LOOK my dad just gave me two old Savage rifles... PICS


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Hellbore
March 19, 2005, 03:51 AM
My dad is in his sixties and is giving me his guns now. Here they are, he says I can have them:

The rifle on top is a Savage model 3B .22LR that belonged to his father (my grandfather) who became sick and died when my father was about 3 years old. My father never knew him and no one ever talked about him. This gun is the only remnant I have of my mysterious grandfather. Neither I nor my father knows much of anything about this man. My grandfather's initials are on the stock. The front tip of the wood was painted blue because, according to my father, it was "cool" or something back then.

The bottom rifle is a Savage model 99 in 300 Savage that my father bought when he was a young man to hunt deer with and it served him well over many years. I am not sure what year it was manufactured in.

The pistol is one that my dad and his uncle made together when he was a boy. His uncle helped him with the brazing. It was made from an old .22LR rifle whose stock broke and was no good.



Anyways I just thought I'd share.

He also gave me an old bolt-action shotgun, a "Gamester" model 348, the brand is Harrington and Richardson I think, and a newer Browning lever action .22lr rifle.

What can you tell me about these guns? Also, can anyone tell what the donor gun was for the home-brewed pistol?

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homeka45
March 19, 2005, 05:06 AM
Thanks Dad. That model 99 is one good looking rifle.

Outbacker
March 19, 2005, 06:07 AM
That has to be one of the most unique an interesting pistols I've ever seen. I inherited a Savage 311 shotgun from my Dad. I shoot trap with it and will keep it forever.

Thanks for sharing! :)

444
March 19, 2005, 10:36 AM
I think you got some cool stuff there.
That pistol is a real conversation piece.
Two friends of mine own a Savage Model 99 in .300 Savage and they both consider them one of their most prized possessions. Both have taken a number of deer with them, but both frequently tell about how many deer their grandfathers took with them.

El Tejon
March 19, 2005, 10:58 AM
HEY! That Savage .22 is the rifle I used as a boy (started at 5)!

The Savage 99 was ahead of its time, truly an outstanding weapon.

Memories la da da la dee dah . . . :D

Larry Ashcraft
March 19, 2005, 11:28 AM
300 Savage is a very versatile caliber, and the Model 99 is an outstanding design.

I'm selling an old Savage 1899 (older but same design) today, but mine is in .303 Savage, an obsolete and not nearly as powerful cartridge as the 300.

If you give us a serial number range, we can tell you when your 99 was made.

jefnvk
March 19, 2005, 11:49 AM
I like that 99. Ever since I shot my friends, I have this urge to buy one.

EVIL5LITER
March 19, 2005, 12:23 PM
I haven't found a single person yet that hasn't raved about a Savage 99. Are they really that good?

What can a person expect to pay for a used one?

Onmilo
March 19, 2005, 12:27 PM
Yes, the older ones are really that good.

P95Carry
March 19, 2005, 12:32 PM
Wonderful!! Heritage continues down the line - I like it :)

That 99 - oh my - you are very lucky to have that ... a superb rifle. I have a much newer one (99C in .243) but often wish I had in fact got one of those older models - they were something else.

The .22 is no doubt a great and versatile rifle and the pistol - well - ingenuity thrives and lives!

El Tejon
March 19, 2005, 12:37 PM
EVIL, the Savage 99 was such a fine weapon that even Jeff Cooper likes it. :D And he can find fault with everything. :uhoh:

Vern Humphrey
March 19, 2005, 12:39 PM
My dad, who was in the exploration end of the oil business, loved the 99 Savage, especially in .250-3000. He killed a tiger in Sumatra in the '30s, and hordes of game in Ethopia in the '40s, from a chetah to a kudu good enough for Roland Ward. In between, he killed deer, jaguar and other game in North and South America.

Mike Hull
March 19, 2005, 01:21 PM
Very nice. One problem though. If that pistol was made from a rifle, LOSE IT!!!
It would be considered a sawed off rifle by the BATF, and you could get into horrific trouble if caught with it, even though you might be unaware of the legalities. :uhoh:

Preacherman
March 19, 2005, 01:45 PM
Mike beat me to it. If that pistol was converted from a rifle, it's illegal... might be best to either fully deactivate it (so that it can't be reactivated) or lose it.

mete
March 19, 2005, 02:04 PM
There might be a grandfather clause on the pistol if it was done years ago, do some research....The 99 has been a very popular gun in the N.E. and the 300 Savage cartridge is like a light 308, much better than the 30-30. The rifle was designed for military use , though never adopted, but was always very popular with hunters .It is one of the few old guns , that with modern steels, could easily handle the 308 type modern high pressure cartridges.

wally
March 19, 2005, 03:03 PM
Yes since there is sentimental value to the pistol do some research. Pre NFA in 1934 there was no distinction amoung pistols, rifles, or machine guns. If done before this, you could still be in for a hassle, but you should prevail.

OTOH you can still register AOW -- short barreled rifles for a $200 tax and a bunch of paper work to the BATF.

I am not a Philadeliphia gun lawer, so be cardful out there!

--wally.

Outbacker
March 19, 2005, 11:58 PM
I like that 99. Ever since I shot my friends, I have this urge to buy one.

Jefnvk,

Did you shoot ALL of your friends, or just some of them, before you got the urge to go shopping. :eek:

I couldn't resist. It's amazing what one dropped apostrophe will do to a sentence, 'aint it? :p

WhiteKnight
March 20, 2005, 12:07 AM
That pistol is just plain awesome.

phantomak47
March 20, 2005, 12:18 AM
Hey everyone, I have an old savage 99 and I was wondering if anyone could tell me when it was made? Thanks

The serial is 618576

litman252
March 20, 2005, 09:27 AM
10 seconds on google.

http://www.savage99.com/


Tony

Cosmoline
March 20, 2005, 06:32 PM
The pistol is awesome, but poses problems not just as a cut-down "rifle," but as a so-called "zip gun"--a home-made firearm made by someone without a license to make firearms. You might have grandfather rights, but IIRC you still have to get approval from the BATF for these. I'd ask them about it. I'd hate to see it get deep six'd since it's a real museum piece. 99% of these old home made pistols are gone forever, though they used to be quite common. I love the card symbols on the side. I think we can all agree that piece rises from the ranks of Bubba to genuine folk art.

Selfdfenz
March 21, 2005, 04:32 AM
I thought AOW was $5.

Given the family history of the pistol I for sure would deactivate it (if it came to that) as opposed to destroying it.

J-

wally
March 21, 2005, 10:24 AM
I thought AOW was $5

It might be for some classes of AOW, cane guns, pen guns, etc. if I recall correctly. If it was only $5 for rifles I suspect many of those AMD65 and Krinkov kits would be made US compliant without the barrel extesions.

From the BATF FAQ:
(M3) What is the tax on making an NFA firearm?

The tax is $200 for making any NFA firearm, including "any other weapon."

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#m16


If I'm wrong, it'd be great to know as I'd gladly spend $5 to register and get a 10" barrel for my Uzi carbine -- can't see spending $200 to do it, but if it was only $5 I'd go for it!

--wally.

fslflint
March 21, 2005, 12:32 PM
I'f my eyes don't decieve me that pistol was made from a winchester model 67, which was only manufactured from 34' to 63' (somewhere between 380,000 and 400,000 were produced). note, all were pre-64 thus no serial numbers

El Rojo
March 21, 2005, 12:33 PM
Don't show the pistol off to your BATFE friends, don't transport it around in your vehicle, and don't do any other illegal activity that draws attention to yourself and gives them a reason for using that as their sole means to put you away. I wouldn't worry about it too much. That is just me. It is a very interesting pistol.

Hellbore
March 21, 2005, 02:07 PM
How can I deactivate it?

Stupid laws.... Why in the hell is a relic like this illegal? That is extremely ridiculous if you ask me. I am allowed to have a Mossberg Ulti-Mag with 3.5" shells that can blow a huge hole in someone, but I'm not allowed to have a little pop gun my dad made from a junker?

Selfdfenz
March 21, 2005, 03:26 PM
If my Dad made it during his childhood there is no way I would part with the thing.

If you can go AOW for $5 like the short barrelled shotguns I sure don't see why that unit can't be too. Then you could take it out and shoot if the mood ever struck.

Very neat piece. Much like kids would make.

S-

Hellbore
March 21, 2005, 04:22 PM
Yeah my dad was probably about 12 years old when he made this.

He saved up his pennies and bought his first shotgun, a Harrington and Richardson Gamester model 384 or 834 or something like that, when he was 14 years old! I guess the law was quite different then.

mbs357
March 21, 2005, 05:51 PM
A bolt action pistol?
That is awesome.

Mike Hull
March 21, 2005, 11:06 PM
If my Dad made it during his childhood there is no way I would part with the thing.

If he gets caught with that sawed off rifle(that's how it's classified), it's a federal crime, and they don't have misdemeanors. Everything is a felony with those folks.
He could easily get 10 years in a federal penitentiary(think of bubba, and the tossed salad man!!), a several thousand dollar fine, lose his home, or vehicle, whichever they might find it in. Is it really worth that risk?
Even if some attorney can get the prison sentence suspended, and get you probation only, you will still have the felony conviction. No more guns, won't even be able to vote, plus you'll owe maybe up to $100grand in attorney fees.

Very neat piece. Much like kids would make.

That's one of the reasons the law was passed to begin with. Kids and sawed off rifles, or zip guns made from car antenna's etc.

kaferhaus
March 22, 2005, 03:41 PM
a home-made firearm made by someone without a license to make firearms.

You don't need a license to make firearms for your own use.

However,... if this is indeed a short barreled rifle (was cut down... which it obviously was) it's a 10yr gig in the federal pen.... you could likely get amnesty with it if you applied for the stamp.. or if you can prove that it's been like that since before the GCA....

Hellbore
March 22, 2005, 03:43 PM
What stamp are we talking about here? Where can I read more about this? You guys all seem to know about this stuff but I don't.

Who can I talk to about this besides the police? I don't want to talk to them because they may just arrest me if I tell them what is up.

g56
March 22, 2005, 04:13 PM
Since it's illegal to even possess that pistol, I would highly recommend you redo your photos to exclude the pistol, you have published photo's on a public forum, not a good idea.

The best thing to do is to destroy it, if you wish to figure out some legal way of keeping it, I would suggest you render it inoperable, remove the bolt and store it separately from the pistol, store it in a secure manner, then you can start inquiries regarding what you might need to do to keep it legally.

When you have done that, contact BATF, tell them the story behind it, that you have rendered it inoperable, and want to know if they have a method to legally keep it, since you are contacting them voluntarily you shouldn't have any problems, you might want to consult an attorney about this. BTW, if an agent says it's OK to keep, get it in writing.

Werewolf
March 22, 2005, 04:22 PM
IANAL nor do I play one on TV but:

That rifle stopped being a rifle as soon as the original stock was discarded and a pistol grip added. It is now a handgun no different from a bolt action T/C Contender and you don't have to pay a NFA tax on those.

It may be germane that the action at one time was in a rifle but I seriously doubt it. Of course only an attorney familiar with the actual numerous BATFE regs as well as Federal and State gun laws would know for sure. Good luck finding one.

Personally - if I'd inherited something like that and was really concerned about the legalities I'd just call the local BATF guy, be upfront with him, tell him you inherited the thing and what did you need to do about it to pay the tax if one is required.

Gewehr98
March 22, 2005, 07:13 PM
Note: I'm not a lawyer, but I am indeed a current FFL holder. And that was bad advice:

That rifle stopped being a rifle as soon as the original stock was discarded and a pistol grip added. It is now a handgun no different from a bolt action T/C Contender and you don't have to pay a NFA tax on those.

Wrong. That rifle remains a rifle, because it started life as a rifle. It's now a NFA short-barreled rifle, at best, and a pistol, at worst.

And that's no different than if you were to take an off-the-shelf Remington Model 7 and lop the barrel off, then install an XP-100 stock. It's all good because it fits and works, right? Nope. You've just commited a felony. The difference between a Remington XP-100 bolt action pistol and a Remington Model 7 rifle is how the receiver was logged in the record book as it left the factory. If it left the factory serialed as an XP-100 bolt-action pistol, then it's ok to be configured as either a pistol or rifle. But if it left the factory serialed as a Model 7 rifle, then it must remain a rifle. To shorten the barrel, it needs proper NFA paperwork and approval.

Thompson/Center doesn't have a bolt-action Contender pistol, btw. Break-action, yes.

It may be germane that the action at one time was in a rifle but I seriously doubt it.

It's more plausible that the gun started as a bolt-action rifle than a bolt-action rimfire pistol, historically speaking. A little judicious digging through Fjestad's Blue Book and the Gun Trader series will show how many bolt-action rimfire pistols have been on the market over the ages. The conversion doesn't particularly look like a conversion from a pistol to a pistol, either, does it?

Personally - if I'd inherited something like that and was really concerned about the legalities I'd just call the local BATF guy, be upfront with him, tell him you inherited the thing and what did you need to do about it to pay the tax if one is required.

Bringing the pistol to the ATF's attention will more than likely result in forfeiture of the gun for destruction. Amnesty and deactivation may not be an option these days. That's a sad commentary on affairs here in 2005. Prior to 1934, assembling such a firearm from a donor rifle wasn't a big deal. Nowadays, I'd be afraid to even post a picture of it on the Internet. :(

Dave Markowitz
March 22, 2005, 08:05 PM
That rifle stopped being a rifle as soon as the original stock was discarded and a pistol grip added. It is now a handgun no different from a bolt action T/C Contender and you don't have to pay a NFA tax on those.

I am a lawyer and you are wrong. Please do not post bad legal opinions that might cause someone to get in trouble.

Even if you take a rifle out of it's stock and toss it into the trash, it's still a rifle under the law. The receiver is the gun as far as the law is concerned.

Hellbore should consult a local attorney familiar with the NFA and see if it's possible to legal register the piece as a short barrelled rifle.

Hellbore
March 22, 2005, 09:50 PM
Bad news folks. I showed my dad this thread a while back so he could see comments on how you guys liked his guns. Unfortunately he checked back and saw all your comments on how that pistol was illegal. He panicked and melted it down to slag with his oxy-acetylene torch. R.I.P. a piece of folk art. I was pretty mad when I found out but what can you do? Thanks, makers of idiotic gun control laws. I took the pics down too.

homeka45
March 22, 2005, 10:25 PM
Too bad about the pistol/rifle, well anyway your dad sounds like a take charge kind of guy.

Outbacker
March 22, 2005, 10:28 PM
Chalk another one up for the armchair attorneys.

Great job, guys. :fire:

Maybe next time we can all get together and torch the Liberty Bell because, if we don't, somebody might break a fingernail on it.

Hellbore
March 22, 2005, 10:53 PM
your dad sounds like a take charge kind of guy.

Well he says "it's just stuff, people are more important"... He is a paranoid person though, if you read my previous post a while back about some of the things he is paranoid over, you would know... The threat of getting in trouble with the feds over an illegal gun just about gave him a heart attack!

Third_Rail
March 23, 2005, 12:01 AM
Aw, put the pictures back. If it's destroyed, no harm done. I'd love to save a copy as an example of a neat old pistol.

Hellbore
March 23, 2005, 12:53 AM
My dad won't let me put the pics back, he thinks you guys are going to report him... I told him "what are they gonna do, the gun is gone now" but he is afraid he will get in trouble after the fact. In fact, I am in hot water now with my Dad, he is mad at me for posting the pictures in the first place. He says he might not give me his Savage 99 after all :O I think he will change his mind after he calms down a little.

El Rojo
March 23, 2005, 12:58 PM
Sometimes I wonder who is worse, the feds or our very own THR members. I am not happy with the "I am just trying to keep you out of prison here is all of my legal mumbo jumbo you better be scared" crowd right now. His dad is right, it is just an old gun and not worth prison or anything really for that matter, but still, your cries of hysteria put this kid in trouble and can you blame the dad? All this talk of prison and BATFE busting down the door and on and on and on. A simple "hey that might not be legal, keep it stashed or PM me and I can tell you the best way to contact the BATFE and see about making it legal" would be just fine.

Long live the firearms enforcement division of THR. They destroy more guns than my two senators combined. :fire:

Mike Hull
March 23, 2005, 10:01 PM
No cries of hysteria. I've had personal experience with exactly this type of thing. I was given an old rifle when I was 16 years old, by a neighbor. He had run over the barrel backing up once, and bent it. He was an old guy and didn't think anything of cutting it off right in front of the forestock, and right behind the pistol grip. It was just an old bolt action SS .22.

Anyway, I removed the bolt, tossed it on the floorboard in the rear seat area, and took it over to show a friend.
I got pulled over on the way, and the officer seeing it asked if he could handle it. I said sure and opened the door for him to get it. He looked at it, asked me if I knew where the police dept was, and said he'd follow me down there(this was 1959-60). Once there, they impounded my car, called the feds, and started questioning me as to why I made a sawed off rifle.

In the end, the only thing that got me released without felony(or any other) charges filed, or it being turned over to the feds was my brother was a cop on that dept.
They did keep my car though, and let me go into my brothers custody for a ride home.

They did call later telling me they didn't want the pos car, and to come and get it, then they gave me a ticket for smog pollution, remember this was 1959-60.

I was lucky. Do you want the thread starter to get worse treatment? The cops are way less lenient now, than then, and there are tougher federal laws. :rolleyes:

Sulaco
July 10, 2005, 11:32 PM
No wonder we have to fight for our guns so hard. With people like I see posting here, it's a wonder we have any rights left at all.

GunGoBoom
July 11, 2005, 02:09 AM
Well can you put the pic back up of the one that *wasn't* an un-registered SBR?

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