Carry - The ''O'Clock'' choice

[P95Carry]

I hear many folks mention 4 o'clock for their rig position. I however am always forward of this - electing to be 3 o'clock or just verging a bit to 3.30. Incidentally - I have never gotten on with IWB ... it's an anatomical/comfort deal - so OWB always.

If I go too far back 2 things in particular happen - 1) I tend to find that gun butt sticks out more and even with large lose shirt will print much more if bending etc. 2) It is far less feasable or comfortable when in truck and putting a belt on.

A third issue - a personal one - is simply what feels good for a draw - and what works. I can side-swipe ands flick back my shirt and be on the gun quick, with the draw coming smoothly - it suits my ''claw hand'' position as I aquire the grip. Further round seems more awkward.

I was given an OWB SOB rig .. beautiful leather, but am not that happy with the position regarding comfort - or come to that - the potential for pain if falling. Sitting also difficult. Mind you - the draw is in fact quite fast and fluid.

Anyways - let's hear your views on this, and preferences and why.

[Ala Dan]

Greeting's All-

First off, let me start by wishing my friend P95Carry a very Happy
Birthday! :D

Next, this is a very good subject as I find IWB at 4 o'clock becoming
uncomfortable; and it would be very unlikely that you could some
how retrieve a weapon from this position while wearing a seat belt.
After carrying "Mexican" style for years (while off-duty), I went to
IWB at 4 o'clock right before the seat belt law when into effect
nation wide. :( So, what are your suggestions? Keep in mind, I'm
short (5'9") and fat ('bout 212-215 lbs).

[dev_null]

My 1911/VersaMax II double as a kidney protector. It's a bit more of a reach, but much more comfortable as it sits flat and is virtually undetectable, and I can still clear leather fast enough to not be an issue.

The drawback, as mentioned, is in the car, especially since the IIS and other insurance company lobbies have pushed mandatory seatbelt laws through. Don't really have an answer for that, as taking the gun out when getting in the car and putting it back when leaving would draw too much attention, negating the whole point of concealed carry. I suppose in a more open-carry-friendly atmosphere (I'm in VA, but in the yuppified areas), a paddle would be one answer. Another possiblility would be a "car gun," but the idea of leaving a gun in my vehicle all the time makes me nervous. It would be bad enough if someone stole my car, or broke in and took the crappy CD player, but if some crook got a free pistol out of the deal that would really bother me.

I was going to say that in an ideal world I would be able to wear a CAS-style rig instead, but in an ideal world I wouldn't need to!

- 0 -

[P95Carry]

Dan - appreciate the greetings and thank you :) Mind you, with a trailing zero once more in place after another decade I think perhaps I need some commiserations too :D

So - suggestions? Well heck, I'd reckon you just need to try all configurations really, which over the years I guess you have anyways. Of course, one prob' I see with IWB (and one reason it don't work for me) is pressure on bone. I am 6'.00" and 200 ... actually still quite lean and so not enough ''padding''.... just hate something within the belt.

Being quite broad of shoulder, my shirt hangs such that the space required for my 3 o'clock OWB piece is happily covered with negligable printing prob's.

I reckon we all have to try stuff out - probably explains we many of us have the inevitable ''box of rigs'' :p That said I still find it interesting to wonder what ''o'clock'' preferences folks have and why.

[nordaim]

I carry at 4 o'clock, OWB. 1911 in a Galco rig with ~10-15% cant.

I used to carry IWB (Ruger P94 and Walther P99) at 6 o'clock. Also used to carry in a shoulder rig on my left side, high under my arm pit.

I stopped carrying at 6 o'clock after some discussions with some constable friends of mine. They were against this form of carry because if you were to get shoved to the ground it could readily pin your weapon and who knows what damage the hard edge your firearm would cause to your spine/small of your back. I thought about this and spent sometime with my pistol in that position rolling around on the ground. I got the idea of what they meant about pinning the weapon and just my own body weight rolling around ontop of my pistol was highly uncomfortable. Thinking about what would happen if I were pushed and you added gravity to the mix, it just seemed like a bad idea.

That lead me to the shoulder rig. It was a change of position, more comfortable (once I got everything adjusted), and made it easier to access from a seated position, which I am often in because of travelling in the car. I found though that it severely restricted what I was able to wear in order to properly conceal it.

With the change to a 1911 frame pistol, I needed a new quality rig, so sorted through the collection of Galco that was available at my local gun shop. I also asked one of the fellows who worked there what he used and he recommended the particular rig that I picked up.

When I first started wearing strong side hip, I started with the 3 o'clock position. It was nice for a good draw, but after more than a few hours of wearing, it become painfully uncomfortable as the butt would press into my side if I was seated for too long. I also found that with my normal dress (khaki's and a polo) that if I were to reach wrong, the very end of my holster would be exposed. I also printed a bit more than I would like when I turned.

That finally lead me to the 4 o'clock position, OWB. It is about as comfortable as I could ask for, allowing for day (16hr) long carry, with a little practice the draw was just as quick as from the 3 o'clock (well, quicker since I have been practicing my draw a lot more). Also the butt rests just lightly against my skin so that I am in near constant touch contact with my pistol, but not nearly as abrasively as it was at the 3 o'clock.

As for me, I am 5'11", 160-165lbs. Average.

[DR]

I'm with you on preferring 3:00. 4:00 seems to conceal better so long as I keep still. At 3:00, if I'm moving about my elbow helps keep things covered and I can tell easily if my cover has ridden up. Plus, 3:00 is more comfortable for those of us who spend a lot of time behind a desk. That said, it's usually a J frame in a pocket for me. I find myself using IWB less and less.

[anapex]

When I'm back in PA (where I can actually carry), I usually go IWB at 3 or 3:30. Chris, Happy Birthday! and if you want I'll show you the IWB holster I use next time I see ya. It does a pretty good at spreading things out and keeping it close.

[Trebor]

I carry just in front of the right hip. Probably 2 o'clock or maybe 2:30. I use a clip-on IWB holster (Alessi Talon) with a S&W M-65 with a 3" barrel. This position is very comfortable and conceals very well. I usually just wear a T-shirt and jeans and I have no problems.

I first tried this position with a Makarov and a cheap IWB. That worked even better due to the slimmer shape of the Mak. The Smith still works fine, it's just that I can notice the difference if I put on one gun and then take it off and try the other.

Barrel length is critical with this position though. A short barrel allows the gun to point outboard to the right, away from my leg. With longer barrel the the barrel rests along the leg and it just doesn't work. It's hard to explain, but if you tried it you'd instantly see what I meant. The 3" Smith works fine, but I don't think a 4" would work at all. That extra inch of barrel makes all the difference. The butt of the gun does not stick out at all and I can bend over without the gun printing against my shirt.

[P95Carry]

DR - you mention one good point I forgot and yet should not have. That is the elbow-tucked-in effect with 3 o'clock use. I find I do this unconsciously (and it does not look in the least obvious) ...... it helps for wind lift problems .. getting in and out of truck etc . and also it is an ''instacheck'' ... to feel the gun is there (yeah - I have been known to leave the bathroom ''nekkid'') until elbow confirms a certain lack of bulk! :p

Dave ....... I certainly have nothing inherently against IWB as a principle and yeah - if you have that rig next time we meet up - be more than glad to see it. Thx for the greeting too :)

[R.H. Lee]

I like 4 O'clock strongside IWB, whether a 642 or a fullsize 1911. :)

[Ringer]

I'm typically in the 3:00 to 3:30 range with a forward cant. It conceals well for me in either a high and tight OWB or in VM-II IWB. Any further back and it is not comfortable for me sitting. As DR said it's easy to lay your arm against it inconspicuously when necessary. I also have a harder time with a quick smooth draw from 4:00 on back. When I'm in a car I slide the holster forward to a pinch ahead of 3:00 or so for easier access, although this is hard to do with the VM-II as it is rock solid in place (good thing).

[P95Carry]

Riley - gottcha - at 4, but - I am trying to establish the ''why'' of preferences as well ...... I assume this is what works best of course for you but - what did you find less useful about other positions, assuming you have tried em.?

[R.H. Lee]

Concealibility is the major factor. 4 o'clock seems to work best. Second is comfort. Third is access. :)

BTW, Happy Birthday!

[Wildalaska]

What oclock is your back pocket :)

WildmidnightAlaska

[pax]

1 or 2 o'clock IWB for me, what some folks call appendix carry.

Being female, curvy and short waisted, 3 o'clock is a bad joke for me. The curves make the gun barrel stick out and drive the grip into my ribs.

Although I know other people who do, I wouldn't carry behind the hip even if I were built for it. I can easily envision getting knocked onto keister or flat on my back, and wouldn't be able to access the gun. SOB carry makes that problem even more pronounced, and I know a fellow who broke his back falling on top of his SOB. Bad juju.

Although I normally use my right hand for drawing and shooting, I like being able to draw the gun easily with either hand. Who knows? If I'm ever attacked, maybe my right hand will be damaged, or full of something I cannot put down.

Appendix carry doesn't really get in the way of the seat belt in the car, a nice plus.

Biggest drawback is the practical difficulty of concealment. But everyone has that problem, and after five years doing this without getting made, I think it's safe to say I've figured that one out okay.

pax

[P95Carry]

Thx Riley.

WA - back pocket (pockets) ... well let's say 5.30 and 6.30 ! If that's not too ''cheeky'' :p

Pax ........ sounds like you have that one sorted, for you. I'd guess tho you are probably limited to barrel length or I imagine sitting would be tricky. If you ain't been made in five years, then you gotta be doing good with concealment!! :)

[Mulliga]

Being able to comfortably access the gun while sitting in a car or a chair is very important to me, so SOB/6:00 carry is out. I usually opt for 3:00/4:00 IWB carry inside the house. It's a compromise (a shoulder holster would grant even better access, but I'd always have to be wearing a second button-up/zippered shirt or jacket), but everything is.

[Old Dog]

Three to three-thirty for me, IWB or OWB, with either an Officer's or Commander length 1911 in a holster with pronounced forward cant ... don't know why, it's always seemed more comfortable, the pistols hold extremely flat against my side -- at four-o'clock, the butt seems to print a bit ...

[TallPine]

I seem to be most comfortable with about 3.30+ OWB.

Trouble is, it doesn't necessarily stay there but keeps working back towards about 4.30, stopped only by the next belt loop. My jeans have the side loop a little behind the seam, so the holster is behind that. I've tried the holster in front of the loop, at about exactly 3.00, but my hips are just too lean and bony and I get sore after a few hours. Seems most LEOs carry at about 2.30 these days - I don't know how they can handle that pressure on the hip bone. (maybe that's the reason for all the donuts ;) )

Someday I want to try a "pancake" holster - one with two slots for your belt to go through. I figure one slot in front of the side belt loop and the other slot behind that loop should help anchor the position.

Keep in mind I vary between open and concealed depending on the weather and what coat or sweater I might have on, or whether the shirt is tucked or not.

[Ala Dan]

Expanding on this issue, I read somewhere that your choice of a CCW
should be comforting; not comfortable. Rest assured, I think it being
comfortable is just as important; cuz the way I see it, if it isn't then
you will have a tendency to leave your CCW behind.

[dmallind]

Just experimenting with carry for first time now so may evolve later but as a porky guy I find a 2.30 position just in front of the hip conceals best and feels must comfortable and accessible right now. I use a Fobus OWB paddle/Glock 19 setup and can get to it easily past the cover garment in this position. Because of my blubber 3.00 sticks out a bit too much I feel.

[garyk/nm]

Normally 4:00 iwb or owb with forward cant. Been experimenting lately with 5:00 and a LH holster for a palm-out draw. Feels more natural so far, but not enough practice to know for sure.

[Kamicosmos]

Primary carry is an SP101 OWB @ 3:30ish. IWB has to be more at 4 or 4:30 cause my boney hips get upset with the gun pressing into them!

I carry my Beretta mod 21 at about 11:30 or so, right behind the belt buckle.

Larger guns like my CZ97B or Beretta 96 are more at a 4-4:30 position for better concealment.

[Maddock]

Happy Birthday Chris!
I carry IWB in a Sparks Summer Special at about 4:00 = 4:30 with a 15-18 degree cant. Usually a 4-5” 1911 or a 4” K or N frame Smith. I’ve been doing this for so many years that it seems odd to carry anywhere else on the belt.
I have noticed that barrel length is a factor in this. Shorter barrels are not nearly as comfortable or concealable. The longer barrel/slide seems to keep the handle “tucked in”. The 442 does go into a front pocket holster though. I used to carry my snubbies primarily in a series of Renegade ankle holsters, but as I grow older and stiffer (and plumper), I don’t want to bend over that far.:p
I’ve found that a wide (1 3/4”) stiff belt is even more essential for IWB than a conventional OWB rig.

[P95Carry]

Thx for the wishes Maddock :)

I always wonder (and accepting your chosen habit of years) how that far round behaves when driving and sitting. I doubt I could cope with that myself when driving. Heck tho - the only thing that matters is what works!! ;)

[azrael]

Yo Chris...Happy Birthday!!!!!!

I favor rear pocket carry most of the time...However when carrying an OWb it tends to be at 4o'clock...

SOB rigs are messes waiting to happen...Some love them, some love to hate them..I just cant get into them..



A thread about holster's and not ONE cheap plug from everyone's favorite holster maker/horror movie fiend!!...I must be watching the Spongebob Squarepants movie to much with my 3 yearold :what:

[P95Carry]

Hey Dave ma fren (to quote Johnny!) ... thanks bud.

Must say rear pocket is as yet not my bag ... maybe cos sitting is awkward. My wallet full of mostly junk of course is enough bulge. :D

[Lennyjoe]

9 o'clock for the same reason. I notice the butt of the gun sticks out more when I have it at 8 o'clock.

In case your wondering, I am left eye dominant, right handed and shoot left handed. :confused:

[MrMurphy]

4 oclock with 15 deg cant.

[P95Carry]

Clear as mud Lenny LOL :neener: :)

[FireStar_M40]

Here's a link to the "Andrews Carjacker Crossdraw".


http://www.andrewsleather.com/carjackerx.htm


FireStar_M40

[Coltdriver]

I carry a snub nose with a Hume high ride with a forward cant and a thumb break. I like about 2:45 to be picky about it. Just forward of 3 o clock and it tucks right up and dissappears. I have carried an N frame in the same position but I have to use a wind breaker or fairly baggy jacket to hide it right.

I picked up an English special forces shoulder rig real cheap a few years ago. It is for a High Power. The holster sits vertically under my left arm, it has a spring built into it to secure the pistol. It is real comfortable but I could never get it to ride properly until I went across my chest with one side of the retaining strap. That brings on another problem of hiding the strap.

IWB was something that I could never get the hang of. I just don't have the build for it.

A good belt brings out the best in the holster designers work.

[Flashpoint]

P95Carry
I know it's a bit late, but, happy birthday. Better late than never, huh.

Anyway, I carry a Steyr S series IWB at 4 O'clock or OWB at about 3:30. I have bought most of my pants a little two big so that stuffing a gun in my waistband help to hold them up. I had my Highnoon Hidden Alley modified with a FBI cant so that the grip rides along my side instead of sticking out. For the most part I find that IWB comfortable enough. I trade off a lot more concealability for a little less comfort of the OWB. I go OWB when my gut has grow/pants have shunk and/or the shirt I have put on will cover it sufficiently.

I have tried , but it just is not comfortable, but if I'm going to be out walking, mowing the grass, riding my bike ect... I will carry 6 O'clock in a belly band type holster.

[Trebor]

Pax, have you found that barrel length is critical for appendix carry? I know I have. The Mak or the 3" M-65 are the largest guns I can carry in that position. Anything longer and the barrel just gets in the way.

[Greymoor]

Between 3:30 and 4:00 usually in either a IWB or OWB. Sometimes with my Kahr PM9 I have moved it to 1:30 - 2:00 it is short enough not to dig in too bad.

[pax]

trebor ~

A short barrel probably is critical with appendix carry, but frankly I've never actually tried to carry anything longer than my Glock 26 in that spot. The other guns I use are just range guns, and working from the holster with them means OWB at 3 o'clock.

pax

[miko912]

While we don't share the same shape(or gender for that matter), my S&W6906 rides in the same spot as your glock. I'm 6' and 225lbs. currently and it seems to disappear with just jeans and a semi-baggy t-shirt. It isn't the most comfortable spot, but I can get to it quickly, nobody knows its there, and I don't have to check to see if it's there. It does require adjusting when I get in the car but I don't think people notice.


Bill

[Smoke]

IWB or OWB....the top of the slide is right behind my hipbone.

Call it 3:45 :D

Smoke

[Maddock]

I always wonder (and accepting your chosen habit of years) how that far round behaves when driving and sitting
I’ve actually found that farther around back works better when driving. 3 o’clock tends to get tangled with the seat belt buckle. My build may have something to do with it, I have a long torso with relatively short arms and a fanny big enough that when it is all the way back in the seat there is still a bit of a hollow at the small of the back.

[Black Snowman]

I find 3:30 and about 5:00 to be most comfortable for me. Easier to conceal for me at about 5:00 but the draw is a little slower. For sitting 3:30 is more comfortable but the lump at 5:00 is easy for me to get used to.

[Zundfolge]

I started out carrying at 4:00, but about a year ago I shifted to 3:00 and I discovered several things;

3:00 conceals better (especially if you bend over and when seated on a bench or backless chair)
3:00 allows me access to my gun while driving.
when the wind blows my gun is less likely to be uncovered because my arm is at my side
After some timing and experimenting I find that I can draw faster from 3:00 then 4:00, and my drawstroke is more "correct" (more like what you learn in shooting school)
along that vein, drawing and shooting from a retention position is much more natural when drawing from 3:00 (less tendency to swing out and around as you draw)
people are less likely to bump into my gun a 3:00


But this is a classic YMMV thing ... and everyone's body is shaped differently so I'm sure some of you will find that 4:00 or 9:00/crossdraw works better for you.

[P95Carry]

Zund - seems we share a large page :) Pretty much my own findings as you may have read.

[sm]

I've already Sent my sentiments to Bonnie being married to a really old guy now. :neener:

IWB - hey if Smoke can post 3:45 - I can post 3:57 right? Has a nice ring to it don't you think? :p

Now gonna get fussed at. I have to Improvise, Adapt and Overcome MY particular needs and circles where I travel. NOT a good idea to have only a holster on person when the gun is safely secured - got it? ;)

Now just a few hours ago two folks were shot in their vehicle at an area I often travel. Where I am now, I hear shots all the time. So car access is important. I mean just getting to and fro I watch and take certain routes.

Inside my tucked shirt about 2:30 so I can access my 'niche' gun with my right/strong hand. Crossdraw if you will. NO I don't like it, not my favorite CCW method. I am able to unbutton my oxford shirt while in the vehicle for faster access.

Ya'll didn't read that - right? ;)

[P95Carry]

Yeah - I read it :). :p

Bonnie knows how to ''handle'' the old guy - lots of TLC ... my cup runneth over. But hey - I'll keep the saucer handy - eh?! :D:D

[sm]

You are good man , a trusted friend Chris. Age, is just a number - a state of mind.

Like firearms - not so much what you brung - knowing damn well how to run what you brung that counts.

[albanian]

I used my car seat as a way to tell how far forward of 4:00 I need to carry. It varies depending on what gun I am carrying. I often carry IWB but I am finding it more and more uncomfortable as I get fatter. If I lost a few pounds around the middle, it would creat the hollow areas in my back and sides that are better for gun carry. Damm them Chinese Buffets!

For car carry, cross draw is best but if you have a seat belt on, you are better off keeping the gun out of the holster or in a shoulder holster. Pocket carry in a car is probably the worst of all. If I am driving through a bad part of town, I often stick the gun under the right side of my right leg.

To be honest, I am finding that I am carrying a gun on my person less and less. My job is such that it is impossible and ill advised to carry a gun on me. I also don't feel the need to have a gun at work. On personal time, my S&W 642 is almost always in my glove box. If I am going somewhere even slightly dangerous, I either put it in my coat pocket without a holster or I use my clip on IWB holster. I would say that I carry a gun on my person about 5-10% of the time I am out. If you include glove box carry as CCW (as the law does), then I carry about 25% of the time since I am in my car alot.

[medmo]

IWB 4:00. 3:00 pinches when sitting. Sparks Summer Special and Kramer IWB's. I had to carry in a shoulder holster for about 6 months about 15 years ago and it never felt comfortable. I also buy pants that are 2" larger in the waist because of the IWB carrying habit. You will know that I'm unarmed if you see me holding my pants up....

[jamz]

If it's OWB, 3 oclock is comfiest and most easily accessable for me. IWB, 4:00 fits just about right. I'd prefer 3, but it just doesn't conceal well that way, so I sacrafice a little comfort forr good concealability.


-James

[P95Carry]

Thanks for further responses.

James I think there is certainly a correlation here when comparing IWB and OWB. Does seem that 4 is very popular for IWB and of course I guess that's logical re the pressure on iliac crest of pelvis.

With OWB the pressure there is hardly an issue, plus as others have noted as well as me - here we have a good position for elbow ''presence check'' and also shirt/wind problem control. I find too the slight pressure of grips under lower rib a good reminder of presence.

[PCRCCW]

As a maker of leather gun hide'n thingys I can say most people I talk to that have done this for a while prefer the same thing........especially with Med to Large S'Auto's. 3-3.30 OWB and 3.30-4.00 IWB.

The cant and rd ht. should allow you to draw the gun naturally and smoothly and not put the gun too low or high.

I fit the same criteria as most of your other replies thus far. OWB 3.30 IWB 4.00...............

Shoot well............OH Ya, Happy Birthday................:D

[P95Carry]

Thx Eric :)