I want to order a CDNN Hi-Power, but I live in CA


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natedog
March 18, 2005, 12:35 AM
I want to order one of CDNN Investments FN 9mm Hi-Powers, but I unfortuanetly live in CA, and CDNN won't ship to CA. So, I thought I'd have my grandpa in Texas order it, take possession, and then when he comes out to visit, transfer it to us. What would we have to do to insure that this process is legal? Geting the CA handgun safety permit would be a first, right? Is there anyway to transfer the gun between family members without going through a dealer? Thanks.

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DMF
March 18, 2005, 12:46 AM
Is there anyway to transfer the gun between family members without going through a dealer? According to the FAQs on the ATF website, if he is a resident of TX and you are a resident of California, and it is a handgun, the answer is NO.

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#b1

Majic
March 18, 2005, 12:47 AM
Gramps should make the pistol a gift to you as what you are asking is called a straw purchase. As to the legalities of a transfer then one of the Kali members will have to help you, if it's even possible to import the pistol in your state.

natedog
March 18, 2005, 12:56 AM
Gramps purchasing the gun with his funds, then turning around and reselling it to us wouldn't be a straw purchase, right? I thought a straw purchase was buying a gun for someone who isn't legally eligible to do so by them giving you the money, you turn around, buy the gun, and give it to them.

50 Freak
March 18, 2005, 02:15 AM
First of all lets get something straight. A "straw" purchase is when a person buys a gun for someone else and gives/sells it to him to avoid the second person having to register it.

If the first person is buying a gun and then either gifting/selling the gun to the second person THROUGH AN FFL. Then it is not a "straw" purchase.

So your Gramps can buy the gun for you and then when he moves into Cali, then he can sell or give the the gun through the use of a FFL. Now if he is just visiting Cali and trys to give/sell the gun to you then it's a no no. Unless the gun is either a C&R or on the approved Handgun list.

wasrjoe
March 18, 2005, 02:20 AM
A "straw" purchase is when a person buys a gun for someone else and gives/sells it to him to avoid the second person having to register it.

We don't register our guns in Arizona.

If the first person is buying a gun and then either gifting/selling the gun to the second person THROUGH AN FFL. Then it is not a "straw" purchase.

Technically incorrect. Across state borders an FFL has to be involved, but one does not have to go through an FFL to give a firearm in many states, mine included.

natedog
March 18, 2005, 02:22 AM
It's on the approved list- could we just process this like an out of state transfer, as if I was buying it via Gunsamerica or Gunbroker? IE I send cash, he ships gun to my dealer, it sits there for 10 days, then I pick it up.

50 Freak
March 18, 2005, 03:56 AM
This guy's question was about a gun purchase in California. What I said is correct. It may not hold true in other states but in Cali, I'm pretty darn sure about what I'm saying.

thatguy
March 18, 2005, 09:55 AM
If the gun is approved for sale in CA just find one for sale and buy it. Do you HAVE to buy it from CDNN? The 10 round mag limit will still apply, though.

CA law bars importing unapproved guns for the purpose of selling. CA laws make allowances for gifts to and from parents and children but I don't know if grandparents are included.

natedog
March 18, 2005, 10:20 AM
I'd prefer to buy it from them; their cost is $400 for a NIB FN MKIII Hi-Power...the next cheapest price I've found is closer to $550 - $600.

Gunsnrovers
March 18, 2005, 10:38 AM
Your grandfather could buy it from CDNN and ship it to you via a FFL.

Of course, there will be FFL fees for him to receive the pistol from CDNN, shipping fees from him to you, and FFL fees and DROS on your end. But I'm pretty sure you could still wind up paying about $500 doing it that way.

.50 Freak, I'm almost 100% certain his grandfather could come to California with the pistol in person, he could give it to him (no 13 round magazines!) and he would have a short grace period to file and register the pistol. Of course the roundtrip airfare would most likely kill any savings.

Per the DOJ webpage, you have to submit an "Report of Operation of Law or Intra-Familial Handgun Transaction" and $19 fee to the DOJ within 30 days. The DOJ web page specifically mentions parent to child and husband/wife transfers, but I am pretty certain grandparent to grandchild (is that a word?) also qualifies. This is not necessary for long guns (voluntary registration only).

Though, from recent posts on the 1911Forum (before it closed for maintaince), it sounded like CDNN was out of 9mm's and this may be a moot point....

I haven't seen a NIB HP for under $689 here in Los Angeles. There is a shop with a slightly used on in Long Beach for $598, but he is only open on Saturdays so I haven't been able to run down there.

I haven't seen the FN marked pistols in almost a year.

SRYnidan
March 18, 2005, 10:45 AM
50 Freak

I am not a resident of CA (thank God) but I have been a FFL holder in my own right as well as worked for both retail and wholesale gun brokers. The "Staw" is a federal violation and has nothing to do with state gun redgistration. The are probably a lot of problems with this from CA's point of view but not this.

Kruzr
March 18, 2005, 11:14 AM
Kali DOJ allows the gift of a handgun from grandfather to grandson or father to son without going through an FFL provided it is a physical transfer....face to face. The grandson or son then has to file the Operation of Law form and send in the 19 bucks to register the gun. There will be no violation of California law if done this way.
Federal Law is a different story. You won't find an exception for a gift in Federal Law, only a bequeath. I asked this question of the ATF agents at the SHOT show in January. They said that if Calif. did not have a problem, then they don't but I've never seen it in writing anywhere and the Federal Law indicates the opposite.
That having been said, I know of a number of inter family transfers that have taken place in Calif. from out of state fathers who bring a gun when they visit to transfer. You may want to check with the ATF directly and see if you can get an answer you can be comfortable with.

From Calif DOJ website, FAQ:
5. Can I give a firearm to my adult child? Can he/she give it back to me later?
Yes, as long as the adult child receiving the firearm is not in a prohibited category and the firearm is a legal firearm to possess, the transfer of a firearm between a parent and child or a grandparent and grandchild is exempt from the dealer transfer requirement. However, if the firearm is a handgun, you must submit an Report of Operation of Law or Intra-Familial Handgun Transaction and $19 fee to the DOJ within 30 days. Assault weapons may not be transferred in this fashion. See Penal Code section 12285, subdivision (b).

(PC section 12076(c))



And yes, you still need a Handgun Safety Certificate to take possession from a parent or grandparent.

slzy
March 18, 2005, 11:25 AM
When are the people of California going to reclaim there rights?

El Rojo
March 18, 2005, 12:55 PM
When are the people of California going to reclaim there rights?When you learn how to spell their. Sorry, but you asked. :neener:

That makes sense to have grandpa buy it from CDNN and then have him ship it to your FFL and do the paperwork that way. However, you are adding on some serious costs. Now another good idea might be this gift idea. Have him pick it up and hold onto it until he comes back this way. Sure you won't have it for a while, but eventually you will get it. It also gives grandpa a reason to come out and visit.

Also, Nate aren't you under 21? Technically nothing can be in your name until you hit that mythical age where you are a more responsible adult. Only my Glock is in my name just for that very reason. I wanted handguns when I was 18-20.99 and my dad bought them for me. I never bothered filling out any paperwork though and I just retain them now. Heck they are even on my CCW permit and they aren't even in my name. Oh well. Probably illegal, but sometimes you gotta say, "Who cares!"

The real issue here is gun stores writing us off just because we are from the PRK. Doesn't that suck? I see their point of view, but darn it, if it is legal for us to have, why not just send it to us and take our money? How hard is it to look at the list and see it is ok? Again, they are a private business and they can do what they want, but it sure is frustrating.

SIOP
March 18, 2005, 02:11 PM
.50 Freak, I'm almost 100% certain his grandfather could come to California with the pistol in person, he could give it to him (no 13 round magazines!) and he would have a short grace period to file and register the pistol. Of course the roundtrip airfare would most likely kill any savings.

Nope. Then they both go to prison. It is a violation of the gun control act to transfer a handgun to a person that is not a resident of your state. FFL's can't even do it.

Dan

Bear Gulch
March 18, 2005, 02:20 PM
Move from Kali!

natedog
March 18, 2005, 02:30 PM
Move from Kali!

That's the plan. Just trying to get by on what we're allowed here till then.

Standing Wolf
March 18, 2005, 03:53 PM
When are the people of California going to reclaim there rights?

Shortly after the 37th of July.

Realistically speaking: it's not going to happen. The socialists and illegal aliens are in charge. They're both looter groups. They're both intent on squeezing as much out of the productive people as possible.

Atlas shrugged.

50 Freak
March 18, 2005, 08:33 PM
"Nope. Then they both go to prison. It is a violation of the gun control act to transfer a handgun to a person that is not a resident of your state. FFL's can't even do it."

I know your wrong on this. How is it then that people from Cali can buy guns from private individuals off of gunbroker and then have it mailed to their local FFL.

If the Gramps just gives him the gun without any registration of any type, then your arguement would have some merit.

In the state of California, all handgun transfers must be registered. Now if Gramps comes into Cali and they both go down to the local FFL and do the transfer. As long as the gun is on the approved list. Then it's all legit. Or if Gramps does give him the gun he then would have to file an Operation of Law form and send in the 19 bucks to register the gun. Then again it would be legal.

As for "transfer to a person that is not a resident" being illegal. That is incorrect. I have bought many guns this way and all have been registered via my FFL.

SIOP
March 18, 2005, 10:45 PM
I know your wrong on this. How is it then that people from Cali can buy guns from private individuals off of gunbroker and then have it mailed to their local FFL.

You just answered your own question. The firearm was first transferred to an FFL.

In the state of California, all handgun transfers must be registered. Now if Gramps comes into Cali and they both go down to the local FFL and do the transfer. As long as the gun is on the approved list. Then it's all legit.

Ditto. Deal went through an FFL.

Or if Gramps does give him the gun he then would have to file an Operation of Law form and send in the 19 bucks to register the gun. Then again it would be legal.

Nope. Jail for both of them. Gramps is a resident of another state, other guy knows it. Violation of the gun control act.

As for "transfer to a person that is not a resident" being illegal. That is incorrect. I have bought many guns this way and all have been registered via my FFL.

If you got a handgun from anyone not a resident of your state you both broke the law.

I would recommend that you visit the ATF web site and brush up on firearms laws before you end up in the slammer.

El Rojo
March 19, 2005, 02:27 PM
SIOP, your statements would be considered with greater weight if you could post a link or something that isn't just your paraphrase. So far we have PRK penal code that says the interfamily transfer is ok. It would be nice to have a link to federal law that says interfamily transfer is not ok if from out of state.

SIOP
March 19, 2005, 02:57 PM
Title 18 USC, Chapter 44, section 922(a)(3) and 922(a)(5).

What section of California firearms law do you claim permits it?

Dan

Gunsnrovers
March 19, 2005, 03:44 PM
As per the California DOJ web page, PC sections 12071, 12076(c), 12076(f), & 12078(i) are all pertinent.

Last paragraph outlines the part that I was under the impression makes this legal.

---------------

Sales, Loans, or Transfers of Firearms
It is unlawful for a person who is not a licensed firearms dealer pursuant to Penal Code section 12071, to sell, loan, or otherwise transfer a firearm to a non-licensed person unless the sale, loan, or transfer is completed through a licensed firearms dealer or law enforcement agency. (Penal Code §§ 12071, 12072, 12082, 12084.)


Exceptions

1) The dealer licensing and reporting requirements do not apply to the sale, lease, or transfer of any firearm in the following instances (Penal Code § 12078(u)):

• Firearms obtained by individuals through operation of law, such as:
- the executor or administrator of an estate;

- a trustee in a bankruptcy proceeding;
- an assignee for creditors;
- a receiver for an estate in receivership;
- a surviving spouse;
- a transfer of property between spouses.

NOTE: Concealable firearms obtained by any of the preceding means must be reported to the Department of Justice on forms provided by the Department of Justice. (Penal Code § 12078(i)(1).)

- a levying officer as defined in sections 481.140, 511.060, or 680.260 of the Code of Civil Procedure;
- firearms received by the family of a police officer or deputy sheriff from a local agency pursuant to section 50081 of the Government Code;
- the transfer of a firearm by a law enforcement agency to the person who found the firearm where the delivery is to the finder pursuant to Article 1 (commencing with section 2080) of Chapter 4 of Division 3 of the Civil Code;

• Firearms obtained through intestate succession or by bequest, sales or transfers between "immediate family" members. Immediate family means parent and child, and grandparent and grandchild. (NOTE: Individuals who receive a concealable firearm in this manner must obtain a Basic Firearms Safety Certificate for handguns received prior to January 1, 2003. A Handgun Safety Certificate is required for handguns received on and after January 1, 2003. The acquisition of a handgun in this manner must be reported within 30 days to the Department of Justice on forms provided by the Department of Justice.) (Penal Code §§ 12078(i)(1)(B), 12078(c)(2)(A).)

Librarian
March 19, 2005, 04:31 PM
Looks to me (IANAL) that SIOP has it right, due to 18 USC 922 (a)(5)
(a) It shall be unlawful—
(5) for any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) to transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the transferor resides; except that this paragraph shall not apply to
(A) the transfer, transportation, or delivery of a firearm made to carry out a bequest of a firearm to, or an acquisition by intestate succession of a firearm by, a person who is permitted to acquire or possess a firearm under the laws of the State of his residence, and
(B) the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes; California doesn't say, apparently leaving the interstate stuff to the Feds.

El Rojo
March 19, 2005, 04:57 PM
Thanks for posting the code. Right in the code it states,except that this paragraph shall not apply to
(A) the transfer, transportation, or delivery of a firearm made to carry out a bequest of a firearm to, or an acquisition by intestate succession of a firearm by, a person who is permitted to acquire or possess a firearm under the laws of the State of his residence,In other words 18 USC 922 (a)(5) gives an exemption if you are going to bequest a firearm to someone within the confines of state law. PRK law says you can do it and the Feds say you can too.

That is why it is helpful to go ahead and post the text of the law you are claiming says this or that, so we can look at it and know for sure. In this case, there was an exemption that SIOP was unaware of and Librarian just read right past.

Have gramps pick it up for you and hold onto it until he comes out again.

SIOP
March 19, 2005, 05:11 PM
That is why it is helpful to go ahead and post the text of the law you are claiming says this or that, so we can look at it and know for sure. In this case, there was an exemption that SIOP was unaware of and Librarian just read right past.

Have gramps pick it up for you and hold onto it until he comes out again.

Gramps would have to be in a coffin. You do realize that this part of the law is referring to acquiring a firearm from someone who has died, and that "intestate" means without a will, don't you???????

By the way, SIOP was well aware of it, but didn't mention it because he knew Gramps was still alive.

Gunsnrovers
March 19, 2005, 05:49 PM
SIOP is right. I had not seen the full Fed statute, but it's pretty clear.

The Feds allow bequest (an item left in a will) and intestate succession (where there is no will or where the particular item is not called out in the will).

The PRK penal code allows intestate succession or by bequest, AND sales or transfers between "immediate family" members. Immediate family means parent and child, and grandparent and grandchild.

The part after AND is the big difference between Fed and State law in this case. Bequest can be defined as a gift, but the strict legal defination is an item willed to you.

Bear Gulch
March 19, 2005, 06:28 PM
Seems like an awful lot of hoop jumping for a personto acquire a firearm. I would assume with the legal fees and other fufaraw SIOP would easily afford a trip to Texas to visit gramps and keep the gun THERE!

El Rojo
March 19, 2005, 06:51 PM
I am not a lawyer, but you sure make a good case for gramps having to be dead in order for it to go through by federal law. Thank you.

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