FFL to FFL transfers. Why?


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TooTech
March 22, 2005, 04:18 AM
I'm curious why some persons who are selling a gun insist that the transfer be from one FFL to another FFL, before the gun is transferred to the ultimate buyer.

The law is clear that the unlicensed seller only has to ship to an FFL.

So what is the benefit to insisting that the gun be shipped by an FFL?

Proof that the gun has been sold?
Certainty that gun will be packaged and shipped properly?
Uncertainty about the law?

...or

Dealer WELFARE program?

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cobb
March 22, 2005, 09:13 AM
It's a dealer thing in my area.

They know what the law is, but want a paper trail as to where the gun came from. One dealer I use alot requires the sender to include at least a copy of the senders picture ID for his records.

GRB
March 22, 2005, 09:19 AM
State law may require such in some locations. The other thing is that it is a way of the dealers helping to line each other's pockets. Any dealer who insists that the sender must ship through an FFL (if not required by local or state regulation or law) is, in my opinion, not worth receiving my money.

cobb
March 22, 2005, 09:28 AM
Glenn, not to be a smart @ss, but you don't ship using UPS or Fedex either, correct. They require over night shipping of handguns, that's not required by local or state regulation or law either.

I really don't think the dealers are doing it to line each others pockets. The way society is today, I think they do it as I said before, to create a paper trail so they can have an origination for the gun. If that gun turns out to be stolen and gets traced back to the receiving FFL, he has paperwork to point it back to the sender or seller of the stolen gun.

Maybe some disagree with it, but it is a CYA thing for the dealers.

GRB
March 22, 2005, 09:40 AM
Oh come on now. I have dealt with paper trails for years, I am a federal agent. The FFL can easily have a paper trail by saving the shipping label that comes with the gun. If the gun was shipped via UPS or another such shipper, then there is a paper trail that can be printed from any computer by running the tracking number. It is not at all necessary to have an FFL holder ship the firearm to generate a valid paper trail that could be later used to prove the gun was shipped to the dealer at the destination end. Anyone can ship it via a carrier like UPS and their will be a paper trail. The dealer can also ask the person receiving the gun for a copy of the auction results, or sale. He also is, I believe, required to do a NICS ceck and fill out other paperwork.

Just a few years ago, it was either GunBroker.com or AuctionArms.com that plainly stated in their on site regulations that any firearm sold through their site had to be shipped from dealer to dealer - no exceptions.They said this was the law. They were wrong and I sent them an email to let them know. I also directed them to the ATF regulations. To my surprise they, in short order, changed their FAQ about how to ship. I don't know if that was due to me alone or to a number of complaints, nor do I know if they ever went back to the old thing. I do know I have explained the same to FFL holders several times and have been told several times that I am wrong, the law is it must go from FFL to FFL. That is pure bull, and as I SEE IT. I think it only goes to line one another's pockets. Sure an FFL holder could be ignorant of the actual requirements, but these are FFL holders who have been shown the regs. So that is my opinion, based upon mny dealings with FFL holders who claim to outright know better than what the BATFE regulations actually state. They give no reason that it is for a paper trail, they say it is required and that is that (at least the ones with whom I have dealt).

By the way, I am not saying they cannot do this. I am saying I will avoid using them. It is their prerogative to only accept shipments from another FFL just as it is UPS's prerogative to make you go overnight air. UPS does that for another reason than just to make money, they do it so the guns are tracked more carefully and so the guns are in their system for a sorter time thereby cutting down chances of theft by UPS employees and cutting their liability. An FFL holder on the other hand, has a sufficient paper trail to show where a gun came from without having it go through an FFL holder on the sending end. You can choose to use UPS or not, just as you can choose to use such an FFL holder or not. I do not deal with those guys (those FFL holders) if I can avoid it.


All the best,
GB

cobb
March 22, 2005, 09:52 AM
BM, never even thought of giving a copy of the bill of sale to the receiving FFL.

Maybe some dealers will chime in as to why.

thatguy
March 22, 2005, 09:56 AM
In my experience most people, including FFL holders, are ignorant regarding the law. Some are just nervous and prefer FFL to FFL transfers to avoid any suspicion.

EghtySx
March 22, 2005, 10:03 AM
I gotta think some of it is due to paranoia. Sad days when we live in fear of the Fed. I think that's how the government likes it though.

Texas Gun Runner
March 22, 2005, 10:55 AM
I am an FFL dealer, and I would like to put in my 2 cents. ANYONE can legally ship a gun, but only an FFL dealer can legally receive a gun that has been shipped. Any dealer that requires that a gun be shipped only from another FFL is paranoid about the ATF auditing their records. As long as I can show where a gun came from, and that I did the proper paperwork before transferring a firearm to a seller (the obligatory 4473 form and related NICS check), I'm covered.

Hkmp5sd
March 22, 2005, 11:28 AM
ANYONE can legally ship a gun, but only an FFL dealer can legally receive a gun that has been shipped.
Not true. Guns may be shipped by nonlicensees if they do not cross state lines. A nonlicensee may ship a firearm to himself even in another state and
"c/o" someone else. This is commonly done to prevent having to transport guns on hunting trips.

The gun must only be shipped to an FFL if the gun is going to be transferred to another person and that person lives in a state other than the seller.

SWMAN
March 22, 2005, 02:35 PM
I use a FFL whenever I transfer a gun as he has the shipping route down and only charges me a $15.00 fee to do it all. :)

Graystar
March 22, 2005, 02:44 PM
as I said before, to create a paper trail so they can have an origination for the gun.
That is why NYS dealers can only receive out-of-state firearms from FFLs. NYS law requires dealers to record the authority under which a firearm was possess by the transferor. NYS only recognizes NYS handgun licenses and FFLs as having proper authority to possess firearms. So a NYS FFL will never accept a firearm from an out-of-state source who’s authority isn’t recognized by NYS.

It's silly, but it's the regs.

Stratford Holdings
March 22, 2005, 02:52 PM
I've been doing FFL to FFL recently since I didn't know any better. It was about a month ago that I learned that you can do individual to FFL. Then again, I don't mind patronizing my local FFL as they get me good deals on other fine guns.

But it all makes sense. As long as you go through one FFL, it should be all good.

Standing Wolf
March 22, 2005, 06:36 PM
I've never seen any of that folderol in the Second Amendment!

Bear Gulch
March 22, 2005, 06:42 PM
Because it's not there Standing Wolf. Once again to build a successful governemnt agenciy and to continue its increase, it must have a code of regulations that are complex and grow each year.

A simple law such as, "All law abiding adults may own and bear firearms in such manner as they deem necessary", would not support a burgeoning beaurocracy.

GRB
March 22, 2005, 06:47 PM
That is why NYS dealers can only receive out-of-state firearms from FFLs. NYS law requires dealers to record the authority under which a firearm was possess by the transferor. NYS only recognizes NYS handgun licenses and FFLs as having proper authority to possess firearms. So a NYS FFL will never accept a firearm from an out-of-state source who’s authority isn’t recognized by NYS.You are confusing me big time. Are you saying NYS only recognizes FFL holders and NYS Handgun licensees as being legal to possess firearms. That has got to be incorrect. What about the tens of thousnads of people in NYS who own rifles? Are they all without proper authority. Are you talking firearms in general or only handguns. Furthermore any manufacturer or gunsmith can ship a firearm directly to someone after repair, and I am fairly certain this hold true even in NY unless the pistol license division of the NCPD is totally incorrect.In addition a C&R holder in NY can receive firearms directly according to information I recently received and, a C&R is certainly not an FFL. Then again this is all state law, and of course NY is usually different from the great majority of states being the nest of liberal pinko types of exceptions of which it mostly is made.

Graystar
March 22, 2005, 08:01 PM
You are confusing me big time.No prob...I'll clarify.
Are you saying NYS only recognizes FFL holders and NYS Handgun licensees as being legal to possess firearms. That has got to be incorrect. What about the tens of thousnads of people in NYS who own rifles?Yes, but you have to remember that NYS law does not include rifles in its definition of "firearm."
Furthermore any manufacturer or gunsmith can ship a firearm directly to someone after repair, and I am fairly certain this hold true even in NY.That is correct. However, you first have to get the firearm to the manufacturer. You can't send a gun to be repaired unless you get permission from the state because the law has no provision for the firearm to out of a licensee’s possession. The only instance in which a firearm can be out of your possession is when you loan it to another licensee while at a range. It's the only instance and it is explicitly stated in the law.
In addition a C&R holder in NY can receive firearms directly according to information I recently received and, a C&R is certainly not an FFL.Unfortunately I do not know how NYS regs apply to C&R holders, so I can't speak to that.

50 Freak
March 22, 2005, 08:53 PM
Wow, and I though Kali was anal about gun laws. You NYers are sure giving us Kali people a run for our money.

Jim K
March 22, 2005, 10:11 PM
Want something really convoluted? MD does not recognize ANY FFL when it comes to handguns and "assault rifles", termed "regulated firearms", and the state has its own regulated firearms dealers license. So the only people authorized to "import" those guns into MD are holders of the state license.

To make things really complicated, the state does not recognize a Collectors FFL, either. It is not illegal for the holder of a Collectors (C&R) FFL to receive a regulated firearm from out of state, but it has not been "officially imported" and cannot be sold in the state, even to a state-licensed dealer. To be sold in the state, it must be sent back out of state, then re-imported by a state licensed dealer.

Jim

EOD Guy
March 23, 2005, 12:24 PM
In addition a C&R holder in NY can receive firearms directly according to information I recently received and, a C&R is certainly not an FFL.

A C&R certainly is an FFL, specifically a Type 03 FFL.

cgv69
March 23, 2005, 12:46 PM
Sadly, a lot of FFL's do not know the law as well as you would think they would and will not accept a transfer from a non-FFL.

I have also noticed a lot of non-FFL sellers insist on receiving a signed copy of your dealers FFL before shipping. There is no legal requirement for this either and many FFL's (mine included) will not supply a copy of their FFL to a non-FFL.

If a non-FFL wants to make sure they are shipping to an FFL, go to the BATF's web site. They have a searchable online DB listing all currently issued FFL's and it does include the business\persons name as well as the address listed on the FFL. As long as you ship to that person at that address, you are covered.

GRB
March 23, 2005, 01:30 PM
A C&R certainly is an FFL, specifically a Type 03 FFL Yes it is and I stand corrected. I miswrote when I said that, what I should have said was a C&Ris not what is typically referred to in the vernacular as an FFL, the type 01 dealer's license. That is what happensd when I am in a hurry.

What I would stress about shipping to the holder of a C&R is that you can only ship C&R firearms directly to them unless they also hold some other form of FFL. So in the great majority of cases and, apparently in the general overall context of this thread, I guess I thought that was understood in context but, I do realize I should word things more precisely when talking about firearms. As a curiosity, there are at least 9 types of FFLs available.

All the best,
GB

Graystar
March 23, 2005, 01:40 PM
Sadly, a lot of FFL's do not know the law as well as you would think they would and will not accept a transfer from a non-FFL.I think they DO know the law and that there are additional state-imposed requirements that are simply not known to those who don’t own and operate a gun shop in that particular state.

EOD Guy
March 23, 2005, 01:46 PM
What I would stress about shipping to the holder of a C&R is that you can only ship C&R firearms directly to them unless they also hold some other form of FFL.

?????

Not true. as far as the Federal government is concerned C&R firearms can be shipped directly to a holder of a C&R FFL. No other type of FFL is needed.
I hold a Type 03 (C&R) FFL and I have had many C&R firearms shipped directly to me.

State laws may restrict the activities of C&R FFL holders and that may be what you are referring to, being from NY.


Edited to add: It appears that I misinterpreted the statement. See below.

Infidel
March 23, 2005, 01:55 PM
My interpretation of Mr. Bartley's post was that "only C & R firearms can be shipped directly to a C&R FFL licensee." That is, he was reiterating that a C&R license does not authorize the licensee to receive any firearms not classified as C&R.

Maybe read his post again, carefully?

DigMe
March 23, 2005, 02:03 PM
This irks me to no end when I want to have someone receive a transfer for me. I've argued with gun dealers before who SWORE that it had to come from another FFL and invariably they just get mad and don't want to have anything else to do with me. It's BS and it can often increase your cost to ship fairly drastically.

I DO think a lot of dealers just don't know the law. It's very clear what the law is on the ATF website and Texas has no other laws regarding such. If a texas FFL dealer says the law requires that it must come from an FFL then he's either misinformed or lying.

I've heard of ATF agents actually telling gun store owners that it must come from another FFL but that is clearly a contradiction of the stated law. That irks me even more because these guys should know the law more than anyone...certainly more than me! :rolleyes:

brad cook

EOD Guy
March 23, 2005, 02:23 PM
You appear to be correct. I can see how his statement could be read that way and that it was probably his intent.

GRB
March 23, 2005, 02:35 PM
yep that is what I meant, which is basically that under authority granted bya C&R, a C&R holder can only receive C&R firearms. He would need another type of license, such as a dealer's license, to recieive non C&R modern firearms.

GRB
March 23, 2005, 02:38 PM
By the way, for those who have not used it before, BATFE has a pretty good website that addresses almost all of these issues sonewhere. So if you get someone not in the know you can direct them to the website for a speedy review of the regs. The thing is sometimes the way they write things leaves it open to interpretation, then you need to contact them by mail - not email but by snail mail for a definitive answer or, I think they also answer questions by telephone - but I do like some paper when it comes to he said, she said kind of things.

All the best, Glenn B

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