oh the irony


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taliv
March 17, 2005, 08:35 PM
so i took a day of vacation and drove to a gunshop 200 miles away today to buy a bunch of reloading stuff. When I got there, I was surprised to see that poster of kennedy/kerry/hillary laughing, that says "what's so funny about banning guns?"

and next to it was a sign banning anyone from bringing a loaded gun into the store "for our safety"

so i went in a little less excited than i was when i first got there, as well as 2.5lbs lighter after a trip back to my truck, but after 200 miles, i figured i might as well. so i go in and behind the counter was a sign saying "PROTECT YOURSELF!"

***, guys? I WAS protected until I came into your store!

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SMLE
March 17, 2005, 10:31 PM
Most gun shops have signs that tell you to unload. The big reason is not fear of criminals, but simple safety. They have no way of knowing the competency level of everybody entering the store, so it's just plan good sense to have everybody clear their guns. Now I don't bother to clear my CCW as I usually have no intention of handling in the shop unless the SHTF. If I'm planning on trying some holsters, I will clear my CCW and carry in in my hand, action open. If I'm already in the shop and see a holster that interests me, I simply ask to see one of their Beretta 92s or 96s. I worked in a gun shop and it can get "interesting" sometimes when a stranger walks in with a gun, or suddenly pulls one from a pocket unanounced. We had regulars though that we trusted to carry loaded, but even one of them put a hole in the ceiling one afternoon.

Standing Wolf
March 17, 2005, 10:37 PM
...next to it was a sign banning anyone from bringing a loaded gun into the store "for our safety"

I'd have taken my dollars elsewhere and told those spiness anti-Second Amendment bigots precisely why. If you distrust your customers, they've got no business trusting you.

SMLE
March 17, 2005, 11:05 PM
Sorry Mr. Wolf, but I have to disagree with you. It's NOT a matter of "spinelessness" , it's a matter of SAFETY. When you shoot at an organized range, don't you have to clear your guns when you're not on the firing line? I guess the range officer is a "spiness anti-Second Amendment bigot" too?

If you can show me a gun store that does NOT have a similar sign or policy, I'll buy you a steak dinner.

SpookyPistolero
March 17, 2005, 11:14 PM
I agree with Standing Wolf.

My shop does not require me to disarm myself before entry. It would not be my shop if it did.

I like my steak medium rare, potatoes loaded.

PromptCritical
March 17, 2005, 11:19 PM
I think I have a reasonable explaination for those signs. Say there was a whole bunch of customers carrying in the store. Some yahoo comes in and tries to hold the place up. Within seconds you would have a whole lot of weapons being drawn. If the robber has an acomplice in the store, the result could be a bloodbath. I believe it's better if only the employees and police are armed in the store. That way, everyone knows who the good guys and bad guys are. It may not be the store owners reason, but it would be mine.

SRYnidan
March 17, 2005, 11:21 PM
I deal with several shops here in Las Vegas and none of them have any signs requiring that people disarm themselves. I like my steak Med Rare and my potatoes fried.

Promptcritical

That line of resoning means that there is no need for CVCW at all. I reject that idea out of hand. I have the right to defend myself nad am should not be dependant on the judgement / courage or lack thereof of the staff or police

Wingshooter
March 17, 2005, 11:28 PM
My local gun store doesn't require me to enter unarmed either.

chris in va
March 17, 2005, 11:30 PM
None of the gun stores in my area require you to disarm, but one outdoor range makes you leave the action open during cease fire. Provided it's in your holster, who cares?

M2 Carbine
March 17, 2005, 11:34 PM
I've never seen a gun shop that wants you to unload your carry gun.
But if I did that would be the last time I went there.

Of course you don't bring in a loaded gun that you are going to trade or have worked on.


Last year as I was walking up to the door of the local gun shop, the owner and manager were just inside of the door looking at a pistol. Just before I opened the door the manager put a round in the floor just inside the door.
I didn't expect such an interesting welcome. :D

SMLE
March 17, 2005, 11:41 PM
I may have put my foot in my mouth here. :o
But all the gun shops in Albuquerque that I regularly go to have signs asking that guns be unloaded before entering. There seems to a "don't ask, don't tell" policy about CCW though, and I do admit that I have seen no signs that expressly forbid it.

So whoever wants a steak just has to make it to Albuquerque and we'll have a cook out. :D

PromptCritical
March 17, 2005, 11:48 PM
That line of resoning means that there is no need for CVCW at all. I reject that idea out of hand. I have the right to defend myself nad am should not be dependant on the judgement / courage or lack thereof of the staff or police

Not in this instant. My argument made an assumption: Armed gun store employees. They are in the vicinity and armed. I would be satisfied with that. Outside of the store, 2A applies. (I have a CHL, not that I feel I need it to excercise my rights) Perhaps I make too many assumptions. I do, however, see wisdom in your argument. Perhaps I was hasty.

Either way, the store is well within their rights to post the sign, and you are well within your rights to not shop there.

taliv
March 18, 2005, 12:04 AM
SMLE, I understand what you're saying, but...

how is that different from Sarah Brady, HCI, MMM, etc saying for safety we should all be disarmed?

They have no way of knowing the competency level of everybody entering the store, so it's just plan good sense to have everybody clear their guns.

that's exactly the logic they use, no?

Ok, let's say the guy at the cash register was armed. (He wasn't, in this store. I checked. NO ONE was. although there may have been something under the counter, he wasn't AT the counter all the time)

It's not HIS responsibility to protect you.

That's pretty much the same argument we use, right?

MMM, HCI say we have police to protect us. We say, no they are not required to protect individuals, and they can't be everywhere.


Again, I understand that practically, you can expect people to be handling guns a lot more in gun stores, and ADs are a problem. My preference is a common-sense policy that simply says "if you carry concealed, keep it concealed. if you're bringing a firearm in to show/sell/get fixed, then action open, unload, etc."

SMLE
March 18, 2005, 12:43 AM
how is that different from Sarah Brady, HCI, MMM, etc saying for safety we should all be disarmed?Being asked to unload your gun is nowhere near being asked to give it up entirely. It's like unplugging an electrical appliance before working on it, or making sure the wheels on your car are chocked and the jack stands set before you crawl underneath it.

My preference is a common-sense policy that simply says "if you carry concealed, keep it concealed. if you're bringing a firearm in to show/sell/get fixed, then action open, unload, etc."That seems to be the basic policy at the stores here, and I agree completly. This goes back to the "concealed means concealed" paradigm. If you don't plan on handling it, leave it in your holster where it belongs. But if you're going to be handling it, clear it safely before you bring it in.

There is also a major aspect of "CYA" on the part of the store owner. If somebody gets shot by some clueless clod, and the nearly inevitable lawsuit follows, the owner can try to mitigate the situation by pointing out the sign. What would YOU do if you got plugged by an ND? And even if YOU wouldn't sue, what about the rest of your family in the event it was fatal?

And this just occured to me, what was the EXACT text of the sign? Did you happen to ASK the folks at the store if it applied to CCW? Or only to guns being brought for sale/trade/work? Did you verify that the store did not, in fact, have the common sense policy" that you mentioned?

I'm not trying to pick a fight, just trying to acertain all the facts.

Sir Aardvark
March 18, 2005, 12:49 AM
My local gun store does not care if you are packing.

Their "Rules" are:

1) Tell the person behind the counter that you are LEGALLY carrying when you walk in; this is done as a courtesy to them so that there are no "misunderstandings".

2) Don't take the darn thing out of your holster, for any reason, unless you are engaged with an employee, or, if the store is being robbed and you need to shoot some bad guy.

Standing Wolf
March 18, 2005, 01:08 AM
If you can show me a gun store that does NOT have a similar sign or policy, I'll buy you a steak dinner.

None of the gun shops I patronize in Colorado would dare ask customers to check their Second Amendment civil rights at the door: they'd be out of business in extremely short order.

I carry openly and/or concealed. Nobody's ever said a word, except to admire some of my openly carried guns.

Safety is safety is safety whether you're in a gun shop, a bank, a restaurant, or a deserted field.

gbelleh
March 18, 2005, 01:17 AM
Some of the shops I go to have signs saying something like:

No loaded guns in store (lawful CCW allowed).

taliv
March 18, 2005, 01:17 AM
SMLE, that may have been their intention, but the way it was posted made it illegal because they didn't specifically EXCLUDE people with permits.

I did ask about the sign and they explained why they'd put it up. (some recent AD at a nearby gun store) they didn't say anything about ccw being exempted.

SMLE
March 18, 2005, 01:25 AM
Taliv, Standing Wolf. I think we agree on how it OUGHT to be.

I'm as ardent a supporter of, and believer in, RKBA and armed self defense as anyone here, but I just don't see how being asked to clear your firearm is such a horrible violation of your rights. Frankly, I think you're just pole vaulting over mouse dung.

fjolnirsson
March 18, 2005, 02:23 AM
Both shops I used to use in CA (one in Bay Area and one in Sonoma County) had no signage about loaded weapons being forbidden.
Neither of the two shops I've visited here in Oregon have had such signs, either.

Just knock off the horns and wipe the cows butt, I'll take care of the rest.
Oh, and a baked potato with no sour cream, please.

Gordon Fink
March 18, 2005, 02:49 AM
The more privileges some folks get, the more they seem to complain. ;)

~G. Fink

nipprdog
March 18, 2005, 06:13 AM
got this from THR, I think.

:D

garyk/nm
March 18, 2005, 07:01 AM
SMLE,
Maybe it's a New Mexico thing. I have noticed the same signs in stores in other parts of the state as well. Always thought it was kind of odd.

GigaBuist
March 18, 2005, 09:29 AM
One local shop has had a 'CCW holders welcomed!' up since I've been going there.. which was right after MI went to shall issue.

The other shop I visit's only posted rule is that it remains in the holster unless you're at the firing line.

GRB
March 18, 2005, 10:23 AM
Heck, I live in NY and cannot think of a gun shop that makes people disarm before they enter. First of all, in nY I guess that would be illegal in some places, for instance NYC. If you have a permit you have a permit to carry not to leave it in your car. Certainly it would at least be a major liability. Imagine a dirt bad finding out that anyone going into a gun store must be unarmed. A few things could happen. If the bad guy wants to rob the store, he has only employees to worry about for the most part. Second, if he is without much courage as are most, then maybe he will hit the easier target, all the cars of people he saw go into the gun shop within the last five minutes. Heck, if he was watching he even knows where you stashed your gun. Now if he gets your gun out of your car who is at fault? First of all, you are for leaving it there but, some of the onus likely will fall on the gun shop owner (almost guaranteed in civil court).That is a plainly ridiculous requirement.

As far as what someone said about unloading at the range, I never unload my carry firearm at the range, only those that are meant to be fired while there. My carry piece stays on my hip (unless I am shooting it too but even then it does not get unloaded). Then again, no one is telling you not to enter with a firearm, and no one prevents you from ultimately loading it and firing it. So the analogy of the range to the prohibitive gun shop does not hold water.

I would have walked away from that gun shop, gone to another, bought all of my supplies there, gone to a Kinkos, made a photocopy of my receipt, then brought the photocopy back to the people in the 'no guns' gun store so they could see the business they lost by their rule which they obnoxiously posted next to a poster of the enemies of our rights. That sign next to the other was no funny coincidence. I find many gun store owners to be in it only for the buck and, not at all to help support our right to have firearms. I recently stopped using a guy who required me to show my creds to buy a certain caliber of pistol ammo. I have been shopping at his store for years, he knows I am a fed, yet he demands to see my creds when I buy 32 Auto because, according to him, it is a bad guy round. I can buy a case of 9mm from him without showing any ID, but noit 32 auto.

Not much by the way of customer relations. I found a friendlier source, that is also less expensive. Guess where I shop now. Think about that gun shop owner, he thinks and espouses that 32 auto is a bad guy round! What does that do to boost the craziness of the anti-gun nuts? What does that say about his knowledge or lack of knowledge aboiut bad guys and guns and ammo? What does that say about what he really thinks of his customers? I shop elsewhere now and, he can take the 32 Auto and sit on it.

The thing that gets me is that many of you here seem to put up with, or even support, stuff like this from gun shop owners. Sure htey can run their shops as they please, but if it would not please most of their customer base (and the customers let them know this) then you would see how quickly that rule would change. People have to let these shop owners know, in polite but certain terms that such is not acceptable. If they hear it enough, and if they see a dropoff in customers who return, they will change that kind of a rule.

All the best,
Glenn B

Chut1st
March 18, 2005, 01:32 PM
Just last night I was at a meeting at a local store/indoor range. No signs, no problems. I know for a fact that several folks in attendance were carrying since we discussed our selections and the fact that we wouldn't be going across the street for a beer to celebrate St. Paddy's Day.

If you can show me a gun store that does NOT have a similar sign or policy, I'll buy you a steak dinner.

Medium is fine with me, preferrably a large ribeye. Next time I'm passing through Albuquerque, I'll look you up.

I may have put my foot in my mouth here.

Takes a big person to admit it. Heck, I'll even bring a nice Cabernet go with dinner!

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