Home defense with an AK-47 in FL


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Aikibiker
March 10, 2003, 11:23 PM
I just saw on the news a man stopped a home invader by shooting him once in each kneecap with his (semi-auto) AK-47. Police said he was absolutely in the right.

The station went on to make a point that owning an AK in this state is not only legal it is constitutionally protected. (State Constitution)

I'm off to search for a link to this. I will add one to a subsequent posting if I find it.

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ballistic gelatin
March 10, 2003, 11:46 PM
Once in each kneecap. That homeowner definately kept his cool. Sweet.

Aikibiker
March 10, 2003, 11:52 PM
Still haven't found a weblink.

Apparently the home owner shot the bad guy once and he went down. When he got back up the home owner shot him in the other knee. While this was happening the home owner's wife and family were in the apartment with him.

I don't know if this guy was being nice to the goblin or not. I mean the bad guy is gonna live, but getting kneecapped is gonna put a definite crimp in his prison basketball game.

jbutenhoff
March 11, 2003, 12:00 AM
Talk about a bad day for the low life! First he gets caught, second the guy had an AK, third he keeps his cool and takes out BOTH knees. Dang, that has to suck.

Now if this was only the UK then the crook could sue since he is no longer able to apply his trade ;)

Jamie

.45Ruger
March 11, 2003, 12:08 AM
I'm glad using a rifle for home defence worked out in this case but it's definitly not for me. I would either hace grabbed a .45 or a shotgun becvause the danger of over penetration using a rifle is just to great.

Phyphor
March 11, 2003, 12:14 AM
Usually, in situations like that, one doesn't have much time to be picky....

Rebeldon
March 11, 2003, 12:18 AM
I'm waiting to hear about the lawsuit. :rolleyes:

Aikibiker
March 11, 2003, 12:27 AM
Finally found it.

Here is the link to the story: www.wftv.com/news (http://www.wftv.com/news/2029476/detail.html)

Also to soothe .45Ruger's concerns.

After viewing the story again on another channel it appears that the home owner had an adequate backstop. A wooded lot was less then 15 feet from the back porch where the shooting appears to have happened. For those not familiar with Florida ecology out wooded lots are scrub land that is so thick as to be impassible without a bulldozer. I wouldn't feel bad about taking the shot.

Rebeldon, In this state? The bad guy will be lucky not to be sentenced to 25-life under Florida's 10-20-life law. After all someone was injured with a firearm while in the commission of a crime in this case. ^_^

Gewehr98
March 11, 2003, 12:45 AM
During the Y2K turnover, I set up our Bulgarian SLR-95 with plenty of 30-rounders as my house gun, with my wife using the AR-15. Glad we never had to use them against our fellow Floridians. ;)

Blackhawk
March 11, 2003, 01:58 AM
Love it when perps get a two-legged limp on their way to prison. :D

Redlg155
March 11, 2003, 02:01 AM
Hmmm..I'll probably meet the guy someday. If so I'll be sure and ask him of his version of the story. :D

Good Shooting
RED

WonderNine
March 11, 2003, 02:58 AM
I'm glad using a rifle for home defence worked out in this case but it's definitly not for me. I would either hace grabbed a .45 or a shotgun becvause the danger of over penetration using a rifle is just to great.

I hope you never have to face heavily armed (or armored) intruders.

Justin
March 11, 2003, 03:06 AM
From the link to the WFTV website:
The intruder who was shot is in the hospital at ORMC. The sheriff deputy's report lists his name as William Carl Tribble. Well, you know, that's the trouble with Tribble.

I hope you never have to face heavily armed (or armored) intruders. Dude, I hope you don't live in my neighborhood, because I'd be a tad bit unhappy if the rifle round you used went through my window, wall, and then ended up lodging itself somewhere down the hall.:scrutiny:

MitchSchaft
March 11, 2003, 03:30 AM
is gonna put a definite crimp in his prison basketball game.

LMAO!:neener:

twoblink
March 11, 2003, 04:11 AM
<golf clap>

What a stupid and unlucky bastard...

First gets caught, then loses BOTH knees, and then is going to go to jail.. I hear they are making great instrides with plastics knees these days... hehehehe..

I just wish CNN would stop adding the tagline "AK47's, the choice of most terrorists.."
:barf:

Pendragon
March 11, 2003, 04:55 AM
:neener: T-minus 4 months to Florida! :neener:

S_O_Laban
March 11, 2003, 05:33 AM
Well shoot! MItch beat me to it. DItto:D

eagle10
March 11, 2003, 09:05 AM
I saw this on the local news last night. The apartments where he lives is about a mile from my home! It's great to have people who are willing to defend their family and home. I hope he sues the home intruder to pay for pain & suffering of his family and for the replacement of his sliding glass door!!:D

TarpleyG
March 11, 2003, 09:08 AM
Shoulda kill't him. The guy'll sue the homeowner, the gun manufacturer, the ammo manufacturer, the gun shop that sold the gun, the cops, and the government before its all over and probably walk away with enough money to not worry about the lack of kneecaps. You've heard of "suicide by cop", well this is "wealth by stupidity."

GT

Double Naught Spy
March 11, 2003, 11:02 AM
If you are going to use lethal force and suffer the potential legal and civil liability for using lethal force, then using lethal force in a an attempted non-lethal manner (i.e., shooting kneecaps) may be fun, entertaining, and satisfying, but not enough to compensate for the liability.

TechBrute
March 11, 2003, 11:38 AM
You've heard of "suicide by cop", well this is "wealth by stupidity."

hehehehehehe.... :D

If you are going to use lethal force and suffer the potential legal and civil liability for using lethal force, then using lethal force in a an attempted non-lethal manner (i.e., shooting kneecaps) may be fun, entertaining, and satisfying, but not enough to compensate for the liability.

Dead men don't sue or give their side of the story.

Pendragon
March 11, 2003, 11:58 AM
What liability?

If he sues, he has to front cash or go with a contingency lawyer - and they only like to take a "sure thing" - which this is not.

He could tell the jury he was afeard for his life, but wanted to be merciful and spare the life of the miscreant...

People are sick of crime and sympathy for injured criminals is at an all time low.

gun-fucious
March 11, 2003, 12:05 PM
worth keeping:
Shooting Foils Attempted Home Invasion In Hunter's Creek

POSTED: 10:31 a.m. EST March 10, 2003
UPDATED: 4:22 p.m. EST March 10, 2003
http://www.wftv.com/news/2029476/detail.html

ORANGE COUNTY, Fla. -- A man says he was protecting his family when he shot an intruder in the knees.

The Grand Colonial apartment complex, in Hunter's Creek, is a gated community. However, last night, someone got through it. "I just couldn't believe it the guy saw my gun, and he just came into my house. And I had no choice but to shoot him," said the man who didn't want to be identified. He said that he was just trying to protect himself, his girlfriend and her four-year-old daughter.


Two men tried to break into his apartment around midnight, on Monday. First, the robbers tried to kick down the main door. When that didn't work, they walked through the patio door and stood on the porch.


The man could see the two suspected prowlers from his apartment window. That's when he went and got his ak-47, and called 9-1-1. While he was on the phone he could see the man trying to pry open the sliding glass door.

"I told him, again, to stop. He didn't. He actually flicked me off and smiled."

That's when he says he had no choice but to shoot. "I couldn't let him get through the door. Then he'd be next to me and my family, and I couldn't let that happen."

He actually shot the intruder, through the sliding glass door, hitting him in the left knee.

"I mean, the guy kept moving [and I] couldn't see his hands. [It] took everything in my power not to shoot and kill the guy." So, instead, the man shot the invader in the other knee.

He said it was at that point when he saw a second would-be intruder flee the scene.

"Don't think because you live in a nice neighborhood [that] this couldn't happen to you."

A second man was arrested, but deputies have not announced if he is connected to the crime.

The intruder who was shot is in the hospital at ORMC. The sheriff deputy's report lists his name as William Carl Tribble.

Police have the entire 9-1-1 tape recording of the incident. Those tapes cannot release the tapes until they have been reviewed.

Chaz
March 11, 2003, 12:29 PM
Whats the deal with all the home invasions in central Fl? Every time you turn around it's happened again.

I have numerous options available to "repel boarders" and the AK is one of them.



Besides, That HAD to hurt!!! :what:

Cosmoline
March 11, 2003, 12:33 PM
This goes on and on. I suspect this business was started because of the performance of traditional full-power BALL ammo with FMJ bullets. Good HP or SP bullets from an AK or AR simply aren't prone to overpenetration. Given their sectional density it's unlikely the small bullets from these rounds will be in very good shape once they get out the other side. The .223 in particular basically disintegrates.

Besides, a plain miss with a handgun by definition "overpenetrates." If I have to defend my life, overpenetration is the last thing I'll be worried about. I want to hit what I aim at and make sure it no longer poses a threat. A semiautomatic rifle or carbine firing an intermediate cartridge is an excellent way to ensure you outgun your foes.

Gewehr98
March 11, 2003, 01:09 PM
Whats the deal with all the home invasions in central Fl? Every time you turn around it's happened again.

There were some in the Melbourne FL area not too long ago, and even one in Satellite Beach. Methinks it has something to do with Snowbird Season, when they're down here with their money for the winter, nice, juicy targets for the criminal element.

When I was in **********, there were some particularly nasty home invasion robberies in Rancho Cordova, preying on the Cambodian and Vietnamese community there.

A couple started in Citrus Heights along Greenback Lane, but ended rather quickly, thanks to the sound and appearance of a 12-gauge 870 being racked. But I'm saving that one for my published memoirs later. ;)

Chaz
March 11, 2003, 01:17 PM
Could be. I live in Daytona and most of the invasions seem to take place in Orlando and Cocoa/Titusville. I guess I'm getting older because I can remember a time when this would happen maybe twice a year. Now I try to be as dilligent as possible at all times. It drove my wife crazy for a while but now she understand why I want her to lock the doors whenever we are home. I even bought her a pistol and am training her to use it. She wants to CCW when she get more profecient. Also got her to shoot the AK. Man, What a woman!!:D

Byron Quick
March 11, 2003, 01:19 PM
I doubt the perp will find the means necessary to sue for all the items mentioned previously. Florida lawyers have a common failing with Georgia lawyers...they like to get money for their efforts. It won't happen with that kind of junk in Florida or Georgia.

But one thing WILL happen: that hobbling piece of slime will get both of his knees rebuilt at the expense of Florida's taxpayers. Bull. You try breaking into my house and I am applying lethal force as provided in the Georgia Code. I don't think the taxpayers are liable for funeral expenses. And even if they are, cremation is much cheaper than two knee replacement surgeries.

I'm glad the guy protected his family but he did it at a cost to all law abiding Floridians. I'm not wounding criminals by choice...if I hit them in the knees, I missed.

ballistic gelatin
March 11, 2003, 01:30 PM
The article says he fired through the sliding glass door = not good. The perp is supposed to be inside your dwelling before you punch him c/m. Of course getting to hear him cry 'til the cops get there has got to be somewhat satisfying.

ScottsGT
March 11, 2003, 01:54 PM
Yea, but BOTH knees? How's that going to work for the "New Meat On the Block" in prison. His knees are going to be sore for a long time. Not to mention other parts of his anatomy! :what:

TallPine
March 11, 2003, 02:34 PM
The article says he fired through the sliding glass door = not good. The perp is supposed to be inside your dwelling before you punch him

Yeah, sure - just wait for him to finish breaking in. :rolleyes:

Might as well be polite and open the door for him, and then challenge him (the "man in black") to a sword fight. :D

Shalako
March 11, 2003, 07:36 PM
I have always been told you are supposed to empty the magazine when using lethal force. Something about a court of law, being in fear of your life, and shooting to stop the threat.

"So I want to hear 28 more shots outta that AK mister!"

Good luck fixing that with plastic surgery. :cool:

zxc
March 11, 2003, 10:20 PM
man thats a crazy situation. To think the homeowner under the situation has more than a few seconds to assess the threat. Yet the perps forcing the issue here. maybe racking the shottie first as espoused by many. :rolleyes:
memo to home invaders: never flick off the armed homeowner.

Standing Wolf
March 11, 2003, 10:37 PM
It's going to be hard for that criminal to kneel.

MAKOwner
March 12, 2003, 02:07 AM
What kind of complete and total idiot continues to break into a home when confronted with a armed homeowner when you aren't even in the house yet (ie homeowner has plenty of time to think, prepare, load, whatever and then shoot your ***)? ESPECIALLY if it's AK? That guy must have been a total freakin coked out loon or something. That or maybe he thought it was fake???

I would not have fired until he actually got the door open though. And I can honestly say they would not have been non-lethal shots unless I really messed up.

LiquidTension
March 12, 2003, 04:12 AM
Hindsight being 20/20 and all, he should have waited until he could have taken out BOTH of them. Dead men tell no lies, and a little chlorine in the gene pool never killed any- oh wait, yeah I guess it did :D

publius
March 12, 2003, 09:54 AM
The article says he fired through the sliding glass door = not good. The perp is supposed to be inside your dwelling before you punch him c/m.

No, that's not true in FL. According to Florida Firearms Law, Use & Ownership by Jon Gutmacher,

The law basically states that deadly force shall be used only if you reasonably believe that such force is necessary to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony, or prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to yourself or another....Also, you have an absolute duty to retreat if you are not inside your home, or business, or on the curtilage of your dwelling, and you can retreat or escape with reasonable safety.
pages 152-153)

This guy was in his home, witnessing the forcible felony, and the would-be intruder flipped him off? It doesn't get much clearer than that. Deadly force was OK outside the door.

edit: forgot to mention that not only was he witnessing a forcible felony already, he also could reasonably expect that great harm was about to come to him or his family.

ballistic gelatin
March 12, 2003, 10:15 AM
publius,thank you for clarifying my misunderstanding of the actual law. I have been exposed to the old "shoot them and drag them inside" theory for so many years, I have begun to accept it as truth. I suppose I should do more to stay up to date with the ever changing laws and ordinances.

Steel
March 12, 2003, 11:15 AM
but getting kneecapped is gonna put a definite crimp in his prison basketball game.


LOL

:-)

tyme
March 12, 2003, 11:16 AM
(shalako) I have always been told you are supposed to empty the magazine when using lethal force. Something about a court of law, being in fear of your life, and shooting to stop the threat.That's interesting. I always assumed that TV was correct and that shooting someone an excessive (e.g. more than a few solid hits) number of times is a no-no and likely to earn you a trip to the big house, or at least force your lawyer to work overtime convincing a jury that the guy deserved a little more lead than the defendant's relatives would like them to believe.

I know all the stuff about not knowing if the attacker's still a threat, and I can imagine a situation where I would feel compelled to empty a magazine at an intruder if I felt I had to use deadly force and for some reason I wasn't satisfied that the threat had been removed. But what on Earth is a God-fearing jury supposed to think when they see weeping relatives get on the stand and recount the horror of seeing their beloved husband/wife/son/daughter with 10 COM shots? "Justice" and "self defense" are two things that most likely do not run through a juror's mind in that situation.

All those pesky disability act provisions apply to prisons, right? Don't they have wheelchair basketball or something? :)

RustyHammer
March 12, 2003, 11:42 AM
... yeah, but he was REALLY aiming for his shoulders!

Shalako
March 12, 2003, 06:41 PM
My line of thinking was of the sort that if you are in true FEAR for your life, you will not be able to meter out a precise level of force. It seems more defensible to claim that you just started firing and all of a sudden the gun was empty. You were really scared and all.

Well, maybe that wouldn't hold up too well in front of a jury, but never having been in a lethal force incident, I can only imagine that I would be mildly terrified (lose track of rounds fired, etc.)

Putting in a fresh mag would definitely look bad.....

benEzra
March 13, 2003, 01:26 AM
Whats the deal with all the home invasions in central Fl? Every time you turn around it's happened again.
Had another one in Pensacola (Florida panhandle) day before yesterday. Four thugs broke in, beat an 18-year-old girl to death, and started stealing the furniture. Neighbors saw the crooks' van in the yard backed up to the house, got suspicious, and called the girl's mother (who also lived at the house, but was at work) and police. Perps fled, but the police picked up 3 the same day and the last one today. The Pensacola paper said that the crooks are suspected in at least two other recent home invasions.
I have always been told you are supposed to empty the magazine when using lethal force. Something about a court of law, being in fear of your life, and shooting to stop the threat.
In my opinion, one of the advantages for using a rifle in a situation like that is that (1) the threat can be stopped with fewer rounds, on average, and (2) a good defense rifle has a deeper magazine than almost any handgun. Emptying the magazine would be bad tactics, in my opinion, since most of that ammo is best kept IN RESERVE in case the threat has violent accomplices.

It's also not defensible in court. Emptying a 6-shot revolver wouldn't be a problem, but shooting a perpetrator 30 times if he goes down after the second shot would probably get you manslaughter and possibly 2nd-degree murder.

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