.22LR Subsonic


PDA






308win
March 17, 2005, 06:10 PM
A heron has decided to make our water garden his buffet. I know he is only doing what comes natural but he picked the wrong water garden and should have went to the one down the street. I picked up a box of .22LR subsonic HP's and I was wondering how loud they will be as compared to a regular 22LR?

If you enjoyed reading about ".22LR Subsonic" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
Chipperman
March 17, 2005, 06:12 PM
I think Herons are protected in some states. Make sure it's legal before you plug him.

SLCDave
March 17, 2005, 06:37 PM
It also depends on what you're shooting them out of. A Beretta 21A, still loud. A bolt action rifle, not very loud. Go somewhere you can legally practice and find out.

Sachse
March 17, 2005, 07:02 PM
Longer the barrel the quieter the subsonics will be. After 13" inches in the barrel the bullets start to slow down.

308win
March 17, 2005, 07:05 PM
I think Herons are protected in some states.

Yes they are and so are my Shebunkins and Sarasa Comets now. :fire:

cracked butt
March 17, 2005, 07:33 PM
Herons are a protected species, don't be the goober with the gun in the newspaper that has been caught shooting one. :fire:

Call up your state DNR agency for ideas on how to keep them out of your precious garden, or spray them with a hose when you see them or ty putting up coyote or fox decoys.

http://www.ponddoc.com/WhatsUpDoc/Predators/GreatBlue.html

redneck2
March 17, 2005, 07:52 PM
last nite with a .22 subsonic. Louder than you want if you're trying to be stealthy

Also, I have a problem with shooting herons as they're protected

The non-lethal answer to your problem is to stretch fishing line across your pond about every 3 feet on stakes. The herons will try to wade and trip over the lines and leave.

shermacman
March 17, 2005, 08:26 PM
Don't shoot the heron! You made a water garden, enjoy it, you can't plan everything. If you really can't stand it, get a pest control owl, the plastic ones at garden centers and farm supplies.

Having said that, I bought a box of Remington sub-sonic .22lr to "alter" the feeding habits of squirrels. They are at least as loud as the Federal bulk pacs from WallyWorld. The quietest .22lr's are from CCI. They crack like a broken branch out of my Winchester bolt rifle.

By the way, out of my .22 pistols, they are all loud!

308win
March 17, 2005, 09:02 PM
OK, OK! The cannibalistic feathered hemorrhoid got a 24 hr reprieve. I just finished stretching bird netting used to protect fruit trees over the water garden. The SOB had better be discouraged. :cuss:

cracked butt
March 17, 2005, 09:08 PM
Hey don't feel like you are alone. :D There are two ponds in my neighborhood and the local Heron flies between the two with my backyard in the direct path. Ever seen a thick line of bird crap that stretches 30'+ :barf:

Gordon
March 17, 2005, 10:12 PM
I wouldn't blast the heron, I used to when I ran a trout farm , I am not proud of it today! :o

GlocksRock
March 18, 2005, 10:19 AM
CB caps are powerful enough to kill a small animal and are waaaay quieter than subsonic rounds, they sound like an airgun going off.

Harry Tuttle
March 18, 2005, 11:08 AM
paintball!

M67
March 18, 2005, 01:03 PM
The SOB had better be discouraged. Son Of a Bird?

mfree
March 18, 2005, 01:04 PM
Think potato cannon with no load. I've fired my first empty with a starting fluid load and it rattled off the hills. Good luck convincing the neighbors you actually didn't shoot the .22 though.

Shoot it early and often... with 35mm :)

Hellbore
March 18, 2005, 01:21 PM
Why would you even want to kill it? Is it hurting anything? Is it eating your fish or something?

BTW I second the paintball idea... We had a big stray tomcat that was coming around the yard all the time and eating the dog food (the dogs were letting him). Then he was pooping in the yard and the dogs were eating his poop and getting worms :cuss: :cuss: :cuss: In case you didn't know, cat poop is the utmost delicacy to a dog, they can't stay away from it!

Nothing else worked to keep him away so I snuck up on him while he was eating the dog food (harder than it sounds, sneaking up on a cat) and got him with a pump paintball gun. He never came back but he is alive and well, I see him around the neighborhood. I couldn't bring myself to kill him because there was a small chance he was someone's beloved pet.

Hellbore
March 18, 2005, 01:26 PM
BTW I heard you can get a license from the government to kill limited numbers of herons. You might need one of these to legally kill it.

waktasz
March 18, 2005, 01:30 PM
Get the aguila ammo (damnit the name escapes me) that is just a .22 with a primer, no powder. Very quiet out of a rifle, but won't cycle the action on a semi-auto.


edit: its Aguila .22 colobri. I actually have some that I got to use inthe woods out of my .22 pistol but it's still too loud to use because civilization is still only a few hundred yards away. If you want to pay shipping you can have it, I probably have 480 out of a 500 box left.

El Rojo
March 18, 2005, 01:33 PM
As far as the original question goes, the .22 subsonic are not quiet. They are rather loud. I honestly don't think there is much difference between the .22 subsonics and regular ammunition as far as noise goes. I most certainly wouldn't use them in a covert heron operation.

I just bought some of the Aguila Super Colobri 20 gr. .22LR rounds. Now those are quiet. They are not that accurate, but if you are shooting something within say 10-20 yards, it might do the trick. Last year I trapped 10 ground squirrels out of my back yard in a cat trap. I was tempted to shoot them with the .22, but didn't want to take the chance. These Super Colobri's are so weak and very quiet, this year it is on! I am actually waiting for the squirrels to come back this year!

I have another question. What is wrong with having a heron in your water pond? I don't know about yall, but I would enjoy watching a heron in my water pond (if I had one). Now if I had expensive fish in there, I would understand.

308win
March 18, 2005, 02:25 PM
Now if I had expensive fish in there, I would understand.

There it is!

We have had some of them for five years now; they are more highly prized than any of our neighbors, some of our family, and certianly more than some mope heron too lazy to work for his living.

I like the idea of a paintball gun, I will have to borrow my son-in-law's.

The nearest gun shop only had bricks of 22lr and packs if cci subsonics so I got what I could get. I will stop at Fin, Fur, and Feather this weekend and get a box of CBs.

In the mean time, the fruit tree netting has worked so far today as I can't see any sign of him being around. I am going to try the owl deal also. There is a Harrier hawk that hangs around the neighborhood but he is just like police, never around when you need him.

SONICMASD
March 18, 2005, 02:38 PM
If you want to shoot and not be heard use AGUILA COLOBRI 22, NO GUNPOWDER. Comes in a red box and has a hummingbird on it. YOU CANNOT HEAR THESE AT ALL, ALL YOU HERE IS THE ACTION SLAMMING and then the BULLET HITTING. they are quieter than an air gun. I use them all the time for "Urban Hunting" They drop rabbits if placed in the head/neck.

brian roberts
March 18, 2005, 02:55 PM
its my understanding that Arkansas is the only state that allows heron shooting, & there only if you have a fish farm. But THOSE Arkansans can shoot them w/machine guns, (if they have them). :cool:

Domino
March 18, 2005, 03:40 PM
As far as the original question goes, the .22 subsonic are not quiet. They are rather loud. I honestly don't think there is much difference between the .22 subsonics and regular ammunition as far as noise goes. I most certainly wouldn't use them in a covert heron operation.
Actually, all of the subsonic ammunition I've fired out of my 10/22 or Mossberg bolt action has been amazingly quiet. I don't know where you got your conclusions but subsonic ammo with rifles = VERY quiet and subsonic ammo with pistols = loud. It sounds more like a pellet gun than a firearm and is very hard to distinguish the location of the shot. Most of the heavier subsonic bullets will tumble after about 50 yards or so due to lack of stability from the twist of the barrel, although speacial barrels can be found with the proper twist rate for the slower heavier bullets. But, the best ammo I've found is the CCI subsonic 40g hollow point (http://www.cci-ammunition.com/default.asp?menu=1&s1=3&pg=18&prod_id=11) which is the most consistant and accurate of all the subsonic ammo. At 80 yards I could get groups under 1.5" from my stock 10/22 with no sign of bullet tumbling and 100% flawless function. Its the perfect quiet ammo so give it a try.

stevelyn
March 18, 2005, 04:25 PM
Another vote for Aguila Super Colibris. They launch a 20 gr bullet @ 500fps on the priming alone. They are soooooooo quiet. :D They won't cycle a semi-auto, so you end up with a straight-pull bolt gun when you use them. I've killed tundra squirrels with them and make clean kills. Their accuracy is a little erratic, so you'll have to play around with them a bit to see where they hit.
I have a couple of heavy gauge metal canisters that used to contain Speyburn scotch. They are on the limbs of an alder bush about 25 yrds from the back of my house. I consistently punch holes in them shooting from my bedroom window with the Super Colibris. I'm certain they'll mess up the veterinary records of any heron hit with them.

landon74
March 18, 2005, 05:06 PM
Since we're speaking hypothetically, I'd used an air rifle, say a .177 at about 1000 fps, target pellets, shoot it in the head, hypothetically speaking of course...

standingbear
March 19, 2005, 10:56 AM
maybe get a soft air bb pistol....my neighbor uses his to discourage squirrels from destroying his bird feeder,its quite comical to watch,hes getting to be a good shot.the bbs are plastic and wont kill it...they average about 250-300 feet per second...but then it leaves those bright blue bbs everywhere.


there are motion activated owls and such that novelty stores sell or get a motion sensor and wire it to a buzzer or something with an on/off switch.its very easy to do.

Mike Hull
March 19, 2005, 12:42 PM
CB caps are powerful enough to kill a small animal and are waaaay quieter than subsonic rounds, they sound like an airgun going off.

Exactly! CCI long, or short CB's are the best, and quietest for this sort of thing, IMO.

The longs can be used in semi auto's and manually fed, where the shorts might not feed well. In fact the long CB's work well in a lot of rifles where shorts cause feeding problems.

But I see that you found a more humane solution, so good on ya!! :D

PowderBurn
March 19, 2005, 01:26 PM
Actually, all of the subsonic ammunition I've fired out of my 10/22 or Mossberg bolt action has been amazingly quiet. I don't know where you got your conclusions but subsonic ammo with rifles = VERY quiet and subsonic ammo with pistols = loud.
Perhaps it would be helpful to make a distinction here: CB ammo is noticeably quieter than other .22 ammo, even when fired out of a handgun. CB is also subsonic. But not all subsonic ammo is CB. So some non-CB subsonic ammo is still reasonably potent, and loud.

IMHO, of course.

El Rojo
March 19, 2005, 02:40 PM
I don't know where you got your conclusions but subsonic ammo with rifles = VERY quiet and subsonic ammo with pistols = loud.I made my conclusion from shooting the Remington subsonic out of my Ruger 10/22 and it sounding almost the same as a normal .22LR. Now Powderburn brings up a good point, not all subsonic is the same. You are probably not talking about Remington Subsonic or Federal 711B. I am and I know it sounds just as loud as my regular .22LR ammo.

I have shot Super Colobri and it sounds a little quieter than a pellet gun and it doesn't even cycle the 10/22. Really the only way to find out is go buy some and shoot it in a safe place and decide for yourself. Remember, if this needs to be a covert action, make it so. Don't take a risk before you carefully make a plan. Robert Blake has expensive attorneys, but you are shooting herons (that is ten times worse than your estranged wife) and you probably don't have the money for attorneys, so you might concievably be spending the next 33 years in prison if you are caught. :banghead:

Khornet
March 19, 2005, 04:12 PM
There is a small ond in my backyard, maybe 30' long by 20' wide. Ther were Koi in there, two of which were easily 5 lb fish and were nearly 20 yrs old as far as I can tell. There were hundreds of smaller Koi from inches to almost a foot.

For the last few years a heron has been working on them. He of course couldn't carry away a 5 lb fish--I think-- but her certainly could seriously injure one and let the raccoons get it. He cleaned out that pond in the end. I tried to catch him with a .22 CB long many times but he is very alert and wary.

These are protected birds. Humans and their property are however not protected. My pond is fish-free, and heron-free, now.

308win
March 19, 2005, 05:28 PM
I bought the CCI Subsonic 40gr HP's so I know they will be way louder than CBs (or at least the CBs I remember from my now long ago youth). I doubt that a CB would terminate a wrascally heron unless one was (a) CLOSE and (b) hit him in the head. If I have to escalate this regime change my intent is to nail him in the butt with the CB's which should get he message across. Frankly since the rush of indignation has subsided, I am leary of using the CCI Subsonics as I am afraid they could go through him and hit something I might not intend to hit (such as the pond liner or a neighbor's house). As of right now the fruit tree netting seems to have discouraged him - since the last time he was here, standing on the netting with his beak stuck through it and my wife home alone - so that was his lucky day.

El Rojo
March 19, 2005, 06:54 PM
I have killed a chipmunk with a paintball once. I know paintballs will discourage bears from coming back around as well. Paint can easily be washed away and probably won't break a window.

308win
March 19, 2005, 07:00 PM
I think my son-in-law has one of the automatic type paintball guns. If he does and it does come back and I can hit it it is going to look like bozo the clown by the time it is out of range. Maybe it will be too embarrased to come aroung anymore. :D On the other hand, I still haven't seen any sign of it for two days now. :scrutiny:

Now, if someone made paintballs filled with OC - just imagine how the heron would feel by the time he could see again.

308win
March 19, 2005, 07:06 PM
Now, if someone made paintballs filled with OC

Not trying to hijack the thread but that is a hell of concept for crowd control or a situation where one needed a non-leathal way to incapacitate someone/thing long enough to get it under control.

Tacoma
March 19, 2005, 07:06 PM
The CCI subsonics should work fine. I'm told, ;) The trick is to fire only once so it doesn't draw attention. Two or three shots ID the noise as gun shots. Forget the collibi/super colibri. It's more anemic than most pellet guns and more prone to ricoshette.

Bigfoot
March 19, 2005, 07:12 PM
Can you shoot heron just one time, doesn't it become a habit?

308win
March 19, 2005, 07:16 PM
Don't know, never done it. Might be like hitting a skunk with your car - one time is all of that enjoyment you can stand.

30 cal slob
March 19, 2005, 09:29 PM
Use a bow. ;)

wasrjoe
March 19, 2005, 09:41 PM
Can you shoot heron just one time, doesn't it become a habit?

Hahaha, hahahaha.

gaven
March 19, 2005, 10:49 PM
12 Ga. 3 Inch Mag. #4 Shot

Domino
March 20, 2005, 12:31 AM
I made my conclusion from shooting the Remington subsonic out of my Ruger 10/22 and it sounding almost the same as a normal .22LR. Now Powderburn brings up a good point, not all subsonic is the same. You are probably not talking about Remington Subsonic or Federal 711B. I am and I know it sounds just as loud as my regular .22LR ammo.

I've never shot the Federal 711B, but I have shot plenty of the Remington 22 Subsonic ammo and in my rifles it is certainly "quieter" than standard ammunition, although it does not feed well in my autoloaders so I abandoned it. If you are interested i would advise the CCI as it works great and is quiet and accurate.

El Rojo
March 20, 2005, 02:05 AM
They do make paintballs with OC in them. I don't know if us mere mortals can get a hold of them, but they most certainly exist.

Mike Hull
March 20, 2005, 12:49 PM
I bought the CCI Subsonic 40gr HP's so I know they will be way louder than CBs (or at least the CBs I remember from my now long ago youth). I doubt that a CB would terminate a wrascally heron unless one was (a) CLOSE and (b) hit him in the head.


I've killed coyote with CB's in my back yard, shooting through a screen to do it, among other things.
A doctor I know uses CB's shot from a Ruger 77/22 to kill large racoons quite often, many with chest shots(when that's all that was offered). They are very lethal within range.

I was sighting in a new scope on one of my .22's, using CB caps, shooting from the garage, into my shop, about a distance of 40' or so. I missed the backstop of old phone books, and it put a serious ding in the heavy gauge sheet steel of my bandsaw, which they were sitting on. :uhoh:
I have a great respect for their power. ;)

Harry Tuttle
March 20, 2005, 04:51 PM
there was a raccoon on my 2nd floor deck last night

this morning, a section of the screen over the koi pond was chewed open

Dread Pirate 257 Roberts
March 21, 2005, 01:57 PM
There are two sounds to a gun shot. One is the muzzle blast - several thousand PSI of pressure being suddenly unplugged when the bullet exits the muzzle.

The other is the crack of the bullet breaking the sound barrier.

A subsonic round eliminates the second sound, but not the first.

In a given cartridge, you can make it subsonic in one of two ways: (1) reduce the powder charge. (2) make the bullet heavier.

Most subsonic .22 rounds use number (1) with the standard 40 grain bullet. Since there's less powder, and less pressure, the muzzle blast should be reduced below that of a standard velocity round.

Subsonic bullets eliminate the crack. Suppressors reduce the muzzle blast. What you need is a suppressor!

BTW, the Aguila SSS rounds use a heavier, longer bullet to reduce the speed, but retain most of the energy of a standard velocity round with a 40 grain bullet. The problem, as mentioned, is that their length requires a faster twist than a standard .22LR rifle has. There are barrels available for 10/22's with a faster twist for the SSS. I've often thought that the SSS's might work well in an AR with a Ciener conversion.

Rockstar
March 21, 2005, 02:14 PM
I'm SOOO relieved that the offending feathered fisher isn't a Bald Eagle.

308win
March 21, 2005, 03:25 PM
I'm SOOO relieved that the offending feathered fisher isn't a Bald Eagle.

Most of my experience with bald eagles has been around goose hunting areas. The bald eagles I have observed would much rather eat carrion than work at catching something alive. I remember about 25 years ago we were hunting at a state hunting area in souther Illinois when one of the 'sports' took a shot at a bald eagle foraging for dead geese. By the time the refuge staff got to his pit there was a line of hunters several deep volunteering to whitness to what he did.

jerepowers
December 8, 2006, 10:07 AM
This is essentially a 22 short case with an extra large lead bullet that makes it the same size as a 22lr. It has more mass and less powder. It feeds in my Walther pistol. The SSS stands for Sub Sonic Snyper. It makes about half the noise of a regular subsonic 22.

But don't shoot the heron. They're beautiful birds and it's illegal. My father-in-law shot five Canada geese (with one 410 shot) and was fined more than $500. The neighbors called the DNR immediately. He didn't even have the shotgun put away when they arrived. And, if the heron doesn't get the koi, the osprey will. This just nature against human vanity of trying to change our surroundings and the vanity loses everytime. And we're all guilty of it -- growing grass in the desert, planting palm trees in Oregon, etc.

Sleeping Dog
December 8, 2006, 10:47 AM
Wolf .22LR seems very quiet in a long gun. It's pretty low-power, won't cycle my Ruger 22/45, so I only use it in bolt guns. Accurate, too.

Good luck with the netting. hopefully the heron will just move to some other pond.

mainmech48
December 8, 2006, 11:13 AM
Killing or even wounding the heron might just buy you a whole world of trouble, and not just with the State boys. If by some weird chance it happens to be deemed a "migratory waterfowl" (and it does migrate) the Feds could jump in with both feet and land right on your butt. Your "fish money" for the next few decades would end up paying the fine.

Believe me, I do sympathize. I'm a great fancier of both koi and goldfish (with a special fondness for Shubunkin Comets) and have been known to drive all the way to St. Louis to spend the weekend at the Botanical Gardens (aka Shaw's Gardens) feeding and admiring the koi in their Japanese formal garden - one of the finest west of Japan.

IMO, something like the paintballs or the motion sensor-activated scare device would be your most judicious option. FWIW, folks around here have a lot more trouble with raccoons preying on their fish, frogs and other watergarden fauna than they do herons. But then again, most of them live in town and most heron species, especially Great Blues, tend to be wary of people which is why they make "confidence" decoys of them to sell to duck, goose and crane hunters.

PS: Aquilla now has a warning about using Colibris and Super Colibris in rifles. Seems that there have been instances where the projectiles have failed to exit the longer barrel and caused some damage when a full-strength round was fired behind it. Their ads in the catalogs now recommend them only for handguns. Sounds as if the lawyers have been busy somewhere and we haven't heard about it before now.

308win
December 8, 2006, 11:32 AM
The SOB got both of my shebunkins this spring (had them for 5 years) and two of my big sarasa comets. But he hasn't been seen in the neighborhood lately:D

Bigfoot
December 8, 2006, 08:03 PM
Don't buy a large quantity of Aguila SSS until you test shoot a few in your gun first. Not many factory 22LR barrels have enough twist to stabilise them.

mainmech48
December 9, 2006, 09:36 AM
Bigfoot is right. Most .22 RF barrels are 1-16", which will not stabilize that long 60 gr. projectile worth a hoot. The replacement barrels made under the "Poseidon" brand name and marketed by Aquilla for Ruger 10 and 77/22s are 1-9".

In my rifles, the SSS rounds generally yield poor-to-mediocre accuracy and often show signs of instability such as partial "keyholing", even at as little as 25 yds. Out of a fellow club member's rebarreled 77/22 they'll group into less than 1/2" at 50 yds from sandbags.

I've heard and read that this concept had its start as a round for supressed short-range sniper rifles developed by the Israelis and the Russians. Anyone know where to go for pics and technical data about either of these exotics?

dfaugh
December 9, 2006, 10:30 AM
Yes, it seems the Aguila SSS either have dismal accuracy, or good (actually very good in my Marlin 60)...there's no in-between (apparently because of barrel twist, as stated.) they do drop like stones over longer distance (If I sight in at 50 with "regular" ammo, they will shoot 6" low)

They cycle my 60 just fine, but they really aren't very quiet, no more quiet than alot of "standard velocity" rounds, but I think that's because its a semi. will have to try some in my bolt action, see if they're quieter.

Also note that most, if not all "standard velocity" .22 ammo is sub-sonic. And in many of of mine, and my buddies guns, its more accurate.

If you enjoyed reading about ".22LR Subsonic" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!