on the Senate side, EVEN DIANE FEINSTEIN was pretty well convinced that it was a massacre.

Art Eatman
March 9, 2003, 11:27 PM
James Pate wrote a series of articles for SOF Mag, and while his biases show, I believe that what he reported as fact is indeed correct. He does separate speculation from those items not in dispute. Excellent coverage, all the way through the trial in FedCourt in San Antonio.

Pate, or others from SOF, seem to be the first to unearth the JTF-6 connection.


March 10, 2003, 08:52 AM

I had forgotten about Pate's articles in SOF. You're right, they were outstanding.

March 10, 2003, 09:23 AM
I will second Ashes of Waco by Dick J. Reavis. A very fair and even-handed look at events. The author was a writer for some left-of-center "Alternative Newspaper" who basically set off to investigate the Waco thing on his own stick. A fascinating read.

Cold Zero has the view from an FBI sniper's viewpoint. This should be read and understood.

March 10, 2003, 10:37 AM
Ashes of Waco. The videos floating around give good objective info also. Objective muzzle flashes on film. "We never fired a shot" is a subjective statement they made.

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