[Robertesq1]

Go to MSN and then Click on the Vote URL (in red) and cast your Vote:


Story
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7130397/?GT1=6305


Poll
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7131791/

[Ol' Badger]

Hmmm Feral Cats.

[yorec]

Should hunters be allowed to shoot feral cats? * 8495 responses
Yes 44%
No 54%
Not sure 2%


I voted.

[sturmruger]

I think this guy is a genius, feral cats are a real problem here in WI. Many of these cats were dropped off in the country by stupid city folk. I always shot them when I saw wild cats around our house.

[HankB]

Yes.

And if it's running around loose, off the owner's property, it should be regarded as feral.

[ChiefAutoParts]

Of course they should be legal to hunt. They are a legitimate predator and really take their toll on songbirds, upland game, and waterfowl eggs and birds. If people don;t want to keep their cats any more, the last thing they ought ot do is drop them off in the wild so they become someone else's problem. That is what is unethical and inhumane about the whole thing. All the feral cats I've shot have dropped in their tracks and not even known what's hit them because they didn't feel a thing. Now that's what I call humane. Putting these miserable creatures out of their miserey is one of the most humane things we can do. Neutering and releasing them back in to the "wild" is not helping the problem; they still need to eat and are still problems because they shouldn't be where they are. I own cats and just becaues I own them doesn't mean that I love cats. Mine are fine, but these feral cats need to be dealt with and are very problematic. They should be legal to shoot under certain conditions. Just don't want the "anit's" to have anything to say when somebody's housecat/pet gets plugged. Cat owners just need to be responsible if they are going to have cats. Just my 2cents' worth.

[Art Eatman]

Legal, my left hind foot! It oughta be mandatory!

Art

[Art Eatman]

Add: I went to the "don't shoot the cat" website. I've sent them two emails. The first detailed personal observations about feral cats in general and all that obvious stuff.

The second spoke to their questioning of the accuracy of the study, giving some details of direct experience around my wife's home in rural south Georgia.

Datum: The local animal shelter folks did a live trapping effort in an area of roughly a mile radius near my wife's house. In about two months, they caught 72 feral cats. Expand that into all of rural Georgia, and the Wisconsin estimate of around a million feral cats is in no way unreasonable.

The estimate of 100 songbirds per year per cat means two songbirds per week. This does not strike me as unreasonable.

In the FWIW department, I occasionally run across articles from the world of birding about a general decline in the numbers of observed songbirds. IMO, feral cats are contributory, along with habitat loss and such oddities as bird strikes on the various communications towers around the country...

Art

[Zeke Menuar]

Time to get some practice in

http://www.richsalter.btinternet.co.uk/cks2/index.html

I spent many summers with a Winchester M62 and 22 shorts shooting birds out of the cherry trees. The feral cats would show up looking for a free meal. In one day I think I shot close to 20. As far as I am concerned they are a huge problem and should be shot whenever encountered.

ZM

[Smoke]

It is legal in my neighborhood.

One might even go so far as to say "expected"

Smoke

[El Tejon]

Should be legal to shoot all critters. Poison, as I have seen firsthand, has far too many unintended consequences. By killing them via gunfire you can select your target. :)

[Shalako]

Well, what else are you supposed to do with them?

Feral cats are a problem created by humans. It would be irresponsible to let the problem go unattended. That would be like the Superfund site of ecological dynamics.

So what else are you supposed to do with them? Club, stab, dash, or what? Trap them, and then what? Euthanize? Give me a break!

It's just that shooting is kind of satisfying and thats bad for the ultimate goal of progressive civility.

[JohnKSa]

Don't know of many places where it's not legal to kill feral cats.

[one-shot-one]

what hankb said!

[unreal45]

I bust em when they come to my predator call.

[HankB]

Yet another reason cats are bad . . . :neener:

BATES TOWNSHIP, Mich. (AP) - A man cooking in his kitchen was shot after one of his cats knocked his 9mm handgun onto the floor, discharging the weapon, Michigan State Police said.

Joseph Stanton, 29, of Bates Township in Iron County, was shot in his lower torso around 6 p.m. Tuesday, the state police post in Iron River reported. He was transported to Iron County Community Hospital.

Michelle Sand, a spokeswoman at the Iron River hospital, said Stanton was treated there before being transferred to Marquette General Hospital for further treatment. But Marcie Miller, a representative of the Marquette facility, said there was no record of the hospital receiving a patient by that name.

A telephone message seeking comment was left Wednesday at Stanton's home.

State police said he was cooking at his stove when the cat knocked the loaded gun off the kitchen counter behind him.

[Mannlicher]

I have always felt that feral cats were a curse on small game and birds. I have taken every chance possible, to reduce the population of feral cats, for the past 40 years or so. Pet cat, feral cat, they are fair game for me if on my property, or anywhere else I can get a shot at one. Course, I don't much like cats to start with. :)

[EghtySx]

Add: I went to the "don't shoot the cat" website. I've sent them two emails. The first detailed personal observations about feral cats in general and all that obvious stuff.

Heh, I e-mailed em too. Called em a buncha women and asked em to go bleed all over someone else. Ya, I was always the kid that had to poke the rattlesnake with a stick.

I don't get some yankees. Some of the men up there wouldn't make half of one of our women. I am convinced that these people only survive because others look out for them. Some are highly educated and don't have enough common sense to pour piss out of a boot with directions on both ends. Nothing wrong with it except that these are the people who want to make rules for others with whom they have absolutely nothing in common. The Constitution was written to give most all power to the states because someone in New England has no idea what life is like in Texas so how the hell can they tell us what is best for us?

Wow, I got a little off topic there. Sorry. I'm gonna go mow the yard or something.

[DFBonnett]

Each year I shoot at least two dozen feral cats. They wreak havoc on the turkey poults on my land upstate. I don't particularly like killing anything I don't eat but the population would be out of control if I didn't. They not only kill and eat the poults but also the red salamanders that are part of the turkey's diet.

[Pumpkinheaver]

Legal or not they would get dropped on my ground.

[thorn726]

WOW. again (posted in the other thread) can't believe how many cats you guys nail!!
woo hoo! if there are this many roaming around, have at them.
i will say though, a photo worthy prize??
it makes me laugh a little, but looking at my kitty here, that is a pretty sick one.
shooting ferals bugging you is one thing, hunting them down as sport, ugh.
id treat them as any other pests- you kill roaches, but you dont go out looking for them.

[k47k]

If the cats are truly wild, i saw fire away!

The problem is someone is going to shoot someones house cat, which isnt cool. I agree if you own an animal, you should make sure it stays on your property and wears a collar. We all know there are instances where a pet might escape and have no collar on.

Scenario 1:

You are giving your cat a bath, naturally you take the collar off. The cat flips out and jumps out the window and runs away (cats dont like baths). Buba is sitting next door just looking to blast a cat with no collar. Here comes "snowball" all wet, no collar. BOOM!! bye bye snow ball. Chances are You are going to go ballistic. Someone killing your pet is not cool.

We all know there are jackasses with no common sense that are goign to be blasting away at anything resembling a cat.

I voted yes on the poll. just try not to shoot the neighbors pet.

[Art Eatman]

By and large, folks aren't shooting feral cats where other folks' house pet cats are likely to be. Generally, house pet cats stay fairly close to home. They're not gonna be way off in some farmer's or rancher's land--and if they are, they're hunting and shame on'em.

I had to deal with the stray cat/dog thing for several years, when a subdivision began development next to my 230 acres outside of Austin, Texas. I worked with the kids there, so they could pass the word to their parents: Dogs with collars, okay; no problem. Cats in my pasture? Big mistake. I rated "my" quail above stray cats. All in all, though, the subdivision folks worked with me okay. The tradeoff was that I taught their kids about outdoor stuff.

Never let common sense go on vacation...

:), Art

[Greymoor]

If you know it is feral then have at it. I have had to remove 15 feral cats from my mom's property. We managed to live trap a couple but the rest got wise to that so we had to shoot the rest. A nasty bit of work that took 3 weeks to finish. However some people tend to think that it would be a green light to shoot any cat they see. It I found my collared daughters cat blasted in half by some fool we would have a severe problem in the works. I would hate to see a headline where a bubba was dropped for shooting someones pet.


Some of these ignorant folks would think it was fun to shoot at any cat.

"Yup lookie there Jim Bob looks like a feral cat"

"Gosh darn you must be right Ernie he musta found that there that collar in da trash"

BLAM BLAM

"Hehe chunky salsa Jim Bob but what we gonna shoot now"

"well lookie there Ernie that lady is being followed by that there feral dog on a rope. It's sneaking up on her we better blast it."

I have had the misfortune to have been out in the wood hunting with people who shoot just about anything that comes along. Then turn around and make some asinine excuse why that porcupine had to go, or why that racoon was a menace to the forest. Heaven help if a coyote was to show up. I do not associate with them any more.

Killing for killing sake is the sign of a sick mind . . .

[JohnKSa]

People who care about their pets should do everything in their power to protect them. Coyotes, feral dogs, other cats and cars do not care how a cat ended up in their path without a collar, and neither do I.

Years ago, my father tired of being overrun by cats and began trapping them with a havahart trap and turning them over to animal control.

He kept track of how many he trapped for a short period but finally gave up. Sometimes he would catch a couple in a single night using only one trap (he had a separate holding container) and in one case, IIRC, he even got two in the trap at once. In all that time and after trapping literally hundreds of cats he caught maybe one or two cats with collars on--and this was in one of the larger suburbs of Dallas--not out in the country.

greymoor,

Killing simply for killing's sake may not be a good thing, but in the case of feral cats it accomplishes a desirable goal. ;)

[LeonCarr]

Three words:

twenty two short

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

[Greymoor]

Heya John,

I have no problem with taking out problem animals. The cats we had to remove were as wild as could be. About 50 feet was as close as we could get to them. We tried several different methods of trapping them but only managed to get about a third of them. The rest we had to shoot and the last few were sneaky as could be avoiding us. I am talking about people who blast at any cat because it is on their property. Cats are roamers it's what they do.

A couple years ago my Dad's neighbors pigs got loose and wandered into my Dad's yard. The amout of damage those 2 pigs did over night was impressive. The yard looked like it had been plowed in spots all over the place. We did not shoot the pigs. I can say the though crossed our minds after seeing the damage they did. We herded them back to the owners place. This same owner has had a horse, cow, 2 pigs, and 3 geese wander our way in the last 5 years. Sometimes it's the owner who need the corrective action. :D

[Matt G]

Where ARE you people?!? :confused:
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=22733

If the question had been vaguely asked as "should we shoot housecats", I'd have said "No." But this about feral cats I've seen thriving quail populations decimated yearly unto local extinction by feral cats. I've seen beloved family pets (including my own cats) get sent for treatment to vets again and again by ravages from lustful or hungry feral cats. I've seen populations explode because no one takes responsibility to neuter them. Feral cats eat untold millions of songbirds and other, non-introduced wildlife every year. It's utterly amazing to me that there are people that are okay with hunting in general, but are against doing away with the dangerous man-introduced predatory pest that is the feral housecat.

Note: I advocate shooting ONLY those cats verified to be wild and unowned. I advocate using good ethics (i.e., clean kills) for killing feral cats.

[jerryd]

Nothing against orientals, but here in CT in the late 70s, there was a hugh influx of Cambodians, and Vietnamese and within 1 year there were no stray cats and dogs to be found! Maybe thats the way to go! :what: :what:

[Fumbler]

You mean Asians?

[JohnKSa]

Cats are roamers it's what they do.I hear you, and if they were native, that would mean something to me. As non-native animals, they are, IMO like starlings and feral hogs, to be exterminated on sight.

Pets are one thing, and I wouldn't shoot a neighbor's pet simply for trespassing on my property. However, I don't think that's a neighborly thing for them to let happen.

I don't let my pets roam on my neighbor's property, and although it would be nice if they had the same respect for me, I'm not going to shoot their pet to show them the error of their ways. On the other hand, if I don't know who the animal belongs to, it's too far from home and its luck has probably just run out.

FWIW, I have a cat, but it is a pet so I keep it inside where it will be safe.

[Art Eatman]

I voted, not that I care about the results. Let those folks worry about Wisconsin; I'll worry about the 50,000 or so acres in my own little playground.

Red mist rules!

:D, Art

[DSRUPTV]

I have been eyeing two cats that come around my house on a regular basis to determine if they are indeed feral or pets. Seems to me that since I can't even pull into my drive way without them bolting they are probably feral. I left a trash bag in the back of my truck overnight about a month ago, and the next morning I had trash all over the bed and even some on the ground around the truck. As soon as I get a shot there will be two less problems.

[Mannlicher]

Thorn726 says"shooting ferals bugging you is one thing, hunting them down as sport, ugh.
id treat them as any other pests- you kill roaches, but you dont go out looking for them."

I hunt Bobcats. I hunt Coyotes, and I hunt cats. They are all preditors, and they are all 'fair game'. And yes, I have killed a lot of them.

[trickyasafox]

someone said if they were native i'd be with you. . . lol i know its apples to oranges but unless your native american your not exactly native either :p i like cats. i own cats, that being said, i've shot exactly 1 cat in my life, and it was my pet after it got hit by a car. ferel cats are a big problem, and i have no problems with keeping that population under control, but as far as my personal tastes go, the person who made the cockroach statement said it best. ill take em if absolutely necessary, but im not gonna be lookin to get em. . . :)

[JohnKSa]

your not exactly native eitherI'm not exactly feral either. I don't kill native protected wildlife, crap in my neighbor's flowerbeds, spray his hubcaps, spread diseases or parasites to his pets, impregnate his cats, keep him up at night while impregnating his cats, or bite and claw his pets.

Furthermore, while not native, I am a member of a protected species. ;)

[Silent-Snail]

I realize my opinion is pretty much debased currency around here, but I seem to recall that this is how Dingos and rabbits maybe, got to be a big problem in Australia. Although it has been a while since I've heard anything so the problem might be under control. I doubt it.

[redneck]

Anyone else wondering how the results would turn out if it wasn't listed under the "pets" section?

[Art Eatman]

SFAIK, the dingo is native to Australia. The rabbits were imported (For sport hunting? I don't really remember.) and it was found out too late that there weren't enough predators or hunters to control the numbers.

redneck, I imagine the "emotionalists" envision hordes of gunners walking the streets of cities and towns, shooting every pet cat they see. An awful lot of, "My mind is made up! Don't try to confuse me with facts!"

:), Art

[SRYnidan]

I am no lover of cats at the best of times but I would never knowingly shoot a neighbors pet (the first time). Cats may be roamers by nature but that does not mean I have to put up with them on my property.

I spent a good part of my youth in Germany where hunters take their hunting seriously (and pay heavily for the privilege). Law any cat or dog in the wild more than 100 meters from the nearest residence (hunting breed dogs excepted) is fair game and dealt with accordingly.

Feral cats and dogs are a real threat to wildlife and pets. Dogs are a threat to human life. If you have a pet you are responsible for both its whereabouts and actions. If the pet is no longer wanted / needed it should be taken to a shelter or dealt with, not dumped for someone else to deal with.

[bosshoff]

I remember reading a story about an Aussie who had a dream job. He was a cat killer extrodanaire! He camped out for months on the Galapaogos Islands and shot and killed cats all day long. :) Seems they were desimating the bird population.

[BlackCat]

You mean Asians?
:confused:

Asian
Pronunciation: 'A-zh&n also -sh&n
Function: adjective
of, relating to, or characteristic of the continent of Asia or its people

ori·en·tal
Pronunciation: "or-E-'en-t&l
Function: adjective
of, relating to, or situated in Asia
---------------------------------------------------
Now
Shot placement is crucial on any animal you're going to shoot if you're to expect a clean, humane kill. Where does everyone recommend whacking a meow anyway? It will most likely (ideally) be with a .22LR.

I hate to think what kinda mess I'd have to clean up if I use the '06, and I've already seen the carnage cause by an abdominal shot with a 12 gauge at a couple paces.

I don't relish the idea of killing any cat, but there's a black tom hanging around, fighting with my tame, neutered, friendly, ex-house cat, everyday, eating his food, etc. I feel the only way to deal with this problem would be violence by way of the gun. Poision won't work in this situation for obvious reasons.
Being new to this cat shooting (never done one) I was just wondering where's the best place to be aiming, head shot, or boiler room?

[deciple-of-keith]

I realize my opinion is pretty much debased currency around here, but I seem to recall that this is how Dingos and rabbits maybe, got to be a big problem in Australia. Although it has been a while since I've heard anything so the problem might be under control. I doubt it.
__________________
The rabbit problem is well and truly under control thanks to the carlisi virus which wiped out rabbits (& pro rabbit shooters) over a couple of months & dingos are no where near the numbers that there used to be . Thanks to baiting trapping and shooting everyone of the sheep killing bastards we see. (mind you I was going to keep one for a pet ! I was going to call it Lyndie & feed it a small child on the odd occastion :what: ) The dingo is not a true Native of AUZ they came across with the first Settlers about 60,000 yrs ago . :D

[pete f]

why should it even be a question, they are exotic predators in the environment, we should be paid to thin them out. just as the Sea Lamprey was and is a exotic predator in the great lakes, so is the house cat when allowed to go feral. We used to shoot many many on our old farm, the new farm seems to have far fewer of them.

[halvey]

37% yes
61% no
:cuss:

Do these morons even know what feral means?

[Dale Taylor]

The sentiments of you shooters make me ashamed to visit. You all need strict gun control. SHAME

[auschip]

The sentiments of you shooters make me ashamed to visit. You all need strict gun control. SHAME

Again, a big difference between feral and pets. :banghead:

[pete f]

yes we are not talking about popping "Smokie" from next door, we are talking about raised in the wild or released into the wild feral animals.

[JohnKSa]

The sentiments of you shooters make me ashamed to visit.In that case, you have my personal permission to stop visiting. ;)

Seriously, being a shooter has nothing to do with this topic. Understanding the effects of non-native, feral species on the environment and on pets does.

Being able to objectively evaluate a difficult situation without being overcome with emotion and sentiment also has a lot to do with it.

I suggest that you go back to your Disney-reality and rest assured in the knowledge that there are thinking people ready to take responsibility for solving the problems caused by the irresponsibility of others.

[Art Eatman]

For Dale Taylor: As a Floridian, you're possibly aware of a species of burrowing owl there, that's on the endangered species list? IIRC, they're found around the campus of the Univ. of South Florida and a few other places.

The numbers are/were being depleted by feral cats.

Various authorities were trying methods of reducing the problem, including both live trapping (with the usually-needed euthanasia) and shooting.

Apparently the cats are far more important to the local-area people than are an endangered species, given the number of highly-vocal protest meetings against disturbing Poor PooTat.

But that's the American Way: Perception is more important than reality. Apparently, the perception is that cats don't hunt, and all cats live in nice homes with loving owners--except when they accidentally get outdoors and spend all their time smelling flowers.

Art

[Dale Taylor]

Mr. Eatman I respect you for using your real name instead of an alias. However apparently 60% agree with not hunting the cats. I have a small farm. Cats that wander in, or are dropped off, are spayed or neutered. I adopt them out or feed them. The neighbor boys who come on my land and kill the owls are bird's biggest problem. daleltaylor@attt.net

[MR.G]

If it were not for the stray cats around here we would have a huge citrus rat problem. We have a lot of citrus trees that attract large citrus rats. The rats get into the houses and do a lot of damage. The cat population does a good job eliminating the rat problem. I prefer the cats to the rats.We do have a problem with stray dogs, which have to be done away with. A lot of people have just let their dogs run loose. Several kids in the neighborhood have been attacked and bitten by loose dogs. One bit me last year while I was taking a walk near my property. Stray dogs are more dangerous than a little cat, and should be shot.

[Dale Taylor]

Mr. G I live amongst acres of Florida citrus. I have not seeen a rat thanks to my 6 cat. All sterilized and vet checked and immunized. daleltaylor@att.net

[auschip]

Mr. G I live amongst acres of Florida citrus. I have not seeen a rat thanks to my 6 cat. All sterilized and vet checked and immunized. daleltaylor@att.net


So, your pet cats referenced aboce wouldn't be hunted. The feral cats that pass diseases on to your 6 pet cats as well as potentially harming them in territorial fighting would be fair game. You want to be able to protect your pets, don't you?

Chip Clark :cool:

[larry starling]

I hate cats dont need a reason to want to get rid of them! :rolleyes:

[JohnKSa]

However apparently 60% agree with not hunting the cats.First of all, let me congratulate you on overcoming your shame and visiting again.

Second, what makes you certain that Art Eatman is Art's real name? ;)

Third, the majority is often wrong--siding with the majority, therefore, is not any sort of indication of morality or a valid justification for pursuing a particular course of action. In this case, it's highly probable that only 1 in 10 persons responding to that poll have any idea what this law is actually about, or what current laws say about killing feral animals.

Fourthly, if you have cats and owls on your property, it's hardly likely that the cats who are there all the time are doing less damage to the owls than occasional trespassers. I'd like to know what kind of data you used to determine that the trespassers were killing more owls than the cats.

And finally, feral cats (and even domesticated cats allowed to roam freely for that matter) damage populations of many species besides owls.

[Art Eatman]

60/40, hmmm? Well, so much for the Endangered Species Act. I guess it's a good thing there are no Burrowing Eagles, neh?

Hey, I'll never argue against the idea that barnyard cats are helpful against the rat population. Not at all. BTDT. Spent a lot of WW II and a few years after, observing exactly that at my grandparents' farm/ranch. Had house cats when I moved back to that "old home place" during 1967-1979.

There is a vast difference between the basic house-pet cat that occasionally ventures outsides and does a relatively small amount of serious hunting, vs. the truly feral housecat that subsists on prey species of wildlife. I've watched that. My sorta-joke is that I've spent more time in the boonies than most folks have in breathing. Hey, more time around a campfire than a lot of folks have lived...

I know from direct observation what uncontrolled populations of feral housecats do to quail populations as well as songbird and squirrel populations. Basically, it's "either/or".

People take polls and vote and all that as regards how they or others should behave in interactions with animals. I have yet to see any polls or votes among predators as to the rights of prey species. I really doubt that any public opinion poll will affect the diet of a feral cat in any way, shape or form.

I'm happy for people to take the time and trouble to try to catch and tame and make a pet of a feral cat. I don't have the time or the inclination. But I guarantee you that those 70-some-odd feral cats that the local animal control people trapped in the general vicinity of my wife's house did not get neutered or adopted. I guess you could say they got "vacuum packed".

Oh: As one who has lived in a desert for 23 years, now, I find a modicum of enjoyment in using the Internet "handle" of "Desertrat" on the rather few other Boards I frequent. I generally sign off as 'Rat.

:), Art

[Brian Dale]

Mr. Taylor, about your six cats:All sterilized and vet checked and immunized.Well done. Seriously. That's what we do, too. Several dozen have been adopted in this little rural community in recent years, for example -- at least when we find the dropped-off, unwanted cats soon enough after they've been dumped out here in the country.

May we send you another million or so from Wisconsin? Our houses are full. May we also send you the veterinary bills when our pets get torn up or maimed by feral cats? Of course, that won't take away the pain of the pet cats' injuries... And would you please send us cures for the diseases that the feral populations harbor?

Oh -- and some songbirds. I've heard that Florida has lots of nice songbirds. Thanks.

[1911 guy]

There seems to be some confusion, willingly, I think, for some of the folks posting here. For those of you who don't get it yet, we're talking about WILD cats. that's what feral means, get a dictionary. So if you feed, immunize, otherwise care for your cats and keep them from roaming the countryside, they're safe. As for the "boys shooting the birds", kill a few of those cotton-picking cats and you won't be able to blame the boys anymore. If I'm near a house, even back in the woods where I hunt, no shooting cats as they might be pets. Let me get a mile or two out, and I'll lay 'em down as fast as I can sight and squeeze. As soon as you treehugger types find a way to keep cats from killing songbirds, young squirrels, and about anything else they can catch, sure I'll stop killing them. Sorry for my rant, but a couple of these guys were making my head hurt. :banghead:

[Byron Quick]

Uncollared? Not in town? It's an animal? It's a target of opportunity. It's your pet? It's your livestock? If it's livestock then I'll try to contact you and give you the chance to control your property. I'll call you about your hunting dogs or your collared pets. The first time or two. Then I'll solve the problem myself. Hunting? Nah. I don't hunt roaches...I just kill them...and I just might go looking for them. Vermin is vermin. Guess what? If you let your pets or livestock become vermin... just who is responsiblie when someone justifiably rids the world of them?

[testar77]

:d To me all cats look good in my crosshairs. Sorry not a cat person! :evil:

[dakotasin]

not only should it be legal to kill feral cats, it should be mandatory.

the feral cat problem out here has gotten out of hand. i now will go out of my way to kill skunks, and feral cats. before all the knuckleheads started dumping their cats, there used to be a little pheasant hunting available to anybody that wanted it. the cats took care of that problem, though.

i am sick and tired of feral cats... i'm up to somewhere around 30-40 for this year, and i take a rifle w/ me everywhere i go. hope to finish the summer up at around 150. that ought to help the pheasant population out next year or two - too late for this year, though.

[meathammer]

The fact that "legalized cat hunting" is even being debated is ridiculous. I grew up in rural Wisconsin. Everyone I grew up with or know believed in the "3 Esses":

Shoot
Shovel
Shutup

No apparent feral cat problems by my parent's property. ;)


--meathammer

[Art Eatman]

dakotasin, if you had more coyotes, cougars and horned owls, you wouldn't have all those feral cats!

We have all three of those cat-predators down here in Terlingua, and relatively few feral cats. But I help out as best I can...

:), Art

[dakotasin]

you could very well be right... we have the yotes in spades, but they don't make many cougars or horned owls here (snow owls on occasion).

the problem isn't so much the cats manufacturing themselves, it is the cats being dumped. the farm is right in between 2 cities (use the term loosely - neither is very big), and so many folks find it convenient to hop on the interstate, get off, find a gravel road, and dump their problems.

i do have to admit though, there is nothing quite as funny as sending 162 grains of hornady right behind the shoulders (cleanly missing major bone) and into the lungs of a feral cat at 5 or 10 yards. if you've ever done it... lol! i guess stalking cats can be fun, but it has grown old, and sometimes the rifle just wants to stretch its legs a touch, y'know?

[V-fib]

YES! Feral cats and while I'm at it feral dogs!

[bean357]

OH YES. Got two this past week in the yard, one was soon after the hen woodduck nesting in one of the houses we put up called out all nine of her younguns....and led them off through the grove toward the drainage ditch---same direction the cat came from. I hope it did not feast on any of the ducklings before I nabbed my hubbys 17 HMR and fired it for the first time :evil: . As for the coyotes, they have been becoming very, very brave here as well as multiplying like mad.... and there is no shortage whatsoever of the great horned hooties....can step outside most nights and hear both owls hooting and yotes howling not so far off, yet still seeing (and shooting) more feral cats than ever :confused:

[ziadel]

go after feral cats all you want.

but if you slip up and shoot one of MY cats, you will have a very, very serious problem.

[JohnKSa]

ziadel,

Since you sound like you care about your cats, I'm sure that you don't let them roam free where they can catch diseases, be killed by predators or cars, be injured by other animals, or be mistaken for feral animals and trapped or killed legally. So then, what makes you think someone would shoot them? Are you suggesting that anyone on this thread is advocating breaking into someone's house and shooting their pets? And if that's what you're saying, how in heaven's name would that have anything to do with FERAL cats anyway?

[Art Eatman]

Don't ever get the idea that cats can't or won't travel. I was at the post office, one day about 20 years back, grumbling about shooting a cat that was stalking quail near my bird-feeder. The postmaster lady and I got into a discussion about it, including a description of the cat. She said it sounded very much like one that had showed up at her house. She'd been feeding it on her back porch, but it had recently quit coming.

Near as we could tell, same cat.

My house is about four miles from hers, with rough desert country in between us.

(No, she wsn't particularly upset. She likes quail, too.)

Art

[rugerman]

Want to here something really stupid. The Auburn Vet school has a research project were they live trap feral cats neuter them and release them. Good practice for the vet students but stupid for everything else. If it were up to me they would be used for target practice. rugerman

[Dale Taylor]

Auburn, Michigan State and Cornell are the 3 best vet schools in USA. I respect them. daleltaylor@att.net

[redneck]

Lots of folks do the fix and release thing. My aims not THAT good yet :neener:

[CentralTexas]

I'm up for that....
CT :p

[JohnKSa]

My boss is going through this right now. So far he's had 4 or 5 of the feral cats that hang around his place fixed and has paid for their shots. He can't afford to do many more though. And unless he can get them ALL fixed or until they come up with a shot that prevents coyotes from eating them or cars from running over them, it's not going to change much other than his bank balance.

On the other hand, in a week or two, he could have that place free of feral cats. Cost would be virtually nothing, and the stress on him and the animals would be much reduced.

[Kestrel]

Art,

Have you gotten to witness an owl capture a feral cat? Now that's something I would like to see. Those owls are efficient.

There should be no question as to shooting feral cats - get rid of them. When I was younger and deer hunted on an uncle's farm, he told me to shoot any dog I saw out there. Lots of feral/wild dogs chasing deer, as well as hunting dogs from some irresponsible hunters that he had warned over and over about turning their dogs loose on his farm to run deer. He told me to shoot the dog and if it has a collar, cut it off and throw it in the creek.

[Art Eatman]

No, I've not had the chance to see "Old Hush Wing" at work.

I spent a lot of my early years around my grandparents' farm/ranch, and then in my teens my parents bought the place next door.

Maybe it's all the experiences of those outdoor years that have led to my puzzlement about how people can get so emotionally exercised in favor of feral cats and dogs over native wildlife.

To me, the idea of spending money on a feral cat to neuter it and then return it to the wild is just pretty close to evil-- from the standpoint of what I consider to be a waste of one's earnings and a general ignorance of wildlife reality.

Art

[Dale Taylor]

I guess, I'm "evil". Are gun owners evil as some say?? daleltaylor@att.net

[JohnKSa]

You're not any more evil than the next guy. Just mistaken.

And that's not surprising. Unless you've made an effort to research this topic, it's likely that everything you've been exposed to up until now has driven you toward your current point of view on this topic. Your view is common and popular but wrong.

[Art Eatman]

Dale, I guess it goes back to the way I was raised, as I said. I pretty much grew up outdoors, watching what I now call the interrelationships in nature. (Didn't use such high-falutin' words when I was a kid.) Now in my older years, my joke is that I have spent more time outdoors watching and hunting than most people have in being upright and breathing.

I value native wildlife over introduced species of predators. I surely don't see where that could at all be wrong. To me, those who value an introduced predator over native species are wrong. I see no rational justification for that view. Now, being wrong out of ignorance is tolerable; it can be cured.

If somebody continues to hold to an idea after having it explained why the idea is wrong, with factual and rational reasoning having been provided, I begin to think in terms of wilful, deliberate wrong on the part of that person. Wilful, deliberate wrong, to me, is edging right up alongside of "evil".

Anyhow, that's how I got to where I got. :)

Releasing house cats into the wild is different only in degree, not kind, from the inadvertent release of rats from sailing ships onto south Pacific Ocean islands, where in some instances entire bird colonies were eradicated. People with any pretense to understanding of, knowledge of, environmental relationships are supposed to understand this sort of thing and know better.

Art

[Cosmoline]

I love cats, but the wild ones can do enormous amounts of damage to the ecosystem, from destroying songbird populations to spreading illness. They're extremely effective hunters. True wild dogs are far more rare. Most of the time, folks who shoot dogs are shooting someone's dog that got loose. Thouth they're bigger than cats, they have a much harder time making it in the wild. Dogs just like to run, esp. when they get in groups. They'll run for miles, and folks seeing them think "wild dogs!"

I'd think twice before killing dogs. Up here the owners may end up returning fire.

[dakotasin]

and they make fine targets!

[Kestrel]

Remember that the brown tree snake, released onto Guam, has practically eradicated all bird life there. It, too, was a non-native predator that ruined the system. The snakes are all over the island and they can't get rid of them. I saw a show on TV once, that showed trees and foliage that once were alive with the sounds of birds, were now silent. It was very stark.

These cats can also upheave a system very quickly, if allowed to go unchecked. And remember, they breed like rabbits...

[Art Eatman]

As a generality, dogs aren't a problem unless they gather into a pack, and size is definitely a factor. However, town dogs near the edge of the town/city can and will attack and kill sheep or goats, as a co-worker of mine discovered.

The owner of one of the dogs went through the, "Oh, MY dog wouldn't do that!" He changed his mind, seeing the bloody mouth of his dead dog, lying next to one of the ten dead sheep...

There's a pack of feral dogs which has been around the Terlingua area for several years. They've been seen pulling down a buck. They were driven off from pulling down a colt. A local, hiking near her home, had enough lead to get into the house before she was pulled down. A local chant is, "Go, lions, go!"

Art

[Dale Taylor]

My grandfather told me 60 years ago, don't shoot anything you won't eat unless your life is in danger or in a war. Still good advice. I don't like grove rats, cats kill them and eat them. I haven't eaten rats since survival school where snakes and buzzards were delicasy. If cats didn't kill the rats I'd be over run. Don't shoot what you won't eat. There should be no joy in killing. daleltaylor@att.net

[Art Eatman]

Well, Dale, about the only "always" I know of is "Don't lie, cheat or steal." Sure, the view of not killing except for eating is reasonable, but it's no "always".

Out in the boonies, skunks and rattlesnakes are no problem to anybody. A raccoon in one's chicken house is a different story. A rabid animal anywhere near where people are is also a different story: Who's NOT gonna kill such an animal? And, is anybody gonna eat the meat of a rabid critter? And that's why I go off on these "always" tangents. :)

I dunno. I guess I spent just too many years outdoors, and spent many years brain-picking on the "bug and bunny" environmental biologists to deal with the views of those raised on Salter and Disney. Those two people are probably the worst enemies of wildlife we've ever had around to influence us.

Sure, as a kid I loved "Bambi". But even as a kid I knew it was a story; it's not a documentary. Same for Disney's stuff. The lion will lie down with the lamb, sure enough--but only the lion will get up.

And folks who allow non-native predators into an ecosystem are doing great harm. It is a personal responsibility for people to hit the delete key on the harm they or some other person has done.

Art

[Dale Taylor]

Art, I agree "don't lie cheat or steal". daleltaylor@att.net

[1911 guy]

about the not killing thing. I agree that it's not good to kill for no purpose, but a legitimate purpose may be meat, the rabid animal, or to stop excess predation as is caused by uncontrolled cats. They are one of the few animals that will kill simply for "fun" with no intention of eating their prey. That is the reason bird and small critter populations suffer so much from them. So, in my line of reasoning, killing them is not puposeless.

[JohnKSa]

My grandfather told me 60 years ago, don't shoot anything you won't eat unless your life is in danger or in a war. Still good advice.No, it's very poor advice and also VERY simplistic/poorly thought out. The fact that you don't understand why this is true is very revealing.

1. If the advice were well thought through, it would say "...don't KILL anything..." Clearly there's no moral difference between killing something with a bullet as opposed to using a trap, a knife, poison, or a spear.

2. If the advice were well thought out, it would differentiate between killing animals and killing humans. Clearly there is a huge moral difference between killing a person and killing an animal. Obviously, your grandfather wasn't telling you that it was all right to kill a person if you were going to eat him, nor was he telling you it was all right to wantonly kill a game animal and let it go to waste simply because you were in a war. The idea that one can or should use a single rule for determining the morality of killing both humans and animals is absolute folly.

3. Killing animals (whatever the method) is often necessary and moral even when one does not intend to eat them. Mouse traps, insect poisons, and antibiotics are clearly not immoral and are just as clearly necessary in some cases. Reducing overpopulations of various living things is sometimes required and the most humane and efficient method is often to kill the excess population.

[Dale Taylor]

Exept Mr. Eatman you are all hiding behind an alias. Shame. daleltaylor@att.net

[Matt G]

Hell, Mr. Taylor-- You want to know who we are, just ask.

My name is Matt Guest. I live in Fort Worth, Texas. Email me or PM me and I'll give you my home telephone number. Hiding? Most of us are willing to be up front is you ask for information. Some post under pseudonymns for their own reasons. Very few are hiding, however.

As for not killing what you don't eat, I think that's pretty simplistic. I'll kill any rodent in or about my house. I'll kill over-abundant introduced species, including grackles, feral cats, and rabbits in Australia. (okay, I haven't gotten Down Under yet, but you get the point.) I'll kill mosquitos that bite, june bugs that buzz and bother and make messes, and chiggars and fire ants (another non-native species) by the millions-- just because they annoy me. An intoduced pest that I DO eat when I kill it is wild hog.

I enjoy hunting. I take pleasure in it. I cannot claim that I profit (usually) from hunting-- I spend more on gear, time off, travel, licenses, etc than I save on meat. I am a predator, and I do spill blood. I absolutely make every effort to avoid unneccessary suffering, even to mangy old feral cats. They get the cleanest shot I can make. I do NOT eat them. :)

I'm curious-- what should the city pounds do with the hundreds of tons of cats and dogs that nobody wants each year? What ends up being done with the tons of fuzzy cat and dog flesh is to KILL them humanely, and then BURN the bodies. This is done because it has to be done. If more people would spay and neuter their pets, it wouldn't have to be done. But across this planet, people fail to, and someone else has to clean up the mess. You don't want to. Okay. Just don't judge too harshly those that will.

[JohnKSa]

The fact that I do or do not post my full name has nothing to do with the validity of my opinions. Is there something relevant to this discussion that you would like to know about me? Or is this merely an attempt to deflect attention from the topic of the thread?

I use this name for all the posting I do on the web. If you want to know more about my opinions, you may do a search of this site, or even a search of the entire internet search. I've posted a few thousand times on this site and I'll bet you'll get around 2000 hits on the general web if you search on my username. You'll find out far more about me than I could possibly find out about you by simply knowing your full name. ;)

[1911 guy]

I would assume is resorting to smear tactics because his ideology is not holding up and refuses to rethink his position. My name is Chris Garlich, in Warren, Oh. So much for hiding, eh? If there is any more serious discussion by Mr. Taylor, count me in. Until then, go mess with someone who will rise to your bait and get all hot and bothered. Most of us have got better things to do and discuss.

[Art Eatman]

Mr. Taylor, I gotta agree with 1911 guy. When one's personal opinion is shown to be incorrect in what I see as a reasonably rational and logical fashion, ad hominem attacks are not at all rational rebuttal.

My ideas and reasoning are the same, whether I register here as myself or via my "handle" of Desertrat.

En passant, I note that some people on Internet boards are vulnerable to searches as to their true identities, thinking of either some sort of "revenge" or identity theft. I am not vulnerable in that fashion. Those who feel such needs are free to use such nomenclature as they wish.

After all, arguments are based on correct content, not source. And nobody here can be sure that "Dale Taylor" is a real name--not that I, personally, care one way or the other.

:), Art

[Dale Taylor]

Dale Taylor is my real name. I'm not afraid or "evil".

[kbheiner7]

I favor the live-trapping of feral cats.

They make great training aids for our hounds! :evil: They don't put up much of a fight though.

[svtruth]

Do feral cats really take a lot of songbirds? We've had lots of in/outside cats and they bring home (or used to in their younger days) small mammals, snakes, frogs, very few birds.

[Matt G]

Those aren't feral cats. Your cats are fed daily. Feral cats hunt all day long for their food. It's the difference between having lions at the zoo and having them wander loose through your city.

[JohnKSa]

Dale Taylor is my real name. I'm not afraid or "evil".Mr. Taylor,

That is your fourth post in a row which fails to address the topic of the thread. I have no authority, so I'm not reprimanding you, just making an observation.

I would be interested in discussing feral animals, the effects of cats on local animal populations, or even your grandfather's advice further, but it's pretty hard to do if you keep trying to change this into a discussion regarding the ramifications of internet anonymity.

[Art Eatman]

Good observation.

Mr. Taylor, the whole issue of nomenclature is irrelevant, as has been said more than once. The only matter of importance is the content of one's argument.

svtruth, I haven't gone back to check, but isn't the Wisconsin study referred to early on? To recap, a feral cat is reputed to kill some 100 songbirds a year. Watching "just a house cat" types around my wife's home here in south Georgia, that's believable. That's less than three per week, which seems to be a reasonable effort and success rate. The estimate from the study was that there are some one million feral cats in the state of Wisconsin.

If the study is anywhere near correct, that's 100 milion songbirds a year.

So: Even if the feral cat population estimate is off by a factor of ten, it's still ten million songbirds.

The crux of the matter is that the feral cats are a non-native, introduced predator species doing great harm to the native bird population. In dealing with the great numbers involved, there is no other option but to destroy feral cats as the opportunity arises. Certainly neuter-and-release accomplishes nothing; neutering does not remove hunger pangs--for food, anyway. Who knows? Possibly the absence of concupiscence allows more time for hunting?

Art

[1911 guy]

I have seen several cats take birds, some truly feral, others ill kept pets. Birds are not usually first choice for cats as they can get away often, so if these cats are killing that many birds, how many other animals are they killing? Most will notice the "pretty birds" first, but the small mammal, reptile and insect populations will be affected by predation as well. Anyone have facts about how many housepets are harmed by wild cats annually?

[dakotasin]

i don't, but i do know there was one trying to get into the garage last night...

can't let 'em lay very long in this warmer weather, though... flies come, they smell bad... :evil:

[Shalako]

If it makes you feel better to believe that nothing should be killed if its not food, thats great. If that works for you, and you don't care about the inconsistencies and unreconciled flaws in that line of logic, that's great too.

Weeds get killed for no reason. Rodents in the house get snapped up in a trap. Moths get zapped in the buglight. Butterflies get collected on my truck's grill. Deer, coyotes, foxes, and racoons starve to death when their habitat got plowed for that new development. Nesting birds abandon their nest when that big happy dog walked by on his way to the river. Nests full of chicks get flushed downstream when the reservoir ramps up their releases. Trees get chopped down because they blocked someone's view. Worms get chopped in half when I stir my compost pile. All manner of bugs get toasted when I douse my garden with pepper wax spray.

We humans kill stuff all day long and I for one don't have time to lose any sleep over it. When you consiser all that, what merit will I gain by abstaining from shooting a squirrel? Am I suddenly on the ethical high ground by some sort of New Age measure of wellness? When the exhaust from my pickup is choking off the atmosphere, all my trash and old computers are making leachate in some landfill, forest roads to allow harvest of my timber are silting up all the rivers, and all the modern farming that feeds us is nuking the topsoil....why should I give a flying damn if I decide to shoot some squirrel or not? That barely even factors into the equation by a millionth of a percent.

But if it makes you feel better, that's great.