The Race for the Best Wilderness Gun

[munk]

I've a few thoughts on this subject, and with modern firearm introductions changing the market- like the Smith 500 and 460, proprietary 475 Linebaugh, thought I'd air this out and see what other's think.

First, my own personal prejudices are that a handgun is never going to be a rifle. It should be carryable, and rely upon bullet weight and large diameter at relatively moderate velocities. This allows quick repeat shots.
Efforts to go beyond 'typical' handgun power levels always introduce tradeoffs, usually in weight and bulk of the arm, but in recoil and handability as well.

The 454 was the first widely available of the new breed, though the Action Express 50 is in there too. I never liked the extra pressure level of the Casul- a cheap fix in my opinion. A handloader could correct for this, load the round in the same SAMMI pressure specs as the traditional mags like the 44 and 41. The argument usually goes you can load up when you have to- like when you're extra paranoid about Bear.
The funny thing about 'Bear Loads" is everyone in the lower 48 has to have one- even if they live in Ohio. !!

As wrist slamming as the Casul is, foregoing the 'fast' followup shot, it at least does not give in to the second trade-off departure from the traditional, and that is weight. You can buy a Casul that weighs perfectly within the range that is carryable with comfort. That's important. If you don't have it with you 20 miles from the road in your campsite because it weighed too much to carry, all it's power does you no good. I never used to mind weight that much- I carried a Wesson Supermag for awhile, and that's as big as the Current Smith 500, but at age 48 with a couple mashed disks, I like the N frame and the Redhawk's as the outside limit today.

The Smith big frame weighs 72 OZ unloaded with the standard long barrel. The DE weighs, I believe, 70.2 oz. That's actually what motivated me to write this thread today- pondering the differences between the two.
The Smith is big and powerful. Despite it's muzzle brake, it is not described by many as easily shootable. I'd say by no one-but there are bound to be people in denial who claim they love the smack of metal against the bridge of the forefinger and thumb, and I won't argue with that. I'll just say by any fair appraisel of MOST shooters it is not an arm to pleasently shoot full power loads from all day long.

How fast one could get this arm into battery, or how much slower than an N frame Smith, is a question.


The DE 50 is far less powerfull, not even loaded to the same pressure as revolver specs. But it does pack a wallop significantly above the 44, and does it with an ability to shoot fast. It is not that bad; I've shot them and they feel about like a 44 in a revolver of traditional weight. But it is heavy and bulky; so we see in this the trade off is size only.

What do you Ladies and Gentlemen think about this?

For pure fun, I think the DE would be the Cat's pajama's, but at 1000 plus bucks I'm out of the ball game. I'll probably save for the 480 Ruger. I know that's panzy class to many of you here. But it does what the traditional wilderness gun is supposed to do and does it better than any of the 41's, 44's, and 45 Colt's. LArge diameter, heavy projectlie at around 1350 fps. You can shoot it fast enough, and it's lighter than the comparable 44 Super Redhawk. If you've not fired a 480 Ruger you're missing something- it feels 'right'. It has the same balance as a hot 45 Colt or 41. It just has the feel.

I doubt the Casul or 500 have that feel, (and I've only fired the Casul) but for the most sincere caution about bear attack, these mega power rounds offer what typical handguns cannot- rifle power. The 500 and 460 are about like the 45/70. That's something, I just don't want to carry it. I rather think a short carbine would be a better choice at that point.

I think the first maker to put out a gas operated 460 and 500 carbine is going to make millions.

Thanks for listening. I hope Someone could explain what is 'most best' in this field. It sure has changed in 20 years, hasn't it?

Edit: All of the new weapons are fine hunters. I've been looking at this from my usual- what do I do if attacked? perspective. A guy who wants to carry the big Smith for hunting and defense gets no static from me.
munk

[Harry Paget Flashman]

At age 56 I don't see getting 20 miles to a wilderness campsight without my truck. I used to hike a lot in California when I was in my twenties and carried a T/C .44 Mag or Ruger Security Six .357 or both. What I learned then was that an ounce in the morning weighs a pound in the late afternoon. That was then. Now that ounce ends up feeling like a kilogram to me.

If I was going into the back country for the long term I'd carry my old H&R revolver with the .22 WMR cylinder. Not my lightest gun but I could tote a lot more ammo. Any .22 is a game getter even if I have to use shotshell. I've eaten chipmunk before. If I end up eaten by a bear it won't give me much consolation that I'd mortally wounded him with a .44 Mag before I died.

[munk]

I have to admire anyone who has eaten a chipmunk. Dedication or hunger or both. There's a chipmunk in Montana about the size of a skinny mouse.
Where in Calif did you hike?





munk

[jcs271]

Excellent points, I recently "upgraded" from the Casul field grade .454 ,4 1/2 inch barrel to the new S&W 500 4 inch. I live, hike and hunt right in the middle of the Yaak/Cabinet wilderness area which is all prime Grizzly Country.
While I have been very fortunate and NEVER have had a griz encounter several of my neighbors and hunting partners have and they were all really shaken after the ordeal. So I carry this gun whenever I am out of the truck.
FOR ME it is the best combination of stopping power, portability and firepower. Those five 440 gr solids in a double action revolver are about as good as it gets. I have many years experience and training with smith double actions so it is a platform much more familiar to me than is the single action .454 .
Yes it is heavy but it is much more portable than my guide gun (it is always on my side) it has more rounds (5 vs4) and greater penetration than the 45-70.
It is not for recreational shooting but it is about the perfect gun for my particular needs and in my opinion it has less of a sharp recoil than my .454.

I'll continue to carry it daily and hope that I never have to use it!

[Harry Paget Flashman]

Munk. Hiked in Sierra's(East side), Yosemite, Tuolome Meadows, Hunter-Ligget, Lake Pillsbury, Lassen, Whiskeytown Lake, Mono Lake, Christmas Rocks (Site of Gunga Din movie), Mt Tamalpais, Sequoia, The Pinnacles and Walker Pass where I was toting my Ruger .357 and Ithaca 37 12 Gauge, with which I dropped the chipmunk. That was a one-time survival hike and my two friends didn't eat that night.

[Brian Williams]

I am not is Griz country or a major dangerous game area, so I came up with this gun as my "wilderness gun". It will take care of most everything I might encounter in the woods around eastern PA and probably most of the contigous US.
It is a S&W 65 with a 4" pencil barrel. The 4" barrel gives a little more vel over a 3" and it weighs the same, along with being able to carry it and plenty of ammo, makes for an easier day than hauling around a 44 or 45 and larger ammo. It is also moonclipped.
http://thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=21910 http://thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=21911

[PowderBurn]

I started reading your post and immediately thought, "This guy needs a .480." Then I read that you are already familiar with that round. I don't see it as a wimp round at all; IMO, it's a very potent but shootable caliber. My local dealer didn't have one in the case when I looked a few weeks ago, but quoted me $589 for a brand-new 7-1/2". Still mulling it over, but it's bound to happen sooner rather than later.

[munk]

jcs271;
There is nothing that matches my fear of Grizzly unless it is a Calif variety of meth freak. If I had to be live in Grizzly woods, I would look at your own choices. I would guess the new 460 would be a sharper recoil than the 500.
Why do you say the 440 solids penetrate deeper than the 45/70? I'd think with some of the Garrett and other specialty rounds that would not be the case- but I'm not in the loop of developing 500 ballistics. I assume like every new round, some reports are overblown, some are reality.
I'm not saying I wouldn't like 5 rounds, (or 15 better still) ; but reports of Grizzly confrontations rarely seem to allow the shooter a lot of shots. The 500 would certainly make the most of one.

HPF- you've hiked the best.

I was hoping I'd learn something in this thread and have.

Does anyone remember the Grizzly killed by the Ranger many many years ago, as he tried to let the animal out of a cage and something went wrong? It's on film. He discharged his 357 into the skull.

munk

[steveno]

S & W M-57 41 mag with 4 inch barrel

[jcs271]

Yes the Garrett Super hard cast might edge it out, I have no experience with them but here is what I have tested on my own. While my target was not ballistic gellatin or wet paper it did offer extreme/consistent resistance to the shots. I had access to a 35 inch diameter section of Tamarack log that was about 3 feet long. So setting up a target on the end my friend and I shot Rem factory 45-70 405 gr (6 3/4 inch penetration),,,rem factory 450 marlin 400gr (10 inches penetration),, 450 marlin 400gr hard cast handload (13 inches penetration) ,,.454 325 gr hard cast handload (14 inches penetration),,.500 S&W 330 gr Ultramax factory loads (11 1/2 inches penetration). We split the log and recovered all bullets and carefully measured all of the channels. The 454 and 500 slugs could literally have been reloaded, there was almost no damage other than rifling marks Very impressive!

This was just a quick fun shoot but it did give us some idea of penetration/performance with a variety of rounds.

We were all shocked at the complete lack of performance in the factory 45-70. I know they light load but nobody guessed it was that bad!
The 454 was a standout, 325 gr LBT LFN 28gr H-110 beat them all but recoil was SHARP!
The 500 S&W 330 gr Ultramax rounds performed extremely well plus being 1/2 in diameter right out of the barrel. Recoil NOT as sharp as with the Cassul.

So, FOR ME the 500 (now loaded with cor bon 440gr) in a quality Double Action revolver is just about perfect for my particular needs. I am certain that I'll probably never get off that 4th or 5th shot in a crisis situation but the fact that they are there for last ditch double action CONTACT shots is comforting.
Be safe. JCS

[munk]

jcs271
Yes, Factory 45/70 fodder is both light and lightly constructed- the bullets are meant to expand at the lukewarm velocities. 1800 fps with the 300 gr is a Federal load and about as warm as any one gets until you go to proprietary company's like Garretts or load your own. It's been a while since I loaded my 45/70, but if I remember correctly a jacked 300 gr bullet can do 2200 fps out of the Marlin, and hardcast lead even more. I don't recall what happens with the 500 grain- the magazine/chamber OAL limits may slow the round down a bit. Certainly there are 400 grain solids which will outperform the Casul.


I believe the 500 Smith is pretty much a ballistic equal of the 45/70 in modern lever rifles. This loading does it with less pressure. A single shot 45/70 would walk away from the 500; the revolver round simply does not have the case capacity. The 45/70 also has the advantage of easier shooting.
How much does the Smith 500 4" weigh empty, and how much loaded?

We probaby won't live forever in Eastern Montana. Some of our future plans may include living in Grizzly country. Every year outside Cody Wy. there's an incident with a Hunter or horn shed gatherer.

I actually think the 480 Ruger with Hardcast would do very well. Certainly powerful enough for the penetration needed. I have 4 41's, a 45 Colt and a 44 mag. All of them loaded properly would be better than than a cell phone and the Sierra Club's wrist bracelet with a bell attached.

Nothing can compare to the Smith 500, not even he 475 or 50 Linebaugh, right? I wonder how the BFG does in 45/70?



munk

[roscoe]

Total novice mouthing off here, since I have never shot a bear, but I have noticed that some ammunition manufacturers seem to make some pretty hot loads for the .44. The Buffalo Bore .44 mag +p+ load doesn't give up much to the .454 at all, and beats the .480 and .50 AE by a fair margin, if the online info can be trusted. If this is true, I don't see why a 5" Redhawk might not be plenty, provided that you think any pistol is sufficient. I couldn't compare weights of handguns, but I can't imagine the Ruger weighs much more than the DE.

[cookekdjr]

I have rarely been to brown bear country and I've never shot one. Like every other person in the lower 48, though, I think about what gun I'd want with me about as often as little boys ask their daddies "what would happen if a whale and a lion got into a fight?" or "who is faster, superman or the flash?". ;) I guess little boys never grow up, huh?
From what I've read, bear attacks happen suddenly, usually without warning. Often the victim has a gun, but its not in arms reach, or they have a long gun and cannot raise it fast enough. Rarely do you read about a victim shooting a bear and still suffering a mauling (not saying it doesn't happen, but I am saying I've read plenty of accounts of brown bears being dispatched with .40's, .357's, and 9mm's).
1. So, the number one requirement is the gun must be light and compact enough that you will always have it with you. A 9mm in your hand beats a .454 in your tent or a 30-30 propped on a tree any day.
2. You must be able to draw and fire the gun quickly. Doesn't matter if you're disciplined enough to lug it around everywhere if it takes you 15-30 seconds to unholster it. Think "gunslinger".
3. Last is caliber selection. This is a distant 3rd in my opinion, and should only be considered after criteria 1 and 2 have been met. This is a very personal question. Bottom line, you must be able to hit what you're aiming at with this weapon. 5 hits from a 9mm beats 5 misses from a .454 every time.
However, if you can use something that fires a heavy hardcast or fmj bullet, do so. Heavy hard cast bullets from a .45 Colt Ruger Blackhawk, even at moderate velocities, will blow a hole through any animal in North Amercia (see this article for details on .45 colt pentration when compared to .458 Win. Mag): http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_158_26/ai_86704793
Do not use hp bullets for bear defense, stick w/fmj or hard cast. You may note in the above article that a .480 Ruger 325gr XTP round at 1,350fps has less than half the penetration of a .45 Colt 300gr SWC fired at 1,180 fps.
Anyway, like I said, I've never shot a brown bear. But even a passing look at newspaper accounts of bear attacks available online indicates the above criteria is important. Oh well. Back to my armchair.
D

[munk]

Roscoe; A comparitive loading of the 480 would beat the 44.

Cookekdjr <<<You may note in the above article that a .480 Ruger 325gr XTP round at 1,350fps has less than half the penetration of a .45 Colt 300gr SWC fired at 1,180 fps.>>>>>>

But a hardcast 480 would beat the Colt, and the XTP may be a good choice in alternative chambers with hardcast in every other one.

I agree a bird in hand beats one left in the bush, but cartridge selection is not number 3 in my own book. I'm not sure how much 'aim' is important, either. You will probably be encompassed by minute of bear.


munk

[SRYnidan]

Mag-Na-Port S&W 57 3"
Couger (Stainless Ruger Security 6 with 4" Colt Python Barrel)
S&W 63 4"
Looking into a Glock 20 in 10mm.

I grew up in Nothwestern MT nad the Dope farmers worry more than the bears.

[cookekdjr]

I agree a bird in hand beats one left in the bush, but cartridge selection is not number 3 in my own book. I'm not sure how much 'aim' is important, either. You will probably be encompassed by minute of bear.
Points taken. However, media reports are full of accounts where people were mauled (usually to death) because they had no gun. I haven't found any where they were killed because the gun they used in self defense was not up to the task. There are a number of reports of people using 9mm's, .40's, .357's, .44's, .45's, 10mm's, and other "regular-sized" handguns to successfully stop a bear attack. The common denominator for these survivors was having the gun readily available. The common denominator for the dead/horribly injured was that they did not have their weapon close enough at hand. One mauling victim was carrying a big bore hunting rifle in a sling on his shoulder. He could not position this large rifle to fire it in time. A lightweight pistol in a holster could have spared him from the attack.
By the way, if you can find a report of mauling where the victim used a handgun to defend themselves unsuccessfully, I'd like to see it.
Thanks,
David

[Vern Humphrey]

I'm 63 and have hiked most of the Appalachian Trail. Next month I will hike the Ozark Highlands Trail which runs from near Fort Smith to just north of Marshall -- about 170 trail miles, including an extention to reach Highway 65.

I live in the woods in the Ozarks, in an isolated area and I've faced down a Black bear (he was right outside my house) and seen cougars in this area.

There has been one bear attack on the OHT. David Gash of Wichita, KS, was attacked in his tent at Hare Mountain in 1990.The bear went after his pack at night, and bit him in the leg, and dragged him and the tent off about a hundred yards. He did not have a gun, and lay there for over an hour while the bear rummaged around his campsite.

I'll carry my Colt Detective Special but one of these days I'll get a Ruger SP 101 just for backpacking.

[munk]

cookekdjr;

Do you mean Grizzly bear attacks, Brown Bear attacks, and or Black bear attacks? This just reminded me of something- Grizzly attacks in the lower 48 are different than the attacks of the much larger coastal Brown.
I hope you are right about cartridge selection. Certainly, putting up a stiff defense has to be better than any of the Sierra Club alternatives. Lord, when I think of the bull---t they've advertised over the years; "a rattlesnake will rattle before he strikes, get to help and you'll be Ok, play dead with Bear and you'll be OK, only an mother and her cubs will attack, and Cougars rarely attack- it is you who invade their backyards, and there is no sense carrying arms as you'll never get to them in time as your neck will be broken. And, Black Bears won't attack "

Srynidan: Aint that the truth about Dope growers? This 'peaceful alternative lifestyle" on the business end is deadly. I used to worry when I hiked in Ca and when i went to School in Santa Cruz.

Vern Humphey; there have been predation attacks by crazies on the trails you mention. Black bears do attack.

Like most here, my opinons on these matters is formed by reading expert and first hand reports.

munk


munk

[cookekdjr]

Hi Munk,
I am referring to grizzly and other brown bear attacks (such as Kodiaks). Almost all the accounts I've read about took place in Alaska and involved a type of brown bear, not black bears. I've been pretty surprised at the success of 9mms and .40's. I've looked for cases where the victim shot the bear with a handgun, but was still killed or injured, but I haven't found any yet. I did find a case in Oregon where the hunter drew his 1911 as the bear charged, but the bear was so fast he could not get off a shot. Somehow his buddy got the bear to leave and the man survived.
From what I've read, a Glock 22 or 23 (lightweight and high capacity) with .40 cal fmj's would be a decent choice. Lightweight so you'll always carry it, and makes a big hole. Many would point out that sometimes you can only get off one shot, so a more powerful revolver might be appropriate. Of course, that's only the case if you'll be sure to carry it...

[munk]

Cookekdjr;

Yes, you and I have both wondered what good a handcannon is if it is left behind as too unwieldy to carry.

I tried looking at some Smith 500 stats to see what the field was offering. Like a lot of you, I've got gunmags flopped into enormous piles, and I was only able to find a couple articles.

Here's Shooting Times, Dick Metcalf, March 2005 on the 460:

Corbon 300 gr Precision cast, BC gap .002, 8.5" barrel, gun weight 73 oz
1794fps
395 Cobon Precision cast; 1540 fps


Here's Stan Skinner, Guns n Ammo, Aug 2004 on the Smith 500,
He infers the Cobon factory 440 gr clocked faster than advertised 16oo fps
Hornady 350 gr 1715 fps
Sierra 400 gr 1687 fps

In both guns I see no greater ballistics than the 45/70 as loaded for modern levers, and actually, moderately/considerably less.

I tried to find Metcalf's recent report on the Short Barrel 500- as it is the one chosen for better portability by those living around the Bears. The velocity can only be less.

A 44 mag with a 300 gr solid at plus 1200 fps has got to do something. Ditto the 45 Colt with slightly more, the 41 with a 250 at almost 1300, and the Ruger 480 with a 350 above 1300 fps.

When I talked about a big bore revolver with moderate velocity, I was talking about the standard mags compared to rifles. Even when the gun's are much bigger and the cartridges huge, they are still not quite 45/70s or other rifles.

Man, if the Smith 500 could be put into a light, fast handling semi auto carbine. Course, would anyone want to pull it to their cheek bone and pull the trigger?



munk

[Vern Humphrey]

Quote:
--------------------------
Vern Humphey; there have been predation attacks by crazies on the trails you mention. Black bears do attack.
---------------------------

I'm a lot more concerned about two-legged predators than I am about bears. But I think my Dick Special in a belt pouch will be adequate, whatever I run into.

[munk]

The great division in the Wilderness Gun is between the Bear prevention crowd and those who chose a firearm without that as a main issue.

The .38 is a fine calibre for general carrying and game getting.



munk

[Vern Humphrey]

Phil Shoemaker, who probably knows as much about big bears as anyone alive, recommends a .357 -- albeit with a heavy cast bullet, which would call for a heavier revolver than the SP 101.

[jcs271]

Well this has been fun but I think we have about beaten it to death. The bottom line is roughly as follows....

The grizzly attack if it comes will be fast and furious from very close!

The firearm must be immediately accessible ON YOUR BODY at all times (probably not slung on shoulder so it kinda rules out rifles).

Any firearm beats throwing rocks

It should be loaded with hard cast or fmj slugs for deep (bone) penetration.

It should be a system you are VERY familiar with (auto, DA or SA)

You should be sighted dead on at 10 yrds (its not a hunting pistol)

It should be capable of repeated CONTACT shots (might rule out autos)

It should be operable with one hand if necessary (DA shines here)

It ideally will be the heaviest caliber you can confidently handle


Happily this is all just fun theoretical banter because none of us will probably ever even see a griz but somewhere, someone will and lets hope that he has given his equipment as much thought as we all have.

Well I gotta go,,the dogs are barking like crazy at something out behind the barn..................

[sharpie613]

My grandfather had a book all about bear attacks. A cursory search of Amazon and Google revealed nothing, but maybe I have the title wrong.
Alaskan Bear Tales. Anyone? Regardless, it was full of anecdotes about bears and a bunch of fatal encounters. It convinced me to this day that if I have to go to Bear Country, that 00 buck is my best friend. The story of the bear skull they found with 5 .357 slugs stuck in it is particularly chilling. The slugs were stuck in such a way that the shooter would have had to have been underneath the bear. :eek:

That being said, I'd carry either a .357 revolver or a 9mm double stack with JHP if I wasn't going to Bear Country. True, that .44 mag may make a big hole if it hits, but if it misses, it's just going to be a big hole in the ground. I can rip off 9mm almost as fast as I want, and in "Holy :cuss:" mode, that's what I'm going to do. I don't have to kill the critter, just convince it that these aren't the droids it's looking for and to move along. ;)

[Joey2]

Elmer Keith was asked if he could only have one gun what would it be. He said that he would pick what he always carries- S&W .44mag. I believe a model 65?

He said he could shoot from birdshot on up.

I tend to agree, but I don't own a .44 yet. Right now I'll make do with my S&W Mdl. 19 or my Ruger Security Six, both with 6" bbl's.

[trickyasafox]

im not in bear country, but for where i travel i dont think a 357 mag can be beat

[munk]

Vern Humphrey; Why no heavy hardcast in the Ruger Sp101? Chambers too short for a long OAL with a 180 gr hardcast? Fortunately, there are many 357's around with ample frame size.


munk

[Vern Humphrey]

I don't have my daughter's SP 101 here to measure, but you may be right that the chambers are too short to take a 180-grain bullet (which is what Shoemaker recommends.)

What I had in mind was recoil, which would negate one of his criteria (that the gun be capable of fast follow up shots) and would also change point of impact (this being a fixed sight gun.)

I'd take my Colt M357 if I needed a 180 grain bullet at a max load.

[munk]

Smith's 8 shot N frame 357 would be good.


munk

[Vern Humphrey]

Quote:
--------------------------
Smith's 8 shot N frame 357 would be good.
--------------------------

A long time ago, Savage had a motto for their automatic pistol, "Ten Shots Quick."

They tried to get Uncle Billy Tilghman (Oklahoma's Marshall of the Last Frontier) to carry one, as an endorsement. He asked why, and they explained about Ten Shots Quick.

Uncle Billy thought it over and said, "It's been my experience, if you can't do it with six, you can't do it." :p

[munk]

I noticed Clint Eastwood's character- the retired FBI guy with a murder victim's heart- carried the N Frame 8 shot 357. I thought that a nice touch- sort of full circle for the law enforcement types he's portrayed.



munk

[Sir Aardvark]

First off, be the one in the middle of the group - that way, when the bear suddenly attacks from nowhere, it will target someone else in the front or back of the group.

All kidding aside, check out the 3" S&W Model 629's on this page:

http://www.firearms.smith-wesson.com/store/index.php3?cat=293546&sw_activeTab=1

The last 2 on the page are the Model 629 "Trail Boss" - they are ported, so shooting full power .44 mag rounds is easier on the shooter. Hard cast bullets out of these would be devasting to any North American, land-walking mammal.

I own 2 S&W 629's. One of them has a 6" barrel and it can sometimes hurt to shoot full power magnums through it. The other one is the "Trail Boss" and the porting reduces recoil almost by half.

For the more adventurist amongst us, there is always the lightweight S&W Model 329PD in Scandium/Titanium:

http://www.firearms.smith-wesson.com/store/index.php3?cat=293482&sw_activeTab=1

I've never shot one, but if the recoil is anything like a S&W 340PD (.357 mag), then it's going to hurt!. But.....it's lightweight.

[Lennyjoe]

Currently I carry a S&W 1006 loaded with 180gr Hornady XTP ammo but I'm not in a high threat area for bear. Only the 2 legged coyotes.

If I was living in an area up North with grizzlies I think I would be taking a long hard look at the recently introduced "Alaskan" in .454 Casull.

[TallPine]

My normal carry in black bear country used to be a 4" Sec Six in 357mag. Then I got a Vaquero in 45 colt (able to handle the high pressure loads) for occasional trips to grizzly country (and just because I wanted it ;) ). In retrospect, I sorta wish I had just gotten a Blackhawk instead since the Vaqueros really aren't (or weren't) a SAA colt clone.

Since we moved out into the pineywood hills, I haven't been out on the NF much (no need to, really ;) ). Around here (and around the house) I just carry the 357 for general protection since we rarely see bears. But if I go out on the NF again, I will carry the Vaquero "just because" ... and some of those black bears can get really big!

The one time we camped in western MT (Big Hole area), a couple of Rangerettes (cute, too ;) ) stopped by to warn us that there were grizzlies active in the area. I said that we were aware of being in grizzly country and were watching out, but I didn't point out the 45 under my untucked wool shirt :D

IMO, the best "bear" handgun is the one that you are comfortable with, providing it is at least a 44 magnum or equivalent. It's just another chance anyway - if attacked, you may not have time to even draw and fire a shot, or you might have time to fire a warning shot into the ground and save both yourself and the bear. I am starting to think that a DA might be better than a SA revolver, just because you can find thumbreak holsters for a DA.

A short barreled rifle or shotgun is still the best, as long as it is in your hands. But a handgun will (or can) be with you when you are cooking over a fire, setting up a tent, etc ...

FYI, I have seen lots of black bears in the wild and have never even been threatened. But they are dangerous predators and not cuddly pets. It only takes one bear to eat you and ruin your whole day. Bears' hearing and eyesight are not that extraordinary, and I have both accidently and deliberately gotten pretty close to black bears. My grizzly experience is limited to following fresh dinner-plate sized tracks down a trail through an alder thicket on a back-packing trip in Alaska :what: (was carrying a shotgun on that excursion)

[munk]

The new Vaqueros will be smaller, right? This means less pressure for the warmed up Colt, I'm thinking. That older Vaquero you got is easy to pull with its smoothed frame edges, points nice, handles the same pressures as the reg Blkhk, and is a good thing.

munk

[JNewell]

recommends a .357 -- albeit with a heavy cast bullet, which would call for a heavier revolver than the SP 101

What I had in mind was recoil, which would negate one of his criteria (that the gun be capable of fast follow up shots) and would also change point of impact (this being a fixed sight gun.)

I spent some time last fall working on heavy 180 gr loads in a M66 and a Security Six and I am here to tell you that Vern has his finger on a real issue. These guns weigh roughly 32-33 ounces; the ~2" SP101 (which I own one of also) weighs 24 ounces, if I recall correctly.

I don't think of myself as recoil-sensitive. On the one hand, I fire heavy .44 Mag and .454 Casull loads and don't mind them. On the other, I shoot the Al/Ti S&W J frames. I have not shot anything, though, that recoiled as much or felt as punishing as those heavy 180 gr loads in the K-Frame/SS. I would not care to fire them in a revolver that was almost half a pound lighter...but, as they say, YMMV.

[s&w 24]

another vote for 357. Most people can't shoot a big bore revolver quickly and accuratly and if you do it's practice that makes it happen and 38 spec is just the thing for high volume practice. Also Phil Shoemaker and Ross Sefried have carried 357's for there back woods guns and they have shot more wild game than most of the members of this forum by a bit.

However If one must have a DA bigbore a 44 mag will suit most pistolero's better than a 480 or larger and you would not be under gunned in any way IF you put your bullets were they count.

[munk]

The thing about a 180 gr 357 mag is you have decent math on it for a handgun round- Sectional density. So at the relatively moderate velocities you'd get good penetration. Probably a deal where it performs better than it's energy rating would suggest. There are lots of cartridge/bullet combos that do.


munk

[Vern Humphrey]

Quote:
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another vote for 357. Most people can't shoot a big bore revolver quickly and accuratly and if you do it's practice that makes it happen and 38 spec is just the thing for high volume practice. Also Phil Shoemaker and Ross Sefried have carried 357's for there back woods guns and they have shot more wild game than most of the members of this forum by a bit.
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Amen, and amen. My "big" revolvers are .45 Colts. The Ruger Blackhawk is not what you'd choose for rapid fire. The Colt New Service -- with my standard 255 grain bullet at 1,000 fps -- is simply uncontrolable in double action (for me, anyway.) I can get off a second shot faster by cocking and shooting single action.

Quote:
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The thing about a 180 gr 357 mag is you have decent math on it for a handgun round- Sectional density. So at the relatively moderate velocities you'd get good penetration. Probably a deal where it performs better than it's energy rating would suggest. There are lots of cartridge/bullet combos that do.
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I've cast and shot 180 grain loads in my Colt M357. With a stiff charge of H110, I can get nearly 1300 fps -- and I have no doubt that bullet (heat treated, of course) will go through any critter I point it at.

[Camp Cook]

I have been working in the bush for several years now and I'm licenced to carry handguns for protection. Just this last year I was within 50 yards of over 70 black bears, the closest being less then 10 yards away.

The smallest caliber that I carry is 10mm in either a Colt Delta Elite with a 6" Barsto barrel or a Glock 20 with a 5" KKM barrel. The loads that I carry are 190gr Sierra FPJ or 200gr Hornady XTP's @ app. 1300fps. I find that I started to only carry the 10mm's during the winter month's when the big bears where sleeping or when I'm jumping in and out of my truck all day.

I also have 2 s/s Ruger Bisley Vaquero's in 45 Colt that I carry when I went into areas that had big blacks or grizzlies(only one gun at a time). My 45 Colt carry loads are 300gr XTP's or 330gr Jae-Bok Young hard cast bullets @ app. 1300fps. I never felt to comfortable carrying the Bisley's because they are single actions and if I ever had to reload the gun I would never be able to reload the it fast enough.

Which is why I now carry a 7.5" Ruger SRH in 454 Casull most of the time now. My carry loads are either 240gr XTP/MAG's @ 1900fps, 300gr XTP'MAG's, 300gr Gold Dot's or 330gr Jae-Bok Young's hard casts @ 1600fps when I'm in black bear country. When I'm in grizzly country I don't mess around I load 360gr Cast Performance hard cast bullets @ 1520fps or 395gr C/P hard casts @ 1420fps.

I have never had to shoot a bear in defense yet but if I have to it is going to be with the most powerful handgun/load that I can shoot fast.

Which brings me to this practice, practice, practice.............

I not only do draw and dry fire drills but I do alot of draw and live fire drills as well. I practice with my day pack or back pack on as well. I also practice shooting with both hands or one handed. Try shooting a 454 with your weak hand :what: "WOW" :what: what an experience........

[munk]

Camp Cook; If you live in BC, how is it you can carry a handgun at all?

Also, did you stumble across a Black Bear Convention, that there were 70 bears there?

I have a Colt Delta Elite I'm very fond of.




munk

[bobby68]

"who is faster, superman or the flash?"

My brother and I solved this a long time ago... The flash is faster. Superman is only faster than a speeding bullet.

[munk]

This was a real problem in the DC universe; they gave Superman so much he could do everything other super hero's could- the Martian whatever- was supposed to be his equal but had one weakness which made him inferior to Superman. I hardly can see why they tolerated Wonder Woman. Good to look at.

About this time the Flash was a little faster, and had more finese. I remember Superman VS Batman, too.




munk

[Mannlicher]

I live in South Florida. I hike in the Everglades, over in the Big Cyprus area, and I hike up in North Florida, in some of the National Forrests. I really don't worry about bears, or large cats, though were are a few of both. Snakes, are more of a worry, and for that reason, I often packed the old S&W model 34 .22/32 kit gun.
Time was, when snakes, or Gators were the worst things you could run up against, but over the past few years, two legged critters are more of a threat. Most of this is due to Marijuana growing. For that reason, I am more likely to pack a BHP .40 cal, or a .45 Commander, than the .22

[wanderinwalker]

I'm thinking a 4" .44 Magnum 629, Mountain Gun format would be perfect. I have a 6" 629-1 in the standard bull-barrel, and I find I can fire it fast enough in "panic" DA mode at the range that it might get scary if I was frightened! ;) Though around here, a .357 would be adequate, I suspect, but I just prefer bigger bores. (And no, I do not nor will I ever consider a .357 Magnum a "big-bore" revolver!)