dang airports!


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ballistic gelatin
March 11, 2003, 01:20 PM
Is it just me or have the airports gone a little overboard with this whole sharp instrument confiscation thing? I have had to forfeit two swiss army pocket knives in the past year at the same airport. The knives were the small ones that fit on a keychain with one blade, one file, pair of scissors, tweezers and toothpick.

http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20030311/capt.1047394055.airport_security_nyet203.jpg:banghead: :cuss: :fire:

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El Tejon
March 11, 2003, 01:30 PM
bg, but don't you FEEL safer?:(

Spackler
March 11, 2003, 01:35 PM
If you knew that the first one was confiscated, why did you take another with you the next time?

I have some knowledge of the screeners and their processes. The sentiment among those I know seems to be that it's a bit silly taking small swiss army knives and folding scissors from little old ladies. However, they don't make the rules, but just follow them.

Looking at the photo that you attached, I can't imagine why somebody would think they carry a utility knife on the plane. What planet have they been living on for the past year-and-a-half?

Azrael256
March 11, 2003, 01:43 PM
While I do think this "security" bit is a joke, you do kinda have to scratch your head wondering about the guy who tries to bring gardening tools on an airplane.

STW
March 11, 2003, 01:47 PM
The article in our local paper that accompanied that picture said they even confiscated a trailer hitch from somebody. I know I feel naked with all I have to leave home when I fly now.

I'm a bit anxious about the critical thinking skills of the folks in charge when they started taking company required multi-tools from UAL pilots. It seemingly hasn't dawned on somebody that the pilots don't need a knife to gain control of the airplane. :banghead:

Pilot
March 11, 2003, 01:54 PM
Its all about making Soccer Moms feel safer, not about actually preventing anything. What a joke.

spacemanspiff
March 11, 2003, 02:21 PM
no flame intended, but how is it that people still forget that they have items on their person that they KNOW airline security will take away from them?
i have a sneaking suspicion that these same people are also the ones who "forget" that they have metal objects in their pockets and have to walk through the metal detector 3 or 4 times and empty 3 or 4 pockets before being able to proceed.

how difficult is it while you are waiting in line at an airport checkpoint to get all your pockets searched and all change, keys, etc ready to dump into the tray and walk through without the *beep*? how difficult is it to put any item you KNOW wont make it through security in your luggage?

like i said though, no flame intended. just dont take offense when i'm behind you in line and am grumbling about the 'idiot that cant figure out how this metal detector DETECTS METAL OBJECTS'...
:cuss:

TallPine
March 11, 2003, 02:26 PM
This is why I won't fly anymore - I don't want to end up like Tom Hanks on some remote island without my Swiss army knife :)

Russ
March 11, 2003, 02:36 PM
They probably took those scissors of 80 year old ladies.

TallPine
March 11, 2003, 03:00 PM
What did they suppose someone was going to do with the crescent wrench ...?

dav
March 11, 2003, 03:04 PM
All the scissors I can kinda understand. Maybe. Even that crescent wrench in the bottom left. But that sure looks like a diaper safety pin just above it...
Did they at least let the baby keep its diaper?
Sheesh... :rolleyes:

TarpleyG
March 11, 2003, 03:42 PM
If you really wanted to get a "knife" on board you could just buy one of those plastic jobbies you see at the gun shows and cram it in your undies. Do they really think they are stopping criminals with these tactics? No, just the regular Joe.

GT

jsalcedo
March 11, 2003, 04:01 PM
When I worked for a the MIS dept of a fast food chain
all I had with me was my tool kit: cutters, wrenches, screwdriver,
and software. Since I was running from airport to airport
it would have been ridiculous for me to check a bag the size of a
shaving kit and very likely it would be lost and I would have no tools for my job.

Everyday I carrried box cutters and other sharp objects in my tool kit as needed with no problems. thankfully I ended my employment there just prior to 9/11. I guess all the techs have to check their bags now.

DJJ
March 11, 2003, 04:17 PM
What are the things that look like plastic toothbrush holders? Like a plastic cylinder with a knob with a hole through it on one end? There's a yellow one center left, one red & one blue lower left, and two yellows & a blue upper right. There's also a white one, head only, right above the head of the crescent wrench, with what looks like a hypodermic needle sticking out.

Don't tell me they're someone's insulin or epinephrine syringe! Will fed.gov take responsibility for someone's peanut allergy reaction or diabetic coma (don't answer that :rolleyes: )?

ballistic gelatin
March 11, 2003, 04:31 PM
What are the things that look like plastic toothbrush holders?They're corkscrews. I actually did forget about my little swiss since it is always attached to my keys and they are in my pocket. I didn't remember til I emptied my pockets in the little basket. Then I was like...DOH!...and the guy saw it...bye bye little knife. Of course I stowed the spare swiss in the big suitcase and it was available when I picked up my bags from the baggage claim. You can transport knives as long as they're in a bag that is under the plane.

DJJ
March 11, 2003, 04:40 PM
They're corkscrews.

"TAKE THIS PLANE TO CUBA OR I'LL SERVE UP SOME LOUSY AIRLINE WINE!!"

elnhez
March 11, 2003, 04:46 PM
I don't know how accurate this is, however, this morning I heard on the radio news a report regarding all the "weapons" that have been confiscated at airports.

Although I don't recall all the items, most were similar to what we see in the above picture ...
but they mentioned one that jumped out at me:

a ten-inch circular saw. :what:

now, we all know that power tools can be dangerous. especially, when supplied with power. but i don't recall ever seeing 110-vac outlets on an airplane. perhaps the danger would lie in flinging the blade like a (ninja) frizbee. of course, that would require a wrench to dissemble the blade from the saw, and we all know that wrences are verboten ...

on the other hand, given today's feel-safe environment, what kind of yahoo would bring his power tools on an airplane?

anyway, just thought that was kinda interesting.

also: anyone see any golf tees in the photo? had a friend who was relieved of his shortly after 9-11. not that it surprised me, but that seemed quite a stretch. i did forget to ask him if they were plastic or wooden ... might make a difference. :rolleyes:

J Miller
March 11, 2003, 04:52 PM
spacemanspiff said;
how difficult is it while you are waiting in line at an airport checkpoint to get all your pockets searched and all change, keys, etc ready to dump into the tray and walk through without the *beep*? how difficult is it to put any item you KNOW wont make it through security in your luggage?

I can't speek for any one else. But on every unfortunate occasion that I have had to go through a metal detector I always empty ALL my pockets, take of my glasses, and still I will set off the detector.
I have no metal in my boots, only a small belt buckle. I'll still set them off. I tell the operators this before I ever walk through.
They always disbelieve me. I don't know why this happens, but I'm fairly sure I would set it off if I walked through in my underwear.
So in my case at least if your ever behind me, I'll let you have cuts.:D

pax
March 11, 2003, 05:21 PM
Half the posts above are people asking "Why would anyone bring a _________ on an airplane?"

Uh, folks, it used to be a free country.

The scissors could be used (along with a stack of paper and some crayons) to entertain a small child. The box cutter could have been left in some workman's pocket, ditto leatherman tools and screwdrivers. The garden spade could have been part of some young woman's housewarming present to her sister who was going to meet her at the other end of her flight ...

Every one of those items has a peaceful and useful purpose -- on board an airplane or off one.

Maybe the folks who brought those items into the airport and made the metal detectors beep are all morons.

More likely, though, they just haven't yet gotten used to living under police-state rules.

pax

The usual road to slavery is that first they take away your guns, then they take away your property, then last of all they tell you to shut up and say you are enjoying it. -- James A. Donald

Spackler
March 11, 2003, 05:48 PM
Half the posts above are people asking "Why would anyone bring a _________ on an airplane? Uh, folks, it used to be a free country.

Sorry, but that doesn't cut it with me.
First, "free country" has nothing to do with what you can carry on board a commercial aircraft.

I can understand mistakenly having a small swiss army knife attached to your keychain just because you forgot it's there, but anybody who knowingly tries to bring a utility knife or saw blade or axe onto the plane is an idiot. Unless they've been living under a rock for the last 17 months, people should know better.

Scissors, by the way, are still allowed if they are the small, blunt-ended variety (like children's scissors).

UnknownSailor
March 11, 2003, 06:12 PM
But i don't recall ever seeing 110-vac outlets on an airplane.

Lavatories. They have a standard 3 prong dual outlet plug.

elnhez
March 11, 2003, 07:16 PM
pax:

i do in fact agree wholeheartedly with you ...

what used to be considered everyday, household or utilitarian items are now, um, weapons, because of their potential for harm if used with bad intent.
hoplophobic paranoia doesn't only apply to firearms.

used to be, i'd fly with a case folder on my belt, and, true story, they let me through with that but searched my guitar -- not the guitar case, the actual guitar because it had a preamp and battery and triggered the metal detector. go figure.

but, back on topic, my reference to the circular-saw-weilding potential fear-mongering terrorist ;)
was merely that, in these days of feel-good, feel-safe, bliss-ninny nanny-ing, any one with half a brain should know that certain items should not be on your person when entering secured areas of airports. and, it seems, saws are on that list. i did not call him a moron -- merely a yahoo.

now i'm not saying this is right; but it is what it is. and if this false security saves just one sheople from feeling the slightest anxiety, so be it.

and this is why i no longer fly. because i despise being herded and demeaned and disarmed and treated as a criminal on account of my mere presence. until "airport security" grows up a bit, i'll not support the airlines or the .gov (thru their tarriffs on flights) with my dollars.

so perhaps we are more on the same page than my original post would indicate.

oh, and unknown sailor: yeah, i forgot about lavatories. didn't really think of it, as i'm imagining a guy with a plugged in circular saw (8-ft cord?) running up & down the aisle, cutting his way, um, well, er, perhaps out of the airplane?? nope, simply can't have that sort of thing going on now, can we?

spacemanspiff
March 11, 2003, 07:32 PM
So in my case at least if your ever behind me, I'll let you have cuts.

how much you wanna bet that the ONLY time i'd set off the detector and need a cavity search is if i cut ahead of you? :banghead:

Larry Ashcraft
March 11, 2003, 08:04 PM
Well, I'm going to brave the airlines in a few weeks to go to Oklahoma City, so... I'll search my pockets.

Left front; money clip, oops, has a knife in it, no money clip. Pocket knife, that goes too.
right front; keys, uh-oh, 2 knives on my keychain, no keychain, nailclippers, verboten.

OK, all I have left is change, is that OK?

Kidding aside, about 3 years ago, we flew to Kentucky to help my daughter and son in law build a fence. We took a NAIL GUN with batteries and fuel in a small suitcase, never even got a second look.

Ahh, the old days...

elnhez
March 11, 2003, 08:14 PM
okay, one more quick true story.

i was flying from chicago to ft. lauderdale, and back. late seventies.

fly from chicago, case folder on belt (as mentioned above), no problem. it was winter, so i had a winter coat with me.

when returning from ft. lauderdale, had the folder on my belt, big winter coat over my arm. go through the metal detector, and this time it goes off. i put my coat down, returned thru the detector, showed my belt buckle, keys, knife, etc. they approved all this, scanned me, and allowed me through.

but remember, i had placed my coat on the other side of the metal detector in the "secure" area. and there it sat, untouched, till i picked it up after being passed thru. could've had anything in that coat, and it never got checked.

had to chuckle at that one.

CWAdams
March 11, 2003, 08:38 PM
As a REALLY frequent traveler --- I keep a padded mailing envelope, self-addressed and stamped, in my briefcase. That way, if I "remember that I forgot" to pack my knife in my checked bag (or leave in my desk at my "other" office), I can mail it to myself, from the airport. Has saved a Buck folder twice, and a Benchmade once!!
(Yeah, I know, I'm forgetful!!)

Harold Mayo
March 11, 2003, 08:56 PM
First, "free country" has nothing to do with what you can carry on board a commercial aircraft.

Yes it does. It has to do with freedom of choice. The more restrictions, the less free.

ballistic gelatin
March 12, 2003, 10:25 AM
This sort of thing should be a BIG RED FLAG that we are no longer a free society. The majority of sheep are only concerned about feeling safe. "It's the governments responsibility to keep me safe"

Spackler
March 12, 2003, 12:03 PM
The fact that I can't carry a simple defensive tool such as OC Spray in the DC Metro is of more concern to me than the fact that I can't take my swiss army knife on to an airplane.

Drjones
March 12, 2003, 02:52 PM
No, no, no....

You guys have it all wrong.

They take the corkscrews away to keep the FRENCH off of our planes!!!

:neener:

Drjones
March 12, 2003, 02:55 PM
Seriously though, the last time I flew about a month ago, I was almost in tears.

Really.

I was so disgusted. I came very close to crying.

The whole time I was watching people scurrying to empty their pockets, take off their shoes, belts, etc., and some get pulled aside (actually, I was pulled aside too...) and "wanded," all I could think was, "They have won."

:(

ballistic gelatin
March 12, 2003, 09:18 PM
all I could think was, "They have won."Dude, they have won.

Spackler
March 12, 2003, 09:20 PM
Oh, for crying out loud. Boo hoo.

ballistic gelatin
March 12, 2003, 09:24 PM
We're gonna' be those people who lived under the city in "Demolition Man". Of course, that is if we don't get placed into a reform camp.

Drjones
March 12, 2003, 09:27 PM
Dude, they have won.

That's what I said!

Oh, for crying out loud. Boo hoo.

I'm sorry you don't think that the fact that we are now treated like prisoners at airports is worth getting upset about.

It felt like a police state.

If that doesn't scare, anger, and sadden the *&%&^% out of you, that is sad.

Esky
March 13, 2003, 11:40 AM
I agree with Drjones-

Not only is it that we are now living in a police state- or "states" as the USA isn't the only place this happens-

but this is often nothing less than THEFT. California is now selling the stuff they confiscate on ebay (there's a link somewhere but I don't remember where- anybody have it?) Lots of anecdotes about people losing jewelry too in these shakedowns, like you could hijack a plane with a necklace or something....

It's disgusting.

And worse, it doesn't make anyone any safer, it's just feelgood lets-look-like-we're-doing-something liberal bull****.

I'd like to be on a plane where someone took out a boxcutter meaning harm... but I probably wouldn't even be able to get close enough to the action to even kick the corpse of the jerk who tried it. We aren't the innocents that we once were, I'm sad to say.

I also think that CCW holders should be able to fly at reduced rates, if they promise to be armed & ready, so obviously I'm way out on the lunatic fringe!

Esky

(lets all have our id numbers tattooed on our butts, at least we can moon them when they want to know who we are!)

Yohan
March 13, 2003, 12:05 PM
Hmmm- What if there was a gun made entirely out of rubber and pepsi and maybe some duct tape? I think I'm onto something here...

*suspiciously looks around and rolls out of view*

ballistic gelatin
March 13, 2003, 12:16 PM
I'll bet a dollar to a donut that they will not allow you to transport a roll of duct tape onto an airplane.

0007
March 13, 2003, 12:24 PM
BG, no bet, my wife keeps (used to anyway) a small roll of duct tape in her carry-on bag and had it confiscated because it could "be used to tie someone up" in the words of the guy who needed a roll of duct tape... I wish someone would bring back the ocean liners. I think I'd take a chance on the Titanic II rather then fly on a US carrier.

Spackler
March 13, 2003, 02:18 PM
Interestingly, according to TSA list of permitted and prohibited items, corkscrews are not prohibited items and should not be confiscated. Knitting and crochet needles are also permitted, as are nail clippers, nail files, plastic or metal scissors with blunt tips, canes, umbrellas, and eyeglass screwdrivers.

One item of interest specifically named as permitted is "Toy Transformer Robots".

Duct tape is not listed as a prohibited item.

I think many screeners just don't know what is allowed and what isn't. When in doubt, ask to speak to the supervisor.

TallPine
March 13, 2003, 02:23 PM
How about a pair of ice skates, just in case you crash and are stuck on a deserted island?

:D

spacemanspiff
March 13, 2003, 03:02 PM
toy transformer robots are allowed???

quick, anyone have the Megatron transformer??? wasnt that transformable into a pistol with a shoulder stock? and there was another decepticon that was purple and transformed into a laser pistol that had flashing lights and noises when you pulled the trigger.
dang things are worth a small fortune now. :fire:

ballistic gelatin
March 13, 2003, 03:03 PM
Ice Skates, when used correctly can mimic the effects of a Ninja Sword.

Al Thompson
March 13, 2003, 03:18 PM
TSA = Thousands Standing Around.... Taking Scissors Away...

The folks I know at TSA have some common sense. When I flew a lot, the rent-a-cops were pathetic. Have not flown since 9/11.

TallPine
March 13, 2003, 04:08 PM
Ice Skates, when used correctly can mimic the effects of a Ninja Sword.

you didn't get it ....


Also can be tied to a stick and used like an axe to open coconuts.

ballistic gelatin
March 13, 2003, 04:24 PM
http://web.planet.nl/specials/oscars2001/pics/castaway.jpg

I'm not a smart man Jenny...

beckrodgers
March 13, 2003, 04:30 PM
In a word yes. We have made a decision here not to allow ourselves to be subjucated ,searched ,or humiliated by these #$%^& type people so we aint flying while all this bs is going on & we are paying them to do this to us . We got the air lines on the ropes anyway. Lets not give in until the govt backs way off. Oh , they dont want us to travel & communicate anyway. Keep us boxed in/broke/demoralized/&very skeerd/depedendant on them to protect us. Drive down the road in a very few yrs PAPERS PLEASE; its already set up seat belts,tags, dls,insurance, & now by god smoking while driving. Random checks & the use ful idiots performing them under threat of violence & arrest. Yes, its gone to far & we need to push it off , back while we can. THANKS

Ed
March 13, 2003, 04:48 PM
I read in Sundays paper that they allow nail clippers and transformers again. As a side note: I used to fly all the time with knives but on my honeymoon coming home in the Miami airport the lady took my Benchmade and held the blade across her hand and said I couldn't take it because it was to long. I asked her what she meant and she said that if it went across he hand it was to long. I asked where that rule was written...She couldn't remember.. I didn't feel like argueing and bags were already under the plane so I had to put my little ole knife in a Cardboard garmet bag for the flight. Now everything goes into my bags and its a cheap knife since a Benchmade CQC7 mysteriously made its way out of my shaving kit, through my clothes and out of my suitcase. The knife was kind enough to zip the bag back during the escape.;)

ballistic gelatin
March 13, 2003, 05:11 PM
beckrodgers - tell me what I can do that will make a difference. otherwise, we're screwed. Yeh, I do see auto checks at least at every state line in a few years and you better not be transporting any firearms at least without a CCW at first, then not at all. But then, I've been referred to as a gunnut, extremist, weirdo, alarmist, instigator, jerk, and many, many other things.

Oleg Volk
March 13, 2003, 05:23 PM
http://matthewbracken.web.aplus.net/excerptlast.htm on that topic

SquirrelNuts
March 13, 2003, 06:05 PM
I am an amateur radio operator, and I used to carry a lot of radios with me when going to (gulp) Chicago as a stop to (gulp) Canada. I once had six radios in my bag that I put through the scanner. The operator asked me if it was a bomb, I said "no, they are radios." He motioned me through without even opening the bag. I think I was 15, which would be 1996.

I came back from Canada one year with a cooler full of fish. The cooler was fine as far as size for a carry-on, but was too large to fit on the belt of the x-ray machine at Midway in Chicago. They just left me through without opening it. This was maybe 1997 or 1998.

-SquirrelNuts

Spackler
March 13, 2003, 07:27 PM
Small and large mouth Bass are permitted to be carried-on, however Muskie are prohibited.

LiquidTension
March 14, 2003, 05:01 AM
Hey guys, I just thought of this. I'm sure I'm not the first, but I haven't seen it mentioned on here.

Why not sharpen the edge of a quarter? It would probably pass through a checkpoint if it was with some other change, and could be used as a small knife if needed. It's pretty sad that we have to start thinking like terrorists just to get useful tools on an airplane :(

I've only flown on a commercial jet twice, and I don't plan to again until these ridiculous restrictions are lifted (which I don't expect will ever happen).

S_O_Laban
March 14, 2003, 05:34 AM
quote:Small and large mouth Bass are permitted to be carried-on, however Muskie are prohibited.

LOL I don't know why but thats just flat funny:D :D

ballistic gelatin
March 14, 2003, 09:54 AM
I work in a courthouse. I have connections with the Bailiff's. They show me all their collectible firearms and we talk about guns and badguys and the distortion of the law, etc. etc. They are some really good, old, retirees.

They showed me a publication a few weeks ago that had pictures and descriptions of non-metal weapons that could be smuggled through checkpoints and metal detectors. There were really some good ideas in there. Of course it was meant to educate the LEOs on what to look for.

Quantrill
March 14, 2003, 10:35 AM
Airport Security made my 5 year old grandson take off his shoes to get on the plane. I never take a plane anymore unless it is absolutely necessary. What a joke the whole charade is. And the airlines are losing money. I wonder why. And now the taxpayer is supposed to bail them out. Quantrill

wingman
March 14, 2003, 10:45 AM
"Airport Security made my 5 year old grandson take off his shoes to get on the plane. I never take a plane anymore"


Same here, I won't fly commerical any more, (I know some people due to there jobs cannot take this stand) but for me I it's the loss of freedom, rudeness of airport workers, just is not worth the effort. My feeling is if they want to strip
search little kids and old ladies let them
go broke.:cuss:

ballistic gelatin
March 14, 2003, 11:13 AM
I read somewhere that silence is also perceived as approval. If we dont' tell somebody about our discontent, they won't know what to change. I mean, the leaders represent the people, right?:D

voilsb
March 14, 2003, 05:05 PM
I keep a bicycle tool in my backpack, in case I need it (I bike most everywhere I go).

well, last time I flew I used my backpack as my carry-on (pretty typical). I forgot about the bike tool till after I checked my baggage, but figured "it's no big deal. it's a bicycle tool."

wrong.

they made me go back through security and check it with the airline, then come back through and get searched again.

I asked the security guy "what do they think I'm gonna do, dismantle the airplane?" and he made a comment about how his ball-point pen was a more effective weapon than my bike tool, but since they banned all tools, of any size, on the plane ... it had to get checked.

he agreed it was stupid, but he was just the guy who enforced the rules.

Drjones
March 14, 2003, 05:20 PM
he agreed it was stupid, but he was just the guy who enforced the rules.

This is at least the second or third time I've seen this said in this thread.

It scares me to death.

"Well, I didn't have anything against the Jews personally, but it was just my job to fill the chamber with gas...."

:uhoh:

:cuss:

There is no evil worse than the indifference of good men....

voilsb
March 14, 2003, 05:24 PM
I wasn't thinking about it quite that way, but I certainly was thinking it was dumb that he was enforcing a policy he doesn't agree with at all.

I likened it to a cop enforcing a law he knows is unconstitutional.

I've been thinking ever since that day I should get an all-non-metal knife, just in case someone gets creative and uses something to get past security and I need to defend myself or others.

Spackler
March 14, 2003, 05:51 PM
"Well, I didn't have anything against the Jews personally, but it was just my job to fill the chamber with gas...."

You don't actually think that's a reasonable analogy, do you?
I think it's insulting to even compare the two scenarios.

Oleg Volk
March 14, 2003, 05:58 PM
------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Well, I didn't have anything against the Jews personally, but it was just my job to fill the chamber with gas...."
------------------------------------------------------------------------
You don't actually think that's a reasonable analogy, do you?
I think it's insulting to even compare the two scenarios.

Personally, I don't see a big difference in the apporach, only in the magnitude of the transgression. If you recall, the gassing of Jews (including more than a few of my ancestors) started with stripping them of any defensive tools. For that reason, I have similar sentiments towards the airport security screeners and towards the final solution workers of the 1940s. Same lovely slippery slope.

Drjones
March 14, 2003, 06:00 PM
Thanks, Oleg!!!

He nailed it exactly.

ballistic gelatin
March 14, 2003, 06:01 PM
You don't actually think that's a reasonable analogy, do you?
I think it's insulting to even compare the two scenarios.It's exactly the same thing.

I've been thinking ever since that day I should get an all-non-metal knife, just in case someone gets creative and uses something to get past security and I need to defend myself or others.I have one and I got it from a cop. It's only good for stabbing/poking. Not a good slicer.

Drjones
March 14, 2003, 06:07 PM
I've been thinking ever since that day I should get an all-non-metal knife, just in case someone gets creative and uses something to get past security and I need to defend myself or others.

I would *NOT* want to be anywhere NEAR a person who gets caught with a concealed weapon at an airport.

You seen those guardsmen with AR-15's at your airport?

You'd be on the business end of more than a few right quick if you got caught with a concealed weapon.

Spackler
March 14, 2003, 06:13 PM
I don't see any similarity between preventing airline passengers from carrying a pocket knife onto an airplane and gassing jews. Especially since your made the analogy based upon this statement:

he agreed it was stupid, but he was just the guy who enforced the rules.

There are a lot of stupid rules. There are a lot of people who enforce stupid rules. Is there a definitive list of which of these is like gassing jews, or is it a case-by-case thing?

Can't carry a pistol in a courthouse. Gassing jews!
Can't carry in church in some states. Gassing jews!
Can't carry at all in some states. Gassing jews!

It's flawed logic. It's a bad analogy.

Drjones
March 14, 2003, 06:27 PM
What's that quote by Jefferson, I think?

"Laws intended to disarm only disarm the law-abiding" or something like that?

By eagerly applying for jobs with the Nazi-esque TSA, they to some extent agree with its policies.

If no one would dare work for the TSA because of its absurd, faulty, illogical, and police-state tactics and policies, that would send a pretty clear message to the govt., wouldn't it?

In my eyes those who are eager to disarm me are no better than Hitler's men who followed his orders in murdering Jews, because if I am disarmed, it well could cost me or a loved one our life.

Oleg Volk
March 14, 2003, 06:29 PM
Can't carry a pistol in a courthouse. Gassing jews!
Can't carry in church in some states. Gassing jews!
Can't carry at all in some states. Gassing jews!


In more general terms, disarming people for any reason is evil. I'll cut a little more slack to the airlines as using them is a voluntary action on the part of the passengers. So, no, it isn't quite as nasty as murdering scores of people for their ethnic origin. It is, however, as incompatible with the ideals of the American way of life as the travel documents and other concepts borrowed from the USSR and from other such regimes.

Does making a comparison to the gassings "cheapen" the original tragedy? Perhaps. But the comparison of the original slippery slop to the present day trends is instructive. One can only hope for Nuremberg-type proceedings against the culprits at a later date.

spacemanspiff
March 14, 2003, 06:34 PM
what were jews told before being put in gas chambers?
most often "its a shower, we have to make sure you are clean before we send you to the work camps".
or did you think the jews lined up on their own and "volunteered" for the chamber?

for starters, the TSA takes great liberties to say what is "contraband" on an airplane. items that positively could not be used in a threatening manner (like the 3 inch plastic toy rifle that compliments a G.I.Joe action figure) or forcing a mother to sample her own bottled breast milk for her infant.
what about forcing a 5 yr old to take off shoes to "inspect" for weapons/bombs? what about telling a WWII Vet that his Medal of Honor must be confiscated and will be destroyed, not even offering him any way to send it to his destination or send it home?
reminds me of the scene in "Natural Born Killers" where the prison warden is inspecting the room Mickey Knox will be interviewed in by Wayne Gale, and refuses to let them have pencils. (that point is lost on the audience that didnt see the directors cut with the deleted scene where Mickey denies council in favor of defending himself in court on the murder charges, and stabs a witness for the prosecution with a pencil, or maybe it was a pen, i forget).

the point is, we are ALL being treated as potential criminals/suspects/terrorists. only because it is politically incorrect in this country to profile people based on their background.

and dont forget that the Nazis were intent on EXTERMINATING more than just the Jews. anyone who didnt fit their profile of "model citizen", and they included race, appearance, sexual orientation, religious beliefs as their criteria for whom to exercise the "Final Solution" upon.

Oleg Volk
March 14, 2003, 06:36 PM
Are commuter airlines subject to the same regulations or only larger planes get that lelver of "security"?

pax
March 14, 2003, 06:36 PM
Spackler,

It's an analogy, not a facsimile.

The point is that it is evil to enforce a law which you know is wrong, and pointless, and just plain bad. That particular form of evil is exactly what the folks who were manning the gas ovens were doing. They were stifling their consciences, hardening their hearts, and ignoring what their eyes should have seen. And for what? For a paycheck? For security? For the sake of their families?

The fellow working at the airport, enforcing a law which he knows is pointless and just plain bad is doing the exact same thing. He is ignoring the evidence before his eyes and the conclusion his brain tells him is right. And for what? For a paycheck? For security? For the sake of his family?

The particular form of the evil is the same, even though the magnitude of the resulting evil is not.

Not yet, anyway.

pax

He who passively accepts evil is as much involved in it as he who helps to perpetuate it. – Martin Luther King, Jr.

Spackler
March 14, 2003, 06:39 PM
Well put, Oleg.

It is, as you say, a "slippery slope", though it has a long way to go before it approaches a level where it can be compared to the holocaust.

Spackler
March 14, 2003, 06:44 PM
Commuter airlines get the same treatment as the larger airlines. If you are a commercial carrier, passengers and bags are screened by the TSA.

spacemanspiff
March 14, 2003, 06:47 PM
its much closer than you think, spackler.
every week we hear about instances where personal freedoms are being restricted. all because corrupt politicians distrust their subjects.
think about the gun control issues going on in illinois, how the democrats keep trying to slip bills by the people to take away their rights and turn them into criminals for owning/possessing mere objects. look at the list of banned weapons in the PRK. look at the handgun ban in DC, where a permit must be issued for a person to legally move a gun from one room to the next, not even out of their own residence. what about not being able to lock your luggage on an airline? many people who transport firearms with them wont feel safe with any airline crew member being able to go through their bags and take whatever they want.

but people still sit back and say "oh things arent so bad. they have good intentions. this war on terror is making the world a safer place."

who is really made safer because grandma cant knit while on a flight and little johnnys gijoe cant shoot imaginary enemies?
the fact is the TSA is a waste of resources, and an excuse to rob you and i of our rights as human beings.

Spackler
March 14, 2003, 06:51 PM
who is really made safer because grandma cant knit while on a flight and little johnnys gijoe cant shoot imaginary enemies?

Knitting needles are allowed. So are toy weapons "if not realistic replicas". But I get your point. I just don't totally agree.

spacemanspiff
March 14, 2003, 07:09 PM
they are allowed now. but in the wake of 9/11 and under the boosts of catch phrases like "homeland security" and "war on terrorism" the TSA has been making their own rules. try it out. see if you can get on a plane with items that arent on their 'banned' list. i'll give you a nickel for each item they refuse to let you pass with.

Spackler
March 14, 2003, 07:38 PM
I guarantee I won't have a problem at my local airport.

If I fly out of another, I have a list that's published by the TSA that lists permitted and prohibited items. Any problems and I'll talk to the screener supervisor.

99% of the problems are being caused by idiots who don't know what their own agency allows.

TallPine
March 14, 2003, 07:42 PM
Any problems and I'll talk to the screener supervisor.

Yeah, right ...

Want us to come visit you in jail?

:D

beckrodgers
March 15, 2003, 10:05 AM
We all stop flying to day. We gather together & form up The High Road Airline. We have to git the govt out the way somehow. Change the FARs, Fire those d@#$% dems&reps sellouts Put some UNTOUCHABLES in office ,surround & protect him from assasination make it a libertarian capitalist op. Makeing sure those capts dont drift into socialism. We hire all the laid off mech pilots ever one that wants to work Train them rite treat the customers rite apply the golden rule post armed guards to protect us from fema osha etc etc ,surround our selfs with the smartest best folks ,fire anyone who is a cheating sob that does not know what integrity is. With the new leaders in office, we then fly with the real knowledge if the USA is attacked in any way We will show what the term super power really means. Swift Silent Deadly, with the understanding we wont be silent sometimes. If those hooters can doit ,We can do it BETTER & THOROUGH. THANKS

trapshooter
March 15, 2003, 10:50 AM
As a matter of principle, I'm avoiding airports, and other nodes of 'protected' transportation. I'll drive.

geegee
March 15, 2003, 01:03 PM
Russ: They probably took those scissors of 80 year old ladies.
Not necessarily. My sister flew here to Texas about 2 months ago, with my 84 year old mother. Once the plane was up and away, Mom pulls out a pair of scissors and begins to trim a finger nail! :what: My sister looked over, nearly flipped out, and told my little old, white haired mother to put them away. Mom was pretty oblivious to the whole thing.

I guess she was lucky some government ninny wasn't onboard or I'm sure the plane would have had to make an emergency landing somewhere, and maybe with an F-15 esccorting it. :banghead: geegee

beckrodgers
March 16, 2003, 11:37 AM
WE thought of your specific question what can you do,ran across something that joggled my memory since I dont know how to link stuff here it is. Go to rense.com,when the screen comes up ,scroll on down thru the items in the center screen to Only You, click it on and read. We aint poets here, but I take what I see as truth from any source, hope you read and enjoy. By the way I read on that site 3to4 times a week,we dont agree with every thing there as any where ,take what is useful . THANKS Becky & BOBBY

ballistic gelatin
March 19, 2003, 01:28 PM
beckrodgers, thanks for the info.

Guy B. Meredith
March 19, 2003, 04:34 PM
In going to VA from Oakland last week I dutifully took off my metal rim glasses, belt with metal buckle, Chapstick tube, wallet with coins and ball point pen out and placed them in the bag to be X-rayed. All went well.

Going from Washington-Dulles I repeated the ceremony and was stopped when the detector buzzed at the thin metal hook on my trousers and the nails in my shoes.

After being home a couple of days I was cleaning out my carry on bag and found a pocket knife in the bottom of one pocket!!! Surprised the heck out of me, but I am even more surprised it was not picked up on either checkout.

ballistic gelatin
March 19, 2003, 06:10 PM
Last year when travelling to Chicago, I had two small swiss knives in my computer bag, they called me out on one, but missed the other. They were in the same pocket. Granny musta' missed the other one or something.

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