[jondwright]

I had my garand cherry busted last Saturday, and I've been researching the CMP program all week. I'm close enough to make a journey there, and I plan to soon. I'm also trying to catch up on my WW2 rifle history, and I'm getting the impression that I could start WW2 collection reasonably cheap. Is this true?

What would be the rifle of choice from each of these countries? I'm not necessarily talking about your favorite, but the standard issue.

USA (Do I want the Garand for this collection, or the Carbine?)
Brittain
Germany
Russia

Where are the best places to buy these rifles cheap? This thought sprouted from a gentleman that said in another thread that you might get a Mosin, Mauser, and Enfield all for $300.

Sorry it's so long. Brief replies just fine!

[TexasRifleman]

As long as you stay away from the full-auto weapons, it's not too bad. If you're OK with shooting a reproduction, then even that arena is opened up to you.

I know you asked about other countries, but consider just the US and what's available.

I have now:
Garand
M1 Carbine
BAR (A3 semi version from Ohio Ordnance)
Thompson M1 (There is a guy in Colorado
that will take the current manufacture Kahr semis, and with a Form 1,
make a short barreled clone that is practically indistiguishable from the
real deal. As soon as ATF finished the Form 1 I get that one back.)

I do have a couple of class 3's that I bought back in the 80's before things went nuts, but I no longer shoot them. I have a "real" BAR and M1 Thompson but I shoot the semi's and they are still great fun and usually a lot more accurate.

So you CAN have an almost complete WWII collection if you're willing to go semi.

There are guys making Browning 1919 MGs, MG42's etc in semi autimatic as well. M3 grease guns, stens, sheesh. You name it.

A big portion of these repros are original parts, mainly it's the receiver and trigger group parts.

And, if you're gonna shoot instead of just collect and look at, your're not killing the value of a "genuine" WWII arm.

Just my opinion, but the collection looks great, and no one can tell, or cares, that some of them are semi.

Next on my list is a Browning 1919-A6 in semi. Come on tax refund :)

[jondwright]

Thanks Texas. I had planned on buying some reproduction stuff, if I'm right about what that means. I want to both display it AND shoot it, so I wouldn't want anything that shooting would cause its value to decrease.

I don't have much to spend, so I wanted to start with 1 from each of the 4 countries listed, then consider other guns and other countries. I wanted to make sure I knew definitevly what the starting point was. Basically, most commonly issued rifle. I guess if one was an automatic, I am out of luck... but where to go from there?

[jondwright]

Also Texas, if one gun represents USA and WW2, it would be the Garand right? Not the carbine?

[jnmullin]

If you really want to collect old surplus stuff, consider getting a C&R license. It will save a lot on transfer fees as well as getting you some pretty good discounts from Midway, Brownells, etc.

With a C&R, the prices for the guns you are looking for should run about:
Britain: No4 Mk1 Enfield $100-150
Germany: K98k Mauser ~$180-200
Russia: any of the Mosin Nagants should be less than $100

I am pretty sure AIM (aimsurplus.com) and Centerfire (centerfiresystems.com) have all of these in stock.

Also, consider getting one (or several) of the Swiss K31s. They are great shooters and are like $80 from AIM.

Hope this helps,
John

[jobu07]

You might look into a Carcano rifle. The Italians were a major player in the African and Southern European Axis operations. You usually seem the very cheap at gun shows too. Ammo might be a problem for shooting them, i'm not totally well versed in thier caliber, but it can make a nice addition to your collection.

[George S.]

Look into getting a BATF "C&R" license. This Curio and Relic license will allow you to purchase a wide variety of old weapons from vendors at much lower costs and a lot of the supply houses like Brownell's, Midway USA and such will even give you some very decent discounts on their catalog prices.

There is information about ho to get the license on the BARF website.

If there is a Big 5 Sporting Goods store in your area, they usually carry WWII era rifles likes the Mosins (91/30, M38, M44), Enfields, Turkish Mausers and a few others. They are all imports so they typically wil have the importer name stenciled into the metal with a new serial number, but for the most part they are all "shooters". Wait for each type to come on sale and go look at them.

Some may be rough, but occasionally you find nice examples. Last year, I found a 1931 hex receiver 91/30 with all matching numbers and it's in excellent condition. Paid all of $79.95 for it. It will shoot 6-8" groups at 200 yards which was the Russian standard for the basic infantry rifle at the time.

[TexasRifleman]

As for the Garand, absolutely that's the gun that represents the US.

The Carbine and Thompsons are cool, but the M1 Garand won that war....
Oh, when you hang around the old timers, no one calls it a Garand, it's just an M1 :)

You say you want to start on a budget, but it will be a longtime addiction, and a very rewarding hobby.

All the guys saying get a C&R are right on the money also.

Good luck!

http://homepage.mac.com/jayc67/004_poster.jpg

[jondwright]

Thanks for the advice, now I know where to start:

1. C&R
2. M1
3. Britain: No4 Mk1 Enfield
4. Germany: K98k Mauser
5. Russia: Mosin Nagants
6. Italy: Carcano

[Joe Demko]

I think the Japanese might also have been involved in WWII. If that turns out to be the case, you would want to add an Arisaka to that list.

[jobu07]

Touche` Joe ;) You might have to add a 1917 enfield "eddystone" on the list as well. And then again, you need to throw on the venerable 1903 springfield because, well, just because. You'll want SMLE No1 Mk III enfield too!

[BenW]

Jon -- Your list plus what Joe said.

[jondwright]

1. C&R
2. M1
3. Britain: No4 Mk1 Enfield
4. Germany: K98k Mauser
5. Russia: Mosin Nagants
6. Italy: Carcano
7. Japan: Arisaka

I will probably get at least the first 5 before I start doubling up on one country by getting a

8. enfield "eddystone"
9. 1903 springfield
10. SMLE No1 Mk III enfield

*My C&R application is on the way.

[secluded]

Don't forget a few others such as the Swiss K31 (as already mentioned) and the Swedish Mausers. Both of these are known for their inherent accuracy and fine craftsmanship.

I got my C&R about 2 years ago, best $30.00 I ever spent.

You might want to also get a subscription to Shotgun News. It is about $30.00 a year but it comes out several times a month and the subscription arrives about a week before you can buy it at the newstand. If a supplier has a good price and/or low quanities that week can make a difference between getting one and missing out.

BTW - You'll also need a French MAS 36, Turkish Mauser, Persian Mauser, Steyr M95, 1903 Springfield, Yugo SKS, Albanian SKS, Russian SKS, SVT........(it never ends :D )

[jefnvk]

I have the main battle rifle from each of the Big 5 in WWII: US, Britain, Russia, Germany, Japan. Excluding the M1, it cost me $225 and an 870 Express.

The 91/30 came from a local Dunhams for $75.

The K98 was $150 at a local gunshop, although the barrel was cut back about a quarter of an inch by the previous owner. Its saving grace though is not only is it a German surplus, it is also an Iraqi surplus.

The Enfield and the Arisaka I got in a trade for the 870, along with me recieveing a 10/22. They both came from my dad's friend, whose dad brought the Arisaka back from Okinawa, and whose uncle brought the Enfield back from France. The Enfield was packed in a heavy grease (definitely not cosmo) for the past 50 years, so it is in great shape. The Arisaka is rough, and a very good gunsmith told me not to shoot it, so it won't be shot. It was actually a school trainer rifle, and included the original sling and bayonet, which are actually worth more than the rifle.

The M1 actually cost me more than the other rifles combined. I went to CMP to buy it, as I live about 3 hours away. I am so satisified with the service, next week I'll be making another pilgrammage to pick up an 03 :D Gotta start branching out into the lesser issued rifles now, which unfortunately is going to require much more money.

Huh, to answer your question now, 91/30 for the Russkies, No.4 for the Brits (which I believe also covers the Canadians), US RIFLE CAL .30 M1 for the good guys, a K98k for the Deutsch, and an Arisaka (38 or 99? I think both were equally used) for the Rising Sun Empire.

[Cosmoline]

Unfortunately you will find that US WWII era rifles are far and away the most expensive out there. An intact, uncut Springfield 1903 will run you three or four times what a similar Mauser-pattern rifle from another country would. Garands have gone from being deeply discounted to quite pricey. "Saving Private Ryan" bears quite a bit of the blame, along with the resurgence in WWII nostalgia in the US. A lot of rich boomers with no real interest in firearms still want to have a WWII era rifle to hang on the wall to remind them of pop.

We poor gen-x'ers have been left to scrounge the other nations, and let me tell you there's real gold in those mines. Consider Finnish Mosin-Nagants, for example. The chances of your Garand having actually seen combat are nearly zero. But you'll still have to pay $500 to $900 bucks for it (outside the CMP program). On the other hand you can get a Finnish Mosin from the Winter War/Continuation War era that actually saw the rough end of some of the 20th century's most brutal warfare for under $250. You can also find mint condition M-39's from later in the conflict for under $200. And frankly they are all better quality than the vaunted Springfields.

Not to dis the US, but frankly if you're on a budget it pays big time to focus on the overseas C&R rifles and limit your US collection to an old CMP Garand.

[Kingson]

You might want to change the title of this thread from "Want to collect *and* shoot WW2 Rifles" to "I want to empty out my bank account and be in debt for a very long time". There are so many diffrent kinds of the same rifle that if you really get in to collecting them then you will just have to have them all, but that the fun of it is finding all the diffrent kinds and trying to figure out ,do I really need to eat today because I really want that nice old Mil Surp that's calling my name out in the corner to take it home. :D

[30Cal]

The chances of your Garand having actually seen combat are nearly zero.
I dunno about that. I think over half of the M1's were built prior to the end of WWII (by SA and Winchester). There are still options for SA rifles and you can still get Win receivers and barreled receivers. I've gotten four M1's through the CMP and only one of them is a post-war rifle. Even if none of mine actually saw combat, I am well reminded of the war effort days when over 2,000 M1's were built each day.

The Swiss and Swede rifles are indeed nice, but they didn't play a roll in WWII.

Ty

[cookiemonster]

Cosmoline has a point about the Finn M-39's...I have a nice Sako M-39 with nice, visible cartouche on the stock...shoots wonderfully....has a good crown and very good rifling....paid 140 at a Houston gunshow for it. :) And it will NOT be sporterized...in respect to Simo Haya. :)

Czech Brno mausers are a nice item to grab, as well...


I have been warned about those Cruffler license...do not count on having any spare cash! :) lol

Darrell

[Cosmoline]

Even the Garands built during WWII rarely saw combat. Only a small percentage of US forces ever fought on the front line at rifle distance, whereas a large chunk of Finland's population fought nose-to-nose engagements with the Ruskies. The front line was their back yard, literally. To find any rifles in US history with a similar amount of front-line use you'd need to collect CSA firearms.

[RaggedClaws]

...Yugo SKS, Albanian SKS, Russian SKS...

Actually, only the Russian M44 SKS saw any WWII service, and that was in very small quantities for a very short time. All of the other nation's SKS' were most certainly post-war.

[secluded]

Quote:
...Yugo SKS, Albanian SKS, Russian SKS...

Actually, only the Russian M44 SKS saw any WWII service, and that was in very small quantities for a very short time. All of the other nation's SKS' were most certainly post-war.

Yea, I know. I was just trying to illustrate how the mil-surp "bug" seems to spread to other C&R rifles. Once bit by the bug it hard for many (myself included) to stick to one "type" of collecting it seems. :)

[jondwright]

Not to dis the US, but frankly if you're on a budget it pays big time to focus on the overseas C&R rifles and limit your US collection to an old CMP Garand.

I think this is very sound advice Cosmoline. I plan to handpick a rack grade M1 from the CMP, maybe a service grade. I won't spend $900.

[Steve in PA]

I don't know what the chances are that a current CMP M1 saw "combat" in WWII, but the chances are extremely good that most of them saw duty in the Korean war. When you think of the M1, you think of WWII, thats enough for me.

My current collection;
M1 Garand
1903A3
MN 91/30
German Mauser K98
Enfield No 4 Mk 1
Swiss K31

[jefnvk]

The SKS is an M45, and wasn't adopted until '46. Don;t think any were in WWII.

Check here for more info on the Rifes: http://www.surplusrifle.com/

As for the rifle seeing combat, I don't really care if mine did. There is a page out there somewhere that lets you look up the SN of your M1, to see if there is a record of it. I did, and while mine specifically was not listed, many in that SN range went to a Pennsylvania unit. That group wound up in Europe, and IIRC was at the Hurtgen forest. I have no idea if mine was there, but I like to think so. Not a big deal either way, though, it is a good rifle and most importantly mine.

EDIT: If you want one that seen combat, how about a Greek return? They almost certainly have been used.

[jondwright]

I agree Steve, that's why I'm not going to break the bank. It's gotta be a decent shot too.

[cracked butt]

About the cheapest way to buy a rifle that probably saw service in WWII is a 91/30 Mosin Nagant. More were made at Ishevsk in 1942 than any other year, I wonder why? ;)

[Big Man]

I agree with about everything thats been suggested here. Good advice. The only thing I will add is...before you invest in a Carcano...look at the prices for ammo. I have friends that have them...the ammo is expensive. Also the ammo for the Swiss isnt cheap either. The best I've found is $22 for 60 rounds. Unless you roll your own...it is something to consider.
I also recommend Military Gun Supply in DFW texas. I have bought 2 rifles from them. The weapons were fantastic and the prices couldnt be beat.
There is also a pretty good For Sale board at Surplusrifle.com. The guys over there seem to be pretty trustworthy. I always watch their sale board.

[Trebor]

JonDWright,

I highly reccomend a U.S. Service Grade CMP M-1 over a Rack Grade M-1. The bottom of the barrel Service Grades will be in better shape then the nicest Rack Grades. If you want a shooter, you'll be much better off with the better barrel on the Service Grade. The only good reason to get a Rack Grade is if you are going to rebarrel it in .308 or put a new barrel on it to make a match rifle. They are very cost effective for that. Other than that, the U.S. Service Grade is a much better "bang for the buck."

Trust me, you'll forget about the small amount of money you saved on a Rack Grade in a year as you get frustrated with the rifle's accuracy. You'll be much happier with a Service Grade as a shooter and representive piece.

[jobu07]

Oh, we forgot about the Johnson. I forget it's nomenclature. But it was like a 1940's adoption, used by the marine corp or something to that avail. Clip feeds from the side reminiscent of a sten. Neat looking gun, heavy too. I know a guy who had one blow up in his face when the quick detach barrel detached while firing... Interesting rifle. Although I don't think they saw much service.

[jondwright]

Terbor, does this hold true if I actually go to the CMP? I was thinking that while I wouldn't want to take my chances with a mail order, couldn't a cherry pick a decent one? I really just want to have one, and I'm not even a great shooter so will a bad rifle make me even worse, (=

[secluded]

Terbor, does this hold true if I actually go to the CMP? I was thinking that while I wouldn't want to take my chances with a mail order, couldn't a cherry pick a decent one? I really just want to have one, and I'm not even a great shooter so will a bad rifle make me even worse, (=

I just recently (Feb 5th) picked up my first Garand. I went to the North Store as it's about a hour from my house. I had every intention of getting a rack grade. I ended up getting a Service Grade and don't regret it one bit. If your in the market for a nice gun and nice shooter that's the route to take. Also the folks at the CMP were super nice. I explained to the guys that it's my first Garand and that I wanted a good shooter. I didn't have a preference for manufacturer (I think most are Springfield now anyways, at least at the North Store when I was there). The guys went through most of the rifles on the racks and finally picked the one with the best muzzle and throat erosion readings, the one I got had a reading of 1 and ~1.5 respectively. The wood was in great shape, unlike the majority of the rack grade rifles I saw.
I had a chance to shoot it about 2 weeks ago, what a fun gun!!! I was getting about 3-4" eight shot groups at 100 yards. I'm sure it'll shoot better though once I get familar with the peep style sights and "learn" the gun a little more. IMO the CMP is the only way to go for a Garand.
Make sure you have your paperwork requirements in order BEFORE you show up at the North Store though. You can sign up for the Ohio Rifle and Pistol Association at the CMP which is an "affliated club" if you need to. ($21.00/year)

BTW - Here's my Service Grade, 6 digit Springfield (Oct 1942) after I cleaned it up.
http://members.cox.net/cruffler/images/garandfinal2.jpg

[jondwright]

That is a gorgeous rifle secluded. The ones I was messing around with Saturday must have been rack grades...

How much did you spend? 500-550?

[secluded]

$500.00

Here's a shot the day I picked it up at the North Store:

http://members.cox.net/cruffler/images/garand2.jpg

[jondwright]

You sure did some good to it, but it doesn't look bad in that picture either. The guys I was with had put a lot of time in their too, and it didn't look that good. Like I'm saying, probably rack grades. It looks like I'm going to have to hold off because I only have $300 or so to spend. I don't want to regret the purchase...

[secluded]

I thought it looked pretty good the day I got it as well. But seeing as how I can never seem to leave any of my guns be I decided to clean up the stock :D
I didn't do anything to the metal work but the stock showed some decent grain patterns under the dirt and oils that were on it. It is a replacement stock (not stamped with anything other than the "P" on it) I figured I wasn't modifying anything of historic significance.

[Trebor]

Terbor, does this hold true if I actually go to the CMP? I was thinking that while I wouldn't want to take my chances with a mail order, couldn't a cherry pick a decent one? I really just want to have one, and I'm not even a great shooter so will a bad rifle make me even worse, (=

Yes, the difference between a Service Grade and a Rack Grade makes a difference. Take a look at the CMP descriptions and specifications for the Rack Grade and Service Grade rifles. The nicest Rack Grade rifles still won't have as good of a barrel (as measured by TE) or muzzle as the worst Service Grade. And, if you cherry pick at the store itself, you can usually find some really nice Service Grades that will blow away the Rack Grades.

The fact that you aren't a very good shooter means you want the best rifle, within reason, you can get. A poor shooter with a poor rifle might not be able to stay on the paper when you combine the shooter error with the error induced by the rifle. With a better rifle, you have less error introduced by the rifle and only have to overcome your own shortcomings. And, when your skills improve, you'll want a better rifle.

It's your money. Do what you think best.

[MrMurphy]

The Brits/Canadians/Aussies used the SMLE (No.1 MKIII) right alongside the No.4 Mk1, some preferred it. The Aussies used the SMLE exclusively through both World Wars and kept making them till at least 1945. So an SMLE would be fine for your WW2 collection if you couldn't find a No.4.


The M1 carbine was the most-produced US weapon and armed half the Army, just not as many of the infantry as it was a support weapon. So.......basic collection would look like this:

US: M1 Garand, M1 carbine eventually (Kahr/Auto Ordnance makes new ones now)
Britain: No.4 Mk1 or No.1 MkIII/SMLE
Germany: Mauser 98k, a Yugo M48 is essentially the same thing.
Italy: Mannlicher-Carcano 6.5 or 7.7 carbine.
Japan: Arisaka Type 38 (6.5mm) or Type 99 (7.7mm) however finding one not sporterized can be hard.....my brother has a bring-back 99 from the Korean War that was sporterized by the capturer (P-51 pilot that mowed down an infantry column, then landed and picked up souvenirs right on the road before taking off early in the war).

[jondwright]

Thanks Trebor, you answered the question I may not have done a good job of asking. A good rifle will make me a slightly better shooter...as opposed to the rifle not mattering if you aren't a good shooter. I'm gonna hold off..l hear there is a 4 year supply, so I don't suppose the rifle I get in 3 months will be any different than the one I could get next week.

[ReadyontheRight]

www.odcmp.com
www.aimsurplus.com
www.battlerifles.com

Enjoy! Great collection idea!

Get thee to CMP ASAP! Check out the $300 greek Garands, but be ready to spend $500 on a Service Grade - it's probably a better deal unless you get lucky.

[jefnvk]

Terbor, does this hold true if I actually go to the CMP? I was thinking that while I wouldn't want to take my chances with a mail order, couldn't a cherry pick a decent one?

I'm gonna disagree. Dig through them all. I found a rack with a MW of 1.5 and a TE of 3. I found a service with a MW well over what would gauge on their gauges. The grading seemed more of a reccomendation to me than a hard set rule. I saved $100 by digging through.

Also, as guns are bought, they bring out new ones. It pays to stay a while. Or, if you are looking for a specific one, ask, and if they have the time, they'll go look in the back.

EDIT: CMP North Store lists their Greeks as sold out http://www.odcmp.com/Store.htm

[Sunray]

Canadians did not use the No. 1 Mk III in combat during W.W. II. No.4 Mk I's and Mk I*'s. The Zombies carried No.1's though. Our guys used No. 4's until 1957 when the C1's were issued. The Aussies, however, did not switch to the No. 4. They did update the No. 1 Mk. III's they built. In any case, do not shoot ANY Lee-Enfield without checking the headspace first. Thousands have been assembled out of parts bins with no QC.
"...reminiscent of a sten..." The Johnson had a rotary mag that was filled from the side, but it looks nothing like a STEN mag. It's not a box at all. Johnson's in decent shape are few and far between and are mucho expensive when you do see one. Not many of 'em were made to begin with either.