[MikeJ]

I'm sure that this has been asked before but I can't a definitive post on it.
As a home defense round which do you consider to be the better round and why? I currently use the .38+P 125 grain Gold Dot but am considering going to a .44 Special.

[MICHAEL T]

44 special if for no other reason bigger hole. .

[MikeJ]

That's what I am beginning to think.

[ARGarrison]

The .44 Special is a good round, but is currently out of the loop with any good premiem comercial JHP rounds readly available. I think Hornady does (or at least did) make a XTP round in .44 Spl and Winchesters makes a Silvertip load. The .44 spl will give you a bigger bullet not only in diameter, but also wirght, ussaully around 200grs.

[Bacon]

Due to living in a populated area I went with the .44 Special (instead of the magnum). Have found it to be a good controllable round with plenty of power at close range. It's also good for handloading.

Steve

[GaryP]

The .44 Spl is my choice. Georgia Arms markets a 200 gr Gold Dot JHP at 850 fps and Mag-Safe offers a 94 gr SWAT load at 1500 fps(3" bbl) for home defense and a 92 gr Max Performance + Defense load at 1620 fps (3" bbl). Winchester 200 gr SilverTip seems to be available just about any place that sells ammo.

For home defense the MagSafe SWAT load was designed specifically for Home Defense and will not penetrate sheet rock walls.


:evil:

[munk]

44 Special will do better than a 38 Plus P. (as I recently learned, real plus P ammo is hard to find for the 38,)




munk

[Bear Gulch]

There was a reason Elmer was building on this round. Greater size and mass tend to provide better energy transfer and bone crushing impact. A 44 to the pelvis will stop just about any critter. This makes it easier to put several mor through its chest and head. :D

[BluesBear]

I can think of six really good reasons to prefer the .44 Special.

180gr Hornady JXP
200gr CCI Blazer JHP
200gr Winchester Silvertip
200gr Speer Gold Dot JHP
200gr Federal Lead SWC-HP
240gr Miwall Lead SWC

All of them will eat out the 9 ring of a B27-E target at 25 feet from my 2" Taurus and not pound me in doing so.

[Gordon]

I'd switch the the .38 spl to 158grain Leadsemiwadcutterhollowpoint +p.
Then it would be close to a 180-200 grain .44spl factory load in effectiveness.
Ain't no .38 (or .357) equal to a .44 spl handload in a heavy frame gun!

[BluesBear]

Then it would be close to a 180-200 grain .44spl factory load in effectiveness. :scrutiny:

In my household I have the option of carrying either a 2" Taurus .357 or a 2" Taurus .44 Special. Right now I am unable to reload so factory ammo is my only option.
Guess which one rides on my hip.

[thatguy]

I don't believe that I want to be shot with either and I wouldn't feel uncomfortable carrying either. Caliber choice is mostly determined by what platform you want. A 44 will have to be a bigger, heavier gun than the 38. Is this what you want?

[Stainz]

The Speer #4427 bullet is a 200gr GDJHP designed for 800-1,000 fps. In fact, it opens at the lessor speed, which it eclipses in either of the two very similar behaving commercial loads containing it, the CCI Blazers ($16.99/50 locally) and the Georgia Arms ($19/50) new Starline-brass variant, when fired from my 2.5" 296 .44 Special 5-shooter. That combo is on my side of the bed - and my CCW. I have a 2" 10 and 3" 65, both stoked with Remington R38S12 158gr LHPSWC +P's (~$18/50 via a local dealer - ordered, not stocked, sadly!) elsewhere - and for my wife. The old 'FBI' load .38 Spcl +P is a small mount lighter in the recoil - and was, of course, designed for short barrels.

Stainz

[Bronco45]

Have to go along with those talking about the Gold Dot 44 Spls. They are designed to peel like an onion at 800fps+ and they are veerry effective in short bbl 44 Spls. The Blazer is priced right and are accurate and effective.

[obiwan1]

I like the .44 for a house gun. I have two of them. If you chose to carry them, the problem is spare ammo. I've only seen one ammo pouch for the .44. I think it's made by DeSantis. It still only gives an additional 5 or 6 rounds. That's one reason why I carry autos and leave the .44s to home protection duties. (the other reason is that it's a job requirement to carry a certain make/cal auto on or off duty)

[Mikul]

Corbon and ProLoad both make a .44 special self-defense round.

[MikeJ]

Thanks for the responses. I think I will bring out my .44 mag Ruger Redhawk and load it up with the 200 grain Gold Dot .44 Specials.

[Quantrill]

.44 spec.

[chaim]

If you have it you may as well go with bigger and more powerful. The .44spl is more powerful than the .38spl+P. Nothing wrong with the .38 at all, but for HD you don't have size considerations like you do with carry. Is it any harder to have your big .44spl or .44mag in the nightstand than it is to put the .38 or .357 there? For carry there are other trade offs, but for home defense things are different. The only exception is magnum v. non-magnum- there blast and flash are considerations and one may want to go less powerful (though, its a big shock but, people have different opinions on this) but in two low pressure rounds go with the bigger one (all else being equal).

In my case my HD guns are mostly full-size guns. Charles Daly 1911 or 15 rounds of 9mm in my CZ 75 when I use an auto (I never use my little Bersa). A medium frame revolver is always loaded up as well, though my one exception is that I do always keep my little Taurus 85CH loaded up too (I can discretely put it in a pocket or quickly slip it IWB if I want to more discretely check something out or answer the door without alarming the neighborhood).

[Stainz]

For those interested in the physics, from my measures, a Blazer/GA Arms 200gr GDJHP exits my 2.5" 296 at 804fps, yielding 286.5 ft-lb. The Remington R38S12 158gr LHPSWC +P hits 834 fps exiting my 2" 10, yielding 243.5 ft-lb. Use my 3" 65, and those LHPSWC's hit a measured 912 fps, yielding 291.2 ft-lb - more than my beloved 200gr Gold Dots in my 296! Of course, I'll keep carrying the 296... I am partial to 'big bores', so much so, that I am often referred to as a 'big bore'. Go figure.

One sad note re the Blazer 200gr GD .44 Specials - I had one split it's case in my SS 696 last year. That likely would have damaged my Ti-cylindered 296. I have shot 10k total of 9mm, .44, .45 ACP, & .45 Colt Blazers without a problem - until that split. I switched to GA Arms loads of that same bullet, as they use new Starline brass - and I reload everything but my CC rounds. Besides, my local 'Academy Sports/Outdoors' chain had increased those Blazers from $12.99 to $16.99/50, while the 115gr TMJ 9mm's still run $3.88/50. BTW, I sold my wife's CZ-75 over a year ago... those Blazers chrono-ed ~1,100 fps from that CZ - too fast for an 'in the house' PD round, IMHO. Besides, her marksmanship with the 3" 65 is far better - and, she doesn't empty it as fast! Another revolver convert...

Stainz

[Bacon]

Stainz, thank you for the info. I've never douted the .357 Mag & you have confirmed my belief. The problem has always been over-penetration. That's why many of us keep a .44 Special for HD.

For those interested in a picture, here's one I took yesterday:

Smith & Wesson M696 & Hornady 180gr. XTP

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y40/Bacon51/Model%20696/SW69608.jpg

[GaryP]

I had one split it's case in my SS 696 last year. That likely would have damaged my Ti-cylindered 296.

Do you think it would have damaged the Ti cylinder or -------?

Just curious!


:evil:

[BluesBear]

The variation from shot to shot can be more that than. For those bullets that would equate to only about a 7fps velocity difference. Yes seven.


IF energy was a good predictor of injury then maybe it would make a difference. But not 4.7 ft/lbs. Real world experiences have show us time and time again that energy is not a reliable indicator.


However there are other formulae out there that more accurately compare wounding ability. They are not perfect but they at least seem to mirror real world results.

So lets take a look at Stainz ammo through a set of new eyes;

--cartridge--wt----type---mz/vel---energy----Taylor--Fuller

.44-special-200gr-GDJHP--804fps--286.5-ft/lb---9.85---161

.38-Special-158gr-SWCHP-834fps--243.5-ft/lb---6.72---132

.38-Special-158gr-SWCHP-912fps--291.2-ft/lb---7.35---144

So you see by using either the Taylor Knock-Out factor or the Fuller Power factor the .44 Special comes out on top.

All of these numbers are meaningless if you miss your target or hit a non vital area. A hit in the heart is much more deadly that a hit in the hand with a .50
Where you shoot is more often more important that what you shoot.



Practice safe, practice hard, practice often.

[Stainz]

'OSS' (One Shot Stop) stats are also interesting... The 158gr +P LSWCHP launched from a 2" barrel rated 8% higher than the .45 ACP 230gr FMJ from a 5" barrel. Of course, switch to a Black Talon, or something similar, and the .45 jumps ahead. The .38 Special +P wasn't dropped due to it's lacking of effect in shooting incidents - it was the capacity of the popular semi's that caused it's demise. Fifteen 9mm rounds supposedly beats five or six .38 +P's.

I'll stick with the Starline brass 200gr Gold Dots in my 296 .44 Special. I know that the aircraft grade Al CCI employs is stout. I shot over a thousand .45 ACP Blazers in each, my first 4" 625 and my Marlin Camp .45 carbine; literally thousands of 9mm Blazers through my Camp 9 and CZ-75 (They ran from $3.88-$4.99/50 locally.); twelve hundred+ of those .44 Specials in my 296; and 200 .45 Colt 200gr Blazers through my 625MG and various Rugers. When I didn't reload, they were cheap and very clean - great for the indoor range where I once shot. One split case scared me... the Ti is harder than the SS, but I am not sure how it would have fared with such a failure. I won't buy any more Ti-cylindered revolvers, either. Steel only, thank you. I may go back to Blazers, but not in .44 Special - at least as long as I have that 296. Besides, I'll have more brass... those GA Arms rounds are only $2.01/50 more than the Blazers now. For practice, I load an equivalent round using the the same #4427 Speer Gold Dot over a mid-range (Their data - not Hodgdon's!) load of 5.7gr of Titegroup in Starline brass - with Federal primers. Paranoia dictates that I use commercial ammo for PD, however.

Oddly, whether I choose the GA Arms .44 Special 200gr GDJHP's or the Remington .38 Special 158gr LHPSWC +P's, they still have to be ordered...

Stainz

[DHart]

ProLoad makes a .44 spl load with a 200 gr. Gold Dot designed to perform well at modest velocities (huge hollow cavity with relatively thin walls). Clocks at 900 fps from a 4" tube and about 860 from a 3" 696. The Georgia Arms loading is milder, yielding 850 fps from a 6" tube.

For defense, I like the .44 special a LOT.

Smith & Wesson Model 696-1 .44 Special 3" barrel
http://www.legendportraits.com/Images/Guns/M696Lft.jpg

http://www.legendportraits.com/Images/Guns/M696Rt.jpg

http://www.legendportraits.com/Images/Guns/M696Pachm.jpg

[BluesBear]

Someday I'll find an affordable early 696 with the firing pin on the hammer.

But until then my 2" Taurus 445 will do just fine.
In colder weather I often carry my 3" S&W 29-3.

[tbeb]

That's a good question, Mike. I'm no expert, but I do not prefer .44 special over +P .38 special. I do prefer .45 ACP over +P ,38 special. So, I'd say get a .45 ACP revolver with at least a 4" barrel. (I have 2 loaded handguns in my house. One is a .38 special revolver and the other is a .45 ACP semi-auto pistol.)

[Mike Kerr]

What a great thread. Thanks for posing the initial question, Mike. As I read your question you asked which was the best HOME DEFENSE round. Not what is the best round to carry in a snubby. We may be talking about very different rounds.

I agree with those who said the 44spl + P, in a large frame revolver. In fact I have a loading of 240 gr lead 44spl which I fire out of a Ruger Redhawk 5.5". It is pretty quick on follow up shots and is a very powerful round. I believe the so called 44spl + P out of a revolver which is strong enough to safely handle the round is a sleeping giant. ( Not an aluminum framed Bulldog). If market demand was high enough to encourage industry R&D I believe you could safely have 44spl loadings substantially higher than presently available in commercial loadings. The existing 44spl nominal factory loading of 746 fps for a 246 gr bullet is far less than you can obtain with a good handload.

Just think about it, Elmer Keith was pushing the 44spl to velocities way beyond anything you can find in loading manuals. I have been told he reportedly blew up a few guns along the way and as a matter of prudence I don't exceed published load levels; but I freely admit I load right up to the max loading with two or three powders. The 44 spl so loaded is a thumper. A real thumper, and it makes a big hole.

P.S. I realy like a 38spl + P for concealed carry in a snubby because I can control it even in very rapid fire. But my house guns are in 44 (the Redhawk) and a 45acp in a Para Ordnance P14.

Regards,

:) :) :)



I

[MikeJ]

I really appreciate all of the responses but the bad thing is now I want another gun. :uhoh: I typically use my S&W 2 1/2" 66 or 3" Ruger GP100 loaded with 125 grain .38+P Gold Dots for home defense but now I am really starting to lean towards the 200 grain Gold Dot. I do have a 5 1/2" Redhawk available but the idea of a 3 or 4" S&W 629 is really appealing. I realize that either round will do the job if I do mine but it just seems as if the .44 might be a little more effective in a wider range of scenarios. Why can't we gun nuts just buy something and be happy with it? :rolleyes:

[BluesBear]

Mike Kerr there really is no such thing as a .44 Special +P. I believe what you are referring to are simply near max loadings.

The heavy loads Elmer keith used were loaded in the old folded head or balloon head cases. Those loads will not physically fit into a modern drawn, solid head case.
Don't forget that the guns Elmer blew up were Colt Single Action Armys and S&W N-frames.

Some of the loads he put into .44 Special cases are still migty spicy in .44 Magnum brass!
I know that I woudn't dream of firing one of Elmer's big loads in my Taurus 445.

[Mike Kerr]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
BluesBear wrote:

" Mike Kerr there really is no such thing as a .44 Special +P. I believe what you are referring to are simply near max loadings"
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

BluesBear you are 100% correct.



_____________________________________________________________
BluesBear also wrote:

Some of the loads he put into .44 Special cases are still migty spicy in .44 Magnum brass!
I know that I woudn't dream of firing one of Elmer's big loads in my Taurus 445.
________________________________________________________________

Thank goodness, BluesBear. If you did I'm afraid we would have to remove some parts of that Taurus from you piece by piece. :( :( When I read the velocities he and others in that 44 loading group puportedly got, I realized that several of my 44mag loadings did not generate those velocities. When I read how he mixed powders I really became aware of how lucky some people are. I don't usually have that kind of luck in life :banghead: and I won't start trying now. However, between the polar extremes of anemic factory loads :D created over 75 years ago and Elmer Keith's ballistic rockets :fire: there is a great 44 spl load waiting on a ballistician to discover its secret.

:) :) :)

[BluesBear]

I don't know if I "discovered" these or not but years ago I loaded the Hensley & Gibbs #237 200gr gas checked SWC to about 1000fps and the H&G #35 240gr SWC to about 900. My 4" Charter Arms Police Bulldog seemed to handle them well. I considered them to be about max for the Bulldog and wouldn't hesitate to fire them in my Taurus. I'll have to dig around and see if I can find the exact load I used.

I had been looking for a H&G #245 mould since it is exactly the same as the .45 caliber H&G #68 only in a .429 size. I stumbled across the #237 and since it had an actual crimp groove I went with it and was never sorry.
I used it on a feral dog hunt in Georgia in 1981 and they performed very well from a 5½" Colt New Frontier.


Speaking of good .44 Special loadings, has anyone heard any more about the Black Hills 250 gr load that was to marketed specially for the S&W Thunder Ranch Model 24? Supposedly the sights on the S&W are regulated to POA with this ammo. I keep checking the Black Hills website but have never seen another word about it.

Since the guns are abundant where is the ammo? Inquiring minds want to know!