[TWBryan]

Once again took the Mossberg 500 ATP (Aluminum Trigger Persuader????) back to the gun range to shoot at the mound of dirt. This time I brought a box of Winchester #6 shells. The box felt a little odd as I was opening it and I ended up having to rip it open. Apparently at some point this box had been exposed to a good deal of moisture, the aluminum on the shells was covered with whitish corrosion. With misgivings in place I loaded up and fired the shells. The first five went through the gun without hiccups. The next twenty I had to hit the bolt release to get the shells out . Yes,after every shot I would try to pull the forearm back to get the shell out,it wouldn't give so I would hit the bolt release to eject the shell. I'm kind of hoping this was ammunition related. I'll try it again next week with some S&B.
Once again the crappy $50.00 light/laser from sportsmansguide survived the ordeal. I did note however that the mount slid forward tot he end of the mag tube, I intend to take a look at shimming it later today. I consider the laser a gimmick and the light more of less essential for home defense.
My rant is regarding the difficulty of finding solid info on any other weapon light for shotguns other than the surefire forend. For the record I do not want a surefire forend. Think about it this way,if you end up having to shoot someone in defense of your life and/or home the police will take possesion of that firearm. I will not cry overmuch to see my $200 mossberg go down the road,possibly to never return. A $200 mossberg with a $250 light on it is quite another matter.
I have to think that the people that recommend the surefire forend are either quite well off or LEO. As a civilian one of the concerns I have is that any firearm of mine in the possession of the police would not be returned,or returned intact. Which is one of the reasons I will never be among the crowd that uses or recommends the high dollar ar-15's for homedefense.
The other peeve is that it seems like the process of choosing a good light and mounting it to a gun has become rocket science :banghead: . I've googled the net many times in the last few weeks,trying to locate a solid review of any tactical light specifically for shotguns. Other than one or two reviews of the surefire forend and some threads in TFL or THR there isn't anything out there :cuss: . After a while I gave up on it. When I get my income tax return I think it likely that I will pick up a Streamlight M3,something that can be used on multiple weapons and doesn't cost all that much. If it doesn't work out, I have in my possession an early B-square mount that allows you to attach a D-cell maglite to the front of the shotgun! Just think: A light that also weighs enough to cut down on the recoil :eek: .

Respectfully,

TWBryan

[proven]

i'm not big on the surefire either, but for other reasons than cost. if having a $250 light on my shotty saved my life, i could care less if it were ever returned. i'd be alive and could eventually replace it. i don't really go high dollar with firearms, but i would never opt for something less expensive (cheaper) because i'm worried it might confiscated.

[Fred Fuller]

TW,

I have come to prefer the M3 setup myself. I like being able to use the light on different platforms as needed, around here there's a 3d generation Glock 19 with a light rail, a homebuilt AR carbine with one added to the right handguard, and a couple of 870s with rails. There will soon be one more 870 fitted with a rail on the mag extension too (once there IS a mag extension). Big advantage to the M3 is that is is purpose built as a weapon light, can handle recoil OK and has both momentary and on/off switching.

I never found a clamp-on mount/flashlight that worked well for me on pumpguns. I _hate_ curly cords. SureFires work, but they are expensive as you noted. My major objection to the ones I have used is that they cramp the forearm- there just isn't much room for a hand on there with the bulge for the light in place. Note that I haven't used the newer models, I am unfamiliar with those.

Any recoil is difficult for clamp-on stuff mounted on cylindrical surfaces to handle and with shotguns that is true in spades. And shotgun recoil is hard on the internal workin's of many otherwise useful light sources, it can drastically shorten their life span. I like being able to easily remove the light for daytime/practice use and install it as needed.

There are some other light mounts around that look promising too- don't mean to shortchange those, I just don't have experience with them.

Stay safe,

lpl/nc

[TWBryan]

Thanks for the responess gentlemen, I appreciate it.

Proven-If you don't mind could you tell me what your objections are to the surefire forend? I'm not trying to start a 'Bash the surefire' thread,I'm just curious. For some people the economic realities are that they could never justify the cost of a single purpose light,I tend to view things from that perspective.

Lee-I appreciate your reply on the M3 light , would you care to comment on roughly how many shotgun rounds it has survived? I too consider versatility a big selling point.

BTW-Discovered reason for mossberg failure to release bolt. A small pin on the hammer had become loose slid over and bound the lever that drops after the trigger has been pulled. I peened it and drove into place. Dryfire test indicates all is well.

TWBryan

[proven]

TWBryan-
i'm not exactly sold on the shotgun light as a whole. they definately have their place. i'm just not convinced i need one yet. my primary HD gun is 1911, with a handheld surefire next to it on the nightstand. my place is small, so if someone came through the door, that's all i'd have time to grab. by the time i got out of bed and to the closet to reach for my 870, the BG would be standing in my bedroom doorway.

as for the surefire...although i agree that it's one of the best weapon lights for a shotty, there are a couple of things i'm not thrilled with. lee touched on there not being a whole lot of room for your hand on the forend. they are a bit bulky and heavy. and i kind of like the idea of the light staying stationary while i rack the slide. might not make much difference to some, but i just think the light should be fixed. if it's on while you rack the slide you could lose your sight picture, because of the motion of the slide moving the light. granted it's minimal, but imagine having a weapon light mounted on the slide of your 1911 (or glock, USP, etc.).

i think if i decide that i need a light, i'll go with the M3.

many will disagree with me, as the surefire is probably the most popular weapon light for a shotty. as always YMMV.

[TWBryan]

Thanks again Proven, for explaining your reasoning. I have to admit I had never considered the forearm movement factor. The surefire must have a good shock absorption system just to survive being racked back and forth. The tactical light is on the whole for civilians a just in case addition to the shotgun. Perhaps my frustration stems from thinking that on the whole choosing a reliable light to fit on the gun shouldn't be so expensive and difficult... :confused:

TWBryan

[Fred Fuller]

"Lee-I appreciate your reply on the M3 light , would you care to comment on roughly how many shotgun rounds it has survived? I too consider versatility a big selling point."

TWB,

Actually not a lot of shotgun rounds so far, my wife and I have both run some rounds on the 870s with the M3 light mounted after dark to be sure how it works and how it affects us. We do most of our practice in the daytime by necessity, if we can get our own small flat range built here at home as we hope to do that will change.

NO light I know of is totally recoil proof. It seems the LED versions are headed that way tho. Lots of people complain about not getting enough light out of an LED. Well, wake up out of a sound sleep, kick on a hi-powered Surefire in a room with light colored walls and a white ceiling and YOU are gonna be blinded to a degree too. Anyone who has not done so should try it.

I have found that the various LED flashlights (from the $6 1- AA cell Dorcy on up) I have produce PLENTY of light for short range interior uses, and see no reason why a suitable weapon mounted light with an LED light source can't do so as well. And there shouldn't be any need for such a light to cost more than the gun it mounts on either.

Maybe someone will eventually figure out that ol' John Q. only needs to see across the room or down the hall when he gets awakened by strange noises at night, and doesn't really need to unleash light equivalent to a nuclear detonation to be able to effectively defend his home. Maybe someone will eventually figure out that there are a lot more John Q.'s out there than there are supersecret usgovt approved counterterrorist operators and swat teams and various other flavors of kickers and shooters, and that Ol' John (who has to pay for his kid's braces too) would like a good dependable weapon light for less than a car payment.

Maybe...

lpl/nc

[sm]

I am NOT qualified, as I have not put enough rds downrange in all my years shooting shotguns. Listen to Lee, Dave, El Tejon, Preacherman, read SWAT and see what Awerbuck says...etc.

Once upon a time before the "T" word was overused and mis-used I did in fact play with mounting lights on shotguns. <gasp>. The need was for if Power was cut, along with alarm system, and emergency was either compromised, or one would face BG's were the light was not.

I had extra forearms for a 870 and 1300. I used a 2 AA Garrity rubber flashlight with the button on the base and mounted it using some homemade "C" clamps to the 1300. Yes it worked and did not fail due to recoil, NO it did not have the candlepower as lights today.

Same homemade "C" clamps for the 870. This time I had a small 3 AA light I found somewhere- name escapes me, this one had the "on" and "intermittent" button as a regular flashlight does, this one held up as well.

I drilled small holes into the forearm, I made the screws, lock washers and hollow shims/ bushings from brass stock. Shims/ bushings went into the hole I drilled thru the wood, I had "turned down" the brass screw so I had a "head "with a screw slot in it.

I then made smooth brass nuts, to fit and snugged onto with the brass lockwashers, I then made a smooth "capped" bolt ( forget the common name) to fit over this - nothing was sharp , nothing caught on anything.

The brass "C" clamps had "shrink tape" applied, this really gripped the lights. I didn't have to remove the light to install new batteries. I never had to replace the bulbs - but I could have without taking light off forearm.

It served very very well for a tool for a specific task I had in mind...some 25 yrs ago.

[TWBryan]

Lee-Your reply was a breath of fresh air for me. I have long suspected that the uber lights were not a civilian necessity. I can certainly see there use in a leo/military area,but as you say for interior use the LED lights are adequate. It is just that I have so often read statements from various posters,reviews,etc stating that the LED lights are "providing adequate light to work by". The statement does not fill me with confidence. I do not own one of Awerbucks books,nor will I be able to take his classes in the foreaeeable future. From a review by someone who had taken one of his classes they stated that he requires a good quality "white light" and a shotgun sling as essential items. I believe however that Awerbucks's classes are primarily geared towards training LEO. I did reread my copy of Stressfire Volume II by Massad Ayoob,the book is a bit dated,but he did mention how impressed he was by the latest mounted lights.
I am in the stage where BA\UU\R is most helpful. I am not a gear junky,but I do want to buy a decent light as I think it would be the useful thing to have on the shotgun. As for the sling ,if the gun jams or runs dry in the midst of social interaction,I'm ditching it and going for my handgun. I appreciate your reply,and may reconsider my choice of a light,as I originally wanted to mount an Inova X5 on it.

SM-Thank you for your reply, I was most interested in how you created integral light mounts with the forearms. I am an improviser and do-it-your-selfer myself and the thought of doing what you describe crossed my mind. Could you possibly tell me at what range you were using those penlights at? I would think a good quality LED flashlight would probably shine as far as a standard 2-AA penlight. I'd definitely like to change my choice to an Inova X5 if it's a useable substitute. I appreciate the chance to learn from other's experience here,as it's been a while since seriously considered a shotgun.


TWBryan

[rockstar.esq]

I'm not a LEO nor am I wealthy. I agree with you regarding the nearly obscene costs of "Tactical lights" I know that some folks are really enamored with the idea of a light on their gun. More power to them. Real SWAT guys are carrying a light on each gun and carrying a seperate flashlight. After all we know they don't want someone to simply "shoot at the light". The idea is to use these tools inteligently. Now maybe you will be the victim of a highly organized strike force hell bent on the invasion and control of your bedroom. Then perhaps that light will truly be a blessing. The humble shotgun is a great home defense tool that can really even the odds in a bad situation. However you know where the light switches are in your home. You also know where the phone is, the other occupants, etc. Maybe you should consider a handheld flashlight since you'd be able to use it for most if not all of your intended uses. If the light was small enough, you could hold it against the forend of your shotgun. No offense intended but your homes lighting, properly used will render a "tactical" advantage when you are "looking for the BG" . I would think that we'd all be better off not having to shoot in the first place. The lights going on would deter most burglars . Just my opinion!

[ibbryn]

The "white light" Awerbuck and other ubertactical guys want you to get is designed to be used as a weapon. Its proper use could prevent you from having to fire your shotgun at all.

The Surefire lights are bright enough (60+lumes) that they will temporarily blind and disorient anyone who has one shined in their eyes. This gives you the advantage in manuavering or issuing commands to the intruder ("Don't move or I'll blow your head off with my bad-ass shotgun").

While a LED or Minimag taped to your shotgun will provide enoungh light for you to SEE by, it also lets you be seen and does not give you any other tactical advantage.

The blinding tactical uber lights allow you to use thier momentary on/off switch to strobe a darkened room (Light on-see what's out there, light off-move to new position, Light on-see....) and to id and control the target once found.

The Surefire fore end (or something similar) is necessary because it is extremely difficult to manipulate the weapon, light, cell phone, extra ammo, etc. while stressed. The fore end keeps the light and weapon in your hand at the same time.

[Omaha-BeenGlockin]

Waiting for my Surefire forend to get in stock---only been a month so far :banghead:

[proven]

The blinding tactical uber lights allow you to use thier momentary on/off switch to strobe a darkened room (Light on-see what's out there, light off-move to new position, Light on-see....) and to id and control the target once found.

in most cases it's best for a homeowner to "hole up" in a bedroom with 911 on the phone. the flash...bang...move technique would be of more use to a tactical team member.

and as for the blinding the BG with a surefire...what if the BG is coming through your house with gun drawn, and as soon as you light up to identify the target, he points and pulls the trigger, before you can even id him/her. just a thought.

if someone enters my place uninvited, i'd rather they not know exactly where i am until i have them identified and have tactical advantage (gun trained on them while maintaining sufficient cover).

[TWBryan]

Again thanks for the responses

Rockstar esq- You make a good point on utilizing home lighting. The only problem I see is if the power goes out I won't have it.As I live alone there should be no one else there in my home,so I am not particularly worried that I will be putting the light on anyone who does not need to be shot.

ibbryn-Blinding someone with the xenon bulb light is a neat concept,I just don't think it's something I could ever get myself to depend on. I view the light as a source of illumination, the shotgun and the mind behind it is the weapon.

Proven-Again good advice,homeowners should barricade themselves whenever feasible,leave house clearing to swat personnel. Lights on weapons seem to be a double-edged sword,they reveal both ways;but I have come to view the concept as a sometimes necessary evil.

At this point I am really leaning towards fastening one of the new model Inova X5t's to the shotgun; it has a momentary on switch in the buttcap and probably produces sufficient lumens for indoor ranges.

Thanks Again

TWBryan

[Al Thompson]

Proven, the Surefire light will indeed zap the heck out of someone who's eyes have dialated. I tried this with mine a few times and returning fire is tough - lots of blinking and waiting for the afterimages to fade.... :D

[sm]

Umm, granted the first one I tested for "distance" was Me behind a large safe where I had a Hidey Hole where I planned to stay until the Calvary rode up.

I kinda subscribe to the Richard Pryor method of room clearing ( which I will paraphrase for Grammaw's sake)

I did not venture down that dark alley - as there may have been 3 or 4 dudes with a baseball bat :D

Hey - I am a civilian , I don't get paid to go run around in the dark, not when I can hide, call the Calvary, sit tight. Now if they come to me...I'm still here ain't I?

Actually I could ID a target very well out to 15 steps with the 2 AA and 21 with the 3AA. Yes I had tested it. Yes that was me in a dark store with an unloaded shotgun, having my boss behind cover toss out different colored balloons. I wanted to know how well in fact I could ID something. Different colors show different in flashlight - lighting btw. He also tossed out colored marshmellows - I needed to know how small I could actually see detail. Then the dog got into the act and went after the marshmellows. Testing proved very educational. I safed the gun [loaded and put up where kept]. It was then time to laugh at the dog eating mellows.

Maybe I am nuts, but I learned a lot about matters by my low tech methods and testing.

As I said before - listen and learn from those that HAVE had training, and are trained in this stuff. I have not attended any recognized schools. I have been "taught" some things from folks that have attended, or were in Professions.

Understand as well - this was a long time ago. We didn't have some methods or equipment back then. Before the interenet was a medium of information exchange as it is today.

Now I have beentaught to use a regular flashlight. I mean the old chrome ones with glass lenses, constant on / intermittent button. Then the Mag-Light [tm] brand came out. This dates me - I know.

I have carried a Solitare [tm] 1AAA light, the ASP blue sapphire lights. I have used these with shotguns and handguns. I learned the advantages/ disadvantages of the ones that stay on all the time, the ones one must keep pressed to stay on. I keep breaking my ASP blue sapphires. I am now using an Inova key ring light. This one allows one to press , OR on can push a button to stay on all the time. I prefer the blue light, better for my night vision.

I have some experiences and tips shared with these -reason why I went with this one. You can turn it on ( palmed) and toss 'over there" to distract and run like hell. Or the BG will reveal himself. I have been shooting my CCW pc with this light btw.

Now I haven't seen one in person, and I cannot tell from the brocure, there is a Inova ( a couple of them) that are small, very light and I cannot tell if the switch is on the base or not. I am curious becasue these might prove useful for the homeowner on a budget.

More promise for anyone who carried a CCW - heck I find having a keychain light very valuable just in everyday stuff. So even if I am just crossing a parking lot, having a light to assist me is good, gives me and added light if need if something serious should occur while on that parking lot, and all I have is my CCW.

I am more concerned with entering and leaving the premises. I therefore CCW. I have entered premises and the lights were out...and I have beat feet back the way I came. Having a keyring light is just smart.

The reality is - we don't always put on a "bat belt" and tote 12 ga guns around, with a sidesaddle and light.

11pm and half asleep in a chair, the patio glass breaks, the lights are out, the wife and kids are down the hall , upstairs...

Whatcha gonna do right that moment?

I have on person a CCW, and my Inova. You?

I also subscribe to kids having a light in their room in case of a fire. The Garrity Dispoable ones are great, put a laynard on them so kids can wear around the neck. Kids are taught the family fire drill,light around the neck and turned on- the lights allows them to be seen, and gives the kids some feeling of "safe".

I have nothing against Surefires, Streamlights and lights on guns. I just know in reality not everyone can afford them, nor will they train with them. I also know many times the "emergency" where a light is needed is not going to require a firearm.

One has to think outside the box for their own layout, situations and needs.

I'm probably wrong tho'

[sm]

In reply to an email that the person requested I reply on the forum.

Again - I have no problem with light mounted on a firearm, in this case shotguns.

Again - Do seek training from Awerbuck , anyone. Heck, buy his books, I plan to.

MY perspective is simple. Folks do disagree and that is fine.

Get a gun that fits YOU. NOT what fits others or some flowered shirted writer taking a break from writing about volleyball. Get CORRECT basic fundamentals down pat and practice these CORRECTLY. Make sure the gun and ammo is reliable - 200 rds of any loading is suggested.

After you have done all this including Dave's BA/UU /R , getting training will THEN better prepare you and better suggest to YOU if you need anything added to the shotgun - including a light.

IMO -

Folks that are better able to defend themselves have w-a-y more money invested in ammo than stuff done to a shotgun.

Show me guy that has shot 5 cases of ammo thru a $150 used stock shotgun , and my money says he can and will defend himself better than the guy that has NOT shot his gun very much, instead has invested time and money on bolting stuff on.

[TWBryan]

SM- Thanks for your response to my questions and those posed by another. Your replies on distance pretty much confirmed my suspicions in regards to the suitability of the flashlight I am considering. As a matter of fact I do carry a maglite solitaire on a daily basis. As I have had one other solitaire that gave up the ghost w/o warning I may well replace it with a small led light. BTW I too recall when the first maglites came out,or rather when became more widespread ;) . I'll agree I need to spend a lot more time sending ammo downrange, I try to work in at least 25 rnds a week into my range day. More practice more better. I will ask one question,of anyone reading this, what text would you recommend to anyone considering home defense with a shotgun?

Again thanks to all for replies

TWBryan

[proven]

Proven, the Surefire light will indeed zap the heck out of someone who's eyes have dialated. I tried this with mine a few times and returning fire is tough - lots of blinking and waiting for the afterimages to fade....

al-
i have no doubt that a surefire would momentarily blind someone. my post was to provoke the thought that BGs don't have to identify their target. if they've come into a house without invitation, are armed, and willing to kill whoever gets in their way...they're probably going to point and bang! at the first thing they come across. especially if you catch them off-guard and startle them. i just think that a BG with a gun drawn coming through the house would get a shot (or two) off while the homeowner is "blinding" him/her and positively IDing them. not a sure thing. but a good chance i might think.

i'm not against weapon lights or handhelds. i have a surefire kept w/ my 1911. i just believe that there needs to be serious thought put into the tactics involved when using a light. and cover should never be left out of the equation. for the most part i think that mounted weapon lights are of more use to entry teams, swat, hrt and the like. alot of your shotgun classes are geared towards the same. i agree with being very proficient with your chosen HD weapon, but it seems to me that some of the tactics tought at highend classes are a bit over zealous for your typical HD situation.

i could go on but i'm running this thread off course. these are just some thoughts i've had lately.


be well