[Wildalaska]

Anybody wanna join me in a group vomit..or even better...BOYCOTT em...

Say bye bye to Bayer, Braun, BMW, Mercedes, Chryselr (sorry US Auto workers, its for the good of our nation)...

Break off diplomatic relations too..

One of my great Uncles took one in the leg at the Kasserine Pass, another crossed Europe from Normandy to the Ardennes when he was wounded, and I have relatives crying out from the ravines of Babi Yar...

And now this...from the NY Times

Young Germans Ask: Thanks for What?
By NINA BERNSTEIN


ERLIN — A few blocks east of the old Checkpoint Charlie, stands a high school once named after Theodor Winter, a German anti-fascist who spent World War II in the Soviet Union.

The school, now renamed for Charles Darwin, survives between glittering new shops and the dour high-rise apartment buildings that still line a boulevard of broken Communist dreams.

Many Americans might think this terrain should be the epicenter of German gratitude to the United States, for its role in getting rid of Nazis and Communists. But the view is quite different at Charles Darwin High School, where 12th-grade students of English, from formerly East German families, were discussing world events in recent days.

Philip, 18, who wants to be a doctor, called for a statute of limitations on gratitude. "I think Germany has been grateful for more than 50 years," he said. "I think after 50 years one can start being independent."

And in an outburst directed at an American visitor, another student, Susie, also 18, opened the floodgates of resentment. "The idea that we have to be grateful to the Americans — why?" she asked. "We have financed the gulf war. Why should we be grateful? Thirty thousand refugees have been bombed out in Dresden, so we have to be grateful? Why?"

It wasn't hard to figure out where she got her information. A recent best seller, "The Fire," by the historian Jörg Friedrich, questions carpet bombings that killed hundreds of thousands of German civilians late in World War II. And documentaries shown almost nightly on German television in recent months are part of a lengthy national re-examination of the Allied air war.

Though the documentaries carefully placed the Allied bombings in the context of the Holocaust, the images of Dresden and many other firebombed cities, with smoking ruins and children's corpses, have heightened the emotional pitch of German opposition to a war in Iraq. Most nights, the film clips from World War II are only a click away from news reports about American impatience to bomb Baghdad.

Gabriele Dietze, a professor at the Free University's John F. Kennedy Institute of American Studies, likened the effect on the young to "a shortcut in the brain." The ritual evocation of America's role in World War II, instead of instilling gratitude, may reinforce a stereotype of a trigger-happy United States, she said.

In contrast, a fondly comic view of East Germany is now prevalent in popular culture. The latest box office hit is "Goodbye, Lenin," a bittersweet comedy about a loyal son trying to recreate an East German life for his dying mother, as her society crumbles under a flood of western goods and Deutsche marks.

In the east, teenagers' cynicism is fueled by their parents' disappointment with reunification. In 1990, many economists said the east would be as prosperous as the west within a few years. More than 12 years later, unemployment in the east is still running at 20 percent, double that in the west.

"In my opinion, capitalism didn't win," said Andreas Schutt, 23, a part-time computer programmer, whose 50-year-old father was just laid off. "In my opinion, Communism lost. Now capitalism is failing, too."

In a recent poll, 61 percent of Germans under 30 said President Bush was more dangerous than Saddam Hussein, or equally dangerous. In contrast, only 48 percent of Germans 60 and older had those views.

Yet when asked if they had more positive or more negative associations with "the American way of life," young Germans were two to three times more likely to be positive than Germans over 45, according to the poll, conducted by the Forsa polling institute.

"There is a total disconnect," said Gary Smith, president of the American Academy in Berlin. "They wear jeans and listen to Eminem, but this is not relevant to the America that these students are afraid of. In the end it comes down to America's power in the world."

Zitty, a popular Berlin weekly, recently ran an article titled "Farewell to America?" In the antiwar protests here, the article found evidence of a "new European spirit" impatient with worn-out American reproaches of ingratitude.

"To tell you the truth I've never seen so much anti-Americanism in my life, not in the Vietnam War, never," said the novelist Peter Schneider, 62. "Since Bush is on the stage, he has alienated a whole generation. It's anti-Bushism first, and then it gets mixed up with anti-Americanism."

At least one older German was appalled. "All of Europe owes the U.S. its liberation," Wolf Biermann, a songwriter and poet, wrote in an acerbic essay about the recent antiwar marchers in Der Spiegel, a news magazine. "Many of those who want peace at any price evidently don't want to acknowledge that in an indirect way we owe our release from the Soviet People's Jail of the G.D.R. to nobody so much as to those weapon-crazy Americans."

Mr. Biermann has a special perspective. His father died at Auschwitz, and he was a dissident in the Communist German Democratic Republic, until he was stripped of citizenship in 1976.

Before the 1991 gulf war, some prominent Germans of his generation bucked antiwar sentiment by likening Saddam Hussein to Hitler. Now, for some young Germans, the comparison that Susie voiced in her English class works better. President Bush is "a second Hitler," she said, and the attack on the World Trade Center was the equivalent of the Reichstag fire.

However outrageous such a link seems to Americans — and the German justice minister was fired last fall for voicing a less virulent version — it evoked little disagreement from Susie's classmates. On the contrary, several chimed in with conspiracy-laced challenges to the official version of events. Of the Sept. 11 attacks, Franzeska, 18, said, "There are a lot of rumors that the Americans did it alone."

A boy named Marian added, "We can't imagine that the C.I.A. didn't know something about this." Then, he asked rhetorically, "Did you think that Americans were really on the moon?"

THIS was not an electronic chat room or the Arab street. These 18-year-olds were in the capital city of a democratic, reunified Germany — the very Germany that President Bush has cited as a model for what military intervention could achieve in a postwar Iraq.

In the old days, students here studied English from Communist textbooks, and built their image of America from a mixture of fear and longing, recalled Herbert Schkutek, the 53-year-old principal.

"It was either a dangerously unknown territory or an earthly paradise," he said. "Now they have more realistic views."

Their views, more outlandish than realistic, were bolstered with selective history. Next, the students were going on a school field trip to learn more about America. They were off to see "Bowling for Columbine," the biting documentary by Michael Moore about paranoid, gun-loving, dangerously manipulated Americans.


:cuss: :cuss: :cuss: :cuss: :cuss: :fire: :fire: :fire:

[Blackhawk]

They'll come around.

The French and Germans are always there when they need us.

[jmbg29]

Gee Wild,

What happened to "nice" and "polite"?

Why not just talk to those adorable little urchins in a soothing "Mr. Rodgers" type voice? You know, give 'em the old "won't you be my neighbor" schtick? Feh!:rolleyes:

:cuss: Euro-trash!

[seeker_two]

Yes we should have....

Not helping them rebuild after WWI was the main reason Hitler came to power & WWII happened at all. Read how Germany was savaged by the Treaty of Versailles (mostly influenced by the French). It made Reconstruction look like the Salvation Army...:what:

Everyone talks about how the US will help rebuild Iraq & Afghanistan. Those plans already exist. For the recovery, we have the Marshall Plan. For the government, we have the US Constitution. Follow directions carefully...:D

[Ed Brunner]

Anything negative that happens in Germany will likely be blamed on the USA and not on the Germans themselves. I don't know a whole lot about how they got to be the way they are, but like the lady said, fifty years is a long time. I don't expect their gratitude anyway. Bring the troops home.

[BobK]

We Americans will remember; "What goes around......comes
around" The anti-European back-lash is going to be sweet!
When they come to us,with open hands, our responce will be;


:neener:

[Tamara]

Newsflash: 18-year-olds are frequently ignorant and hyperbolic. Even in Germany. Liberals are silly. Even in Germany.

Wildalaska, 18, who wants to be a doctor, called for a statute of limitations on gratitude. "I think America has been grateful to France (off and on, at least) for more than 200 years," he said. "I think after 200 years one can start being independent. Lafayette, you cowardly cheese-eating surrender monkey!"

;)

[M67]

I'm European. I'm not really sure what it is that (some) Americans expect from me. It seems that you want me to respect you because of something your grandfather did?

Don't get me wrong, your help 60 years ago was and is appreciated. But that doesn't mean that I do not reserve the right to make up my own mind about current events.

Respect is something that has to be earned. You can live off old capital for only so long, there is very little interest to be had. And no matter how much good you or your grandfathers have done in the past, it doesn't mean that you can't be wrong in the future. Or that you and I can't disagree, whithout "right" or "wrong" necessarily being a part of it at all.

There are a lot of Americans out there who could not earn my respect in a million years. There are others who could. And have.

Those who choose The High Road generally fit in the latter category, regardless of nationality. :)

[El Tejon]

Yes, we should have, Wild. M67, we have saved Europe a bunch. We rescued them from an evil tyrant, saved them from the slavery of communism, staved off the ethnic butchery of their southern neighbors and now we smash the New Barbary pirates who would nuke Berlin as they would New York City.

As Tamara said, they interviewed fat, ignorant youngsters who know nothing but what their professors and television tell them. Why are we not surprised. You can find the same hate-filled, guilt-filled rhetoric at a Starbuck's on the northside of Chicago.

They have it easy. They feel guilty. Much easier to denounce America, who will let you say whatever you wish, than to roll up your sleeves and get to work.:)

[Joe Gunns]

As seeker two said, we did it for us, no just for them. Would have done the same for USSR and the countries it "liberated" as well, had Joe Stalin not objected, fearing peace and harmony would interfere with his plans for empire.

Those folks owe us naught, we owe them naught. When this go-round is over, and the dust settles, if US has pulled it off as planned, these folks will eventually be our "buddies" again. Self-interest always wins out. :) BUT, if it ends up being a cluster-mess, they will be walking all over the US as our economy falls some more and our ability and resolve is placed in doubt. THEY could end up Boss-of-the-World by default, as dithering Democrats gain control of US government. :mad:

[Ledbetter]

Nation states don't have feelings, they have interests.

It seems that certain European countries, having taken our assistance for years, are now announcing that they have a divergence of interests from ours.

They are willing to take actions detrimental to U.S. interests, like denouncing us as war-mongers for attempting to dethrone an(other) inhuman, murderous dictator.

They give out lenient prison sentences to those convicted of conspiring to murder the thousands of Americans who died 9-11-01.

They harbor terrorists; they sell weapons and "infrastructure" to those who have declared themselves our enemies.

Many of us take that to mean that those nations cannot expect our future interests to include assisting them, at all, period.

If that doesn't concern them, it is because they underestimate the power of America and overestimate their own.

Try to keep enough food on hand, Europe. Our exports might get mighty expensive.:what:

[bad_dad_brad]

Gee, but they (the Germans) make such good automobiles.

Who cares what the youth think, eventually they will grow up.

It's just trendy right now to be anti-American. Just look at our own youth movments in the late 60's and 70's.

Youth is wasted on the young.

[Soap]

Youth is wasted on the young.

Sad, but true in too many cases.

Gee, but they (the Germans) make such good automobiles.

No kidding! I'm already plotting my next German aquisition...bwahahahaha :evil:

[Nightfall]

It's okay. They will rant and rave over there, others will rant and rave over here. Allied (mainly US) soldiers will roll out, and liberate Iraq. When the time comes, we'll squash another oppressor, and the thankless, protected, sheltered people will call foul as they drink a latte from some nice little, safe coffee shop. These are the same people who have no idea what it is to be truly oppressed, and will be complaining about America until once again she is needed to right their personal wrongs.

And the cycle will repeat.

M67 - I for one most certainly expect nothing from you. Nobody owes me ANYTHING, least of all somebody who may or may not have been affected by actions my grandfather took during WWII. My problem isn't with Germans and such who don't fall at our feet for our grandfathers actions... my problem is those who spit on America for standing up against a tyrant who victimizes all he can, who lies and further strings along the UN with more misdirections about WMD, who will kill, rape, destroy with no thought or care except his own ability to stay in his gold palaces. My problem is with those who would rather see this man and his regime stay in power rather than see the United States go with a coalition of the willing, liberating his people and allowing the Iraqi's to install their own government, removing the threat of WMD to his neighbors, and thru under-regulated means allow chemical and biological agents get lose to wreck havoc on the free world. My problem is with those who believe that the US would risk all of our soldiers, the Iraqi people, and more for nothing other than to further an oil business. My problem is not with disagreeing on the means... it's with the hatred and spite sent to America for infractions imagined against their nation, and against other people. With people who see us as gun toting liars who seek to conquer the world and spread our ‘power'. Ingratitude aside, I expect to look to our allies and get support. Not be spit on and watch my flag be burned as a nation is united... by hatred for America and her President, as we look to enforce UN laws and fight a ruthless dictator. THAT is my problem. Not something against you or past ingratitude.

[Waitone]

It is my assessment the French government is acting like they did something wrong. Time will tell what it did and how bad it is.

However, I have to draw a distinction between Parisian French and non-Parisian French. A decade or more ago I spend time in France on business. I got the opportunity to do the tourist thing both in Paris and outside Paris. I came to the conclusion there exists two distinct countries called "France."

Americans in Paris were barely tolerated. I was treated rudely and inconsiderately. I was bumped on the sidewalks, I was pushed off curbs, I had water from the road obviously splashed on me. Yes, they could tell I was an American just by looking at me. I had my orders in restaurants changed because they didn't think I spoke French (which I did). Paris was without a doubt the most unfriendly city I've visited.

Outside Paris in the countryside it was a different story by a long shot. I found the French to be friendly, helpful, and well aware of America's contribution to their then current lifestyle. I ate at a restaurant on a street named after George Patton. I talked with Frenchmen who wanted to know if my father was part of invasion (he was). Outside the small town of Romulet (phonetic spelling) I found a granite memorial which was surrounded by fresh cut flowers. Inscription on the memorial in French was, "To the American Fliers who died on this field" (not exact wording).

I spent the better part of a morning at Les Envalide at the French WW II military museum. I went through the entire exhibit and was on the way out the back before the first reference to an American was seen. Then as I was leaving I encountered what could only be described as a shrine to George Patton. His display was more impressive than either the D-day exhibit or the German surrender exhibit. Americans play a distinctly minor role in the museum, all except for Patton.

Things may be different today but I doubt it. What I think we have here is the customary contempt with which Americans are treated in Paris. I will limit my jokes to Parisian jokes until I'm proven to be mistaken.

[Bob Locke]

We Never Should Have Rebuilt Them
And we should have never helped Saddam get into power in the first place, either.

Another shining example (see: Haiti, Balkans, etc.) of our total inability to go into other nations and decide what's best for them.

[Gordon]

Uh, oh there goes all the good scopes. And some pretty good beer. And don't forget the Peugeots, and Citroens(joke) . Also mack truck is owned by Renault. Frogs owns Motel Six and Redroof Inns. But I'm with you Wildalaska, bring on the Redstar scopes and african Pangas.:D

[Wildalaska]

What happened to "nice" and "polite"?

I didnt say anyhting nasty:D

[Wildalaska]

Newsflash: 18-year-olds are frequently ignorant and hyperbolic. Even in Germany. Liberals are silly. Even in Germany.

Ah, Tamara, Tamara, did you possibly miss one of the key paragraphs??

It wasn't hard to figure out where she got her information. A recent best seller, "The Fire," by the historian Jörg Friedrich, questions carpet bombings that killed hundreds of thousands of German civilians late in World War II. And documentaries shown almost nightly on German television in recent months are part of a lengthy national re-examination of the Allied air war.

These silly teenagers are getting their hyperbole somewhere eh?

WildbagdadpyongangberlinaxisAlaska

[T.Stahl]

Wildalaska, Germany provided the potential battle-field for WWIII for half a decade. My father served eight years in the German army to defend the iron curtain. My brother and I served our terms. We protected your East coast and made sure that your mainland wouldn't see a war.
I don't expect thanks for a mutual help.

Regarding the allied air-war of WWII:
Germany started the bombing of cities, the allies perfected it. My grandma was fleeing Silesia when she and her family came through Chemnitz. Unfortunately just when the allies decided to bomb a city filled with refugees and without any military importance. Have you see phosphor running into the cellar you're hiding in? Have you seen the tar of streets burning? Were you about to jump into a river because you couldn't bear it any longer?

[Tamara]

These silly teenagers are getting their hyperbole somewhere eh?

That part isn't hyperbole. The Brits did carpet bomb their cities with incindiaries every night.

At least we went during the day and attempted to bomb targets of military significance, taking it on the chin in the process. Of course, we didn't have that whole "vengeance" thing going on with the Jerries the way the Brits did; we sure had no problem carpet bombing Japanese people at night with incindiaries.

[Tamara]

Germany started the bombing of cities, the allies perfected it.

It's bad form to punch someone in the mouth and then complain because they puch harder than you do. :scrutiny:

[T.Stahl]

Tamara, I'm in a conflict. On the one hand I know that Germany was wrong. On the other hand, how can I say it was right to bomb German civilians?
But I can try to impartially state the facts. And so I stated that we started it and the allies bet us at it.

Who do you think I side with when I watch a WWII movie? :confused:

[BigG]

How soon they forget. Pretty soon it will be time to slap them down again. Just my ho.:(

[Tamara]

I guess it's the perceived claims of "Germany as Victim" status that I pick up, here. Hamburg probably wouldn't have had quite so many incindiaries dropped on it at night by the RAF if the Luftwaffe hadn't already been dropping them on London.

As far as the morality of dropping incindiaries randomly on cities at night? Obviously the USAAF thought it was wrong and immoral. Unless your targets were Japanese, that is.

[BobK]

Bring on the economic sanctions, then they'll realize how
insignificant they really are! And how much the USA helps
them! When we stop sending them $$$$$$$ and loans (which they don't pay back!), the shoe will be on the other foot.

[Tamara]

Speaking of which, have the French repaid their War Debt yet? From the '14-'18 War, I mean...

[BigG]

Sacre bleu! Why inject ze facts into ze argument? Liberated American women! carp... whine... moan... :neener:

[Soap]

Bring on the economic sanctions, then they'll realize how
insignificant they really are!

If you want to hurt Americans that is a great idea.

[T.Stahl]

I've been living here all my life and I don't think that many Germans claim a victim status. At least far, far less than the Japanese, which every August get their news coverage from Hiroshima and Nagasaki. (BTW, they lost far more lives to night raids with incendiaries mixed with delay-fused HEs to hamper the firefighters than to the two A-bombs)

Tamara, what do you expect me to do? Shall I say that it was right to bomb German cities filled with refugees? Shall I say that I'm sorry that the allies didn't drop more bombs?
Bombing London was wrong. Bombing Hamburg was wrong, too. But I can understand why the RAF did it, because Germany started it.

[Tamara]

But I can understand why the RAF did it, because Germany started it.

Er, actually I was going to say "I'm not saying it's right, I'm just saying it's understandable." You stole the words from my mouth.

(Thanks for the catch on "incendiaries"; I thought it looked funny the way I was typing it. :cool: )

[seeker_two]

Another shining example (see: Haiti, Balkans, etc.) of our total inability to go into other nations and decide what's best for them.

Our biggest problem in these cases is that the gov't goes against the idea of spreading freedom & support the local dictator instead of establishing a free republic like we have. We did that in Japan & Germany, and they prospered. We supported dictators in Haiti, the Balkans, and the Phillipines; and look what happened.

When we go in to establish Iraq's new gov't, we need to use OUR Constitution as the blueprint--and keep the dictators out! :cuss:

[T.Stahl]

Ah, these permanent misunderstandings, caused by not seeing the expression on the other's face. ;)

[Derek Zeanah]

Hrmmm.

Some points here (probably not mainstream on this board, but anyway...)

Highschool kids should be expected to be ignorant. They know what they've processed from what other people have told them; they don't have much life experience yet. For the most part, they're not mature enough to look around and come to their own conclusions, instead relying on what they're told. There's a reason 18-year-olds are preferred over older men in the Army (coming from one who went through basic/jump school/rip at 20-21 with a little bit of college and saw a huge difference between kids fresh out of high school and older folks.)
It's good to reexamine the concept of "total war." Yes, Hitler thought it was a good idea first, but the fact is we did target civilian population centers in WW2. Was it right? Is it ever right to deliberately target noncombatants (especially children) in war? Same with Hiroshima and Nagasaki -- we killed a couple of hundred thousand people in order to avoid casualties that looked to be in the millions (on our side -- worse on theirs). Was it the right thing to do? Is it OK to look back on history and discuss the moral/ethical/pragmatic issues involved? If so, is it OK for some kids to come to a conclusion other than yours?
Germany is still an occupied country. Our forces never left after WW2 -- I know, as I was stationed there. Believe it or not, there are a bunch of kids growing up over there who are upset at the idea that they're still expected to pay the price for something their grandparents were a part of. There's a huge collective guilt over the holocaust still (at least, my friends there a decade ago thought so, having grown up in it), and there are nationalistic feeling in many of the youth there. I think that's ok -- I don't happen to believe that a man should be held accountable for the mistakes of his ancestors.


Take note of this quote:Their views, more outlandish than realistic, were bolstered with selective history. Next, the students were going on a school field trip to learn more about America. They were off to see "Bowling for Columbine," the biting documentary by Michael Moore about paranoid, gun-loving, dangerously manipulated Americans. Now, how balanced a view do you think they're getting about current events? About Bush's motive for pushing the Hussein thing? Do you expect an 18-year-old German kid to be able to see through the images and stories they're being spoon-fed, when we see the same sorts of attitudes here in our own country?

I say let 'em be. Personally, I'm tired of footing the bill for Europe's defense -- let 'em handle it themselves.

But I'm not gonna blame some kid for trusting here teachers, or for believing the media's take on events without applying critical thought. I think it's foolish, but I can't even make my own sister take a more cynical view. :(

[edit: forgot the word "hundred" in there. Makes a difference.]

[T.Stahl]

Germany is still an occupied country. Our forces never left after WW2 -- I know, as I was stationed there. Believe it or not, there are a bunch of kids growing up over there who are upset at the idea that they're still expected to pay the price for something their grandparents were a part of. There's a huge collective guilt over the holocaust still (at least, my friends there a decade ago thought so, having grown up in it), and there are nationalistic feeling in many of the youth there. I think that's ok -- I don't happen to believe that a man should be held accountable for the mistakes of his ancestors.

No, we're no longer under occupation, we're a sovereign state. Or is Great Britain under US occupation, just because your forces never left GB after WW2?

VE-day was almost 58 years ago. Of course people are slowly getting fed up with paying the price for something that happened when even their parents weren't yet born. The feeling of guilt should have been replaced by the awareness of what has happened and the sense of duty to prevent it from happening again.
I think no other country is as un-patriotic as today's Germany. Patriotism was equalled to nationalism, which is evil. Germans weren't allowed to be patriotic and if they felt something like it, it had to be a kind of European patriotism.
The problem is, when you aren't allowed to be patriotic, to be proud of your own country, how can you repect and understand someone else's patriotism. Hey, if a German would behave as patriotic as the average American, he'd be considered rather nationalistic. :eek:
Of course taboos lead to extremes. People try to live up their desires. And someone else will take advantage of them. The goal should be to instill a healthy patriotic feeling in them, so they will be able to respect other people and nations as well.

[gburner]

Upon reflection, I think some of our French and German friends have it right.
Maybe the time has come to cease the expectation of a hearty thanks from them. In fact, maybe it's time that we start thanking them. In the interest of international cooperation and the peace and stability of mankind, I'll start...

I'll thank you to pull your own hidparts out of the fire the next time totalitarian fascism rears its ugly head on the continent and you hear the sound of jackboots coming down the avenues of Paris.

I'll thank you to obey the UN you so lovingly embrace and stop selling weapons, spare parts, ammunition and fixins for chemical and biological weapons to Iraq.

I'll thank you to cancel the billions of dollars worth of petro-development deals
with Iraq that fly in the face of UN sanctions.

I'll thank you to remember that as Hamburg, Frankfort, Berlin and other targets were being bombed with civilian casualties as a result, your death's head troopers were engaged in the wholesale slaughter of so called sub humans both in the countryside and in death factories.

I'll thank you Berliners to remember that dispite Joe Stalin's attempt to starve you out, we mounted the greatest airlift of supplies man has ever known.
I'll thank you all to shut your mouths and stop playing parlor games while we attempt to short circuit what could be the largest threat to civilization since the last time the French had uninvited guests.

[Derek Zeanah]

T. Stahl,

I think we're actually in agreement here, if using different words. "Occupation" was a term I heard frequently while "out on the economy," generally in a passive tone, when referring to how some of those other people feel. You know -- those people in combat boots with white laces. Those people whose positions are completely unacceptable (your friend will tell you), but understandable. The general excuse was "they just want to be proud of their country and their history, instead of constantly being reminded why they should be ashamed."

I think you're going to create problems when you raise men to believe that pride in who they are & where they come from is a path toward evil. I see it here in the US, where white men are apologetic for being born white and male; some go so far as to believe that any success they develop in life is in large part the result of racial inequality that's part of our history. It's the source for a lot of collective guilt in the US.

I don't believe it's healthy.

The healthy thing to say is "yes, there are a number of things in our nation's past that are inexcusable, and that personified the word "evil." But you can't unmake the past, and I can't be held accountable for actions that occurred before I was conceived. Let's move forward as best we can, and learn from the mistakes of the past." Seems to work with the slaughter of millions, or with chattel slavery, or whatever.

We're getting off-topic though. I'm not shocked that people coming out of German high schools would take a position like was stated in the article quoted. There's a different feeling in younger generations than in older generations -- I had old men pull me aside and tell me what they were doing in the war, and how they were glad the US won; old women would feed me when I was supposed to be out roadmarching, thankful for my presense; younger kids (who could afford cars and licenses) might yell and give us the finger. They thought we were an occupying force (of course the M16's and armored vehicles probably added to that perception.)

That's just the way it is.

[Ledbetter]

Germany provided the potential battle-field for WWIII for half a decade. My father served eight years in the German army to defend the iron curtain. My brother and I served our terms. We protected your East coast and made sure that your mainland wouldn't see a war. I don't expect thanks for a mutual help.

Inscrutable logic at work here. It's not like Germany volunteered to be the battleground for the cold war for our benefit. Nor did they intend to protect OUR east coast. You certainly shouldn't expect any thanks from me, as I perceive no intent to benefit me or my country.

What I perceive in this situation is that the German government, for the second time in the same century, turned into a rabid dog that had to be destroyed before it killed everything around it. After that destruction, which left the populace defenseless against the Soviets, other more responsible governments had to protect the populace until the end of the Cold War.

Unfortunately just when the allies decided to bomb a city filled with refugees and without any military importance. Have you see phosphor running into the cellar you're hiding in? Have you seen the tar of streets burning? Were you about to jump into a river because you couldn't bear it any longer?

This is the High Road, so all I will ask is if you're ever inhaled Zyklon-B or been machine-gunned into your own grave. Your comparison of the actions of the Allies in World War II with the actions of the German government is quite repugnant and displays prominently the selective nature of your (nation's) memory.

The goal should be to instill a healthy patriotic feeling in them, so they will be able to respect other people and nations as well.

Bliss-ninny lunacy. The goal should be to conduct your nation in such a way as to make your people proud. Americans are, on the whole, proud of their country's actions over the last century. We are courageous, generous, right-minded prople and DAMN proud of our country with good reason.

To boost your people's self-esteem, your nation should something great and good for a change.

[sw442642]

All nation states take care of their own interests. It is a foolish dream of Americans
to think that states will act in accord with their values. We certainly supported
dictators all over the world because we feared the Soviets.

However, the Germans have little to complain about during WWII. Being mistreated
by the Treaty of Versailles does not excuse becoming a pathological monstrosity that
will rememberd for 1000's of years.

Any action necessary should have been taken. If in 1943, we developed a space warp
device that would send all of Germany into the sun, would you tell the Allies not to
press that buttion?

It wasn't as if the German people were not part and parcel of their nation's crimes.

Basically, the time for Nato is over. The Soviets are kaput and Nato was just an alliance against
them. The EU is so militarily ineffective that they are a joke.

It is also the case that the UN has outlived its life. We gave it authority when we dominated
it. We don't. Stop pretending that the Charter has real power over us. Only force works
in this world. Time to realize it.

If Iran invented the time warp - they wouldn't go the Security Council. The USA
and Israel would be instantly destroyed.

[Atticus]

There's only one little problem with all the anti- US anti Bush rhetoric. It it not based on facts or history. In every example where US miltiary force was used (usually reluctantly), the conquered ememy was propped up, and in most ways left better off than it was. Maybe Europeans simply don't learn from past mistakes (that could explain the number of wars they've participated in). The US has learned that you don't wait until you've been beaten, to begin defending yourself. Bush SR. made a serious mistake by not carrying the first war to Bagdad.

Liberals, both here and abroad, were making nearly identical anti-US statements when we went into Afghanistan. Has the outcome there (thus far) already been forgotten?

How does life in S. Korea compare to that of the north? What's going on in Serbia/Kosovo these days?

Somali's are begging for us to come back, and cursing the day that Blackhawks were shot down.

We don't ask Europe for eternal gratitude- we only ask you to judge our actions after studying our history.

[T.Stahl]

Inscrutable logic at work here. It's not like Germany volunteered to be the battleground for the cold war for our benefit. Nor did they intend to protect OUR east coast. You certainly shouldn't expect any thanks from me, as I perceive no intent to benefit me or my country.

Do you have costal gun emplacements and SAM sites along your East and West Coast? Do you maintain flotillas of shallow water subs? Do you have mechanized divisions on your Northern border?
No, because it's the US's strategy to defend CONUS on the opposite coast. You have troops stationed on the West coast of Asia, not only to protect South Korea and Japan from an invasion, but also to prevent any enemy from attacking you from that coast.
Likewise you had troops stationed in Europe, not only to protect Western and Central Europe together with your allies from an attack from the Warsaw Pact, but also to protect your East Coast.
It's mutual help. You help me protect my country and by defending my country, yours will be safe, too.
I don't expect you to thank me. I'd be happy if you'd just see the benefit for you and your country.

This is the High Road, so all I will ask is if you're ever inhaled Zyklon-B or been machine-gunned into your own grave. Your comparison of the actions of the Allies in World War II with the actions of the German government is quite repugnant and displays prominently the selective nature of your (nation's) memory.

I did not compare the genocide the Nazis committed and the Allied bombing of cities filled with civilian refugees. Nor did I try to offset one action with the other.
In retrospect I regard both actions as wrong. But I'm not saying that the genocide was less wrong because the bombings happened.

I mentioned my grandma's experience, because I got the impression that Blackhawk didn't like the tv documentaries regarding the Allied air war. What my grandparents told me about the war influenced my decision to join the army to defend my country and prevent such cruelty from happening again (coming from a different source, the WP).

Bliss-ninny lunacy. The goal should be to conduct your nation in such a way as to make your people proud. Americans are, on the whole, proud of their country's actions over the last century. We are courageous, generous, right-minded prople and DAMN proud of our country with good reason.

To boost your people's self-esteem, your nation should something great and good for a change.

Ledbetter, I am proud to be a German, just as you are proud to be an American. There are things in Germany's history I CAN be proud of and there are things in my country's history that I'm ashamed of, that I remember and that I will prevent from happening again. I accept my country's history as a whole, including its dark spots, but not limiting it to them. I hope you do likewise, because then we can accept each other as equals and respect the other's feelings for his country.

[Atticus]

T.Stahl - I think we all draw conclusions based on our own experiences and a collective memory. Your view of our government, and our actions, is tinted with the memories of the actions of your own government and your country's past. I'm not saying that's a totally bad thing, but it might explain the difference of opinion that we all seem to have.

[T.Stahl]

Derek, I see we agree.

Those who consider the presence of US forces as an "occupation" are wrong. And those who say that the US forces were and are here only to protect Europe are wrong, too. Stationing large parts of European forces in the US wouldn't have helped our alliance. Keeping all of the US forces in CONUS wouldn't have helped either. Your forces have to be close to where a war would happen.

I hate those guys with the white laces. They are a disgrace and don't help my country's image. The only soft spot I have for them is on the forward end of a bullet. They are an example for an unhealthy, over done patriotism that has turned into nationalism. I can neither understand nor accept them.

Those people whose positions are completely unacceptable (your friend will tell you), but understandable. The general excuse was "they just want to be proud of their country and their history, instead of constantly being reminded why they should be ashamed."

That is dangerous. It's dangerous to underestimate them and treat them like misguided little boys.

[T.Stahl]

Atticus, of course the conclusions one draws are influenced by one's point of view and the background against which he sees the things. I'm not denying what has happened and of course it has to influence what I think and how I act.

[rock jock]

Not helping them rebuild after WWI was the main reason Hitler came to power & WWII happened at all. Read how Germany was savaged by the Treaty of Versailles (mostly influenced by the French). It made Reconstruction look like the Salvation Army...
A frequently misinterpretation. The truth is that the reparations were neither onerous nor unusual. The myth of the "terrible humiliation and financial hardship" wrought by the Treaty of Versailles is one popularly promoted in the first part of the 20th century and embraced by Germans as an excuse for their starting of WWII, but it is historical revisionism nonetheless.

[Ledbetter]

you had troops stationed in Europe, not only to protect Western and Central Europe together with your allies from an attack from the Warsaw Pact, but also to protect your East Coast.
It's mutual help.

Mutual implies equal or at least similar benefit. Let's see, our east coast is over three thousand miles from the soviet border. How close was yours? Who got the lion's share of the protection and who paid the lion's share of the cost. "Mutual?" Better look that word up.

You also left out the second half of my statement. The fact that Germany ended up right next door to the USSR is Germany's own fault. Before Germany destroyed eastern Europe, there was no need for the US to station troops there because eastern Europe hadn't been crushed by the Original Jack Booted Thugs. You destroy the buffer--you become the buffer. It ain't a favor, it's the natural, foreseeable consequence of Germany's own actions.

If you can find something about your country to be proud of, good for you. Whom did YOU liberate? (I thought so.)

[trooper]

If you can find something about your country to be proud of, good for you.

Well, of course we DID give the world Hitler, the concentration camps and numerous other atrocities; no doubt about that.

On the other hand we also gave the world Goethe, Kant, the car (and still today the best specimen thereof), great beer ;) , flight (think Otto Lilienthal), Mozart... do I need to go on?

Seriously, for example I'm rather proud of my eastern countrymen's peaceful revolution in 1989 (while I do recognize that we owe a great deal to both Americans and Michail Gorbatchev).

I'm proud of my country being one of the world's most stable democracies.

I'm proud of my country burying its century-lasting aversion with France and taking part in an endeavour to unite European nations that have fought among themselves all their lives.

That said, I view myself as a European just as much as a German. And I'm proud of my greater homecountry being the past and present cultural center of our Western civilization.

If your patriotic pride is based on the assumption that your country doesn't have any dark spots in its history then you're in for a major disappointment no matter what nation you belong to.


Regards,

Trooper

[hops]

Germany, directly or indirectly helped liberate lots of people.

1815 - With England, Russia, Austria, defeated France / Napoleon. Also, saved England's / Wellington's butt at Waterloo.

1871 - Freed Alsance and Lorraine.
Helped also Italy create its modern self, by weakening Austria-Hungary (1866) and crushing France (1871).

1917-1918: Finland

1941 - (tried) Baltic countries - lots of them followed the German army back to Germany in 1944-1945.

1942 - (tried) The Ukraine. My great uncle marched through and the German troops were welcomed as ,liberators. Quite a few Ukranians followed the German army west in 1944-1945.
(The west seems to forget that Stalin starved 10-12 million of them in 1933-1934).

You can argure that since Germany bled England white in WWII, and weakened France:

French Indo-China.

India, Pakistan, Malaysia, Singapore, Palestine / Israel since England no longer had the military and fiscal resources to dominate these inhabitants.

Also, concentration camps are an English invention. Read about the Boer War. When the Boer's, defeated in the field, resorted to guerrilla warefare, the English rounded up the Boer families in to camps and let them rot, literally.

[Waitone]

I was under the impression the modern concentration camp was an American innovation. Up until Grant took over command of Union forces both sides employed a catch and release policy.

Grant rode into town and didn't think that was such a good thing and refused to repatriate confederate captives. The confederates went and did likewise. Only problem was the south didn't have the resources for proper care and feeding of prisoners in great numbers. That led to Andersonville. The North had several camps of the same caliber but their names escape me.
Seems like I read this in a history book somewhere at sometime.

[.45FMJoe]

Bush SR. made a serious mistake by not carrying the first war to Bagdad.


Your logic is flawed, Bush sr. was not able to do so. You may thank the UN for that one.

[trooper]

Duh! :banghead:

Of course Mozart was Austrian, not German.

Then again, a lot of Austrians were quite happy when the Reich assimilated them...

But I think I've made my point clear nonetheless.


Regards,

Trooper