Interesting


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1911Tuner
February 27, 2005, 09:18 AM
Picked up a few boxes of Winchester 230-grain JHP ammo the other day.
White Box USA45JHP...They feed flawlessly in a stock Remington Rand and a
1918 Colt GI...with unthroated barrels...from GI "Hardball" type magazines.
Hand-feeding the rounds into two other stock GI pistols...from GI magazines...
produced nary a hitch, though I haven't actually fired the other two.

Ain't that a daisy? :p

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Old Fuff
February 27, 2005, 11:56 AM
I AM SHOCKED!! :what:

You mean that if you take a pistol that was actually made to print dimensions with everything within allowable tolerances and made from the correct materials - along with the ammunition John Browning designed it around the pistol actually works ... ?? :eek:

Who would have thunk???? :neener: :D

PS: Don't tell anyone, but my guns do the same ... have been for years. :scrutiny:

1911Tuner
February 27, 2005, 12:02 PM
Fuff said:

> with the ammunition John Browning designed it around the pistol actually works<
*************

Not quite, mah fren...The ammo is Winchester's 230-grain JHP...and the hollow cavity is both deep and wide. Further testing gave the same results
with Golden Saber and an old lot of Black Talon...and a new lot of LEO only Ranger ammo. All hollowpoints...All fed into GI throats from GI magazines.

Now...Ain't THAT a daisy! :D

Jim Watson
February 27, 2005, 12:08 PM
I think the ammo companies have finally gotten the idea that their bullets need to work through the gun and not just make nice mushrooms for the advertising.

Most of the modern ogival hollowpoints feed very well, unlike the old Norma softpoint and Super-Vel hollowpoints I recall. Those didn't feed in my 1918 vintage Colt and I found myself with an expanding (hopefully) bullet in the chamber and hardball in the magazine.

I'll have to give it a whirl with some of the current stuff.

Old Dog
February 27, 2005, 12:38 PM
I've recently picked up a few boxes of that stuff (good prices in my area) and have had similiar positive results in my old stock Colt's and SAs ...

Old Fuff
February 27, 2005, 12:40 PM
Darn!! My mistake. It's early and I need more coffee ... :what:

Think the cartridge's overall length has anything too do with anything???

1911Tuner
February 27, 2005, 01:08 PM
Jim! Those old 185-grain Super Vels were truly awful, weren't they? :p

Fuff! You need a little North Cackalackey Turbocoffee. Good for what ails ya. :cool:

The overall lengths on the Winchester Hollowpoints are quite a bit shorter than hardball averages, but I think it's got more to do with the bullet ogive
being close to hardball profile. Black Talons, Golden Saber, and the Winchester bullets all approximate that shape. I tried the Talons in a few of my GI pistols when they hit the market...and they fed just fine, even through
hardball magazines. They feed a little smoother with more modern magazines,
of course...but then, so does hardball. The old Hydra-Shok gave some trouble with GI magazines, but most of the old pistols would eat'em with the
newer magazines pretty reliably...and an Ithaca ate'em like candy with late-production Colt magazines.

Jim Watson
February 27, 2005, 01:46 PM
Old Hydrashok ---- New Hydrashok.

One of the gunwriters said Hydrashok had been through five generations, and that several years ago.

I have seen three obvious by appearance,
truncated cone, short OAL ogival, long OAL ogival.

Maybe the other two were internal differences or changes too subtle for me to spot; but there are differences in the design and operation.

One reason to be wary of the bullet of the month. The factory can and will make changes without notice. Find something you like, try to stock up out of that same lot number; the next batch might not be the same stuff under the familiar label.

Old Fuff
February 27, 2005, 02:58 PM
>> Fuff! You need a little North Cackalackey Turbocoffee. Good for what ails ya. <<

BUT .... :eek: but I just wanted to wake up, not go into orbit ... :what:

Is it true that you now load cartridges with Turbocoffee instead of gunpowder ... :neener:

Rob96
February 27, 2005, 02:59 PM
Now just to test this out........Try it with Gold Dots, Flying Ashtrays, and whatever other blunt nosed JHP you can find.

stans
February 27, 2005, 05:09 PM
Flying ashtrays, if you can find any, had a real spotty reputation for feeding. They had a huge, gaping hollow cavity. Modern hollowpoint 45 ACP bullets are just as effective, but feed in a much wider range of guns.

Black Snowman
February 27, 2005, 06:21 PM
I put some old Sierra SportMaster 230 gr JHPs thorugh my CZ 97B without a hitch. HUGE cavity. Pretty much looked like the old flying ashtrays. Then tried some Berry's 185 gr plated SWC. They only fed about 90% of the time. They didn't play nice with the feed ramp, just too short of a nose and too steep of a shoulder. Heavier ones would probably work OK once I found the right COL.

The best feeding bullet next to RN I've found so far are the Hornady XTPs. They seem to get gobbled up in my guns just as easily as FMJ. Don't open up quite as fast as some others and give good penetration too. Althought the latest generation of Gold Dots look hard to beat.

shoot870p
February 27, 2005, 10:38 PM
Tuner and others
having a SA worked on and sent some gold dots along for the ride for testing and such. should I "expect" these to feed given a ramp and polish bit of work? hardball does fine and these are the first h.p. rounds.

stans
February 28, 2005, 07:45 AM
Then tried some Berry's 185 gr plated SWC. They only fed about 90% of the time. They didn't play nice with the feed ramp, just too short of a nose and too steep of a shoulder. Heavier ones would probably work OK once I found the right COL.
The 200 grain Berry's plated SWC profile does not follow the classic H&G #68 mold design. Again, Berry's opted for a very short and blunt profile with a large shoulder. I have more difficulty getting these bullets to function reliably than the H&G design. I haven't a clue as to why Berry's picked this design. Ranier's plated 200 grain SWC is pretty close to the H&G #68 mold.

Old Fuff
February 28, 2005, 10:34 AM
The relationship between cartridge O.A.L. and the magazine lip's release point is a critical one. If the bullet's nose hits the feed ramp while the case is still held at the back by the lips a stovepipe is almost certain. Why the ammunition makers couldn't get this through their heads I don't know. :banghead:

You also see pistols that lack the gap between the feed ramp and barrel throat. Browning put it there for a purpose, but with all hands going at it to polish (?) their feed ramps and further throat barrels that are already throated can leave a mighty mess. :fire:

I prefer to use hardball of various configurations because I want the feeding reliability and extra penetration they offer. Others however sometimes come to me and beg that I do somethime with their pistol so that it will feed (whatever). I have found that in most cases if the magazines are right (meaning lips, springs and follower) and the extractor is correctly fitted and tensioned Ol' Slabsides can be made to feed almost anything - including empty cases just for grins. :evil: :D

Jim Watson
February 28, 2005, 10:36 AM
But not close enough. I never could get Ranier plated SWC to shoot reliably in two guns set up for cast "#68 Style" bullets, and I ran OAL and crimp all over the map.

Old Fuff
February 28, 2005, 10:46 AM
Yup, I understand. That's why I said "most cases." I think some of these bullets should be restricted to revolvers and nothing else.

I am at a loss as to why some people are willing to give up reliable feeding in exchange for an expanding bullet that under real life rather then labratory conditions may not expand at all.

Black Snowman
February 28, 2005, 11:55 AM
'Fuff has a very valid point. Reliability is top priority. If I ever have a problem with any bullet in any of my guns I don't consider it as a viable defensive option. But, if it has worked ever time, hundrads of times, I don't mind having the chance of getting an extra large wound cavity, but I sure ain't going to count on any kind of "one shot stop" from anything short of a M.O.A.B. ;)

As for those Berry's bullets, I do happen to have a .45 ACP revolver that I can chew them up in. It is, in fact, the gun I got them for since a FWC that would work in a 45 ACP case are somewhat hard to come by. :)

Sam
February 28, 2005, 11:57 AM
Fuff,
They do it because somebody from the sales dept. of an ammo company told them it was the latest greatest thing to do. It might have been an unemployed cop or plumber though. People are impressionable I guess.
Course some folks vote Communist too so we shouldn't be surprised.

Sam

Old Fuff
February 28, 2005, 04:52 PM
I suppose you're right. They probably only test the stuff in a fixture, not a pistol ... :rolleyes:

grendelbane
February 28, 2005, 08:54 PM
If these 230 grain W-W JHP's are the same bullets that Midway sells in bulk, then I have also had good success with them. They have fed 100% in my Gold Cup, my Franken45, a Para-Ordnance, a Mech-Tech carbine, an LAR Grizzly Mark I, and they have been about 98% in my S&W 625.

Of course I attribute the last one to operator error. :p

Judging by my experiences with the Grizzly, you don't have to worry about pushing this bullet too fast. It holds together remarkably well at high velocity. Just don't expect much in the way of penetration! ;)

I like bullets that feed well. I like bullets that cost little. Usually, I prefer Remington, especially for .38 Super. However, in .45, I favor the Winchester bullet.

I saw some 230 grain jacketed SWC's the other day, made by Magtech. Yes, it is a jacketed bullet. Yes, it does have a shoulder. I haven't had a chance to load these yet. I am working too much. :cuss:

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