[brodie]

i turned 21 in november, and i still don't have a gun! actually, i still don't have my FOID card either.... heh

in all actuality, i won't be getting a gun in the real near future, but i want to know what i'm getting ahead of time, so i can try out some suggestions before i buy.

anyway, i want a nice pistol. mostly for going to the range, but also to keep in my home for protection once i move out (university housing = no guns). for reference, i have a light frame (6'0", 150 lbs), and fairly small hands.

i'm probably looking at a 9mm, but some people "in the know" at another forum (who pointed me here), have suggested .22's and possibly .40's and .45's besides 9mm's.

the guns most suggested to me are:
H&K USP9
Sig P228
Sig P229
any Makarov

so... thoughts, questions?

i'd like to keep my first initial purchase under $500 or $600, if at all possible, but i guess i'd be willing to go as high as $800. i understand that i don't want to skimp on price for a gun... a cheap gun (quality-wise) is gonna be Bad News™

suggestions?

[who me]

Most people will probaly tell you to get a revolver for your first gun, but i got a Ruger P89 9mm for my first pistol. It's a very nice shooter. The 9mm is cheaper to shoot than some other calibers and should be adequate for self defense. I did end up buying a SP101 .357 mag and love it also. So it's all depends on what you feel comfortable with.

[V-fib]

Welcome brodie.


Who me just beat me to the punch!

A .22 is nice for your first pistol or revolver easy to learn to shoot and cheap to shoot too.

However since you wanted something for home defense may I too suggest a Ruger Sp101 .357 3". You can shoot .38's and 38'+P ammo in a .357. And, it's built very tough and under $500 Taurus is coming out with a 9mm revolver this year you might want to hold back on that for awile to see how they perform.

Another suggestion get a 12ga pump for HD and a .22lr for target and plinking.

Good luck!

[Handy]

I would say for calibers, .22 revolver or auto, or .38/.357 revolver, or 9mm in an auto. Unless you are a policeman, there is really no need to throw away money on .40 or .45 ammo. They don't shoot any straighter and aren't even hugely better for defense. They do recoil more and cost twice as much:what:

Handguns:

For a .22 it's wide open. Most would agree that you can't go wrong with a Ruger MKII auto. But there are a ton of handguns that will shoot .22 nicely.

Revolvers: Take a look at a Ruger GP100 (for a double action) or a cowboy style Blackhawk. Both are tough, cheap and accurate. Also, consider a used S&W revolver-lightly used police guns are cheap.

Autos. 9mm will do it all. Ruger 89/93/94 or 95 models, CZ75BD or Taurus 92 pistols are all proven and cost around $300. Kahr also makes a lower priced pistol called the E9 which is good for smaller hands and budgets. If you want cheaper, the FEG copies of the Browning Hi-Power are closer to $200 and use Browning mags. Police turn in S&W autos may also be a cheaper attractive option.

Whatever you buy, make sure the gun has a decent rep. Don't get a tiny gun- keep the barrel length in the neighborhood of 4" or greater so you can build you accuracy skills.

The main thing I'd recommend is not trying to buy "the ultimate gun". There is no such thing and that $500 Glock may become a $400 trade in when you figure out what you really like. So if you don't know for sure now, keep it basic and save you money for bullets.

[Croyance]

A .22 LR is a good place to start - it doesn't cost much, and what you save in ammo expenses will pay for the gun. A brick of 500 .22LR's can be had for less than $10. Cheap ammo equals more practice equals more proficiency. Plus you reduce your chances of getting a flinch.
My favorite .22 LR is a Browning Buckmark, but Rugers also have a good reputation. Check out the Walther P22 and Beretta Neo. The Beretta 87 Target is interesting also, but a bit excessive for your current needs.
I believe in getting a .22 LR with the same grip angle as your main gun, to keep a similar aiming point.
There are many good choises of semi-auto and revolvers out there. With the bigger names, it is really hard to go wrong. I can only recommend that you rent as many different guns as you can and try them. The more you try, the more you will understand what works for you.
If your hands are small, I like the Browning HiPower. With thin grips installed it will fit most hands.

[Croyance]

Oh, and of course, welcome to THR.
Post what you are leaning toward and people will share there experiences. More importantly they will try to steer you clear of any junk out there.

[Ian11]

brodie,

If you are getting a gun for self defense (whatever you choose) I highly recommend you get basic safety/training and lots of practice. Figure that into your costs. I'm not talking over-confidence but confidence in knowing what you're capable of is worth a lot more than paying a premium for a fancy gun. Sorry to get into lecture mode but a defense gun is not a fire extinguisher. You should be mentally ready to take another's life in order to save your own or someone you love. If you're not get a non-lethal weapon instead. People who suggest a revolver on the basis its easier to neglect is taking the wrong attitude (IMHO). But revolvers are a great choice because they are "fool-proof" and easy to manipulate.

Whatever you choose you should get a gun that appeals to you so in turn you'll want to learn everything about it and want to shoot it often (theoretically). If a Beretta INOX or H&K USP looks cool to you, get it. But be intimate with it the way a Marine is with his rifle. Another important thing to consider is the way the gun FITS YOUR HAND. Make sure you can reach and pull the DA trigger of the revolver or auto comfortably. Its very important. Also, learn all the laws in your state about self defense with a gun and about being a responsible gun owner. Again, these training classes should fill you in.

If a .357 Mag revolver appeals to you its a fine choice. I'd go with S&W or Ruger. You can shoot .38 or .357 and the .38 +P makes a fine defense round if the .357 blast and noise is too much. (Be honest with yourself about your abilities.)

As for autos I'd go with a DA/SA 9mm auto. Active safeties (like the ones on Beretta's) aren't that important. To me its one more thing that could complicate things than anything else. Basic gun safety should become 2nd Nature because the same rules apply whether the safety is "on" or not. I feel safeties can only lull you into a false sense of safety. (That is why I have no problems with the Glock trigger system)

And whoever suggested SIG pistols is a wise person. :D It is far and away my favorite DA/SA pistol of all makes I owned or tried. I'd suggest the P226 because full size pistols are more effective than compacts for most people and you don't intend to CCW it anyways. But if you ever need to the P226 isn't that difficult with the right holster and belt. A short trigger for people with smaller hands is available from SIG. Definately try a .40, .357, or .45 before you buy. It'd be bad if you get a .40 and realize you're recoil sensitive. Again, be honest with yourself and your abilities. I rely on a Glock .40 or a .45 for home defense but sometimes I wonder if I'd be better served with the faster more accurate shots of my SIG P226 9mm.

Good Luck and Shoot Safe.

Ian

[mikea]

i agree with the folks who posted above...the 22 is great for practice and will get you used to shooting a pistol the correct way..as for a personal defense pistol...may i suggest the springfield armory xd9, (extreme duty)...very good grip angle (for natural pointing), very accurate, reliable...also has springfields lifetime warrenty, and some safety features that are not present on all guns...
below is a link to a talk forum about this gun...

www.hs2000talk.com

i also own a ruger sp101 and find it a very accurate and reliable gun...both can be had for around $400 depending on the part of the country you live in...

good luck and keep us posted.

mike

http://www.z100fm.net/flag-animated.gif

[Kahr carrier]

Ruger Gp100 or 686 S&W Revolver in 357 Magnum, Or a good 22 pistol like a Ruger Mark-2.:)

[ruger357]

Go with a .357 revolver.

[smooth operator]

357 REVOLVER

[10-Ring]

I usually recommend a 22lr as a first gun. Inexpensive cost of admission and inexpensive to shoot. As a new shooter, trigger time is what you need to develop goot shooting skills & habits. After that too, you will develop tastes in what you like & don't like in firearms and will be more informed.
If you want something bigger as a first gun, I'd recommend a S&W 66. Simple, accurate & reliable. If you want a semi auto, my first recommendations usually go to the USPs, but it is not normally my first suggestion as a first handgun.

[Boiler_G]

brodie,

check your college pistol & rifle club! that is what i did. i could pay the cheap club dues, shoot .22 all day for $1.25 a box/50rds. I then bought a Colt 1991A1 for myself. I love my Colt, but the .45 ACP is an expensive round. I knew i would end up with a 1911, so that is why i bought it first. After shooting a buddies CZ 75 PCR in 9mm, I kind of had some second thoughts. I could shoot faster follow up shots (less recoil). So I would suggest something in 9mm for cheap cost of ammo and very managible recoil. Go with a CZ 75 SA or BHP to keep operation simple (single action only). The CZ is a very affordable gun and shoots well. I personally think they are kind of ugly, but from my experience (and others, many others you will read here) it is a good gun. Guns are to shoot anyway, not to look pretty (unless you are a pimp or something). You can also get a Cadet .22 conversion for CZ, so then you could practice .22 with it. In fact, that is my recomendation. Main point is to shoot before you buy! If you have a pistol club at your school, most of the guys on the club are regulars and will have several guns each. Go to a range with them sometime and see what you like. Also, read this forum and the TFL archives as much as possible

just some advice from a fellow poor college student

[cratz2]

Welcome. It's good to see folks asking these questions instead of just rushing out to get whatever strikes your fancy at first even though all on your list look like good candidates to me.

I think if I were in your shoes (size 11s? :p ) and had a $500-ish budget and no guns at all, I'd look into getting a 22 pistol (maybe a Ruger), a Makarov a case of ammo and maybe taking a training class. The 22 will provide nearly infinite practice, the Makarov will allow you to protect yourself with a reliable, effective weapon and the class will help you cover all the bases well.

There will always be time to get a SIG or a Glock or Kahr or whatever else you might be intrested in. Plus, you already will have A gun and you can take all the time you need to handle bunches of other guns to see exactly what it is that you want.

[Logistar]

Yup, get a .22 and some training. After you learn to shoot correctly AND you see what you like/don't like about the features of your .22, I think you would be better able to make a good choice for a more powerful defense weapon.

(Before anyone laughs at a .22 for self-defense, just remember that I (or anyone else) can (ACCURATELY) unload an entire Ruger Mag in about the same time I could get 2 or 3 shots off with a "Powerful" handgun. - Maybe not the same but being hit with 10 .22s isn't anything to laugh about!)

- Besides, EVERYONE should have a .22! ;)

Logistar

[brodie]

well, first let me say that i don't want an automatic. i definitely want a semi.

second, i seem to be hearing a lot that i should get a .22

i've shot a .22 before, and i just thought it felt kind of "weak" ... but if that will help me get good firing habits, then i guess a .22 it is.

oh, and i wouldn't even *think* of owning a gun without taking training (both shooting and safety). that would just be idiotic.

thanks for all the great advice

[243_shooter]

I've been into rifles for a long time.. Decided to get my pistol permit (still waiting, lol).. couldn't wait to get my hands on the latest greatest whiz bang pocket rocket..

_until_ my buddy let me blow about 200rds through his Ruger single six..

I learned 2 things.. 1) I'm much better with a rifle, and need practice with a pistol 2) how much fun a sa revolver can be

I've been searching the local gun stores high and low since then looking for a nice single six that still has the matching 22mag cylinder.

I figure a good .22 practice gun will let me put LOTS of ammo downrange, cheap (and hopefully I'll improve).. and the .22 mag cylinder will give the gun some usefullness during hunting season.

Leo

[notbubba]

You listed some great guns with your opening post.
You may as well get the best as your first gun so get a SIG 229.

Get a .22 later, they are fun to shoot.
But, I wouldn't want one as my only gun.

[Ian11]

brodie,

For some reason all semi-automatic pistols are also called an "auto or automatic pistol". I guess its because full auto (or select fire) pistols like the Beretta 93R or Glock 18 are so rare (and in terms of real world use) people don't bother to make the distinction. With rifles, carbines, and even shotguns they are distinguished by the term automatic and semi-automatic.

[Blackhawk]

Welcome to THR, brodie! :D

If you live where you can go to private land and plink, a used .22 auto like a Ruger MkII or Browning Buckmark will be the most and cheapest fun you can have shooting, and you won't need super industrial strength hearing protection like you will with almost any center fire cartridge. Best thing is that you will have to learn good gun handling habits to hit what you want, and those habits will never leave you.

When you're confident and competent with the .22, nearly any handgun will be easy to handle and shoot accurately.

BTW, you won't lose money when you sell your .22 either! :D

[Cal4D4]

One of the long gone sages of the shooting world - Col. Charles Askins - recommended the .22 (semi)auto as the best first pistol. Unlike a revolver, your grip is more fixed and you shoot more rounds. This leaves you with more time to concentrate on sight picture and trigger pull - the biggest bugaboo in pistol shooting. Save the big caliber and compact "carrying" pieces for next time. Pistol proficiency is 10's of thousands of rounds downrange from where you are at. This is not a bad thing, shooting is what it's all about. The .22 pistols and ammo are fairly cheap and money is not all that common. Larger calibers may cause you to develop a flinch that you will have to shoot out with a .22 anyway. Think of the .22 as a pellet pistol on steroids. The choice of expert assassins. Find one good pistolero that doesn't have at least one .22 in the safe. Dozens of guns later, I purchased my first .22 auto (Ruger P4, $209 on sale) around last December. It is my always gun to the range now, purchased 5 cheap mags and shoot at least 150 rounds a trip (about $3). It really helps.

[Ala Dan]

Greeting's brodie,

While I can't argue with any of the weapon's on your
"short list"; I would like to add one more:

.45 caliber SIG-P220A

An out-standing firearm in every respect. It's the weapon
that launched SIG-Sauer into glory! Highly respected by
most world class shooter's, for its reliability and accuracy. Also, it offers a weapon with craftsmanship
at its finest. I would not be without one, myself!

Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member

[SteveS]

Some really good suggestions. I agree that a .22 is a great choice, but I think that a 9mm is also a great choice. Besides, if you are going to spend lots of money (especially on a student's budget), you should get what you really want. 9mm is a good choice because of cost (you can find deals on the net for less that $5 for a box of 50). There are some good +P self defense loads, too.

My first pistol was a 9mm, but I had been shooting rifle for years and recoil was not a concern. You are bigger that I am, so I don't think that recoil will be at all bad for you.

I have a 228 and a 229 and they are excellent guns. Very reliable, easy to maintain, and accurate. I have a USP in .45, so I can't say exactly what the 9mm is like, but HK makes a very nice gun. I have never shot a Mak, so I couldn't say whether that would be a good choice.

Are there any places that rent guns where you live? It is nice being able to see what feels good and what fits you best.

Good luck,
Steve

[spacemanspiff]

no no no! no! nothing less than the desert eagle .50ae, or the s&w .500 magnum. what do you want? to learn good shooting habits from the get-go?? shootings more fun when you have to overcome flinching.


j/k
nothing greater than a .22lr, wish i had that piece of advice before i got the 9mm as a first gun.

[Baron Holbach]

For smaller hands, don't overlook the Sig P239 in 9mm.

A quality small or medium frame double-action .357 magnum revolver with no longer than a 4-inch barrel would be a good first gun. Start out by shooting .38 special factory loads and when your accuracy improves, try shooting .38 special +P.

[yzguy]

for about $200-$250 you can get a Reminton 870 or Mossberg for the house, then spend $200-$400 (depending on 44/25, target model, Govt model, blued or SS ) on a Ruger .22 (lots of ruger info here (http://www.1bad69.com/ruger/index.htm) and hear (http://www.network54.com/Hide/Forum/52578?it=0)) and you will have the best of both worlds.. that is unless you want a carry gun also, in that case I would reccomend 9mm... (I had to have all three!! :) )

[Quartus]

If you are getting a gun for self defense (whatever you choose) I highly recommend you get basic safety/training and lots of practice. Figure that into your costs. I'm not talking over-confidence but confidence in knowing what you're capable of is worth a lot more than paying a premium for a fancy gun. Sorry to get into lecture mode but a defense gun is not a fire extinguisher. You should be mentally ready to take another's life in order to save your own or someone you love. If you're not get a non-lethal weapon instead.


I'll second that. And get some REAL training if you can - not just your local NRA course. (But that's a good place to start - basic safety, etc.)

I don't know which of the top gun schools offer beginner courses, but John Farnam has a roving course that may happen to come near you. It's a bargain. Less than $200 last I checked.

I'd check the schedule (http://www.defense-training.com/sched/schedform.html) for you and suggest a location, but I'm pretty sure he doesn't teach any courses near your NIC. ;)

[Mizzoutiger]

If you're willing to spend up to 800 smackers on your first gun, why skimp?

As soon as I turned 21 I went out to the sheriff's office to get a permit to buy. I had an $800 kimber stainless target 1911 that same week. Never looked back. It is still the head piece in my collection... really small collection (I just turned 21 this past January).

Get something you'll have fun shooting and have fun learning with. I'd say you can't go wrong with a gun that just screams "badass" to you.

Good luck! Happy shooting!

[The Silver Bullet 1719]

I'd recommend the CZ-75B/BD/SA with the Kadet conversion kit. I personally wouldn't want just a .22 to begin with, and with the CZ you get the best of both worlds. If you don't want a semi, check out the Ruger line of revolvers or a good used S&W 10 .38 or 66 .357.

[goon]

I would get a Semi-auto, probably a .22.
.22 is cheap to shoot, and I like autos better than revolvers.
I would stay away from the S&W ones though. I knew a guy that bought one for his first pistol, and he spent much of hit time clearing jams. That is not what I call recreation.

I am think that either a Ruger or a Browning buck mark would rock. I am currently tapped out, but the browning is on my list.

If you want a full size gun, get a CZ. Anywhere you post about a CZ, you will hear their praises.
They go for about $350 for a new 75BD, and mine is great.
I think that the Kadet is a neat idea, but for the amount you have to spend, you could have two guns and 1K of ammo for each if you go .22/9mm.
Two are better than one.

[Quartus]

I 've shot a .22 before, and i just thought it felt kind of "weak" ... but if that will help me get good firing habits, then i guess a .22 it is.

Remember, a hit with a .22 is much more effective than a miss with a .44 mag.


Brodie, I'm going to upset a few folks here with this:


You can almost tell on this thread who are the good and experienced shooters from those who are not.


The first group is recommending the .22. The others are not.


It's that simple. A .22 will teach you shooting. A bigger gun will teach you bad habits. IF you are one of the very rare ones who can tolerate recoil from the get go, fine. But the vast majority of shooters will learn bad habits by starting with anything bigger.

Two things about bad habits:

[list=1]
They're a lot easier to learn than to unlearn.

Those that have them usually don't know they have them. (Especially with bad shooting habits.)
[/list=1]


The worst piece of advice on this thread?


I'd say you can't go wrong with a gun that just screams "badass" to you.


:rolleyes:

[SteveS]

Quartus,
While not upset, I must respectfully disagree with some of what you said. I do not consider myself an expert, but I would definately say I am experienced. I think Brodie could be well served with starting out with a .22, but I do not believe he has to. I am aware of plenty of shooters with good habits that have never owned a .22, and I also know plenty of shooters that started out with a .22 and were too lazy to learn proper techniques.

No matter what he ends up buying, I hope he gets training and takes the time to practice.

[Austin]

Brodie: I was in your shoes a year ago, so my experience might be relevant for you. I would suggest a used full or midsized 9 mm in a reputable name: Beretta, Sig, H&K. It should be in excellent condition when you buy it. If you're not familiar enough with weapon condition bring someone who is or do some research online. Basically the finish should be even, minimal scratches, smooth moving parts, and a shiny, unmarked (except for the rifling) bore. If you can shoot it first, even better. If you were going to buy 2 guns I would say one of them should be a 22, just for the amount of practice you can get for the money. The 9mm, however, is about the next cheapest gun you can shoot, and in my opinion is more adequate for self defense.

I ended up buying a Beretta 92fs compact w/hi cap out of the paper for $400. I chose a Beretta only because I knew I'd be using a similar weapon in a police academy. When I became proficient with the gun, I decided that the compact version wasn't for me. Not the right size or caliber for a duty weapon, and the barrel length hindered target shooting. I sailed through the firearms portion thanks to my familiarity, and chose to sell the gun. The best part? I didn't lose a dime, sold it for $400. That won't happen if you buy new and later decide its not what you want. You can even use the money you save to pick up a second gun like I did: S&W .38 for $200 :D

[Quartus]

Steve, I don't disagree with you. There are certainly people who can start bigger and do well. But they are a minority. And what worked for YOU (whomever you are) is not what will work for EVERYONE. So to recommend a course of action based on what worked for YOU is a mistake. Experience shows that MOST people willl do better starting with a gun that has little or no recoil and muzzle blast.


IF Brodie happens to be on the recoil insensitive end of the scale, but starts with a .22, the worst that happens is that it takes a little longer and costs a little more to get to the bigger calibers.


IF Brodie happens to be on the recoil hypersensitive end of the scale, the worst that happens is that he says forget shooting completely! OR, more likely, spends his shooting years with a flinch.


Since none of us can know beforehand (including Brodie), that's a lousy gamble, and completely unnecessary. The cost of going the safe route, and being wrong, is minor. The cost of taking the gamble, and being wrong, is major.

That's a no-brainer to me.


(BTW, my first handgun was a .45 auto, and I like to shoot big bore. I have fired 100 rounds of hot .308 through a handgun in just a couple of hours and enjoyed all of it. I have fired hot loaded .45-70 from a TC Contender and enjoyed it. The first time I fired a .454 Casull the only results were a shattered target and a reeeeely big grin on my face. But that's me. That's not everyone.)

[rebbryan]

i'm a college student too, 1 year away from 21. i've already started saving up for a HK USP. and since there's a waiting period for handguns i'm buying me the gun and some jim bean on my next birthday :evil:

[SteveS]

Quartus, I only used my own personal experience because that is really the only thing I have to go on. I have introduced several people to handguns and do not consider myself an expert intructor, by any means.

Based upon my own personal experience, I feel that buying something you do not want want, based on the advice of others, is not a good idea either. That doesn't mean that you shouldn't carefully consider the advice of people that have been there, but if he still feels he doesn't want a .22, he shouldn't get one.

I still think he should find a range that rents guns and shoot couple hundred rounds through whatever he is considering. He should also save up some money for compotent instruction. If it not possible to "try before you buy," I agree that some serious consideration should be give to a .22.

Steve