[orangeninja]

Okay guys...I am looking to get a BUG or an occasional "it's way to hot for an off duty gun so I'm gonna carry this instead" type gun.

Of the options:

I don't like Glock subs...the only one that is close is the G36...but I think there are better values.

Taurus .38's and .357......I've owned several, never had a problem, but not exactly inspiring. The CIA's look really nice though.

Charter Arms....I have mixed feelings about these guys. Very reasonably priced guns....very light weight and when they work, they work. I had an "Undercover" that sucked once, sent it in for warranty work and waited 3 FRIGGIN' MONTHS before getting it back with no appologies or explanation. That plus I can't find diddly squat on their warranty stuff. Anyone know? Their Off Duty looks really nice.

Taurus Millenium Pros....nice, but kind of think in the .45, which is the only one that "feels" right. Plus, how are their quality control issues on these now?

Taurus Millenium Pro Single stacks in .45...now that is intriguing....anyone seen these yet?

Makarov. Light round, inexpensive gun so I can get two of them, ammo is cheap and holds 9 rounds. A little on the heavy side though, but very slim.

[cls12vg30]

Well you can't go wrong with a Makarov for reliability. It can be a tad bulky for a BUG though. Have you considered a Kel-tec? I understand they are very popular for BUGs among LEOs, either the P32, P3-AT, or P11.

[shooter1]

The P3-AT fills that role for me. Small and light enough to carry anywhere.
str1

[orangeninja]

Kel Tecs I have seen have had some reliability issues. If a BUG is the last chance I got, and I won't be shooting it much....it had better darn well work. I like the Kel Tec 9mm a lot, just can't trust it.

[HighVelocity]

NAA Gaurdian, S&W 642, or a Kahr could fit the bill.

[orangeninja]

Had a Kahr....interesting gun...I've had 2 of them in fact, the only problem is I couldn't get into it, it was a gun I genuinely didn't like to shoot. The Steel one was too heavy, the polymer one had a plastic frame with NO reinforcement....they're good guns, but for what you pay, they aren't a bargain...at least to me. If I pay that much, a Glock 36 is on the menu.

NAA Guardian...like the Sig 232, BITES baby. :)

I'd be,

POW!

Ouch!

POW!

Ouch!

POW!

Okay, I'm done. Anyone got a band aid?

[akviper]

FWIW, keep an eye out for a used S&W J frame airweight of whatever style you like. Very hard to beat for front pocket carry. Like all lightweights they are not fun to shoot but they are very reliable.

[HighVelocity]

Is that you or the BG saying ouch? :neener:

[LeonCarr]

The Makarov.

Sad but true, most BUGs are designed to be carried alot and seldom shot, and I do not think it is a good idea to seldom shoot a handgun that might be your first or last line of defense. Most ultralight revolvers are painful/will bite you when you shoot them with .38 +P or .357 loads. Some of the ultra lightweights like the titanium and scandium types hurt even with .38 wadcutters. If a gun hurts you, or if you can't hit anything with it, you are not going to want to shoot it or carry it. Also, they will not stand up to constant shooting, especially with the mentioned .38+Ps or .357s.

I had a Taurus 85UL Stainless Ultralite in .38, and it was nice, it only weighed 15 ounces loaded and with Uncle Mike's boot grips, concealed really nice. But it was a bear to shoot, and it was not 100% reliable with handloads, even with Federal primers.

The Makarov, with its steel frame and slide, will shoot forever without loosening up. The fixed barrel also makes its more accurate when compared to similar sized guns, it is cheap to shoot, Cor-Bon makes JHP defense loads for it, and it is possibly the best small handgun for your money. Ken Hackathorn called it the best cheap handgun :).

Get a Mak, and don't look back :).

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

[rock jock]

What about a .32 magnum? Six shots, low weight, controllable, stopping power almost equal to a standard pressure .38, and....more power than a 9x18.

[roo_ster]

Alduro:

I own a Taurus 651 Total Ti snubby in .357mag (think S&W "Bodyguard" knockoff). It started off as bit of a drama queen, but settled down after I found the right loads & I am now happy with it.

Recoil is significant, but less than the S&W Ti guns stoked with light .38spl: those S&W Ti guns are not fun.

If we ever get together through the DFW shooter's group, you are welcome to try it out.

[ChristopherG]

FWIW, keep an eye out for a used S&W J frame airweight of whatever style you like. Very hard to beat for front pocket carry. Like all lightweights they are not fun to shoot but they are very reliable.

Exactly. Get an S&W airweight (or airlite), and you'll never be without one again.

[orangeninja]

"Is that you or the BG saying ouch? "

That would be me. The band aid would be where the slide cuts the web of my hand.

Jfruser.....I think I might look into one of those also.... I like the fact that you can cock it....(not that I would ever, ever do that in a defensive situation) ;)

[birdman]

Why not give the PA 63 Feg a try. This is the Hungarian PPK look alike that shoots the 9X18. I had a Mak and while it's a fine gun I found it too bulky and heavy for pocket carry, which I prefer for a BUG in Texas. The PA 63 has an alloy frame making it much lighter than the Mak and a trimmer profile which makes it easy to carry in a pocket holster. The 7 plus 1 capacity of the little auto is a plus over the 5 shot J frames in my opinion. Also I find that making multiple COM hits is easier with the auto eventhough I'm mostly a revolver guy. My 63 has been extremely reliable with quality ammo (Hornady and Winchester mostly) and I understand that other US companies have plans to produce this round. The trigger in double action mode is horrible but can easliy be reduced by a simple change of the hammer spring. As a high usage range pistol I'm sure the Mak is superior but for a pocket pistol I'll take the 63.

[mountaindrew]

I have had a good pa-63 so ill second that recemendation, and Ill add that they are one of the cheapest surplus handguns around. I bough mine for $115 with two mags and a (useless) flap holster. They arent as sturdy as a true Mak, but they are much lighter and slimmer and have a better contoured grip (it points alot more naturally to me) it also has the mag release in the right place.

The downside is the recoil. It is similar to heavy .38 in a snub

For the price though, it worth picking one up to try.

[roo_ster]

Alduro:

Here (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=119364&highlight=taurus) is a link to the post where I talked about the load that worked for me and here (http://home.comcast.net/~jfruser/pic_host/taurus-651_win-357-180-np-jhp.jpg) is an image of the offhand 7-yard group with my 651 (warning: the image is LARGE).

[Black Snowman]

Double post, just do be differant, i'm getting rid of the 1st one ;)

[Black Snowman]

I voted for the lightweight 38. After having fired full power loads in an SP-101, I definately wouldn't want them in anything lighter. 38 +P should work just fine and I've had good luck with Taurus revolvers myself. I'd trust one over some of the other options you listed.

[p35]

As someone recently observed on another thread, a J-frame is a lot easier to carry in a front pocket than a Mak. How do you plan to carry this?

[Jeff Timm]

In the humble <HA!> opinion of a former gunwriter,
http://www.thegunzone.com/bulldog-pug.html

I think if the .44 holds up, the .38 Special will too.

Geoff
Who has a few questions, but it might be worth the experiment. :cool:

[GEM]

You can get a SW 642 for about $319 - 349 at a TX gun show. I don't know if police stores do better.

The NAA mini 22s are going to cost about $180-190 ish.

The Taurus are cheapter - you can get a snubby 9mm revolver in SS for $259 at a show.

The Kahrs are $499ish.

Maks are cheaper. Personally, I see lots of trainers with the SW J frames.

[Outbacker]

The Mak, Jack!

Taurus??? Nooooooooooooooo!!!!!! God, noooooooooooooo!!!!

:what:

[Hypnogator]

If you're looking for an "always" gun, I'd go with a Kel-Tec P-32 or P-3AT. A P-32 resides in my hip pocket in a wallet holster even as I type.

My favorite carrying piece is my Taurus PT-145 Millennium Pro. IMHO, the single-stack Tauruses aren't enough more compact to make them worthwile. Neither are pocket-carry guns.

I simply can't understand Mak users -- firing a .380-powered cartridge in a 9mm sized handgun. (Ducking and running) :evil: :neener: :D

[DMF]

S&W 642 or 342

[Soap]

If you carry it as a BUG, how do you want to carry it? It makes a big difference.

[PCRCCW]

Well.......I carry a Mak in a pocket holster. Works...but I took the Red Star grip and reshaped it a tad..........
I voted Mak, but you have lots of great choices.......the snub is another fav.
Shoot well.

[PX15]

I have a Keltec P32 that has been 100% reliable since day one. Very accurate at 5-7yards, and a pleasure to shoot. It is carried in a DeSantis wallet holster and is virtually invisible.

If the wardrobe I'm wearing allows a larger pistol I prefer the KelTec P11, with belt clip. It also has been 100% reliable* and accurate at self defense range.I have a S/W J Frame Smith (Model 638) that is CT laser equipped and while I am very pleased with it I cannot reconcile having 5 38 spec. rounds when I can have 11 9MM rounds in the same size package.

I keep reading where KelTec's always need "fluff n' buff", or a return to the factory before they are accurate and reliable, but that simply has not been my experience. I am well pleased with both.

With even more room for hiding I use my Sig P239 which is more accurate than any of the others, and has been 100% reliable from day one. Day one being as soon as they released them for sale to the public many years ago. The Sig is simply the best of all my firearms by a large margin.

* The KelTec P11 has malfunctioned with Wally World White box ammo. But then so has my Walther P1 and Star BM. I find that the WWWB ammo varies from manufacturer to manufacturer. Some batches are wonderful, so less so. I would NEVER consider using WWWB ( :cuss: )for a carry round..... (CorBon's work very nicely for that...) Apparently I'm not the only one who has had problems with WWWB as my new neighbor has had the same experiences...

JMOFO :)

[Ala Dan]

FWIW, I picked up a very cherry S&W model 37-2 Airweight for only
$225 complete with an Uncle Mikes IWB holster.

But another good suggestion for a BUG is the small Seecamp .32 ACP.
Although kind'a pricey, its quite small but heavier than a Kel-Tec.

[MICHAEL T]

Colt Mustang series or if want to spend less get a Bersa 380 new CC model coming this summer.

[orangeninja]

Still looking and here is an update.

MAK is great, but out, since it is only slightly smaller than my 225.

The Charter and Taurus's are going head to head, S&W is out, WAY too expensive. Kahr is out, price.

Kel Tec P11...will take some research. I would love to get a reliable one of these.

Maybe a Taurus Millenium Pro....I'd like to try one first.

[albanian]

It is very hard to beat the S&W air weights for a reliable and powerful pocket gun. I have a 642 but the 638 would be a great choice as well. My dad has the 638 and I think I would prefer that to mine.