A marine and his rifle


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Otherguy Overby
March 17, 2005, 01:52 AM
I am listowner (run) of a motorcycle oriented mailing list.

Every now and the a gun thread comes along, 'cuz many motorcyclists like guns or just to annoy liberals on the list.

Anyway, one of the members is a former marine, a nice guy and all but...

He claimed:
My point was that even after only basic range training I could put 5 rounds under a dime at500 yds with my M16 from prone. In truth I put 3 rounds in the samehole, ...but you'd probably have to have been there to belive me on that one.


I claimed BS & and even explained minute of BS/angle then asked did you really mean your group would fit under a dime bag? Which annoyed him.

Then more...

Me:
> Should I assume you managed this with open sights? And on your first
> group with no fouling shot?

Him:
Yes, iron sights, first group (500 prone is two magazins of 5 rounds
each) Not sure what you mean by fouling shot, but my first group was
all under a dime (little silver colored 10 cent piece of American
currency), with 3 rounds in the same hole ...or close enough to hit
the pin). I did drop my second group slightly lower and to the right,
but still well inside the bullseye ...and that group fell more or less
under a dinner plate. ...don't know what happened after the magazine
change.

A dinner plate sized group would be excelent and believeable, but a dime sized group?

Anyway, I thought you'd enjoy a bit of BS.

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M2 Carbine
March 17, 2005, 02:00 AM
As a former Marine that shot 500 yards with the M1 Garand I'd say I doubt he was ever a Marine or shooter.

He doesn't even know what a fouling round is??

He's total BS.

natedog
March 17, 2005, 02:42 AM
I think it'd be more likely if the bullet caught a freak magnetic field coupled with the jet stream, traveled around the earth, and hit him in the back than if he shot a dime sized group at 500 yards with a rack-grade M-16, iron sights, and his first time.

Jon Coppenbarger
March 17, 2005, 08:13 AM
Rack grade and issue ammo I do find it hard to believe at 500 yards
I have seen some amazing groups from 200 out to 600 yards but with a match grade rifle and the ammo that goes with that.
But did he do it? With perfect conditions maybe it happened once I was not there.
For a example I fired two weeks ago at 600 yards trying to get zero's for the upcoming season and also try a new load. After firing one type of bullet and powder after 4 rounds got it zeroed in and hit 4 more. 4 shot all in the 10 ring but they were all over in the 10 ring , Dang wind. Then I switched to a different bullet and different powder. It put me out in the 9 ring at 11 o'clock but the 2 shots were like 2" apart. so I adjusted the sights over and down. the next shot hit just inside the X ring at 10, Next shot right next to it and the next one just off the X ring, All withing like I would say under a silver dollar but more like a quarter as I did not measure it or pull the pasters off but seeing the spotter and what the target puller told me they were there as it was a fresh target. The next shot after that group fired in conjunction with the others fell to the wind gods and moved me to the other side of the target with the next two within a inch of each other inside the X ring but like 4 inches away from the other group. and my last shot went like 6 inches low into the 10 ring due to my own un ability to hold elevation but it was directly under the last two.
I do not save any targets fired unless they are on a reduced course target and then only if I fired a perfect 200 score in competition. I do have a few of them and measured one of them but this is at 200 and not 500 so it makes it hard to believe with all of the other factors from rifle, ammo to light and wind he did that at 500. my 20 shot group was 2 1/2" high and 3" wide thats like 1 1/4 minute in height and 1 1/2 minute wide. Now in that group were 14 shots strung out left to right that were only 1/2" tall but like 2 " wide and no they were not all fired in a row.



Bottom line maybe he did for a few shots as it is very likely that he saw the target just right and the winds caused them to go in the right place. Could he repeat it on a on demand do it again thing. Most likely not but I even though find it hard to believe I do not think it was impossible.
About the fouling it does not surprize me he did not know as with alot of todays soldiers there trip to the range it very infrequent to say the least and most of them are more interested in other things like stereo's, bikes and cars and women to learn more than just the basics about what may keep them alive.

Just my rambling opinions guys
Jon

MarkDido
March 17, 2005, 08:26 AM
OK, please explain a "fouling round" for a former squid :confused:

Indy7373
March 17, 2005, 09:08 AM
I am not a marine, so take this for what its worth, but a fouling shot is fired to dirty the bore. A clean bore will never fire to same poi as a dirty one. (Learned from Unintended Consequences :D )

Moondoggie
March 17, 2005, 09:12 AM
I've got 26 yrs in the Marines, and 2 yrs as a DI and this guy you're describing is so full of it that his eyes are brown.

What he's describing is totally impossible.

For starters, you didn't mention him saying anything about hitting the spotter. When a rd is fired on a tgt, folks in the pits (aka "The Butts") pull the tgt down and place a spotter in the shot hole and run the tgt back up so the shooter can see wher he hit the tgt. The spotter is an 8" cardboard disk with a wood plug through the middle (black on one side, white on the other; black on white/white on black for visibility)...plug goes through the shot hole and holds the spotter on the tgt. The plug is a little larger than .223 so it will snugly retain the spotter. Since there's a piece of wood through a shot hole, it would be pretty unrealistic to think that another bullet could go through the same hole, let alone several times. In my experience, even hitting the 8" disk is very rare, hitting it more than once in succession is akin to getting hit by a meteor.

Also, his description of 5 rds each in 2 mags is total BS.....500 prone slow fire is loaded a single rd at a time through the ejection port. 5 rds each in 2 mags is rapid fire from the 200 & 300 yd line.

As far as a "fouling rd" is concerned, it's not a common term in Marine Corps Marksmanship Training. However, the 500 yd line is at the end of the course of fire, after the 200 slow & rapid then 300 slow and rapid, so the barrel already has 40 rds through it that day before you get to the 500 slow fire of 10 rds.

If all this guy knows is what the Marines taught him in boot camp, you're wasting your time talking about ballistics, MOA, or any other of the finer points of marksmanship. Most recruits are only dimly aware that a bullet travels in an arc...all they know is that they change elevation every time they move further away from the tgt. Marine Corps Marksmanship Training for the basic Marine is only oriented toward "programming" the individual to hit the tgt using the equipment...consistentcy of position, sight alignment, sight picture, trigger control. The instructors/coaches intricately manage each shooter's sight adjustments and the shooters diligently record each "Dope" change in a data book. For every string of fire, a DI checks the dope on every rifle before the recruit gets up on the line. The goal of recruit training is to graduate a "Basically Qualified Marine". All of the advanced stuff happens later.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not knocking our marksmanship training program...it's one of the most successful in the world at BASIC training. A person who just graduated recruit training still a long way from being a combat ready grunt, and a lot further from being a scout/sniper.

And yes, I'll freely admit that some folks who've spent time in the Marine Corps are guilty of embellishing a story once in awhile.

noklue3
March 17, 2005, 09:34 AM
I never heard of a "Fouling round" either....

But then, I shot "Triple Top Secret Expert" in Bootcamp with my M-14 and also with the .45 (also at 500 yards) before being pressed into service with the CIA as an instructor, and then going off to Seal School to teach them as well. :neener: :neener:

scout26
March 17, 2005, 09:50 AM
In order to get my Space Shuttle Door Gunner Badge, I had to put 3 rounds into the same hole at 500 miles. I can't say anything more about it as it classifed double secret with a cherry on top secret.

:neener: :neener: :neener:

RKCheung
March 17, 2005, 09:56 AM
Moondoggie is right. It would be impossible to hit the same hole in succession as the wooden plug with the spotter would be sitting in the hole. The guy is full of it.

One thing though, I don't remember ever having to load any rounds through the ejection port at the 500 yd line. We loaded 10 rds in one mag for that string of fire. Maybe times were a little different back when you were in though, old-timer. :neener:

S/f

Steve in PA
March 17, 2005, 10:21 AM
I'll add my .02 since I too was in the USMC (1979-1983), this guy is full of crap. In the 4 years I was in the Corps, I shot mid-expert (middle 230's) of of a possible 250. There is no way this goof shot dime size groups at 500yds. Not with your standard issue M16. And you single load your rounds from the 500yd prone.

My third year in we had a Sgt shoot a perfect 250 on Thursday, which was called pre-qual and the score was used if for some reason we could not shoot on qual day, such as bad weather, etc. Even he didn't shoot dime size groups at 500yds. Needless to say he shot something like 246 or something like that on qual day.

Moondoggie
March 17, 2005, 10:28 AM
Yeah, RK, I was thinking about that as I was typing it...but I remember having the individual rds in a bullet board. I remember hitting the bolt catch to chamber each rd...or maybe I'm closer to going to "the home" than I thought. Since it's 10 rds in 10 minutes, I'm thinking we wanted the bolt locked to the rear after each rd to help keep the bbl temp somewhat stable. Heating up a bbl is gonna have quite an effect on a 5.56 rd @ 500 yds.

I do know one thing for certain...the guy at the top of the thread who made the claim about his marksmanship prowess is living in an altered state of reality.

Bear Gulch
March 17, 2005, 10:32 AM
Since when does the military shoot qual at farther than 300 meters? Further we used pop up targets which had been shot by others. Some were worn enough (for example 50m) that the best way to score a "hit" was to his the berm gravel and use the rocksto knock the target down.

Pilgrim
March 17, 2005, 10:33 AM
(deleted).

Moondoggie
March 17, 2005, 11:13 AM
Bear Gulch...

The Marine Corps shoots 200, 300, & 500 meters as the standard ("A") course of fire...25 rds (15 slow, 10 rapid) @ 200, 15 rds (5 slow, 10 rapid) @ 300, and 10 rds slow fire @ 500 from a prone position with a sling. The black portion of the shiloutte tgt used @ 500 meters is slightly larger than a good sized adult male.

Sometimes for expediency, Marines fire a "B Modified" course which only includes the 200 & 300 distances. The B Mod scores are converted to an "A course" equivalant value, since rifle scores are entered into the promotion system for competitive selection.

In the olden days of M-1's the Marines qual'd @ 600 yds. I believe they dropped the 600 down to 500 in 1957 (or therabouts) when the M-14 replaced the M-1.

JamisJockey
March 17, 2005, 11:37 AM
The guy is a liar. 500 Yard prone slow fire, during the KD qual course, is a one shot, pull and mark and repost the target affair. As Moondoggie said, there is a spotter disc, about 6" in diameter, that is placed in the hole of the shot fired. I've seen guys destroy spotter discs at 500 yards, but you don't shoot "groups" as each hole is taped after the next shot is spotted.
Moondoggie: I seem to remember loading either one or two magazines when I was in, I don't remember loading one at a time. However, I honestly can't remember much details about shooting at boot, except going Unk the first time...and how pissed my SDI was, as I was his House Mouse, I was a 300 pfter, and generally had my poop together.
Bear Gultch: The Marine Corps does. Also, regardless of MOS (Military Occupational Specialty), Marines qual every year. IIRC, the Army only lets frontline units qual every year.

Darkmind
March 17, 2005, 11:39 AM
Also, his description of 5 rds each in 2 mags is total BS.....500 prone slow fire is loaded a single rd at a time through the ejection port.

First time i've ever herd that, we did our 500 yard line with one mag of ten rounds.


In order to get my Space Shuttle Door Gunner Badge, I had to put 3 rounds into the same hole at 500 miles. I can't say anything more about it as it classifed double secret with a cherry on top secret.

ROTFLOL! :what: :D

JamisJockey
March 17, 2005, 11:43 AM
Oh, yea, I never heard the word "fouling shot" in my five years of active duty. Including Boot camp, I made 7 trips to the rifle range to qualify on the KD course. I also remember shooting with the gas mask for qual, can't remember how many times I had to do that.
with 3 rounds in the same hole ...or close enough to hit the pin
I just read that part. It kind of sounds like he's talking about the spotter disc.

Steve in PA
March 17, 2005, 11:48 AM
We didn't fire "fouling shots", but after we fired on pre-qual day, we never punched the bore. Just wiped the rifle down, made sure it was lubed properly and secured it until the next day.

Werewolf
March 17, 2005, 11:52 AM
Bear Gulch:

1971 - Ft. Ord, CA - Army Basic Training

We shot at 25, 75, 125, 250 and 400 yards. The targets at 25 and 75 yards were pop up prone position sized silhouettes. At 125 and 250 the target was a pop up kneeling position sized silhouettes and at 400 a pop up standing position sized silhouette.

Scoring was based solely on whether or not the silhouette went down or not. Except for the 400 yard silhouette I always shot COM. On the 400 yard silhouette I aimed low at the bottom third figuring if I missed high it'd hit and if low then the dirt or richochet would knock the darn thing down.

We fired from standing, kneeling and prone positions.

Quite fun actually - I wish the range I use today had those type of pop up targets. Hit it and if falls down. Resets automatically a few seconds later. Probably expensive though.

obiwan1
March 17, 2005, 12:00 PM
I remember the farthest distance being 500 yards (or meters, I don't remember which) back when I qualed "expert" back in Feb '69 with my M14. (I also remember that most of us scored a possible at that range). That was great because the "experts" got some bennies, like not doing mess duty (that was mixed blessing, because our platoon had WM mess). We had to clean rifles that week, but we were totally unsupervised :what: . One of the DI's promised a beer to all experts. 4 of us qualed expert and........ he even brought us a beer (Budweiser) EACH!!!!!! He gave us a few minutes to drink 'em (he called us into the DI hooch and we figured that we really screwed up), but he brought them and we drank them! He even had us relax and treated us like MARINES! Boy were we proud! Thank you SSGT Autry. :D One of these days I'll have to buy me a Homeland Defense m1a to see if I can still qual expert.

entropy
March 17, 2005, 12:14 PM
Werewolf, I shot that same course 15 years after you did. (Permanent Party, though.) Fun as hell! :) To make it a little more challenging on the 25, 75, and 125 yd. targets, I held at low ready instead of 'scan your sector' up on the shoulder. Qualified Expert every time, but then, I was the Unit Armorer, so my M16A1 had a perfect 4 1/2 lb. trigger. ;) I did the same thing as you with the 400 yd. targets. Usually the rocks kicked up knocked 'em down! :rolleyes:
LaRue Tactical makes the same target setup. They are @ $2000 each. :eek:

Fumbler
March 17, 2005, 12:18 PM
My guess is he was never a marine.
If he really did shoot at a 500 yard target (not as a marine) then I bet he hit it once and assumes all the other bullets went through the same hole when in reality he completely missed the target.
That's give you a nice hole under a dime's size.

patentmike
March 17, 2005, 12:25 PM
I was in with that guy. When he got out as a corporal, he started wearing captain's bars on his motorcycle jacket and telling stories.

Just to add to the evidence that he has no idea what he is talking about: You shoot and someone esle pulls the target. You both keep score, and hopefully the scores match when you are done, but the target score is the one that counts. Even if you shot every single shot into the same hole (and ruined all the spotter discs as other have pointed out) you don't see your group, just the score. What did this guy do, walk up to the target after every shot?

One more "tell" is the guy's language. "Basic" is for the army, Marines refer to "boot camp".

Bear Gulch
March 17, 2005, 12:30 PM
My recollection is from Fort McClellan in 1985 during Basic Rifle Markmanship. I am glad you schooled me up on the USMC program.

If this cat can really shoot like that cut him orders for Camp Perry cause he's the ghost of Carlos Hathcock!

M2 Carbine
March 17, 2005, 12:34 PM
" One of the DI's promised a beer to all experts. 4 of us qualed expert and........ he even brought us a beer (Budweiser) EACH!!!!!! He gave us a few minutes to drink 'em"
----------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------

How the Corps has changed.

When I shot Expert with the M1 at Parris Island in 1956, the DI said I could "lite one up". I said I didn't smoke. He said, Then have a chew, and gave me a piece of chewing gun. :D

We didn't shoot fouling shots as such. We just weren't allowed to clean the rifle bore from the first shot until after qualification.

My brand new International Harvester M1 bore got a few pits from the highly corrosive WW2 ammo we were shooting. :fire:

BTW, I loved 500 yards. That M1 would lay them in the black all day long.

Sergeant Sabre
March 17, 2005, 01:46 PM
I qualified with the M-16 three times in the USMC from Jul1999 to Dec2003. I agree with the above posters that this guy is a liar. An severe embellisher, at best.

MikeIsaj
March 17, 2005, 02:06 PM
Moondoggie said it all for me. I rate him as the real thing, 100% credibility. However I have fired single round and five in the mag. It depends on the range.

This other guy is so full of it, his breath stinks.

At 500yds. you are slightly outside the effective range of the M-16. The whole target fits on your front sights. That said a good shooter can hit ten bulls on a good day.

I was in 75 - 86. My last four years I fired 244 - 249, high expert. At a coaches school once on the Lejeune range we did a shoot out at the 500yd line. One shot at a time until you dropped a round. I got to 18, but that was a perfect shooting day.

Semper Fi.

280PLUS
March 17, 2005, 02:08 PM
"When he got out as a corporal, he started wearing captain's bars on his motorcycle jacket and telling stories."

Funny, I knew a guy once that between boot camp and "A" school (two weeks) developed a very heavy British accent. Don't ask me what that was all about but it sure was wierd...

:scrutiny:

myrockfight
March 17, 2005, 06:57 PM
Overby,

Care to share the address of the post? I was just wanting to see the aftermath. :)

I also noticed the mentioning of the jeep in the sig line. Do you check out any jeep forums? What kind do you have?

Have a good one!

mons meg
March 17, 2005, 07:08 PM
I shot "low expert" in basic ... 221, but it was only because I was 50 out of 50 points at the 500 that I made it out of there with crossed rifles on my uniform! I sucked royal off-hand.

Oh, and I might have mentioned this before: since Moondoggie was a Master Gunny, anything he says about the Corps might not be 100% true at first, but actually becomes reality through force of personality and out of courtesy to his esteemed rank. :neener:

I know this as a "retired" Lance Corporal...

MikeIsaj
March 17, 2005, 08:12 PM
Does anyone know the difference between a Sea Story and a Fairy Tale?

A Fairy tale starts with "Once upon a time..."

A Sea story begins "this is no sh*$!"

VARifleman
March 17, 2005, 08:19 PM
I am not a marine, so take this for what its worth, but a fouling shot is fired to dirty the bore. A clean bore will never fire to same poi as a dirty one. (Learned from Unintended Consequences )

Not only that but the temperature of the barrel. Lones Wigger will only open his bolt for a moment to reload as the more time it's open, the less the barrel and chamber are at the same temperature as the last shot.

That "marine"...doesn't know a damn bit about shooting...that gun isn't capable of pulling off that kind of group a 500. Mabye he could do it at 50...but then again...probably not.

Fumbler
March 18, 2005, 01:05 AM
If this cat can really shoot like that cut him orders for Camp Perry cause he's the ghost of Carlos Hathcock!
If he can really shoot like that then get every other rifleman a gun like his.

ScorpioVI
March 18, 2005, 07:34 AM
am listowner (run) of a motorcycle oriented mailing list.

Every now and the a gun thread comes along, 'cuz many motorcyclists like guns or just to annoy liberals on the list.






I noticed that too. I belong to a sportbike forum with about 10,000 members and boy do we have a crapload of shooters in there.

Dorian
March 18, 2005, 07:46 AM
As a former Marine that shot 500 yards with the M1 Garand I'd say I doubt he was ever a Marine or shooter.

He doesn't even know what a fouling round is??

He's total BS.

As a soldier, an expert marksman, and an army marksmanship instructor, I don't have a CLUE as to what a fouling round is.

Not defending this guy, it's possible that he's telling the truth.... but I doubt it.

Quote:
I am not a marine, so take this for what its worth, but a fouling shot is fired to dirty the bore. A clean bore will never fire to same poi as a dirty one. (Learned from Unintended Consequences )



Not only that but the temperature of the barrel. Lones Wigger will only open his bolt for a moment to reload as the more time it's open, the less the barrel and chamber are at the same temperature as the last shot.

That "marine"...doesn't know a damn bit about shooting...that gun isn't capable of pulling off that kind of group a 500. Mabye he could do it at 50...but then again...probably not.

That all makes sense. Learn something every day, eh?

Brian Williams
March 18, 2005, 08:57 AM
Beside the 500 meters prone is shot at man sized silouette <sp>
not a bullseye as he states

TheDutchman
March 18, 2005, 09:02 AM
Just a Marine Telling a Sea Story NBD, take it with a grain of salt

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