Once CMP runs out of Garands, then what?


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Kenshin
March 21, 2005, 09:25 PM
Where we will the rest of us get our Garands?

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Ed
March 21, 2005, 09:27 PM
Off the internet at VERY high prices. Buy some from the CMP as soon as you can. :)

Abby
March 21, 2005, 09:50 PM
I have a very good friend "of a certain age" who has been enjoying all these CMP sales.

I plan to mug him. Kindly but firmly.

Kidding- buy 'em now if you can spare the cash. :)

nico
March 21, 2005, 09:53 PM
Springfield is still producing the Garand, but retail is about $1350.

alamo
March 21, 2005, 09:58 PM
I've got mine. Too bad for those down the road though. Since they allow folks to purchase 8 /year, they will be gone in 3-4 years last I heard.


The CMP apparently needs the revenue from rifle sales to keep operating. I argued on a thread at their forum to maybe cut that limit back to 2-3 per year but was basically blown off by the administrator.

They will have to live without the rifle sales revenue one day but until then they are trying to sell them as fast as they possibly can.

Kenshin
March 21, 2005, 10:04 PM
All right, how about a petition to cut the limit to 4 a year?

Dionysusigma
March 21, 2005, 11:11 PM
To heck with that--what about us that don't have one yet?

I say they only sell to newcomers until everyone has one. THEN people can buy more. :)

jefnvk
March 21, 2005, 11:11 PM
If you want to see a sad thing, go to the store. Try picking over the Greek rack grades trying to find a new one, while some guy is grabbing everyone there is out and loading them on a rack to buy. Gets frustrating picking through when 2 guys are doing this, and the worse four or so are sitting there for an hour while they are getting processed. And you can pretty much imagine they are going to a shop to be marked up to $800, making $500 each. $500 * 8 rifles = $4000 profit for him.

(to anyone that has done that for personal use, OK, but show some courteosy to the kid who is trying to get just one nice one)

alamo
March 21, 2005, 11:36 PM
Supposedly, part of the logic (in addition to revenue) is that a future administration may decide to have them all destroyed so they want to get rid of them before that can happen. As it stands now, that is extremely unlikely in the foreseeable future but that is not stopping the CMP. From the discussion I've read that those that can afford to buy many M1s per year (including dealers) are all behind the 8 per year sales. Those that hope to buy one someday or those that would like to see the supply limited so more people can benefit from future sales would like to see the annual limit cut back to a more reasonable level.

It seems when someone suggests going to a lower annual limit, folks immediately say that you want to go back to the old program of one per lifetime which is not what is being suggested but that is a typical response.

There are a finite amount of M1s left, it would be nice to put them in the hands of as many folks as is practical vs. many in the hands of a select few. That would certainly help promote the CMP's mission but they don't see it that way.

swingset
March 22, 2005, 12:15 AM
The CMP isn't fulfilling it's intended purpose anymore, it's now a cash cow....operating for profit and doing quite nicely thanks to the scumbag dealers and profit hounds looking to make money off of the 8 they buy. They can't sell enough, move that product!!

I know at my local range there was a dealer telling people he would buy their Garand if they did the CMP thing and let him have the other 7....and people were taking him up on it for a while. Finally the club intervened and made him stop soliciting (tho I'm sure he's still at it somewhere).

This is what the 8 per-year feed trough has accomplished. Good going CMP!! :banghead:

It's all about marksmanship and having a piece of history, right?

chickenfried
March 22, 2005, 12:24 AM
I don't see how it's the CMP's fault that some conusmers choose to buy a Garand elsewhere. Buying from the CMP is so easy even a monkey like me can figure it out.
I've tried explaining about the CMP to people checking out Garands at gun stores. Both people thanked me and bought the overpriced Garands they were checking out.

swingset
March 22, 2005, 01:03 AM
I don't see how it's the CMP's fault that some conusmers choose to buy a Garand elsewhere.

What I take issue with is that they were FOUNDED to promote marksmanship and to train citizens in time of need to become marksmen, and by offering surplus rifles for a cheap price they allowed civilians to enjoy target shooting and competition.....

And instead of doing this, they have become nothing more than a gun distributor....selling rifles at profit, at slightly above wholesale prices, in too-large amounts to dealers. That's not what the CMP is supposed to be for, and it hurts us all whether you realize it or not. Dealers and wannabe dealers are profiting off of their lax and "wholesale" selling program, and it's against the spirit and function of the CMP.

Here is what the CMP is supposed to be (from their website):
The CMP was created by the U.S. Congress. The original purpose was to provide civilians an opportunity to learn and practice marksmanship skills so they would be skilled marksmen if later called on to serve the U.S. military. Over the years the emphasis of the program shifted to focus on youth development through marksmanship. From 1916 until 1996 the CMP was administered by the U.S. Army. The National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 1996 (TITLE XVI) created the Corporation for the Promotion of Rifle Practice & Firearms Safety, Inc. (CPRPFS) to take over administration and promotion of the CMP. The CPRPFS is a tax exempt not-for-profit 501(c)(3) organization that derives its mission from public law.

I'm all for the sale of rifles, and I'm all for a couple a year, but not 8....that's the CMP making easy $$ instead of serving its mission.

Sam
March 22, 2005, 02:25 AM
The emphasis at ODCMP is on the youth programs, exactly where it needs to be. Mr. Anderson and company made the best decision possible on this course and I agree with them 100%.

The purpose of the organization is not to sell rifles, it is to promote shooting.
The do that by using the money derived from selling rifles. Given the political climate in the US I would sell all of them tomorrow and get the kids shooting the day after. Get their little minds under control now while we can.

As for those who are afraid the "they will run out befor I get mine". Get one now and stop your whining.
It has never been easier and it won't get any easier. In terms of what a dollar is worth, they haven't been any less expensive either.

Stop whining, go buy your rifle and then take a kid to the range.

Sam

swingset
March 22, 2005, 03:59 AM
Stop whining, go buy your rifle and then take a kid to the range.

Nice.

You know, it was precisely because of bum-rush dealers who were waiting with 8 orders in hand that the Danes ran out so quickly, and now all the rack grades are disappearing. By the time some of us had our paperwork together and our money saved, some of the good ones were long gone and we were on hold till the Greeks arrived. There are plenty of Collector grades of all stripes left, why is that I wonder??

Because no one makes any money turning over a $1200 Garand at the shows....but they make a fortune turning over a $340 rack grade for $600 to the uninitiated. Is that what the CMP sells rifles for? To make dealers rich?

I thought the idea was to sell cheaply to allow common folks access to service rifles for competition and marksmanship....but according to you the sales program is only to fund youth programs. (nice spin)

Some of us don't have alot of money...and putting an order together takes alot of effort and a bit of saving. We're PRECISELY who the CMP was supposed to serve by selling off Garands and 03's. Some of us don't like the "spirit" of the CMP being tread upon by opportunists - apparently you don't mind....I do.

If the CMP was a bit, just a bit, more concerned with seeing their rifles go to people who want them and not to profiteers, we wouldn't run out of rack grades and have to pick through what the volume dealers left behind.

TheOtherOne
March 22, 2005, 05:37 AM
Buying from the CMP is so easy even a monkey like me can figure it out.

This is probably a stupid question, but can someone explain how I can buy one? I think I want to get me one now, even if I have to put it on the card.

swingset
March 22, 2005, 06:06 AM
http://www.odcmp.com/Services/Rifles/eligibility_requirements.htm

El Tejon
March 22, 2005, 09:29 AM
When the M1s run out, THR will stop worrying about the zombie bears under their beds organize and lobby Congress to modify the "once a machine gun always a machine gun rule", re-importation of militree weapons, and implement federal preemption of firearms regulations. This will allow the CMP to sell surplus M14s converted to Title I configs.

When we run out of M14s, the CMP will sell surplus M16s, M16A1s, M16A2s (when the ACR comes out shortly). THR will rejoice, El Tejon will go to the sushi bar and flirt with waitresses. :D

Redneck Revolver
March 22, 2005, 09:34 AM
check around your local mil-surp store. at least thats what i would do. mine (the own my buddy owns) has about 30-40 garands, varying in degrees of price and quality.

TheDutchman
March 22, 2005, 11:24 AM
Yeah a guy at the Austin Gun Show sales Garand's he get from CMP plus 1903's and 1903a3. :fire:

jefnvk
March 22, 2005, 11:57 AM
I just had a thought. The paperwork you sign says that the rifle cannot be purchased for resale. What if they just opened a complaint line, where people could call in and see if the 8 M1's on a dealers shelf was recently purchased from CMP. If so, that person would be prohibited from purchasing again for so long.

Maybe need a bit better way of doing it, but the idea is there. Anyone caught buying specifically to resell for a profit would have their right to buy taken away.

George S.
March 22, 2005, 12:14 PM
Immediate reselling of CMP rifles is a big problem. I have seen M1's and '03's at the local gunshows where the rifle is sitting on the CMP shipping container with prices in the $800 area for Garands and $600-700 for a 1903A3. What is really funny is that these sales always seem to portray a CMP rifle as being in excellent condition when in fact, they are sometimes pretty sad looking.

The CMP knows this is going on, but they really don't have the staff to track serial numbers of their sales agains what somebody sells at a show. And then there is always a case of somebody buying a CMP rifle and getting into some sort of financial difficulty and having to sell their rifle(s).

I only have one Garand and a 1903A3, but I'm slowly saving up for another M1. There is talk of prices going up at the CMP soon. According to the CMP website, the only USGI service grade rifles available are the Springfields. The H&R rifles are not available. There are still lots of rack grade rifles available.

I'm envious of the people that can go to the North Store at Camp Perry and walk thru the racks to pick out a Garand; sometimes the staff will even go into the storage area and bring out something special if a customer asks. I can't really do a 3500 mile round trip so I have to order by mail and get what the Anniston warehouse sends me. Sure wish there was a West Coast store!!

TimRB
March 22, 2005, 12:30 PM
"Maybe need a bit better way of doing it, but the idea is there. Anyone caught buying specifically to resell for a profit would have their right to buy taken away."

I think Swingset has a valid point. Maybe eight rifles a year is too many, and the number should be reduced to 1-2. (I think it actually *was* 1/year when it was the DCM, but as I recall my memory isn't very good.) If someone is trying to outfit a club with rifles for shooting matches, I'm sure special arrangements could be made.

Tim

jefnvk
March 22, 2005, 01:10 PM
And then there is always a case of somebody buying a CMP rifle and getting into some sort of financial difficulty and having to sell their rifle(s).

I have no problems at all with that. I also have no real problem if someone wants to buy a few (2 or 3) to try and get a gun together that is all correct, and sell the others to get thier money back. Or if they are outfitting a club.

But when there are 6 M1 sitting on a table at a gunshow with serial numbers stamped into the stock, or with those fat blonde stocks, to me that just screams I just got here from Ohio!

I believe that my Grandfather said when he got his DCM gun, it was one per lifetime.

I'm envious of the people that can go to the North Store at Camp Perry and walk thru the racks to pick out a Garand
It's like you died and went to heaven ;)

chickenfried
March 22, 2005, 01:13 PM
+1
Stop whining, go buy your rifle and then take a kid to the range.

30Cal
March 22, 2005, 01:25 PM
Back before '96, the wait time for your single M1 through the DCM was 9-12 months. But in those days, they got an appropriation from Congress for operations and the money from sales went back into the Treasury. One rifle per person worked just fine.

Now, they don't get an appropriation. All current operations (sales and National Matches) and future operations (National Matches) must be funded by sales. The longer they are in the business of distrubing rifles, the more they're going to pay out in overhead. On top of that, they still need to promote marksmanship (which means trying to put rifles into the hands of folks that are going to shoot them). It's a tough balance to maintain, but the path they've chosen is to set limits which put them on pace to sell out sooner than later. The money they have on hand at the end of the sale will hopefully fund the competition side of the house indefinitely.

It's probably not going to change, so get yours while the gettin's good. The prices they offer have always been generously below the market value.

Ty

HankB
March 22, 2005, 01:25 PM
Yeah a guy at the Austin Gun Show sales Garand's he get from CMP . . . More than one guy, actually. I remember one enterprising fellow was selling an $800 collector's item . . . it seems this particular Garand, though it was rather more beat up than the average M1, actually contained parts from ALL FOUR M1 manufacturers - SA, WRA, IHC and HRA. This made it a rather special rifle, which is why he was asking a premium price. :rolleyes:

Ed
March 22, 2005, 06:43 PM
If people wouldn't pay $800 for a garand that is at a gunshow that came from the CMP, the prices wouldn't be so high. It is VERY easy to buy from the CMP. You get a better rifle and a better price. I can't afford 8 a year, but if someone can who am I to say they shouldn't be able to buy them. As long as those are the rules, buy as many as you can.

jefnvk
March 22, 2005, 08:59 PM
Got another idea. Actually, 2.

#1) Take the current inventory, grade them off. Anything with a muzzle wear of, oh, lets say 4 (doesn't have to be that, just follow me), or a TE of 6 (again, just grabbing a number out of the air). Put all those rifles in a bin. Take what is left of the non-collectors ones, and set them aside. The better shape ones go for competition shooting. Put a limit of 1 per year, 1 every other year, or something like that. Take the worse off ones, and sell like they currently are selling. Same for the collectors, and they bothe count towards your total. That would ensure that at least some of the good ones get left out for competition.

#2) A simpler idea. Keep everything the same. First rifle and second rifle, you pay the price advertised. Third, you pay 10% more. Fourth, 20% more. Fifth, 30% more, and so on. That would at least slow some people down.

chickenfried
March 22, 2005, 09:22 PM
This thread sure is making me get the urge to buy my 7th CMP rifle :neener: .

johnrobe
March 22, 2005, 10:21 PM
"Maybe need a bit better way of doing it, but the idea is there. Anyone caught buying specifically to resell for a profit would have their right to buy taken away."

True, CMP doesn't have the manpower to go after those who abuse the intent of its charter. But I also get the feeling that it doesn't really bother them either.....they're a business. The only folks who get irate are we collectors. The silence from the CMP concerning this issue, on their own BBoard, speaks volumes. When it comes to enforcing their own "not for resell" rule they are truly a paper tiger.

If they're not going to enforce their own rule, I wish they'd just remove it, instead of putting on a charade.

Hopefully I'll be able to pick up my second M1 before the hyenas take them all.

355sigfan
March 23, 2005, 09:51 AM
I would like to buy a garand for my dad. But there is no club in my area. I am a police officer so I don't have to shoot at a match. But the club requirment is a problem.
Pat

captain obvious
March 23, 2005, 09:59 AM
Join the Garand Collectors Association - only about $30 for a year, and great publications all about the M1.

jefnvk
March 23, 2005, 10:07 AM
I would like to buy a garand for my dad. But there is no club in my area.

Like mentioned, GCA. Online registration. Or, check out the list on their site. Many can be joined online, send them your CC, they send you a membership card.

Or, if your dad is a member of a Veteran's organization, I believe those count now. Have him send in the paperwork, and you just pay for it.

355sigfan
March 23, 2005, 10:52 AM
Thanks guys. My dad is a Korean war vet. I got him a WW2 1911 last year. Well sort of it was a Remington Frame and a Colt Slide but they dated back to WWII. He liked it. Next year I wanted to get him a garand. I would not mind one myself.
Pat

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