[Blackhawk]

Just got off the phone with Eric Rohrbaugh:

1. The magnetic trigger lock model is history. It will not be produced.

2. Just before the SHOT Show, the BATF cleared Rohrbaugh to manufacture guns.

3. They already have orders for thousands of the R-9s, including from other countries pending export licenses.

4. The only grips that will be available are carbon fiber and aluminum.

5. Mass distribution will begin in June.

6. The sight means has not been finalized.

[Bladeandbarrel]

lets hope they put a dovetail front and rear sight.

If you don't use the sights, don't use them.

I demand sights on all of my pistols, even "bellyguns".

[Blackhawk]

I also demand sights on all my guns.

The minimalist sights on my P-32 are actually quite useful and the gun is surprisingly accurate. I can hit what I want with it out to at least 16 yards.

A 9mm bellygun without sights seems a little like a V-8 on a gokart. :rolleyes:

[tetchaje1]

Thank goodness they are dumping that kooky magnetic ring ILS... :barf:

[Pendragon]

Wow - do you think they dropped it to avoid being the company that triggers the 3 year count down in NJ?

If so, we outta show them some love :)

[Schuey2002]

Rohrbaugh should pay Blackhawk for all the free advertising that he does for them.:D

[Blackhawk]

I think I can tell you EXACTLY why they dropped the magnetic lock.

They read the comments on TFL and THR, and they asked questions among those who've contacted them about their new products.

They LISTEN to us! :D

"New company, new ideas" is their motto, so I guess they're still listening to their target market.

Smart! :D

[Blackhawk]

There's a method to my madness, Schuey.

I want a 9mm locked breech mouse gun, and I've wanted one for years. There were three choices:

1. I could make one myself at a cost of big bucks and a lot of my time plus having to learn zillions of things I don't really want to know about BATF, etc.

2. I could hire a custom gun maker to make one for me at a cost of really big bucks plus a lot of my time and a really big lot of frustration.

3. I could find and encourage some manufacturer who's already determined to make exactly what I want at a cost of whatever everybody else will pay for one and the intangible benefits from being a cheerleader doing whatever I can.

Door 3, please.... :D

[clange]

1. The magnetic trigger lock model is history. It will not be produced.
Awesome.

[9x19]

Has the MSRP changed... or is it still 'bout doulbe that for the Kahr, and triple that for the Kel-Tecs?

:uhoh:

[Blackhawk]

Don't know for sure about the MSRP, but my guess is $900-$950.

[Gusgus]

The magnetic trigger lock model is history. It will not be produced.

Thank God (and the Rohrbaugh brothers)! Now I can back this company with a clear conscience. I wish them tremendous success. I loved the concept and looks of this pistol from day one, and will now have to add it to the short list.

[Alan Fud]

I've got mine on order already and the expected retail price is $945.

Now for the $64,000.oo question ... has any independent source tested these guns yet? I mean, there are thousands of people (myself included) prepared to lay down close to a grand for a gun that might turn out to be a lemon!
http://www.familyfriendsfirearms.com/vb/images/smilies/omg.gif
Anybody remember the Vektor? :rolleyes: It was a brand new gun with a brand new design that turned out was unsafe to use with live ammo and the gun makers couldn't fix the problem. http://www.familyfriendsfirearms.com/vb/images/smilies/eek-.gif

I certainly hope that this is not the case with the R-9 because it would be the perfect gun when wearing dress pants and a tucked in shirt with no jacket but suppose it turns out to be a lemon? Horrible trigger pull? Inaccurate? Unreliable? Jam-a-matic? http://www.familyfriendsfirearms.com/vb/images/smilies/dunno.gif

Are there any independent reviews of this gun?

http://fud-files.netfirms.com/image/port2-jj.jpg (http://www.FamilyFriendsFirearms.com/) » www.FamilyFriendsFirearms.com (http://www.FamilyFriendsFirearms.com) «
Alligator Al: Share What You Know & Learn What You Don't.

[Blackhawk]

Not yet, Al, but there will be before you plunk down your money.

[Zundfolge]

Does Rohrbaugh have a web page up yet?

I got people asking me to show them what the little guy looks like and I'm having a hard time finding pics.

[Felonious Monk]

http://www.rohrbaughfirearms.com/

[smooth operator]

It'll be interesting to see what kind of demand there will be for this pistol, seeing that the price will be close to 1k. Seems kind of steep to me.
Jerry

[Blackhawk]

I always thought Rolex watches were overpriced too, but that's because I was perfectly happy with cheaper ones. After all, they all do pretty much the same thing!

Somehow, a grand for a good looking precision made 9mm micro blaster made of all stainless and aluminum and well finished doesn't seem unreasonable at all.

I love my P-32, and I'm good with it. It's a constant companion, but there's one thing that bothers me a bit about it. It's a .32 ACP. I'd much rather carry my P-11, but can't always.

When a P-3AT joins my mouse gun litter, I'll feel just a bit better about having a slightly more oomphy caliber, but I still have reservations about a .380 just as I have about a .32.

What I want, and have wanted for years is a 9mm mouse gun. The R-9 will be the first one, and it will own the genre for at least a year.

So my question to myself is: Is the comfort of 9mm chambering worth the money? That's like asking whether I'd rather have my P-32 than nothing.

Yes to both questions, and money comes and goes for something or other anyway.

[Blackhawk]

Zundfolge:I got people asking me to show them what the little guy looks like and I'm having a hard time finding pics.Here's one from the SHOT Show, but the flash messes up some of the detail. Carbon fiber (shown) or aluminum grips are available.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?s=&postid=165220

[incursion]

Is that a heal mag release?

[Blackhawk]

Yep. Mag release on the bottom of the grip. Note in this picture that NOTHING sticks out on sides of this thing. The bottom gun is a Kahr PM9.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?s=&postid=162980

[Alan Fud]

My dealer tells me that the aluminum grips are not being offered. Are you sure that they are still available?

Also, what is the trigger pull like? (With no safety, somebody please tell me that it's a bit heavier than the Kahr's)

[Schuey2002]

This little pocket rocket is what all the fuss is about??..

Okay. And at $1,000, it seems like a bargain. :uhoh:
Just teasin' ya', Blackhawk.;)

__________________
Molon Labe!!
http://sport.rtl.de/images/fotos/im_030214_msc_cockpit_vonoben_i.jpg

[Blackhawk]

My dealer tells me that the aluminum grips are not being offered. Are you sure that they are still available?

Also, what is the trigger pull like? All my information comes directly from Eric Rohrbaugh, and the aluminum grips and the carbon fiber grips are the only two styles available.

Don't know for sure about the trigger pull, but it's supposed supposed to be long, firm, and very smooth.

[Jeff OTMG]

More info:

The model with the magnetic trigger lock was originally offered due to concerns by investors to be seen as a safety conscious gun company. When that model ended up accounting for less than 1 in 10 guns ordered it was dropped so full effort could be put into producing as many of the R-9 models as possible.

Destructive testing is continuing, 3000 rounds and counting.

There are some barrel problems that need to be corrected before shipping, but June does sound reasonable.

The trigger pull is heavy, but smooth. I didn't have a pull gauge but was less than my 14lb SIG P225 as I remember.

Rohrbaugh sells directly to dealers so I am surprised by the distribution network. With the demand there is no need for distributor pricing.

The retail price went up $200 due to the high demand which required the purchase of additional EXPENSIVE equipment. Expect the 'street' price to be MUCH higher than the MSRP due to demand after all, a $450 Seecamp 32 was selling for nearly $1000 since the mid-80's up until a couple of years ago for the same reason.

Fewer than 2000 guns are scheduled for the initial run and there are orders for all of them.

I would guess that another run will be made immediately after the initial run and that won't cover all the orders that they have taken.

My order is already in and the gun is not for sale, not even at $1800.

[Zundfolge]

Okay, one goofy little question ... how do you pronounce Rohrbaugh?

[incursion]

I'm not sure, but I pronounce it roar ball. I say it with silent Ls. Like Rush Limbaugh.

[Blackhawk]

roar bah

[NJ3]

Okay, one goofy little question ... how do you pronounce Rohrbaugh?

I'm glad someone asked. :D

[Schuey2002]

One thing is a certainty, and that is this. That Blackhawk will know how to pronounce Rohrbaugh!! :D

Blackhawk, have you started recieving any royalties yet?:neener:

[Blackhawk]

I wish! I'll bet Rohrbaugh Firearms is going to be a great company! :D

[WonderNine]

My only complaint is that they could put small combat nightsights on the thing....

Scratch that. I'm not entirely crazy about the bottom mag release either.

But for only $1,800 you can't have it all right :rolleyes:

:D

[buttrap]

I think I will just wear a coat and keep my High Power....

[WonderNine]

I think I will just wear a coat and keep my High Power....

I'll just choose to save my pennies and pay for a CCW piece that will allow me to get laid in July thank you :D

I payed $700 for my NIB Cop Industries .357 derringer and it was worth every penny :cool:

[Tamara]

Horrible trigger pull?

Look, I'm pretty fussy about DA triggers (I send my Performance Center revolvers in for trigger jobs ;) ) and I was quite impressed by the Rorhbaugh's DA pull. (At least on the sample guns at SHOT which had, no doubt, been dy-fired umpty zillion times by drooling onlookers like me. :D )

[Tamara]

I payed $700 for my NIB Cop Industries .357 derringer and it was worth every penny :cool:

Dude, that's a lot of money to shell out for a paperweight! ;)

[harrydog]

I wish this gun were made with titanium or even scandium rather than 7075 aluminum. I'd be willing to pay even more if it were.

[Blackhawk]

And you would pay more, harrydog.

What do you think the advantages of Ti or Sc over Al would be anyway?

[Greybeard]

' Guess I'll just have to live with new "cheap" PM9 for a long while ...

Side-by-side photo makes PM9 look like a monster! Loaded with 6+1 115 grainers, I put it on a digital postal scale this week and it indicated 19.4 ounces. Got a loaded weight on the supermini-9?

And any feedback on what they are actually like to shoot? The reason I ask is having owned a HEAVY little AMT .380 that looks to be about the same size skinny grip. One of the reasons that I got rid of it was that it was rather PAINFUL to shoot - and it was "only" a .380! :eek:

[Blackhawk]

The R9 and its magazine weigh 13.9 ounces. Add the weight of 7 rounds to that to get what it weighs fully loaded with 6+1.

The recoil and impulse is supposed to be similar to that of a PPK .380, for what that's worth.

[Greybeard]

Sounds like right at 2 ounces lighter than PM9.

FWIW, I crunched the numbers and 7 rounds of 9mm 115s must weigh about 3.5 ounces.

Do ya know if they licensed the dual-recoil spring thing from Seecamp?

[Blackhawk]

Just weighed 7 rounds of 115gr 9mm at 2.9 ounces, so that would be 16.8 ounces fully loaded.

My parts blowup doesn't show the recoil spring.

Why would you think a double recoil spring arrangement would have to be licensed from Larry Seecamp, if that's what it has? I doubt seriously that he could have patented anything like that since double compression springs are about as old as rocks.

[Sox]

Look a $900.00 AMT! No Thanks!

[Jeff OTMG]

Seecamp was the patent holder for the double spring. Gaston Glock bought Seecamp all their new CNC machinery a few years ago because the Glock 26 and 27 were usings patent protected parts. Unfortunately for Glock they were not the ones holding the patent. Much like the Colt Pocket Nine, Tac Nine, and Pony using a Kahr patented design without permission.

[Blackhawk]

Thanks, Jeff. Interesting trivia, but it sure seems like the USPTO examiner would have rejected the claim as "obvious" based on long existing art.

[Greybeard]

' Seems like I read somewhere that Seecamp had some of that type technology that others had licensed. IIRC, it was licensed to someone pretty big (Kahr?), who could likely have strung him out real good in court. Again, just going from (old) recent memory, but something somewhere here fairly recently led me to believe that Larry must have had a pretty stong patent for whoever it was/is to have licensed rather than duke it out.

I'll do a quickie search here in a bit and see if I can locate at least a patent number. Pretty amazing what can be patented sometimes, despite prior art ...

Or, in the meantime, possibly others here far more knowledgeable than I of Seecamp's widget's claim to fame ...

[Greybeard]

Blackhawk -

Well, I see a pretty good answer got posted while I was peckin' around above ... :) From the isue date indicated on Seecamp patent, it looks like it must have expired a few years ago ...

United States Patent 4,201,113
Seecamp May 6, 1980

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Telescoping return-spring assembly for automatic handguns


Abstract
A return-spring assembly for slide-type automatic pistols in which an inner spring and an outer spring are coupled together so that they work in tandem.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Inventors: Seecamp; Lueder (62 Shelter Cove Rd., Milford, CT 06460)
Appl. No.: 937765
Filed: August 29, 1978

Current U.S. Class: 89/199; 89/163
Intern'l Class: F41D 011/12
Field of Search: 89/163,178,196,199



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

References Cited [Referenced By]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

U.S. Patent Documents
580924 Apr., 1897 Browning 89/163.
3435728 Apr., 1969 Pachmayr et al. 89/199.
3731590 May., 1973 Zimmerman 89/163.
4040332 Aug., 1977 Border et al. 89/37.

"Older than rocks" ? In playing around in USPTO site for the last few minutes, the closest I came to that was related to a patent by some dude (above) a little over a hunnered years ago by the name of Browning ... :D

[Gewehr98]

Also, what is the trigger pull like? (With no safety, somebody please tell me that it's a bit heavier than the Kahr's)

Since the Kahr has no safety either, and is a smooth-but-heavy DAO-style trigger, what's the matter with it? (Since I'm just about to purchase my second K9...) :confused:

[Blackhawk]

"Older than rocks" ? In playing around in USPTO site for the last few minutes, the closest I came to that was related to a patent by some dude (above) a little over a hunnered years ago by the name of Browning ... Then it's REALLY surprising that Seecamp got the claim allowed. The Browning reference is even in the same category, firearms!

Aren't 1911's older than rocks...? :D

[Greybeard]

Repeat quote "Pretty amazing what can be patented sometimes, despite prior art ... ".

Lawyers. Money. More lawyers. More money. :rolleyes:

[Blackhawk]

Yeah, but all a patent does is give the holder the right to sue for infringement. All the defendant has to do is show that the patent is invalid due to prior art, obviousness, etc. Even if the defendant loses, all the patent holder can recover is costs plus a royalty for past infringement plus an injunction against further use. All of that makes anybody bothering to license Seecamp's patent a bit surprising. A weak patent is just a nuisance to get a license and royalty fee, IMO.

[JohnBT]

I had to go look it up. Interesting that no one had thought it up before. They came close, but never solved the problem of restricted space.

For anyone else who is curious about the Seecamp tandem spring patent, follow the link to the list and scroll down to Seecamp and open the 10-page Adobe Acrobat document...lots of details and drawings. JT


www.biggerhammer.net/patents

[Blackhawk]

Good info, John.

Overhead valve engines aren't quite older than rocks, but they've had double valve springs almost since they showed up. Same principle, which is why I can't imagine Seecamp getting a patent on it.

[harrydog]

Quote:
"And you would pay more, harrydog.

What do you think the advantages of Ti or Sc over Al would be anyway?"



Yes, I said I'd be willing to pay more.
The main advantage of titanium over aluminum is, much greater fatigue strength. Aluminum will eventually develop cracks and fail, if it is shot enough. Granted, a small gun like this might not ever have that many rounds through it, but on the other hand, maybe it would. 17-4 stainless steel was specified because it has considerably greater strength than the usual 416 stainless. It's more difficult to machine, so it was a conscious decision to use it due to its advantages. That's why titanium would have been a perfect match.
Scandium isn't as good as titanium, but it's still stronger than 7075 aluminum, I believe.

[Blackhawk]

Aluminum will eventually develop cracks and fail, if it is shot enough.Maybe, but Al cracks are usually associated with flex cycling. Even so, Rohrbaughs have a KT like lifetime warranty, so you'd always have a primo gun.

Since it's not a target or range gun, I doubt that I'd ever be shooting it all that much. (I get enough of shooting my P-32 fairly fast at the range.) "Mouse guns" and "pleasurable shooting" don't often occur to me in the same thought. :D

I'm very comfortable with 7075 having designed and made many parts with it, but scandium is a mystery and titanium gun parts have caused some very astute manufacturers to have long term cases of heartburn.

Speaking of scandium, I found a reference that recent worldwide use was about shockingly low, so I'm wondering what the actual alloy composition of the "Scandium" guns is?

[harrydog]

The Scandium framed S&W revolvers contain only a small percentage of Scandium and are mostly aluminum alloy. Here's their explanation.



Since 1852 Smith & Wesson has been a pioneer in handgun development. Through a century and a half the people at Smith & Wesson have never ceased in their quest for better designs, efficient calibers and improved materials. This ongoing effort was, and is, designed to deliver products that meet or exceed our customer's expectations.

In 1952, Smith & Wesson introduced the Airweight® revolvers featuring aluminum alloy frames and steel cylinders. Thirteen years later, Smith & Wesson produced the first stainless steel handgun, a technological advancement soon copied by others. In 1998, the steel cylinders of the Airweight's were replaced with titanium, resulting in AirLite Ti™ products that delivered Smith & Wesson performance in an even lighter revolver.

The latest step in this technological evolution is the introduction of products that use scandium to produce the strongest, lightest revolvers known, the AirLite Sc™ Series from Smith & Wesson.

Scandium is an element that is located between calcium and titanium in the Periodic Table of Elements. The possibility of its existence was predicted in 1871 but it wasn't until 1879 the Swedish Chemist, Lars Nilson, actually discovered this mysterious element after refining it from the mineral Euxenite. The source of this mineral was Scandinavia so Nilson named the new element Scandium. Pure scandium is extremely difficult to refine. Its overall concentration in the Earth's crust is roughly 5 parts per million. That means 500 tons of material would have to be processed to obtain 5 pounds of scandium. The market price of scandium today is in excess of $7,000 a pound.

Russia discovered a major source of scandium in the Ukraine and started the original investigations of scandium-aluminum alloys in the early 1970's. What soon became apparent to the Russian Scientists was that when very small amounts of scandium were combined with some aluminum alloys, major changes took place. The results were alloys in which there were great increases in tensile strength and enhanced superplastic performance. This meant far greater fatigue resistance and pressure containment capability. These discoveries rapidly resulted in the use of these new, stronger, lightweight alloys in the MIG fighters and Russian missiles. With the fall of the Iron Curtain and the release of countries such as Ukraine from Communist control this unique element was made available to the world.

Fast forward to the late 1990's where Smith & Wesson had just released its first generation of AirLite titanium and aluminum alloy revolvers.

We were searching for stronger lightweight metal systems to continue the AirLite concept into Magnum calibers. It was during this time that company engineers obtained the first samples of scandium alloy and the first AirLite Sc™ Magnum revolvers were built. The startling result was a small frame, under 12-ounce revolver that could safely fire full load 158 grain 357 Magnum rounds.

So how does a little scandium produce this remarkable increase in strength in aluminum alloys? Regular aluminum alloys have a grain structure that can be coarse and non-uniform, not a desirable property for yield strength. Even more problematic, this structure has a tendency to weaken over time through use. Adding a tiny amount of scandium to the alloy produces several results, the most important being a new alloy with a much finer grain structure which means greater strength and a reduction or elimination of long-term fatigue effects. The scandium alloy is a material that is lighter in weight than titanium or steel but with tensile strength and fatigue resistance that make it an ideal candidate of firearms fabrication.

[Blackhawk]

Thanks, harrydog. That's interesting. :D

[Double Maduro]

Has anyone done tests to see how 9mm ammo performs from a 2.7 inch barrell?

[Blackhawk]

Goldenloki will as soon as he gets a gun, I'll bet! :D

Meanwhile, we can probably extrapolate from his P-11 tests (3.1" barrel) and other barrel length test data.

[Double Maduro]

Probably be a big differance between the 2.

I think there was a thread here in the last week of so about a shootout at a gunshop. The good guy was using some highperformance rounds in his compact and they didn't expand at all.

Just wondering, $1000 is out of my price range.

[Selfdfenz]

Double Maduro,
I was thinking the same thing. Velocity?? Energy?? Have to wait on G.Loki but the data and pictures will be good when he does it.
One would expect a pretty significant flash signature at night with a short tube like that me thinks. Might explain why sights are questionable. I like sights all the same.

Even if this pistol is only half successful, it will spawn other companies to try and do the same thing if interest is great. And it sounds like it might go that way.

Also, wonder what an extra mag will cost? Sure hope it comes with a spare.

Thanks Blackhawk for keeping us informed. I'm very interested in this pistol. I wish this Company success.
S-

[Blackhawk]

If you shoot a P-89 alongside a P-11, you'll definitely notice the much greater noise and flash from the P-11. A 9mm Luger was made for a significantly longer tube, and the R-9 will have more flash and noise than the P-11, all at the expense of velocity and energy.

Since the R-9 will be the consummate SD pistol, my guess is that RBCD or other light bullet ammo will be preferred. My prediction: The R-9 will be a one shot COM stopper with something like RBCD ammo from up close and personal ranges. We shall see.... :D

[wun_8_seven]

i looked at these at the shot show, looked like a $800. jennings to me. 187

[WonderNine]

It's always humorous to me when somebody questions the durability of a mousegun and then someone else responds with, well if it breaks you can just send it back they have an excellent warranty! :scrutiny:

I wonder does that warranty include life insurance? :uhoh:

I want something durable and something that lasts. Especially for the amount of money being asked for the Rohrbaugh. :barf:

[Blackhawk]

It is humorous in a dark way, but all guns are machines, and all machines break.

A TFLer last year was shocked to find the hammer on his P-32 flopping around as he fondled it in his pocket. Without any provocation, the hammer spring had broken while the pistol rested in his pocket! He didn't realize it until then, but the gun he may have been confidently relying on, was broken.

The P-32 and P-11 use extension springs for the hammer spring.

The R-9 uses a compression spring. One less thing to go wrong.

WHEN something DOES go wrong, you have to hope you don't discover it when you can't afford for there to be anything wrong. It's not a question of IF.... :uhoh:

[NJ3]

It's always humorous to me when somebody questions the durability of a mousegun and then someone else responds with, well if it breaks you can just send it back they have an excellent warranty!

I wonder does that warranty include life insurance?

I want something durable and something that lasts. Especially for the amount of money being asked for the Rohrbaugh.

I've wondered what would happen if this $1000 mouse gun flops and Rohrbaugh goes belly up. (I hope that doesn't happen BTW). How does the lifetime warranty help then? It doesn't!

[Blackhawk]

I've wondered what would happen if this $1000 mouse gun flops and Rohrbaugh goes belly up. (I hope that doesn't happen BTW). How does the lifetime warranty help then? It doesn't!Right. But the same warranty hazards exist no matter what you buy. S&W sold for $15m of paper...!? Amazing! What about those poor schlubs who bought Chrysler Corporation vehicles on the eve of its liquidation brinksmanship?

The bottom line is that accepting a warranty in lieu of absolute assurance that you'll get the benefit of your bargain is an exercise of faith whether the manufacturer is new and feeble or old and backed up by the contents of Fort Knox. As the cliche goes, "you pay your money and take your chances." The main reason I like warranties is that they're a statement of good faith on the part of the manufacturer.

In this case, the name of the company and the name of the product is the name of the owners. If they go belly-up, they'll have to change their name or live underground. I know them well enough to know they're not going to do anything to get mud on their name. :D

[WonderNine]

Dude, that's a lot of money to shell out for a paperweight! ;)

Ouch harsh criticism! But seriously, tell me what other 4 shot .357 magnum can you walk around with all day at work in your front pants pocket? ;)

I'll bet you don't own a mousegun that's loaded with .357 Remington Golden Sabers :cool:

[WonderNine]

Right. But the same warranty hazards exist no matter what you buy. S&W sold for $15m of paper...!? Amazing! What about those poor schlubs who bought Chrysler Corporation vehicles on the eve of its liquidation brinksmanship?

The bottom line is that accepting a warranty in lieu of absolute assurance that you'll get the benefit of your bargain is an exercise of faith whether the manufacturer is new and feeble or old and backed up by the contents of Fort Knox. As the cliche goes, "you pay your money and take your chances." The main reason I like warranties is that they're a statement of good faith on the part of the manufacturer.

In this case, the name of the company and the name of the product is the name of the owners. If they go belly-up, they'll have to change their name or live underground. I know them well enough to know they're not going to do anything to get mud on their name.

Your statement here displays the reasons why I'm looking for a good high quality mousegun to carry and not a Kel-Tec. I want something that will last. Something that I can rely on with reasonable assurance that it will work if the time comes that I need it. I'm also of the motto carry two guns whenever possible. In addition to my Cop .357 I'd like to get a .357 American derringer DA-38 model when I can afford it. Also I'd like one in 9mm, but we'll see if I have the cash flow to provide for that as well.

[Silver Bullet]

and it will own the genre for at least a year
How did you compute this ? Do you know of another company that has something similar in the works, or do you just figure it will take someone that long to copy the R-9 ?

[Blackhawk]

More of a CWAG than a WAG, but still a guess nevertheless.... :D

[harrydog]

I had emailed the company, asking about their choice of 7075 aluminum.
Eric Rohrbaugh took the time to answer me. He explained that the choice of frame material for the R9 was not an easy one. They finally decided on 7075 aluminum because it had good strength characteristics (though not as good as titanium) at a reasonable price. Had they gone with titanium, the cost of the base R9 would have been higher, and they wanted to keep the cost under $1K.
He did say that they have had numerous inquiries about the possibility of other frame materials and, since they listen to customer input, may offer an all 17-4 version, or one with a titanium frame in the future, as an extra cost option. He said they believe in listening to the buying public.
That's good news to me!

[C-Note]

Bumping this back up to the top. I'm dying to get one of these microblasters!

[WonderNine]

Hmm....I may be waiting for the titanium frame :)

[Pocket Pistol]

Waiting and drooling

[denfoote]

12.3 oz!! OUCH!!! :what:

If this is anything like the Ti/Sc .357mag/.38spl revolvers, then my guess is that it will be somewhat painful to shoot, especially with +P loads!! :eek: Have you shot one yet, Blackhawk???

This brings up the problem of "carried much, shot little"!!

Even my blued steel .357 snub is somewhat painfull to shoot!! ;)

Small and thin is not going to make for a fun practice session!!! :rolleyes:

Nice gun, but I think I'll just keep my "old technology" Kahr MK9!!! :evil:

[Blackhawk]

Have you shot one yet, Blackhawk???Nope. I haven't even seen a production one yet!

The felt recoil is reportedly like shooting a PPK .380. I don't expect +P or +P+ loads are going to affect the recoil much. The short barrel is going to result in the "upload" powder being wasted as blast and flash instead of accelerating the bullet, IMO. Recoil is a direct effect of accelerating the bullet.

[denfoote]

I dunno. The force of the recoil is a function of the mass (weight, which is (mass)( the gravitational constant, g).

I'm just extrapolating from the known data, which involves the S&W Sc/Ti revolvers!! It is a well known fact of physics that the lighter the gun, the more felt recoil there is!! Even the great Massod Ayoob stated that the recoil of these revolvers was indeed painfull!! I expect this gun to be simular!! I might be wrong, but at this point, I think not!!

[Blackhawk]

Well, mass x acceleration, as in for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. The recoil impulse is the reaction of the powder's burning pressurizing the space behind the bullet to accelerate it. The velocity loss in short barrels is due to the pressure dropping prematurely for the powder load as the bullet exits the muzzle.

Since powder has a fixed rate of combustion depending on the pressure developed, more powder in a short barrel simply cannot accelerate the bullet any better -- meaning that the barrel length will be the limiting factor of the recoil impulse.

I just reread the previous two paragraphs, and they may need to be taken out back and shot.

The bottom line is that recoil is a function of the acceleration of the bullet, and short barrels waste a lot of the powder's potential energy to speed up the bullet. Equal weight bullets are assumed in all of this.

[New_comer]

Compared to a full size gun, I'd imagine that bullet velocity in such a small gun could be reduced by 10-15%. Hence recoil, as a directly proportional function of bullet speed, would be lower by just as much.

But I have to agree with denfoote here. The smaller grip area will tend to increase the sting of every shot, as compared to full sized grip, whatever the reduced PF of the impulse would be.

Practice would be a chore, not fun at all... :(

[9x19]

denfootes comparisons still hold up as the ti and sc revo's he mentioned have a 2" barrel, even given the difference in measuring a revo' vs a pistol, that's still not much longer than the R9s 2.7"... doubtfully small enough to render the argument that perceived recoil will be signifcantly less. The different grip shape MAY make it less punishing, but... at $1000 MSRP, it better be comfortable to shoot. :uhoh:

I wonder if Kel-Tec's planning to introduce a single stack 9mm with a trigger action akin to the P-32 (and rumored P-3AT) at the (February) 2004 SHOT show? :D

Might take some of the wind out of Rohrbaugh's sails.:D

I hope it all works out for you Blackhawk, but I fear the price will need to drop significantly for them to survive past the first year... especially given the current state of the economy.

[grodaorhgih]

If Seecamp has been making mouseguns for thirty years, and they had a very hard time putting there .380 to market. I am not expecting much of this new company. (I will believe it when I see it)
Correct me if I am wrong but doesn't Seecamp recommend changing your springs after every 150 rounds out of there .380? Does that extrapolate into new springs for every 50 rd. box of ammo from this 9mm mouse?

[Blackhawk]

9x19, firing a 12.3 ounce blowback pistol versus a same weight revolver using the same ammo and equivalent barrel lengths would be comparable in the recoil department. However, a Browning type tilting barrel locked breech pistol is a whole 'nuther ball game. The R-9 is that kind of critter, and that's why its recoil is supposedly comparable to a PPK .380.

The question spawning this thread facet was Denfoote's wondering how +P ammo would affect recoil in the R-9. I'm just speculating that it won't due to the short barrel not allowing the powder upload for +P to have any beneficial effect in accelerating the bullet. I think the muzzle velocity will be the same with the same ammo. We'll have to wait and see.

You said:I hope it all works out for you Blackhawk, ....Thanks, and likewise, but that sounds like you think I have a vested interest of some sort in Rohrbaugh. I don't. I'm hopelessly in favor, however, of any innovations in the field that promise to provide a product I can buy that tickles my fancy. A P-32 sized 9mm pocket pistol is something I definitely want to see!

[Blackhawk]

grodaorhgih, the big difference is that Seecamps are blowback designs. The R-9 is a locked breech design. Night and day....

I doubt if the R-9 will have to have its recoil springs replaced any more often than any other locked breech pistol.

[firestar]

That is much smaller than the PM9! I like the idea a lot but I can't fork over 1K for a pocket 9mm. I am struggling with the idea of paying $500+ for the PM9!

I love the idea and hope it is successful so that other makers follow suit and we have a wide choice of 9mm pocket guns to choose from.

[harrydog]

I don't have any more problem forking over $1,000 for a pocket gun than I do forking over that much or more for a full size 1911. It's the quality of design, materials, and construction that I'm willing to pay for.
The Rohrbaugh seems to have all three of those attributes.
I'm waiting for the all stainless steel version though, since I think the added weight can only make it a better shooter.

[duncan]

It's a nice idea but can that thing offer any real FPE?

With that weight, if they cannot deliver at least 400 FPE, at $1K a pop, they won't sell too many once the chronographs start showing their real data out of a 2" barrel.

And the lighter bullets game will not fly. People are not made out of clay so scrap the sub 40 grain 9mm rounds.

[Blackhawk]

Don't be silly, Duncan. Most 9mm loads can't deliver 400 FPE from a 4" barrel! :D