[whm1974]

Ok one of the guards where I work at ask me where he can find .38 wadcutters since he can't find them. The Walmart he went to even told him that they are illegal.

When I ask him what he wanted them for, he then told me he wanted a box of them for defence. He claimed that they mushroomed very well and that when he was on a armed post they didn't them in the guns(where I work at isn't an armed post).

Every so often someone makes this claim about WCs. How great they are for defence... Blah... Blah.

Just how did this get started?

-Bill

[XD40Assassin]

I dont know, they look like they'd hurt pretty bad but they dont seem all that aerodynamic so maybe theyd hurt less? lol

[dasmi]

Probably would make a nice clean hole in you. I'd rather have a hollow point.

[RyanM]

Illegal? Target grade target-only target ammunition for shooting targets while target shooting is now illegal?

Or most people working at Wal-Mart are stupid idiots.

In any case, wadcutters are usually loaded to too low of a velocity to expand at all; circa 750 fps or so from any barrel length. They will punch a nice, big caliber-width hole, however, and aren't dependent on velocity to perform at their best, like hollowpoints are. If you handload them to high velocities, though, I have no doubt that they'd mushroom just like any other unjacketed, soft lead flatpoint.

So the main reason why wadcutters are great for defense (especially from snubbies) is because they give you a guaranteed .357" wide hole no matter what barrel length you use, compared to a hollowpoint that might only make a .25" hole if it fails to expand, or a .5" hole if it does.

[orangeninja]

I think Elmer Kieth...(gun rag writer) started the whole wad cutter thing.

The deal is, 20 some odd years ago it may have been a good idea.....but with modern ammo, modern powders and moder alloys.....I think it is an antiquated notion.

Much like a Chuck Taylor book I am reading now that said that the .357 Magnum overpenetrates and hollow points do not reliably expand. His suggestion? A 1911 with ball ammo or a .44 special with wadcutters.....note: this book was probably written well over 20 years ago.

[mec]

Most people who Work at Walmart say that Walmart itself, is a stupid idiot. But, Wadcutters are legal wherever ammunition is sold.

Wadcutters were designed to cut an easily scored hole in a paper target. First ones seem to have been .44 caliber with a sharp , sub-diameter nose sticking out because it was thought that that would be needed for stability. This was early in the 20th century and was either loaded in .44 Russian or Special The sharp nose made no difference and was eliminated. Many people like the wc for defense because they do have a flat point and should cut a full diameter hole in flesh. The mid-700 fps loading doens't have much energy but handloaders sometimes drive the standard 148 gr wc to 800 or even 1000 fps and they remain accurate at those ranges. They won't expand at all unless they are of the hollow based variety loaded backwards to make a big hollow point.

[whm1974]

I think Elmer Kieth...(gun rag writer) started the whole wad cutter thing.

He recamened SEMI-wadcutters which is tottley diffenct then wadcutters. I rather have a hollowpoint, maybe a HPSWC?

-Bill

[mete]

Let me try to straighten things out .There is a wadcutter, a simple cylinder of lead ,it punches a full caliber hole. Expansion would depend on velocity but since they are made of soft lead you can't drive them too fast ......There is the hollow base wadcutter ,a cylinder with the base hollow. If this bullet is loaded backwards it becomes a hollow point and will expand very easily but can't be driven fast.....There is the semi-wadcutter with a flat point an full caliber shoulder. It also cuts a full caliber hole in both paper and flesh. It's far more effective than the round nose for hunting or defense. Doesn't expand much especially if hard cast......There is the jacketed hollow point designed to be driven at higher velocity and expand well....Best choice for defense ? a well designed JHP.

[Standing Wolf]

The Walmart he went to even told him that they are illegal.

Do you have to be dumb to work at Wal Mart, or can you just fake it?

[whm1974]

[QUOTE]Do you have to be dumb to work at Wal Mart, or can you just fake it?

I feel the same way about taxi drivers... To be honest this will depend on which store. Some of them may have someone behide the counter who is a shooter or hunter.

-Bill

[adobewalls]

Wow this is an "oldie". I have not heard anyone talk about wadcutters for self-defense since I was in college (a couple of decades ago.)

Here's what I heard and what I have observed.

In college I would go with a college buddie to his home during hunting season because his family had land and let us poor college students hunt. Well one day, the local sheriff was visiting my friends' father (the local football coach) and told a story of one of his deputies shooting a suspect - hitting the suspect in the arm with wadcutters. The sheriff said that the wadcutters practically tore the suspect's arm off.

Now fast forward a few years and I am out of college, have bought my dream .357, and am now reloading. But what that sheriff said always stuck with me, so one of the first things I wanted to do was load up some full wadcutters and see how they performed. I did this and chose for my media, unopened coke cans. I loaded LHBWC using W231 (3 or 4 grains if I remember) and unleashed all that fury on those cans of coke.

The cans had .357 holes going in. But what surprised me was that the backs of the cans were ripped and torn open.

What I think happened to those cans was the relatively long LHBWC shot at the low velocity upset and began to tumble once it entered the can full of coke - so that the LHBWC hit the backside of the can sideways tearing its way out.

Now whether it would do the same thing entering the muscles on someone's arm, I could not say. Is it something I would use for self-defense - no. I still prefer 158 Hornaday XTP's loaded behind a healthy dose of H110 or W296.

[c_yeager]

hollowpoint that might only make a .25" hole if it fails to expand

Um, a hollow point round in .38special is still .357 in diameter so that is the size of a hole it is going to make. It wont be as clean around the edges but it is the same diameter. The only way to get an object that is .357 inches in diameter through another solid object is by making a hole that is the same size.

Now, when talking about shooting people and/or animals the skin will stretch out and you probably wont get a WOUND that is that same diameter but that is going to be the same with any bullet.

I see wadcutters all over the place but, they are usually loaded in target ammunition or some commercial reloads. There is a reason why virtually everyone who gets a choice chooses hollowpoints for defense.

[RyanM]

Now, when talking about shooting people and/or animals the skin will stretch out and you probably wont get a WOUND that is that same diameter but that is going to be the same with any bullet.

That's pretty much what I meant, yes. And you actually can observe a similar effect in paper; wadcutters make a nice, clean hole, while roundnoses and hollowpoints tend to completely "punch out" a less-than-caliber width hole, then tear the rest of the way through the paper.

Elastic tissues are about the same way, except the stretch around the bullet rather than tearing, resulting in a smaller hole.

Wadcutters, on the other hand, generally will crush a totally caliber-width hole, or very nearly so, for their entire penetration depth.

The mechanism involved in making a hole is pressure not "energy" as most would have you believe. A rounded bullet exerts its highest pressure on the very tip, and a gradually lower pressure the further from the tip you get. The end result is that near the tip, where pressure is very high, tissues get crushed and disintigrated; but closer to the edges, where pressure is lower, tissue is able to flow around the bullet undamaged.

As momentum is shed due to [i]drag[i] (not "energy transfer"), the velocity goes down, as does the pressure; as a result, the "pressure gradiant" across the face of the bullet changes so that only a narrower and narrower portion of the bullet has enough pressure to crush a hole (due to the ogive's sloping surface), until finally velocity is so low that none of it can, and the bullet stops altogether.

A flat faced wadcutter, however, exerts nearly equal pressure with its entire frontal surface; if the edge is sharp enough, it even exerts more pressure around the sides than the middle! The result is a caliber-width hole for the entire length of penetration; it loses velocity still, of course, but instead of the "pressure gradiant" getting narrower, the pressure on the entire face uniformly goes down (it starts out well above what is necessary to crush tissue, at handgun velocities), until pressure is too low to make a hole, and the bullet stops.

In case I explained that inadequately (wouldn't be the first time!) here's a nifty graphic that hopefully clarifies what I just said.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=22602&stc=1

[c_yeager]

Thanks for the graphic Ryan, that makes a lot of sense. Of course I would argue that the size of the hole makes little difference but, still I stand corrected.

[lbmii]

Back in the 50s, 60s, and 70s it was not uncommon for cops to load their own hot 38 special loads or find someone who would load some hot loads for them. A common technique was to load a hollow base lead wadcutter backwards along with a hot load of powder. This was a common load for snub nose 38 special revolvers that were carried by detectives.

A hollow base wadcutter loaded backwards is basically a very big lead hollow point. Many of these home made hot loaded cop loads were way hot and more like 357 mag rounds than 38 special rounds.

Normal target wadcutters are light loaded.

[joebogey]

Another question

Is shooting wadcutters any harder on your gun than shooting round nose bullets or hollow points?
That statement was made to me just yesterday and I wanted another opinion.

[sigma40sw]

Back in the 70's I was one of those guys who used to load Hollow Base 38 wad cutters backwards. This was before any performance bullets were available. These did work well in 2" guns. I did not load them hot,not having a chrono back then, I just loaded what the Lyman book said for a 158 gr RN.
They worked just fine on some small game I tested them on.

The very first Hydro-Shock bullets on the market for 38 Spl. were nothing more than a hollow base wad cutter with a post in the center of the hollow base. I think I still have a box of them around somewhere. These where excellent in my old S&W 37 airweight. Low recoil and an impressive hole in a deer I dispatched.

Then a company called Super-Vel came along and started to design high performance bullets that worked. Soon everyone got on board and we have many choices today. Super-Vel in the 70's, is compairable to the CorBon of today.

I guess that's progress,
Sigma40sw

[Erich]

Lee Jurras has his own forums up, btw. :)

IIRC, David DiFabio speaks well of the wadcutter out of the short-barrelled .38.

[Gordon Fink]

Wadcutters will also have less penetration for the same blah blah blah … :D

~G. Fink

[lbmii]

I would think that there would be a market for hot loaded full wadcutters in 38 special, 357 mag and 44 special.

[whm1974]

I heard about people loading HBWC in backwards when I was a kid. But now we have decent defence ammo. Even Walmart carries Hollow points.

-Bill

[megatronrules]

I for one carry the old 158gr. +p LSWCHP in my colt detective special the reason being that the moder jhp loads we have today are designed for use in 4inch revolvers not snub nosed guns. That being said the 135gr. +p gold dots out now are sposed to be working well out of the short barreled guns that they were designed for use in. I am going to get me some of these and test them out to see,but for now I'll stick to my "old school" I know for a fact will do what it needs to Newer isn't always better I guess.

[spook]

You might want to check out this information from Tactical Forums.

http://www.tacticalforums.com/cgi-bin/tacticalubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=78;t=000282#000000

148gr lwc are considered very effective in light weight snub nose revolvers. Since you can't depend on expansion, from a 2 inch revolver the wadcutters offer adequare penetration and according to the above create a better wound channel due to the configuration of the bullet even without expansion. An additional factor is better control due to lower recoil in light revolvers.

[Sunray]

"...shooting wadcutters any harder on your gun..." No. WC's in factory ammo are loaded to target velocities and they're usually pure or nearly pure lead. You can shoot thousands and thousands of 'em without bothering a revolver in good condition.
Like the guys are saying, they make neat round holes in paper targets to make scoring easier. Mind you, if one of 'em hits bone, it'll either have a hunk torn off with the resulting internal mess or be deflected with the same resulting internal mess or be flattened, likely crack or break the bone and cause a whole lot of hurt. Still they're designed to be driven at low velocities.
Tell your buddy to go to a real gun shop and ask for Remington .38 Special Target ammo. A hit with a low velocity .38 WC is better than no hit with a 125 grain HP out of a .357.
Walmart employees are mostly part time kids, get minimum wage and no training.

[OtG]

this ammo:
http://www.safestop.net/Frame.htm
Is copper-jacketed wadcutters, with a v-notch in the leading face.

In his first post in that thread, DocGKR explains the effects of the notch, but nowhere is the purpose explained.

Anybody know?

[Pumpkinheaver]

Back in the day before modern high performance ammunition people used to load hollowbase wadcutters backwards under a stiff charge of powder and use them for defense.

[another okie]

"Back in the day before modern high performance ammunition people used to load hollowbase wadcutters backwards under a stiff charge of powder and use them for defense."

Old timers told me that, too, so I tested it.

Poor or no expansion and extremely inaccurate.

This is one of those "everyone knows" ideas that is wrong.

[goon]

In all fairness to the people who work at the sporting goods section at Wal-mart, you have to remember that they are often not "gun people". They are just the poor guys who knows how to properly fill out the paperwork and call in the background check.

The other side of the coin are the customers. Do you have any idea how many dumb people own guns?
I worked part time at a gun shop and I can tell you that if you had to be smart to own a gun, just about every gun manufacturer would be out of business.

As for the wadcutter thing...
I bet they would hurt, just like any other bullet.
I bet if you got shot in the chest with two or three of them, you would die, just like with about any other bullet.
I would rather be a good marksman than buy "more dangerous" bullets. The next time someone suggests the "most dangerous" bullet to me, I am going to suggest that they pick up two boxes of plinking ammo and invest in it instead.

[Jim K]

Factory type hollow base wadcutters are very soft and have a very deep base cavity. Loaded backward, they are one of the few expanding bullet types that really will expand at short-barrel velocities. I have seen them expand to over 60 caliber when fired from a 3" barrel.

Even cast wadcutters, without the cavity, do a lot of damage to flesh because they punch a hole rather than tearing it, causing massive blood loss. The disadvantage for general use is that they don't feed well in auto pistols and are too inefficient aerodynamically to have much range, even when loaded "hot".

The name, incidentally, comes from the fact that they punch out a clean, round hole very like the hole cut by a wad cutter used to punch out cardboard wads for shotshells.

Jim.

[BluesBear]

The original Hyrda-Shok Scorpion ammo was nothing but a modified CWBH.

The problem with loading any wadcutter is that in order to drive it fast enough for reliable penetration that it will keyhole.

DO NOT ATTEMPT TO DRIVE A HOLLOW BASE WADCUTTER (HBWC) AT HIGH VELOCITY

At higher velocities you can blow the "skirt" off and it can remain inside the barrel. Firing another round afterwards can be disasterous!

A cast lead, full wadcutter driven around 800-900 fps does, in fact, make a nice wound channel. But you simply cannot drive it nearly as fast as you can a SWC or a JHP.

[cxm]

There is a trick to loading HBWC cavity up at high velocity.

The trick is gas checks. Seat a gas check on the nose and you will not blow out the core of the bullet.

These loads are very tricky... they take a good bit of development. You have to find the right load to get them to work right... once you work up a good accurate load they are very good indeed.

FWIW

Chuck

[BluesBear]

Seat a gas check on the nose and you will not blow out the core of the bullet. NO!
I am talking about loading a HBWC the proper way. Solid nose forward, hollow base aft. The whole purpose of the hollow base is to ensure a good gas seal and to totally engage the rifling. A heavy powder charge will blow the skirt off and leave it in the barrel.

Loading it reversed as a hollow cavity is called CWBH (Hollow Base Wad Cutter backwards.
You can load a CWBH as hot as you want but you'll get keyholes especially with shorted barrels.
I'd venture to say that if I have not done the most experimentation with CWBH ammunition I am in the top three since I have sold over 100,000 rounds of it. I was also one of the original distributors for Hydra-Shok Scorpion ammo.

[1911Tuner]

Factory loaded .38 Special wadcutter ammo is loaded to very low velocity, and doesn't really make very good defensive ammunition. I've clocked some as low as 500 fps. This was demonstrated to me by a guy I haven't seen in a while...His name was/is Jake C. I'll call him "Big Jake" which is self-explanatory. He lived in High Point, NC at the time. I don't know where he is now. Maybe he's reading this...

Big Jake was giving his young nephew a little instruction one spring day back in 1985 or thereabouts. To say that the lad was inexperienced would be an understatement. To make a long story short...he shot Big Jake in the outer
right thigh straight on with a .38 wadcutter at a range of about 10 feet.

The bullet penetrated a single thickness of Levi denim stretched tight over
Jake's ample thigh...and stopped just below flush with the skin. After much
profanity, Jake stripped his pants off right there, and essentially popped the bullet out like a 148-grain pimple...or at least far enough that he could grab it and pull it the rest of the way out. The plug of denim was adhered to the nose of the bullet. There was very little blood flow, and after walking back up to the house to irrigate the hole with hydrogen peroxide, we continued the shooting session...without the boy, of course...and Big Jake had no further ill effects from the wound, other than some soreness and light bruising for the next few days.

Wadcutters for punching holes in paper? Fine...For serious social purposes?
Notta chance.

[g56]

Loaded backward, they are one of the few expanding bullet types that really will expand at short-barrel velocities. I have seen them expand to over 60 caliber when fired from a 3" barrel.
Yep, I did that back in the 60's, it was a lousy idea in the 60's and it hasn't gotten any better. The bullet isn't designed to be loaded backwards, it is extremely unstable and very inaccurate, half the time they won't hit the target in the same direction they were loaded, they keyhole and tumble, losing energy and effectiveness rapidly.

[whm1974]

Just where did people get this idea that something designed for target shooting is good for defence? I'm thinking that poeple get SWC confused with WC.

-Bill

[BluesBear]

Well about 60 years ago there were wadcutter loading that were not "mid-range".

I carried 195gr full wadcutters in my 4" S&W Model 58 .41 Magnum back in the 1980s. There weren't many good hollow points available back then that would expand at lower velocities.

I garrontee you that one of those full wadcutters hitting you at 1000fps would put a serious hurting on you. I called mine "Flying Trash Cans".

The trick with wadcutters is to have enough length to diameter ratio to keep them stable.

[OtG]

whm1974 Just where did people get this idea that something designed for target shooting is good for defence? I'm thinking that poeple get SWC confused with WC.
-Bill

DocGKR over at www.tacticalforums.com says that the 148 gr. .38 Special wadcutter is the best defense load for a snub.

Due to the low velocities, most hollowpoints won't expand and/or penetrate suffeciently.

http://www.tacticalforums.com/cgi-bin/tacticalubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=78;t=000480#000001

http://www.tacticalforums.com/cgi-bin/tacticalubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=78;t=000282#000004

[lyricsdad]

Due to the low velocities, most hollowpoints won't expand and/or penetrate suffeciently.

Why not check this out yourself, get a few phonebooks, soak em in water, or even a box of newspapers, soak them... then shoot away, go through them and look at the bullets to see of any expanded.

I do this all the time, and have found that even my little .22 expands.

[RyanM]

Why not check this out yourself, get a few phonebooks, soak em in water, or even a box of newspapers, soak them... then shoot away, go through them and look at the bullets to see of any expanded.

Paper, especially if it's been soaked less than 8 hours, tends to "crush" bullets more than it causes them to expand. For instance, I read somewhere on here that someone was able to get black powder revolver balls (fired from a regular bp revolver) to expand to the size of a quarter, and regular non HP conicals expanded to the size of a nickel, by shooting slighly soaked phone books.

Shooting water-filled gallon jugs with similar results in conicals not deforming at all, and round balls usually between 1.2x and 1.3x of their original diameter.

[whm1974]

I'm going to stick with the box of WWB 125 gr JHP+P for HD ammo.

Last time I went Walmart They were out of WWB JHP .38 SPL. But they did have JSP, the kind that is a semi jacket SWC. How would this do for defence?

-Bill

[BluesBear]

The soft points would get you by, Bill, but they wouldn't preform as well as the hollow point on your average, run of the mill bipeds.

[jdberger]

I've no idea if this is true, but I had heard that in the olden days (60's-70's) when airplane hijackings were pretty common, that the Air Marshalls would carry a snubby .38 loaded with LHBWCs loaded backwards.

According to my source (pretty knowledgeable-but you never know) the idea was that the bullet would zip out of the gun but that the bullet would rapidly lose velocity because of drag. The slow bullet would be less likely to pierce the skin of the aircraft. This is when they thought that a bullet hole in the fuselage of a pressurized airplane would cause everyone inside to get sucked out and make the plane crash.

I've loaded some up and they were fun enough to shoot at pins and plates - but I was using a 6" Python and I never bothered to chron them.

(IF you were alive and kicking in the 60's - PLEASE don't take offense) :neener:

[whm1974]

The soft points would get you by, Bill, but they wouldn't preform as well as the hollow point on your average, run of the mill bipeds.

My thought was these have to be better then WC's, not to also mention RN or for that matter the JRN Walmart had.

-Bill

[ceetee]

Something that hasn't been mentioned here yet (but was drummed in to my thick skull years ago) is the fact that flat-nosed rounds don't feed into the cylinder as easily as round-nosed or conicals. This is the same if you're loading them one at a time, or with a speedloader. During target practice, this wouldn't make a difference, but in a stressful situation, when you already have your body working against you, it may...

[jdberger]

flat-nosed rounds don't feed into the cylinder as easily as round-nosed or conicals

yeah - something about a round peg in a square hole...or something like that... :rolleyes:

But the HBWCs loaded flush with the case mouth are so much shorter than a regular LRN that they slip in pretty quick. Experiment, drop a Sharpie marker into the mouth of a beer bottle - now try it with a Chapstick (use someone else's beer - and no Mickeys).