Poor man's guns.


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albanian
March 17, 2005, 06:31 PM
What guns do you consider a poor man's version of something else. It doesn't have to be insulting mind you.

I'll give a few examples that have been sticking in my mind.

I always considered the SKS a poor man's M1 garand. It is similar enough that the shooter can get a general feel of how an M1 would feel like to shoot. If you didn't have the money to buy a real M1 and feed it the more expensive 30.06 ammo, you could fool yourself with a SKS and shoot cheaper, less powerful ammo. It is not a clone but is an inexpensive way to at least pretend if you wanted to. The SKS is a great rifle in it's own right but it always reminded me of a economy Garand for some reason.

The CZ-52 is very loosely a poor man's Auto-Mag. It is a more powerful cartridge than normal and it can really punch holes in things. I have never fired an Automag so I may be way off course but that is what the CZ-52 makes me think of.

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P95Carry
March 17, 2005, 06:38 PM
Main one that comes immediately to mind is the FEG PJK-9HP ... Hi-Power clone for 9mm. It is so close as to be near identical, tho I'll accept metallurgy probably (inevitably) not up there.

I don't own any - but am guessing Star and Astra 1911's are (relatively) poor man's Colts!? Maybe the Norinco too?

Larry Ashcraft
March 17, 2005, 06:45 PM
Browning Citori = poor man's Superposed.

(I own the Citori ;) )

EghtySx
March 17, 2005, 06:47 PM
What guns do you consider a poor man's version of something else.

Anything that isn't a Colt :neener:

WillBrayJr
March 17, 2005, 06:48 PM
Sporterize a K98 Mauser with a ATI Steyr Scout stock and you got a poor man's sniper rifle!

Checkman
March 17, 2005, 06:49 PM
Anything by Star, Asta, Llama, and Norinco. Many of their handguns are almost exact copies of S&W and Sig.

Chipperman
March 17, 2005, 06:50 PM
Taurus copies of Berettas and S&W.
Not exactly "cheap", but less than the originals.

Charles Daly, Rock Island, and other "low-end" 1911's

Makarovs were essentially copies of Walthers

StephenT
March 17, 2005, 07:00 PM
Norinco makes inexpensive copies of many classic designs. I've got their 1911A1, Makarov and 1897 trench shotgun, all three excellent quality.

Bersa 380, copy of the pricey Walther PPK.

I've got a Rossi 38 snubnose that is very similar to the S&W 60.

Sistema 1927 vs. a Colt 1911A1

Definitely the FEG hi power copy as mentioned above. Or the Argentine version.

Also, my HS-2000 is a poor man's copy of the more expensive, but otherwise identical XD-9. It cost me $299 at the time.

Dave Markowitz
March 17, 2005, 07:29 PM
Makarovs were essentially copies of Walthers.

I wish people would stop repeating this. It's not true. The Makarov may share a few design features with the Walther PP but in general it is a much better design. It's simpler and more reliable.

orangeninja
March 17, 2005, 07:37 PM
Yugo 48A with scout scope...poor mans scout rifle.

Hi-Point Carbine = Poor man's pistol caliber carbine.
(It's a stretch)

Mosin......poor mans........Mosin. :D

School Belle
March 17, 2005, 07:40 PM
I bought and shoot a CZ 452 American in smallbore rifle silhouette because I was told it was the poor man's Anschutz. It has certainly proved itself accurate.

jsalcedo
March 17, 2005, 07:49 PM
Uberti SAA clone for $339 instead of Colt for $1200 to $1500

The_Antibubba
March 17, 2005, 08:00 PM
Whenever I hear the phase "Poor Man's X", I think of something that is improvised or jury-rigged. To me, an SKS is not an improvised anything; it's a fine rifle for the purpose, time, and place of it's making. A Makarov is probably more reliable than the Walther it superficially resembles. And a Yugo 8 mm Mauser is still a Mauser, considered by many to be the epitome of bolt action design.

You're confusing economics and price with quality. Before the fall of the Soviet Union, Americans didn't have SKSs and AKs. Only a few collectors did, and they were VERY expensive. Nowadays, Bubba can buy two Yugos and chop one. The only Makarovs were those taken from VC by vets. Now, they're everywhere and very reasonable. Garands, on the other hand, while plentiful and cheap even 30 years ago, are becoming pricey, and models in good condition are headed toward four figures (And is a Garand a "poor man's" M1?)

I see an SKS as an economical battle rifle, and I would not feel undergunned with it. Likewise, while I might wish for a more potent round, I would not worry about whether my Makarov would fire-it would.

Going back to the improvised theme, though, I would consider a rifled shotgun to be a "poor man's" rifle, since it is a compromise-in this case, one brought about by various hunting regulations.

LeonCarr
March 17, 2005, 08:07 PM
A buddy of mine has a Remington 760/7600 pump .30-06 that he hunts with, and sometimes he uses an aftermarket 10 round magazine when he hunts hogs. With the 10 round magazine, I refer to it as the poor mans assault rifle :).

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

RoyG
March 17, 2005, 08:39 PM
Also, my HS-2000 is a poor man's copy of the more expensive, but otherwise identical XD-9. It cost me $299 at the time.

Nope

The HS-2000 was the pistol Springfield bought and renamed the XD-9 and added $100 to it's price. So I guess that makes the XD the expensive copy of the HS-2000.

Standing Wolf
March 17, 2005, 09:24 PM
Those plastic guns are poor people's real guns.

seeker_two
March 17, 2005, 10:05 PM
ALL my guns are "poor man's guns".... :D

Chipperman
March 17, 2005, 10:10 PM
"Makarovs were essentially copies of Walthers."

"I wish people would stop repeating this. It's not true. The Makarov may share a few design features with the Walther PP but in general it is a much better design. It's simpler and more reliable."
-------
I agree that the guns are not the same, but to deny that the Makarov design was "inspired" by the Walther I think is inaccurate.
Externally the guns are very similar, but the simple blowback design is different from the Walther.

Ian Hogg wrote that, "The Walther PP impressed most people who came into contact with it for the first time during the war; so much so hat many nations later produced copies, with or without the benefit of license. The Soviets were among the latter number, as the Makarov is simply an enlarged model PP chambered for the peculiar 9mm Makarov pistol round."

Now I won't say that I agree with everything Ian Hogg says, and the above statement is an oversimplification; but you would have to concede that he is considered an "authority" on gun history.

Another source is Jane's Infantry Weapons. The entry for Makarov says, "... The Makarov (PM) pistol is a copy of the Walther PP in its general size, shape and handling."

I believe that Walther actually attempted to sue for infringement, but I'll have to check on that.

So if Jane's and Hogg are both content to refer to the Mak as a "copy" of the Walther, I am as well.

albanian
March 17, 2005, 10:20 PM
By "poor man" I didn't mean that the gun had to be a cheap copy. I was just thinking a less expensive version that did everything the original did or at least gave the user the same general feeling when shooting the gun.

The Star BM is what I would consider the poor man's Colt 9mm Commander. It basically resembles the Colt and gives the user the same feeling of what it would be like to fire and own a 9mm Commander but at 1/4 the price.

These poor man's versions are great for people that what to try out a certain type of gun but don't want to sink a lot of cash into it. For example, I have always wanted a nice Cowboy SAA type revolver. The Ruger Blackhawks weren't close enough for me to consider them real cowboy guns so I got an Italian copy in .357 mag. It looked and felt just like the original Colt SAA but only cost a couple of hundred instead of $1200+. I got the idea of what it would be like to own a Colt SAA and what it would be like to shoot one. I was glad I did because while it was fun for a while, I found that SA revolvers are not my cup of tea. I like them but there are other guns I would rather have and enjoy much more. I was able to get a taste of an entire class of guns without spending too much money. For someone that was considering buying a Colt Commader, they could get a Star BM and see how they liked the setup. Maybe they will find that the 1911 style is not for them or maybe they will decide that it is nice and buy more.

M2 Carbine
March 17, 2005, 10:52 PM
Chipperman
"Makarovs were essentially copies of Walthers"

"Another source is Jane's Infantry Weapons. The entry for Makarov says, "... The Makarov (PM) pistol is a copy of the Walther PP in its general size, shape and handling."

---------------------------------------------

Chipperman, the Polish P64 is copied from the Walther but the Makarov is entirely different mechanically from the Walther.

The Jane's quote says only that the size is close and they are both "handle" the same.
That quote can be used for every semi auto pistol that's close to the size of the Walther.
It's actually a dumb statement.


And Ian Hogg's statement, "the Makarov is simply an enlarged model PP chambered for the peculiar 9mm Makarov pistol round."
is completely false as you can see.

The Makarov even has far less internal parts than the Walther. The Makarov isn't close to being "simply an enlarged model PP".

Walther (a PPK because it was the clearest I could find)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v135/Bell406_206B/Waltherppkb.jpg

Makarov
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v135/Bell406_206B/makarov_exploded.jpg

Fumbler
March 17, 2005, 11:51 PM
I'm a poor man.

My Sako is a Tikka T3 :)

M2 Carbine
March 18, 2005, 12:01 AM
In the late 50's and 60's we made Poor Man's sporting 30.06 rifles instead of buying the high price store bought rifles.
We would sporterize 1903A3 and A4 Springfields by cutting off the forward part of the stock and handguard.
The unused brand new rifles cost $14.50 from the government through the NRA. Price a 03 or 03A4 today. :eek:

I've still got this 03A3 rifle

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v135/Bell406_206B/03A3.jpg

and it's 03A4 brother. :)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v135/Bell406_206B/03A4.jpg

This is my poor man's Bond Arms Derringer. :)

FIE 38
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v135/Bell406_206B/FIEDerringer.jpg

itgoesboom
March 18, 2005, 12:09 AM
My CETME is a cheaper version of the HK 91.

Not really a clone, since the CETME came before the HK rifles, and it is the rifle that HK is based on.

But it is much cheaper than the HK series.

I.G.B.

cls12vg30
March 18, 2005, 12:03 PM
While it's obvious that the Mak was at the very least "inspired" by the Walther PP, it's certainly not a copy. As mentioned above it is quite different internally. And of course the most obvious difference to be seen when holding a Walther and a Mak side-by-side it the size. The Makarov is significantly wider and uses a bulkier slide, in order to facilitate using the 9x18 round in a straight-blowback. A more true Walther copy would be a Bersa Thunder .380.

LynnKCircle
March 18, 2005, 02:00 PM
Here's a poor man's Scout Rifle:

Ingredients - one Russian M44 mechanically excellent with excellent bore but badly dingged stock and scratched bluing. $60.00
- one Darrell's scout mount $60.00
- one CDNN Star Scope $60.00
- lots of fun work

Taking it to the range and letting the muzzle blast move the souls of the shooters on either side: PRICELESS!

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