Gun shop horror story.


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jsalcedo
March 21, 2005, 04:37 PM
A gun dealer friend of mine that I've known for about 20 years has recently
given up working retail gun shops.

He and his family have now been selling at gun shows exclusively.

I asked him why he gave up the retail trade.

He told me a couple of years ago while working in a Houston gun shop
a young man had dropped off his SKS to be fitted with a 30 round mag.
After a day of messing with it he got it working and called the owner to come pick it up.

The guy pays the bill, takes the SKS outside, opens the trunk and proceeds to load it and chamber a round.

Seeing this through the plate glass window my friend tells his wife and son
to get behind the row of gun safes and pulls his .44 mag snubbie.

He also tells his co-worker to get ready.

The youth with the SKS, carrying the rifle with his finger on the trigger turns and walks back to the door of the gunshop with the rifle pointing straight ahead.

With the wife and child safely behind the safes, my friend and his partner steel themselves for the seemingly inevitable shoot out.

The youth pushes the door open and swings the rifle around
casually leveling it at the men behind the counter.

Just as my friend is about to raise his revolver and fire the kid yells out:

"I just wanted to thank you again for doing such a great job on my rifle, it works great" and proceeds to turn around and get back in his car and drive off.

This was the final straw so he gave up the retail business for good.

He has been shot once, shot at 3 times and has been repeatedly burglarized.

One time a truck rammed through the front tof the building late at night while he was working in the office. The robbers begain firing at him immediately and did not retreat until they were met with 8 shots of 00 buck.


I never realized that working in a gun shop could be so dangerous :uhoh:

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Rockrivr1
March 21, 2005, 04:45 PM
WOW!! Your friend showed a lot of constraint by not shooting the guy when he walked through the door. If it was me, I would of never let him swing the barrel in my direction. He would of been met with lead the second he walked in the door if it was leveled and his finger was still on the trigger. Guess it's a good think I don't own a gun store.

Hellbore
March 21, 2005, 05:06 PM
Wow... I noticed a little nervously that all the employees at my local gun store carry a big ugly gun prominently displayed at their hip, COCKED and LOCKED... I guess this kind of thing is why!

In fact, I remember talking to an employee of a local PAINTBALL gun store... This guy carries a Sig at all times in the store ready to fire... He says someone shot up the paintball store (with real guns) and he was hit and almost killed, so he decided to carry ever since then.

Standing Wolf
March 21, 2005, 07:21 PM
He would of been met with lead the second he walked in the door if it was leveled and his finger was still on the trigger.

Yep. As far as I'm concerned, there's only one of me; there's not, however, anything even remotely like a shortage of criminals and damned fools.

pezo
March 21, 2005, 07:33 PM
I like the part about the .44 mag snubbie. :rolleyes:

OH25shooter
March 21, 2005, 07:38 PM
Isn't it amazing how an employee of a gunstore (of all places) has to be armed behind the counter. One would think, who in the world would walk into a gunstore, with all those guns, and have the balls to rob such a store. I can't think of another business that has such a problem. Strange...

orangeninja
March 21, 2005, 07:40 PM
Interesting story.... This is in S.A. you say?

Hellbore
March 21, 2005, 07:41 PM
One would think, who in the world would walk into a gunstore, with all those guns, and have the balls to rob such a store.

Well I think there are a lot of men who have more balls than brains :uhoh:

w12code3
March 21, 2005, 07:50 PM
At jewlery store I used to go to, all the employees openly carried sidearms. It was a really nice, up-scale store too, not a pawn shop.

I guess they wanted to send a message to people who might be doing more than "just looking"

Bear Gulch
March 21, 2005, 08:00 PM
It is scary, because you never know who will show up at your shop. I have a clearing barrel in front of mine with a big sign indicating that all firearms must be cleared before entry.

jsalcedo
March 21, 2005, 10:05 PM
Interesting story.... This is in S.A. you say?

This particular event happened in Houston.

The one with the truck crashing through the store happened in SA.


I like the part about the .44 mag snubbie.

That's what he carries in one form or another....not sure what ammo he uses.

secluded
March 21, 2005, 10:36 PM
I managed a gunshop in CA for a while during the mid-90's. We had a few occassions where folks tried plowing cars and or trucks through the doors after close. It happened on time the day I was to take charge of one of the stores. I showed up about 7:30 to start my new position and the head of security and the district manager where by the back door where some gang bangers (later caught) tried to ram a vehicle through it. We had a steel door/a sliding gate and a post that we would drop into a hole on the inside. It destroyed the door but the post and sliding gate held up. No entry. It happened about an hour before I showed up. Nice to see on your first day :what: . We were not permitted to carry in the store (corp policy) but we had a combo of "store guns" close at hand. There was a pistol behind the firearms counter and a HD style shotgun hanging above the door frame to the "gun room".

I also got to spend one New Years day (about 8 hours) sitting inn the gunshop with one of our security guys. The power was out in the area and our alarm system was non-functional. He parked his truck right in front of the doors and had a power cord that we ran inside to plug the tv in to watch the football games. We also decided hell with "corp policy" and grabbed a few of the nicer guns and loaded them up. I had a H&K P7M8, AR and an M1A resting comfortable beside me :D

R.H. Lee
March 21, 2005, 11:01 PM
Man that's stupid. I never walk into a gunshop with a gun unless it's in a box or a paper bag, which I then sit on the counter and let the guy open himself.

The Rabbi
March 21, 2005, 11:07 PM
Gun stores are obvious and well-known targets of crime. Not allowing employees to go armed is imo beyond stupid.

At the store I worked at we had an NFA semi auto shotgun nearby and a .357 Taurus by the cash register.
Of course the previous owner was just whacko. One time a group of "the brothers" came in looking suspicious. The owner took a whole wad of money from the cash register and threw it out on the counter and then stood there with the shotgun at the ready.

PATH
March 22, 2005, 02:27 AM
How many times have people pulled out firearms without telling me they were about to do so. It can shorten your life all this stress. My SIG is with me at all times in the store along with my lil ol' Kel-Tec P32. The loaded shotgun also makes me feel a bit better. ;)

Stupid people come witht territory in the firearms business.

chris in va
March 22, 2005, 03:58 AM
The guys at the local gun store here always look around you to see who's coming in the door when it chimes. I don't blame them. They all open carry.

Wildalaska
March 22, 2005, 04:48 AM
I have my Seecamp 32 :)


OK OK, we have a 45 Colt Taurus near the register (those silvertips look so nasty in the cylinder) and strategic access to a few other goodies :)


WildbutigottheseecampAlaska

Actually if we are short staffed, I carry my BHP cocked and locked

RoyG
March 22, 2005, 07:34 AM
As far as carrying in a gun shop one of the ones I frequent the guys working behind the counter always open carry. Well the other night I was in there talking to one of them and one of the other guys is showing another customer something. Then the clerk pulls out his sidearm and drops the magazine and then racks the slide back and locks it. Then he shows the customer something on it. He then lets the slide go forward and then inserts his magazine. Puts it back in his holster.

I comment to the guy I'm talking to that he didn't have one in the chamber. He then tells me that the owner doesn't feel it's safe to keep one in the chamber so that's how they all carry. They all carry semiautomatics though. Several of them carry 1911s which are cocked and locked.

guy sajer
March 22, 2005, 09:26 AM
Most of our employees are retired cops and military or active cops . Most of them carry a sidearm under a store supplied 5.11 vest . However , they are not permitted to draw unless a threat is perceived . If they need to demonstrate , we have more than enough guns around for this . We require they step out the back door if they need to chamber a round unless they're carrying a revolver .

20-25 yrs ago in a local gun shop / range no longer in business , a gunshop employee was asked how the grip safety worked on the 1911 he was carrying . Carelessly , he had a negligent discharge and fired one though the front wall ... directly into the radiator of a Caddy out front ... the customers wife was sitting in it at the time . :banghead:

cstreu1026
March 22, 2005, 09:45 AM
oops.

cstreu1026
March 22, 2005, 09:47 AM
Mitch,

Not only are the vests functional but they look quite snazzy as well. Oh yeah and you have a very nice store with very knowledgable employees.

Of the other two stores I visit Most of the employees open carry. To me it only makes sense when you consider the value of the merchandise and the potential problems that may arise. To a sensible person a gun shop would be the last place you would try to rob...especially during business hours. However, as one would imagine most criminals are lacking in the common sense department.

gvass
March 22, 2005, 09:59 AM
A Hungarian hunting/guns shop owner was killed last friday morning.

He was stabbed several times.

Only 3 firearm (2 shotguns, 1 Taurus .357 Mag revo) was stolen.

He reportedly not carried.

guy sajer
March 22, 2005, 11:32 AM
Not only are the vests functional but they look quite snazzy as well. Oh yeah and you have a very nice store with very knowledgable employees. ...
Thank you we're definately not perfect , but we try to give it our best effort .


A Hungarian hunting/guns shop owner was killed last friday morning...
How tragic . I'm very sorry to hear this .

JohnKSa
March 22, 2005, 11:58 AM
Seems like I posted this before, but a gun shop down the street from where I grew up was robbed by a guy with a knife. (Should say attempted...)

He asked for something up on a shelf behind the counter and stabbed the proprietor severely with a bayonet when he turned his back. When the guy turned back around, the attacker slashed him, nearly removing some fingers, cutting the side of his face (knocking off his glasses) and continuing down into a long cut in his upper chest. The store owner fell down and as he did so, he drew his PPK. The attacker followed him as he fell and was standing over him preparing to stab him again when he emptied the PPK.

The attacker said "Please don't shoot me again." and expired on top of the owner. He managed to extricate himself from under the body but was too weak to stand to reach the phone. He crawled to the shop next door and they called for help.

Interesting points:

The attacker didn't threaten, he just attacked. He was clearly doing everything in his power to kill the owner and very nearly succeeded. Yet when he was injured, the first thought in his mind was to ask for mercy.

The gun store owner was able to instantly stop a determined attacker with a mousegun even after being severely injured, and although he was nearly blind without his glasses.

A well-prepared person armed with a firearm was attacked with a knife and very nearly didn't survive the attack.

gvass
March 22, 2005, 12:27 PM
"Yet when he was injured, the first thought in his mind was to ask for mercy.
"

NO MERCY. PERIOD.

I have a gun shop. NO MERCY is our policy.

Lonestar.45
March 22, 2005, 12:32 PM
The shops I go to, there's usually 1, 2, or more on duty LEO's there checking out pistols on their lunch break, and probalby just as more undercover/offduty packing, and no telling how many CCW's in the crowd, and a lot of the counter guys are armed. You'd have to be moronic to try to hold up a place like that (then again, any holdup is pretty moronic). I wonder how many holes a guy would have in him before he hit the ground if he tried that. After hours, I guess that's another thing.

Rickstir
March 22, 2005, 02:41 PM
I try to be considerate when in my local shop. If I need a holster I leave the gun in the car and go in and tell them I want to bring in a weapon. I show it clear and then proceed to the holster section. They are nice guys and we get along. :p

gigmike
March 22, 2005, 04:16 PM
Gunstore robberies seem to happen so often that I can't conceive of not carrying.

I realize I should feel safe as the employees are likely carrying. However, one time in a local shop I was being helped by an employee who had a 1911 in a shoulder rig with no cover garment. I thought that was pretty unique and kind of neat until they turned away to get something off a shelf and I saw the barrel and noted that it was only a 22. I got my ammunition and managed to hold my laughter until I was in my car.

Mixlesplick
March 22, 2005, 06:15 PM
A nearby gunshop ordered a front sight for my .22 WMR boltie. When I brought the rifle in and uncased it I realized I had left the mag in. I dropped the mag and pulled the bolt back and then proceeded to apologize profusely. The owner was a lot more understanding than I would have been under the circumstances. At least I carried the case into the store muzzle up and laid it out on the counter with the barrel pointing down the counter and not at anyone. :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

guy sajer
March 23, 2005, 12:13 AM
I've lost count on the number of loaded guns brought in to sell or for service :cuss:

english kanigit
March 23, 2005, 02:20 AM
Of course the previous owner was just whacko. One time a group of "the brothers" came in looking suspicious. The owner took a whole wad of money from the cash register and threw it out on the counter and then stood there with the shotgun at the ready.

Awww, c'mon. That's not very sporting, he should lay the money on a table across the room so the lead sponge at least has a chance to twitch after grabbing the roll! :evil:


At the range I use, they have two sets of access doors. The first set trip a very abnoxious buzzer and the second are magnetically locked w/ the control button near the register. Most of the sales types carry.

Clean97GTI
March 23, 2005, 03:06 AM
The inteligence (or lack there-of) of some criminal types is just staggering. There was a well known story of a man who tried to shoot-up and rob a gun store.
Well, there just happened to be a police cruiser parked out front with a uniformed officer inside. The man burst in and saw the cop. The shooting started but the officer had a jam. Fortuneatly, a legaly-carrying citizen dispatched the criminal with three shots from his Delta Elite.

One of my favorite shops has to buzz you in. You are clearly visible through the front window and they never just punch the button. They always check you out first. There are always two shotguns and several pistols lying in wait should the SHTF. Everyone carries here as well and the owner packs two.

The other place has two large cabinets on either side of the door with counter space along the inner perimeter. You can be shot from anywhere in the room (and everyone carries a hot weapon) and escape is difficult with two massive crates blocking you. They also keep several weapons handy around the shop.

38SnubFan
March 23, 2005, 03:23 AM
One of my favorite retail [chain] stores for firearms and accessories, Gander Mountain, has a sign posted that states, "All firearms must be checked in at the Customer Service desk." Underneath that in small print are the words, "This policy does not apply to CCW permit holders." Now, I LOVE the fact that me, being a CCW permit holder, can continue to stay armed while shopping in that store. However, the employees, even in the Firearms Department, are not permitted to be armed, either open carry or concealed.

Now, with a place that sells, stocks, and displays a BOAT LOAD of firearms such as this, you would think at least ONE EMPLOYEE would be armed. For this, I now carry EVERY TIME I go in that store, just in the odd (God Forbid) chance it would be robbed while I'm shopping there. I'd hate to think of some punk robbing and stealing a bunch of guns in order to go out and cause an exponential amount of more violence. I'd further hate to think that an employee would be crippled or killed in the process and not be able to stop the act.

This confuses and frustrates me a great deal. I know companies do this for insurance liability reasons (keeps the insurance premiums lower), but I think it would actually be in their best financial AND personal liability interests to allow employees to CCW (by the employee's choice of course. I know people who work there who are NOT fond of firearms whatsoever, but still enjoy the outdoors.).

-38SnubFan

50 Freak
March 23, 2005, 05:29 AM
Here in Kali, I carry my CCW peice into every gunstore I frequent. Regardless of if they have a sign say "No loaded gun past this point".

Worst that can happen if they found out I had a legally concealed weapon is they ask me to leave. Big whoop, I'll take my money somewhere else then.

Worse that can happen if I leave my CCW in the car and some nut decides he's had a bad day is that I'm carried out in a body bag and my wife is made a widow. Not a tough choice.

But I do agree with the fact some people just don't think when it comes to guns and gun stores. When I worked at Turners in S. Cal (big gun/sporting goods chain) some "hommie" came in one time with a Mak90 with a full drum in and a bunch of mags sticking out of his pockets. Pretty much everyone in the behind the gun counter put their hands on thier sidearms until this Einstein came to the counter and asked for a sling, not even realizing how close he came to be swiss cheese.

Some people are just plain stupid :banghead: :banghead:

Clean97GTI
March 23, 2005, 05:37 AM
You might be surprised to find that carrying a firearm into a place that displays a "No Firearms" sign can actually be a crime.

Just be careful if you carry in a place that says its a no-no.

peacefuljeffrey
March 23, 2005, 06:24 AM
Actually, I would be surprised to find that carrying a concealed firearm into a business that prohibits it is indeed a crime. As I am informed of it, the store policy does not carry the force of law. IF they should discover that I am armed despite the policy, and ask me to leave, and I refuse, then I would be guilty of trespassing.

That said, I join 50 Freak in saying that I NEVER abide by the "no loaded guns" policy of the various gun shops I patronize, and I make no apology for it. How dare they SELL me guns but then imply that I am not safe to carry a gun in their presence?! I tend to think that such signs and policies are there as window dressing only, to discourage idiots, but are not really meant in earnest. Perhaps it is an insurance thing, and the insurance company demands that they tell people they can't bring guns in loaded. Ironically, I see this kind of sign in gun shops that are SHOOTING RANGES. They won't let you bring in loaded weapons, but they let you load them inside and FIRE them. :rolleyes: How much damned sense does that make?


I sure hope that in the stories told here when people stupidly carried loaded guns openly into a store, they were ultimately informed in no uncertain terms that they had just done a major no-no and almost got themselves killed. I hope it was explained to them why what they did was stupid, so that they could learn from it. No sense in letting them go, in a condition bound to repeat the mistake.

-Jeffrey

Clean97GTI
March 23, 2005, 06:44 AM
I stand corrected.

After browsing Californias laws regarding carry (packing.org) I found no such statute.

NV has one that prohibits carry where there are signs or metal detectors, but only in public buildings. This is what I was thinking of.

good lookin out.

TrybalRage
March 23, 2005, 10:17 AM
Clean:

I believe some states do have that law, maybe Texas is one? The sign has to meet specific requirements though...

NukemJim
March 23, 2005, 10:34 AM
"I believe some states do have that law, maybe Texas is one? The sign has to meet specific requirements though..."

Yes I believe they call it the 30.06 signs

NukemJim

TechBrute
March 23, 2005, 10:51 AM
In Texas, you have to post very specific signs to legally prohibit a CHL holder from carrying in your store. A sign that just says "No guns" does not have any legal application for a CHL holder.

GRB
March 23, 2005, 11:06 AM
In all likelihood, had that been me in the gun shop, the kid would have been dead or at least full of holes. There is also a good chance I would have armed myself with a shotgun or rifle before the kid even got his put together and someone like my wife would have been told to call 911 and explain the situation as it was unfolding. You can never really know what would have happened had things been otherwise, after the fact, but you can always second guess and, I base what I would have done on my training, my past experience and so forth. My guess is that is how it would have been.

As for this: Actually, I would be surprised to find that carrying a concealed firearm into a business that prohibits it is indeed a crime. As I am informed of it, the store policy does not carry the force of law. IF they should discover that I am armed despite the policy, and ask me to leave, and I refuse, then I would be guilty of trespassing.Under the new fedral law that allows police and feds to carry in all sattes without any sort of a permit (including retirees) it would be, in my understanding, a violation of that statute to enter any location that prohibits the carrying of firearms. This includes private businesses.

All the best,
GB

Chief101
March 23, 2005, 09:49 PM
In Arkansas the CCW law says that if a business posts a sign saying the CCWs are not allowed then it is a violation of said law to carry into that business. If a person is caught is this situation, he or she can be arrested on the spot.

Hardtarget
March 24, 2005, 01:25 AM
I remember the best reason for carry while working in a gun shop..." the criminal wants three things...drugs, guns, and money. We have two of them." It would surprise me if they didn't carry!
Mark.

Husker1911
March 24, 2005, 01:44 AM
I've been at this a while, making my full time living managing gun stores since 1991. Yeah, I've had many loaded guns come into the shop. We don't post signs, but I've instructed all employees to immediately contact any customer coming in with a firearm, and to open the action. We do this discreetly and efficiently. A co-worker once cleared a .40 P229. I was standing next to him. As he opened the action, the muzzle was pointed at my ample mid section. Lo and behold, a cartridge spilled into his palm! I wasn't polite to the customer........

I'm now going to start a thread asking the best gunstore question you ever heard...............

peacefuljeffrey
March 24, 2005, 06:20 AM
In all likelihood, had that been me in the gun shop, the kid would have been dead or at least full of holes. There is also a good chance I would have armed myself with a shotgun or rifle before the kid even got his put together and someone like my wife would have been told to call 911 and explain the situation as it was unfolding. You can never really know what would have happened had things been otherwise, after the fact, but you can always second guess and, I base what I would have done on my training, my past experience and so forth. My guess is that is how it would have been.

Let me see if I have this correctly.

Based on your training, past experience and so forth, you are saying that you would have killed the kid...

when we know, based on how it DID play out, that he was not intent on committing any violence, or any crime at all?

Does that speak well of your training and your intuition?

You're admitting here that you would have shot in a "no-shoot" scenario.

That does not inspire a lot of confidence. :rolleyes:

-Jeffrey

Model520Fan
March 24, 2005, 06:47 AM
A co-worker once cleared a .40 P229. I was standing next to him. As he opened the action, the muzzle was pointed at my ample mid section. Lo and behold, a cartridge spilled into his palm! I wasn't polite to the customer........


And the co-worker?

CleverName
March 24, 2005, 07:05 AM
Let me see if I have this correctly.

Based on your training, past experience and so forth, you are saying that you would have killed the kid...

when we know, based on how it DID play out, that he was not intent on committing any violence, or any crime at all?

Does that speak well of your training and your intuition?

You're admitting here that you would have shot in a "no-shoot" scenario.

That does not inspire a lot of confidence.

-Jeffrey

Just to play Devil's Advocate for a second - there's no way to know his intentions before he spoke up and said "Thanks." He could have decided to try out his SKS on the others in the store, or he could have just had a moment of forgetfullness/extreme stupidness (happens to us all, otherwise we'd NEVER ND). Who is it that once said "Hope for the best, plan for the worst"? I think that applies here - hope that the kid just wanted to say "Hi" or "Could I get some Wolf?" but prepare for him shouldering the arm.

GRB
March 25, 2005, 04:50 PM
Jeffery,

...we know, based on how it DID play out, that he was not intent on committing any violence, or any crime at all?...Therein lies the fault of your line of thought, you are Monday Morning quarterbacking saying we know how it worked out. You would not have known then what was about to happen, and the guy at the gun store would have been pointing a loaded assault rifle at you had you been the proprietor. You do not need to be able to predict the future and know how a situation is about to turn out before you take legally justifiable means to protect yourself.

You ought to think about that situation in a 'time it is happening' frame of mind, not an after thought sought of mind. If you don't want to, fine, you may someday regret your failure to assess a potential threat. As for me I see no need to give the guy the chance to level a rifle and kill me.

I guess you have never seen the police crusier video of the guy who does almost exactly as this guy did with a rifle during a traffic stop. He was stopped by the cop, acted like a nut, false charged the officer. Then he went into his P/U, assembled an assault rifle, and as doing so, despite being told numberous times by the cop to stop, he got it all put together and loaded. Then he killed the cop. When do you think that officer should have shot back? Do you think he should have waited, as did the officer, untiul the bad guy was firing?

Sounds like the cop probably and the store owner in each of the above mentioned examples thought along the same lines as you possibly do. You may as well not carry a firerarm - you will never have it out in time if a competent shooter decides to take you out. I do not think like that, nor am I legally required (in my state or federally) to think like that. If someone loads a weapon and points it at me, or even starts to turn on me in a situation like the ones described while holding a weapon I believe to be loaded, or starts top level a firearm at me, that person is a deadly threat (not in my mind but in the eyes of the law). In fact, if you saw the police video the guy should have been shot long before he actually loaded the weapon and even before it was fully assembled and; in the gunstre scenario something should have been done long before he got in the door if there had been time. Waiting for a guy to walk in, point a loaded gun at you, then hoping he is about to say thanks or just waiting to see what he does is out and out ridiculous. Remember, the guy at the store actually did have a loaded weapon and it he actually pointed at the proprietor. That would in all likelihood have been perceived by me as a threat, a deadly threat.

I said all of that based upon my expereince, training, the fact that the guy would pointing a loaded weapon at me had I been the one involved. So yes, I am satying he likely would have been full of holes or dead had I been the one involved. At the very least he would have been charged and tackled and disarmed, but then again as I said I do not have to place myself in harms way or use that low an amount of force when faced by a deadly threat. I of course, can not say for sure what I would have done, but it is quite likely that had the guy done just what was described there would have been a darned good chance he would have been shot - that is waht I can say. There was probable cause, to believe he was about to seriously harm or shoot someone, enough to shoot him. It all would have been dependent upon what I saw and when, where I was located, who else was in danger - it would have been deoendent upon the totality of the circumstances that I was able to perceive (and no I cannot predict the future). If I had watched him putting it together, maybe there would have been time to question his intent, to tell him to stop, to exit to stop him, then again maybe not. Again, maybe such would have put me in further into harm's way - a place I am not required to place myself.

I have shot a person when he tried to mug me and pointed what I thought was a gun at me. It actually turned out to not be a gun but was a pipe that he used to simulate a gun. I did not know this until long after he had been shot by me. It was deemed a good shooting by the police, the DA's office, my job, my job's internal affairs, my HQ in DC. If someone approached me again in the same exact manner I would not hesitate to shoot again this time a little higher maybe (I shot him in the testicles), but basically the same way. You see the thing is at the moment the threat presents itself, all it need be is an imminent threat of seriously bodily injury or death, no one has to actually be shooting at you (at least where I live).

If you have learned by this, then you may live through another day if such a situation ever arises in your life. You may have to live with the fact that it was a pipe, a toy gun, a kid trying to commit suicide by cop (or by armed citizen) or a jerk who comes back to say thank you by pointing a loaded assault rifle at you. If, on the other hand, you do not shoot and he does, well then tough noogies for you, or for your wife or child whom he just has shot because of hesitation or timidity or uncertainess or because of lack of a plan on your part. I would much rather it be a legally justifiable tough noogies for him instead of for me. I can live with that.

Best regards,

Glenn B

Hellbore
March 25, 2005, 04:59 PM
I shot him in the testicles

Holy ****.... Poor guy, you should have just killed him! You're one mean bastard, remind me not to get on your bad side :D

GRB
March 25, 2005, 05:07 PM
Lest we forget: The youth pushes the door open and swings the rifle around casually leveling it at the men behind the counter. Isn't this just what happened in the most recent school shooting and in some others. The shooters were very casual, they poited their rifles, then: ???????

You see you can not kow ahead of time what is about to happen. You have to immediately take some form of action thereby taking away the edge that the other guy has. If you react instead of act you can wind up dead. Instead, take command by acting and not reacting based upon your readiness, attitude, planning, skill level, training, experience, intelligence and so on.

In the classroom, the kid casually leveled the rifle at his classmates and started firing. In the store the guy behind the counter, the store owner, had left himself open to die. Only his friend or coworker had the right plan he was about to fire. The kid is lucky that the friend of the store owner did not fire regardless of the kids saying thanks. So long as that gun was pointed at them there wasa threat. The kid could have shot just as easily as saying thanks, or just as easily once he had said thanks. For instance, he points gun at the two men, says thanks, shoots them both, kills wife and kid, takes as many guns as he ca grab and leaves. There was no way of knowing - yet the threat he presented was a rela as real can get.

If you were armed in a park and a guy casually pointed a rifle at you what would you do? What about in a school? What about at a firearms range? What about at the gun shop. You make up your own mind based on your training and experience, I will do likewise based upon my own. I will take control of such situastions by taking action not by reaction. Reacting to a guy putting a couple of rifle rounds into your chest is a too late sort of a thing to do if you want to live into retirement. I want to get a chance to spend mine for years to come and, I have not retired yet.

All the best,
GB

GRB
March 25, 2005, 05:15 PM
The entry hole was in his right thigh, with exit hole in right thigh, with entry hole into right testicle, with exit hole in left testicle, with entry hole in left thigh, with bulet traveling down to about his knee area. Shot as soon as it cleared leather, ready to shhot again. Also had to scan and saw his accomplice with real revolver in hand, shot toward him would have taken off his head but he was still in car behind windshield. I then again scanned the first guy, who was obviously no longer a threat as he was trying to hold on to something (not the pipe) and trying to get into car. Car sped away backwards, shot guy runs after car (yeah, 9mm is just a poodle round at best) and he gets in the car. Car sppeds off. Cops arrive, no blood, no gun, worried me. Guy shot, gets caught a couple days later in hospital. First says a crazy white guy walked up t him and some friends and started to shoot. Eventualy confessed and gave up his cousin too (guy in car). Lots of relief for me when he changed his story to a confession of the real facts.

Lots of bad dreams (nightmares about shootings and bad guys killing me with my gun not working), 6 months of therapy for that, temper change for me to worse than ever, back to therapy BUT I am alive. Who knows what would have happened had I hesitated and they found my gun and badge. Maybe I would be dead. I would do it again no hesitation or so I hope under similar circumstances.

jsalcedo
March 25, 2005, 05:23 PM
Good posts Glenn. You have given me a new perspective on these kind of situations.

Hellbore
March 25, 2005, 05:24 PM
Sounds to me like those asshats got what they deserved. One with a fake gun, the other with a real gun... Jeez. Sorry to hear how hard it was on you. I hope we all can react as well in a dangerous situation as you did!

Kinda reminds me of something that happened to my neighbor's son a few years ago (he was a LEO also). He was called by a frantic girl who said her ex-boyfriend was following her and she was in a parking lot waiting for the cops to come. The officer pulls up behind the boyfriend's car and gets out to go talk to the boyfriend. While he is walking towards the car, the boyfriend gets out of the car with an AR15 and proceeds to open fire. Lots of misses, but the 3 or so that hit him did a lot of damage. One went into his hip and shattered it, another went in under his kevlar at the shoulder somewhere and bounced around. He was on the ground before he could even draw his gun. The perp then walked over and stood over him and took aim at his head to deal the death blow, but somehow he was finally able to snatch out his sidearm and emptied it into the perp. The perp died in the hospital later and the LEO spent months in the hospital. He is still in pain and has limited use of his leg and arm, from what I hear.

Anyways my point was to agree with you, that a seemingly iffy situation can turn deadly in a heartbeat, so you can't hesitate.

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