Anybody ever seen one of these?


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Outbacker
March 18, 2005, 03:43 PM
I had never seen a holster/shoulder stock like this for a pistol prior to seeing the below photo. I was wondering if this sort of configuration was commonly used at one time and what you guys might know about it. Are there stocks like this for other pistols, etc...?

http://world.guns.ru/handguns/browning_hp_4.jpg
PHOTO CAPTION: Browning High Power, made by Inglis, but with tangent adjustable rear sights and attached holster/shoulder stock.

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cola8d8
March 18, 2005, 03:56 PM
I dont know anything about the firearm in the picture but now that would be considered a short barel rifle and would have to be registered with ATF as such to be legal in the US.

280PLUS
March 18, 2005, 03:56 PM
:confused:

Outbacker
March 18, 2005, 04:00 PM
280,

You can see the photo here:

http://world.guns.ru/handguns/browning_hp_4.jpg

BHPshooter
March 18, 2005, 04:01 PM
Yeah, I've seen them (even though I can't see a picture ;) ). They were a pretty popular concept in Europe around WWI/WWII, but there really isn't a whole lot of demand for such a thing now.

This kind of setup was used on a few of J.M. Browning's FN designs, as well as on some variants of the C96 Mauser Broomhandle.

Wes

Outbacker
March 18, 2005, 04:09 PM
I dont know anything about the firearm in the picture but now that would be considered a short barel rifle and would have to be registered with ATF as such to be legal in the US.
I hadn't even thought of that. Good point! I was curious what something like that we be like to shoot. I guess it would probably handle similarly to some short-barreled tactical 9mm rifles in some ways, but that trigger location would take some getting used to.

Morgan
March 18, 2005, 04:21 PM
HK's original VP70 had a shoulder stock that doubled as a holster. When attached it allowed burst fire :) . Pretty cool, no?

I've seen shoulder stocks for 1911's, Mausers, and Lugers, too.

444
March 18, 2005, 04:30 PM
"I dont know anything about the firearm in the picture but now that would be considered a short barel rifle and would have to be registered with ATF as such to be legal in the US. "

I don't believe this is true. I recently looked into this subject.
Right this moment, I don't feel like looking it up, but as I understand it, if the handgun in question is something like a military handgun (Luger, Broomhandle Mauser etc) that was originally issued with a shouder stock: this is OK. However, if you wanted to do something like mount a stock on a Glock, it would be an SBR.

cola8d8
March 18, 2005, 05:12 PM
444,
Are you sure you are not thinking about the difference between a short barreled shotgun and a AOW? A shotgun with a short barrel can be a AOW ($5 tax vs $200) if it never had a stock on it... I believe... Maybe someone that deals more in C3 stuff will chime in.

Vern Humphrey
March 18, 2005, 05:20 PM
Inglis made the Browning Hi-Power in a model with a slot for a shoulder stock, and also with a long range tangent rear sight. Many of these guns went to the Nationalist Chinese and many were captured by the Communist Chinese. I encountered one in the hands of a North Vietnamese Army lieutenant in Long Kanh Province in 1967. The barrel was rusted out from corrosive ammo, and the &^%$ in Intelligence wouldn't give me a release to bring it home. :cuss:

This particular gun was in a Canadian web holster, with spare magazine and cleaning rod. But they were also issued with a leather holster attached to a wooden shoulder stock.

During the '30s, pistols with shoulder stocks were unfortunately advertized as "pocket machineguns" and so came to be included in the National Firearms Act. Nowadays, I believe, they are considered curios and relics, and there is a $5 transfer fee on them.

Outbacker
March 18, 2005, 05:23 PM
Vern,

Ya gotta love this place. I posted just this afternoon asking about an obscure item, and I get a great post from a guy who actually encountered the thing in action.

Thanks!

Vern Humphrey
March 18, 2005, 05:28 PM
Yeah, and some &^%$ from MACV intelligence has my Browning. I just hope he never figured out you can get drop-in replacement barrels for them. :fire:

bean357
March 18, 2005, 05:46 PM
hmm. I'm only getting a blank screen with your link to the photo :confused:

Rico567
March 18, 2005, 06:23 PM
Absent a photo, I'm assuming that what is being described is just one of the number of regular pistols that have been fitted with the proper attachment points, etc., to secure a shoulder stock. The earliest examples of these I've seen are in the Ath├Žneum in Hartford, CT, in the selection of Colt's firearms they had on display. If you prefer the movie version, check out the shoulder-stocked Colt used by Col. Douglas Mortimer (played by Lee Van Cleef) in For a Few Dollars More. Movie or not, I think the Colt is basically authentic. I've always been dubious about the utility of such an arrangement, but the ones where the stock doubles as the holster is pretty neat.

280PLUS
March 18, 2005, 06:40 PM
Yes, Only in "A Few Dollars More" but it wasn't Van Cleef carrying it, it was one of his cronies. The young blonde guy that fell through the trap door in the bell tower. The one that was always snarling at Clint. I don't recall seeing any examples at the Atheneum's Colt exhibit but that doesn't mean anything. They should be getting around to doing another one soon I would think. I'ts been a while now. Don't miss it if they do!

Wildalaska
March 18, 2005, 07:02 PM
Original shoulder stocked Broomies, Lugers and Inglis HPs are exempt from the NFA

WildjustanasideAlaska

Jim K
March 18, 2005, 11:48 PM
Correct. As a general rule, shoulder stocked pistols are considered to be "short barrelled rifles" and must be registered under the National Firearms Act. But BATFE, under the regulatory authority granted by Congress has specifically exempted certain stocked pistols as being collectors items and not likely to be used in crime from the registration and transfer tax requirement. These include Luger carbines and artillery models with the original stocks, Mauser C96 with original stock, Canadian Inglis BHP's with original Canadian stock, Belgian BHP's with original stock, and a few others.

For those interested in more detail, see the BATFE web site www.atf.gov.

As to shootability, shoulder stocked pistols are rather over-rated. I have owned and/or used several and never liked them. When the barrel is short, like the BHP or Model 1911 (for which stocks have been sold on the civilian market), the muzzle blast and noise are very bad, even with ear muffs. The C96 and Luger carbines are somewhat better, since the longer stock and barrel put the muzzle further from the shooter's face. Still, they make rather awkward rifles and, while some countries used them to arm artillerymen and the like (and police), they were rarely used and never popular.

Jim

Outbacker
March 19, 2005, 12:49 AM
Thanks to everyone for the great info.

flatdog
March 19, 2005, 01:14 AM
Lee Van Cleef did carry the shoulder stocked Colt in "For A Few Dollars More".

Lamar was the snot nosed bad guy in "Joe Kidd" who carried a shoulder stock Broomhandle Mauser.

flatdog

Sunray
March 19, 2005, 01:19 AM
Yep and they're horrendously expensive and difficult to find now. The stocks I mean.

cracked butt
March 19, 2005, 02:29 AM
Yep, I've seen a very old colt 1911 that has a shoulder stock- the stock is very flat and short and sort of slides onto a fitting on the mainspring housing.

280PLUS
March 19, 2005, 07:24 AM
"Lee Van Cleef did carry the shoulder stocked Colt in "For A Few Dollars More".

Lamar was the snot nosed bad guy in "Joe Kidd" who carried a shoulder stock Broomhandle Mauser."

Right right,,,I was having an episode of cranial flatulance...

:rolleyes:

ACP230
March 19, 2005, 08:19 AM
I fired a shoulder stocked "Schnellfeur," full auto Mauser Broomhandle many years ago.
It was a legally registered MG, and the owner let me shoot a 20 round mag from it.
The stock was the wrong size for me, (too short, I think). I had to move my head around to see the sights. I fired three and four round bursts and was a bit surprised at the amount of recoil generated by the .30 Mauser in FA.
The 20 round mag was gone too soon and I've never had another chance to shoot a FA Broomhandle.

Shoulder stocks are available and legal for black powder pistols.

flatdog
March 19, 2005, 01:25 PM
280PLUS said. "Right right,,,I was having an episode of cranial flatulance..."

I've had a bout with that a time or two myself. My wife looked me square in the eyes and calm as you please asked.

"Are you still depending on your memory?" :rolleyes:

Black Snowman
March 19, 2005, 02:02 PM
As mentioned, as far as legality goes, there are several examples of the stock/holster handguns that appear on the C&R list as exempt from the tax tag requirement and are detailed in the publications I received with my 03 FFL. So, the answer is a resounding "it depends" ;)

Many handguns in Europe are/were seen as similar to carbines here in the states. A handy gun still capable of taking some long shots if necessary. Some of the Hi Powers were equipped with tangent sights for out to 600 meters. Pretty ambitious for a 9mm.

Carl N. Brown
May 19, 2005, 09:52 AM
I sent a query to the ATF Firearms and Technology branch on
the legality of having a 1896 Mauser broomhandle with shoulder
stock. Their reply was, if it is an original Mauser made receiver
either an original shoulder-stock holster or a replica stock is legal.

However, I could not own a shoulder stock for my original Mauser
if I also owned a Chinese rebuild on a new receiver, since the
receiver counted as a new gun, not a curio or relic.

So I own an original Mauser with a repro stock, and keep a copy of
the ATF letter in the case with the gun if any questions arise.

A new pistol, current production, not on the ATF Curios and Relics
list with shoulder stock is technically a SBR, short barrelled rifle,
NOT an AOW, any other weapon, NFA category.

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