[Minute_Of_Torso]

The FBI HRT adopted the Springfield Armory TRP-PRO 1911A1.
LAPD SWAT adopted the Kimber LAPD SWAT II (Kimber Custom II) 1911A1.

I don't follow what LEO's carry, too much, but I do notice that the vast majority of our local police (city, county, and state) carry mostly Glocks (mostly G22's) and it seems that a lot of other police departments are using the Glocks, SiGs, or the HK's in .40.

Besides the eternal caliber preference debate (9mm vs. .45 and/or .40 vs. .45) what factors caused the FBI and LAPD SWAT to buck the law enforcement trend of smaller/faster caliber and higher capacity handguns?

I would assume that budget issues, durability, accuracy, maintenance & repair, and reliability issues weighed heavilly in the decision but did these weigh heavier than the caliber issue?

Thanks for any info.

[Spark]

It's because they have more training, better budgets, and a differant mission where the sidearm is a backup, not primary weapon. Differant tool for a differant job. Anyhow, who cares what the cops use?

[Archer]

what factors caused the FBI and LAPD SWAT to buck the law enforcement trend of smaller/faster caliber and higher capacity handguns?

Two completely separate issues.

FBI wrote the request for proposal for what turned out to be the Springfield Professional based heavily upon accuracy and reliability with cost nearly ignored. Plenty of articles and discussion on the subject. Quoting from one: “After the Branch Davidian incident in Waco, Texas (1993), the Heymann Report recommended that the SWAT tactical elements become standardized throughout the FBI. Based upon the Heymann recommendation, the SWAT Training Unit began to develop specifications to standardize all SWAT team pistols. It was determined that accuracy would be the number one factor in developing a SWAT pistol.” (Emphasis is in the original FBI report.)


Bottom line, FBI bought a no-holds-barred custom combat 1911 with 1.5 inch accuracy, bulletproof reliability, and a few racegun features (what's a SWAT guy REALLY need with a mag funnel ?), and paid accordingly (around $1700 cost per unit to the Bureau).

LAPD SWAT had BUDGET as a major consideration. You cannot compare the Kimber to the Springfield FBI pistol and have it be a fair match with respect to the Kimber. LAPD supposedly paid around $600/unit which is a darn good price.

I have a Professional model and like it a good deal.


As for the specific reason for the .45acp over the 9 and .40 ?

Maybe F=ma might be enough of an answer. The FBI supposedly won't say. However, in a year 2000 American Handgunner article, Cameron Hopkins wrote:

An informed source, who spoke on condition of anonymity, said, “The decision was reached that in the hands of an average police officer, a single-action pistol may not be the safest tool. But if you take a guy who is, by his job definition, a shooter, who’s to be out in a shooting situation, when they gave these guys a DA pistol, they just didn’t shoot as well. You can shoot far more proficiently with a single-action pistol. The guns that these guys shot the best was—guess what?— the 1911 pistol.”

While I'm not a fan of "anonymous sources" that does make sense.

[Admiral Thrawn]

The FBI's choice of the Springfield 1911-A1 Professional Model raised the question in my head of durability and reliability.

With those two factors in mind, I assume that this pistol was chosen for use in urban environments, and that for prolonged use in very harsh conditions, such as in military service, a Glock / H&K Mark 23 would be preferable.

Anyone have thoughts on this?

Thanks in advance.

[Tamara]

With those two factors in mind, I assume that this pistol was chosen for use in urban environments, and that for prolonged use in very harsh conditions, such as in military service, a Glock / H&K Mark 23 would be preferable.

Oh, for sure! The 1911 is a target pistol and would never hold up to the mud of the trenches in the Meuse-Argonne or the snow and ice of the Chosin Reservoir.



;)

[Soap]

Tam,

lol :p

[Sean Smith]

Just to echo Tam's obvious point, people who rave about the durability of Glocks vs "fragile" 1911s obviously haven't detail stripped either one and compared the internal components. A good 1911 is full of fairly massive machined parts made from heat-treated steel. A Glock is full of flimsier stampings and plastic.

Glocks hold up really well, don't get me wrong. But what people overlook in all those Glock torture tests is that they have a habit of breaking trigger mechanisms at very high round counts (as the FBI discovered).

[Correia]

The last issue of SWAT had a great article on this very subject focusing on Tacoma PD.

[El Tejon]

All guns break, just buy more copies. "Honey, forget about the new carpet. Some guy on the Internet told me to buy another _____.":)

The 1911 was never banished entirely; it was present through the US. LA SWAT has long carried the 1911. The change in the high profile agencies (note only certain segments) such as the FBI represents a change in the FTU influenced by modern training techniques.

Once the change manifests itself in the high profile agencies, it will invariably ripple throughout LE. "If it's good enough for the FBI, then . . ."

[DMK]

The thing that I've always wondered is isn't capacity an issue?

A 7 round single stack .45 was high tech in WWII, but there are quality higher capacity 45s now. :confused:

[sanchezero]

The thing that I've always wondered is isn't capacity an issue?

Again, you're back to the intended use of the pistol. It's not a SWAT guy's primary weapon.

When they dump 30rnds outta their longgun and need to go quick to a gun they can shoot accurately, they seem to prefer the mmmmtasty trigger of the 1911 to put those few extra holes where they need 'em.

Some agency, maybe FBIs HRT, ordered a shload of paraords for their capacity but apparently couldn't keep 'em running.

[9mmepiphany]

capacity of a handgun is seldom a consideration in a LE spec ops unit...having said that, our department SED teams just converted from the sig 220 .45 (7rds) to the sig 226 .40 (12rds)

the 1911 has always been questionable as a general issue weapon un LE as it requires more committment to training then many officers are willing to expend. this is not a "knock", just an observation. spec ops units spend many magnitudes of time training compared to the line officers and usually have a different comittment as well

[Handy]

A 1911 is a good offensive weapon-if you know you'll be shot at, it's a good one for accurately shooting back. Swat stuff, IPSC.

A DA gun is a good reactive weapon. When a broken tail light becomes a gun battle its better to have a gun and trigger that require the minimum manipulation and least positive grip to begin returning fire. Regular cops and CCW holders are better off with a reactive gun.

[Quartus]

it requires more committment to training then many officers are willing to expend.


MAJOR understatement!



And a clue to why what cops carry is not directly applicable to what your average Gun Nut Joe (or Joan) should carry.

[DeltaElite]

I would carry my Delta as a duty weapon in a heartbeat, of course having a major caliber like the 10mm is a good thing also.
I would carry a high quality 1911 in a heartbeat, in 45acp or 38 Super.
I will leave the sub calibers to other folks.
I have to carry the Glock, but not in 10mm. :( :(

Alot of cops still carry 1911's, just ask Clem. :D

[Tamara]

Regular cops and CCW holders are better off with a reactive gun.

That's what I like about your posts; not an "IMHO" in sight... ;)

(Is a P7 a reactive gun?)

[Handy]

And what do I enjoy about your posts, Tamara? I like that you always confine yourself to put downs and personal digs, IMHO.


Since you asked, firing a P7 involves nothing more than squeezing your fingers. As long as you have one finger on the trigger and at least one other below the guard and apply DA type trigger pressure, it'll fire, IMHO.

Here's a test: Will you be able to fire the duty weapon if, during a bad draw, your thumb ends up very low or on the wrong side of the grip? A revolver, DA auto, Glock and P7 all will (IMHO). The 1911 may have an issue with either the grip safety or finding and deactivating the safety, IMHO. Training is of course helpful, but we are talking about drawing while being knocked down.



Going back to your original comment, I don't really understand the need to state that something is an opinion in a thread requesting opinions, in my humble opinion. But that's just my opinion.

Is there :) requirement as well? I am :confused: about that and might be making people :mad: when I write something that's supposed to be :D and leave out the ;). It can be so :banghead: trying to please everyone. (IMHO)

[Quartus]

I dunno, maybe I'm a little slow, but....

Was that sarcasm? :confused:



:D

[Tamara]

And what do I enjoy about your posts, Tamara? I like that you always confine yourself to put downs and personal digs, IMHO.

IMHO, there was no such thing in my post. If you think there was, point it out. Quote it.

Here's a test: Will you be able to fire the duty weapon if, during a bad draw, your thumb ends up very low or on the wrong side of the grip? A revolver, DA auto, Glock and P7 all will (IMHO). The 1911 may have an issue with either the grip safety or finding and deactivating the safety, IMHO. Training is of course helpful, but we are talking about drawing while being knocked down.

I'm sorry, but I have to completely disagree, there; the P7 is just as, if not more, dependent on a proper grip from the holster to fire.

PS: "your thumb ends up ... on the wrong side of the grip?" :confused: I am having a difficult time envisioning this, and I am sitting here attempting it with a P7, 1911, and a DA revolver...

I have to honestly ask (and I truly intend no sarcasm in the question) do you think everyone who carries a 1911 is doing so out of nostalgia or the desire to emulate FBI SWAT or Sergeant York?

[El Tejon]

Handy, the answer to your question is (with the 1911) yes it can be done. Excellent point about importance of ground fighting. That's where we'll likely be, train for it.

Tamara, FYI, I carried a 1911 long before the fibbies adopted their version, thus FBI SQUAT copied me.:D FTU and I share the same gunskul masters in the course of our tactical golf vacation, er, I mean Journey to Englightenment.

I think Handy means grasping the 1911 with off hand. Education provides the answer. BTW, I want to emulate McBride, not York. Yeah, Yankees!:D

[Soap]

Handy- Practice will solve all of the problems you are describing. Indexing a grip (in any position) properly comes with practice. Taking off the safety when presented with a threat is reactive if you practice. And if one doesn't train, it doesn't matter how "reactive" one's gun is, since they are not.

[TheFrontRange]

I guess no local PDs or SOs here (B'ham, AL vicinity) directly issue 1911s but I sure see a few of them in duty holsters...most of the departments in this area require an officer to supply their own sidearm, anyway, it appears.

A while back I exchanged emails with a guy I purchased a holster over Ebay from...he was an LEO in Arizona, though I can't remember what city...his PD had been issuing Springfield Armory Mil-Specs.

[Handy]

Proper grip, example two:

Tamara, put your arsenal on the ground, right side up. Now pick each gun up with just the pads of your thumb and fingers without attempting to get your thumb underneath or palm against the stocks. This simulates a bad snatch at the pistol. Attempt to operate the trigger.

As long as you have some purchase on both the back and front of the grip, you'll be able to fire anything, including the P7, that doesn't have a safety to manipulate.

A "proper grip" is always important, but something like a Glock can be operated with the worst possible hold and just a thumb and index finger. A little more effort with a DA trigger. The same effort and the addition of a middle finger with the P7. And then the 1911 takes a fully seated web and the thumb far enough over on the left side. Hence, the 1911 is the LEAST tolerant of a bad hold on the grip.

And as El Tejon aludes, that's just using when using your right hand.



And for a quote, starts with "Oh for sure!" and goes on to cut on Admiral Thrawn for not realizing Kimbers (with brittle MIM safety levers) were actually used at Meuse-Argonne and the Chosin Reservoir! So, apparently, was the match fitted HRT pistol. But, IMHO, neither of those guns would fare too well with a truck parked on them. And I doubt you think so either.

[Handy]

Oops, forgot the :D at the end of that last post.

[Dr.Rob]

Apples and oranges.

The squeeze cocker of the P7 works if you grip it correctly. The grip safety on a 1911 works if you grip it correctly. Neither will fire if not held properly. That's a good thing.

Back on topic, Denver PD allows the Colt 1911, Kimber and Springfield. Most officers who want to carry a 45 try to qualify with a Glock 21, also on the apporved list. They find rather quickly that ANY 45 is a lot of gun to an untrained recruit. Most guys packing 1911's are detectives rather than uniform cops, though you do occasionally see a stainless Colt or 1991A1.

There is something kind of.. menacing about seeing a cocked and locked 1911 or BHP, but in actuality its NO different from a SIG or USP or Beretta carried hammer down. No issue pistol will fire unless YOU make it fire.

I think also with the popularity of the wondernine, be it a CZ or a Glock or whatever, plus agressive marketing to law enforcement (ala Glock) and new calibers, 40, 357 sig, etc, you won't see the 1911 making a huge comeback in the duty-belt crowd. There are guns that are lighter, hold more bullets and require less training than the grand old 1911.

It's still a serious side arm.

[Quartus]

neither of those guns would fair to well

<personal dig>

That's, "fare too well".


</personal dig>


;)

[Handy]

Dr. Rob,

Strawberries and mangos.

The 1911 has a grip safety, AND a manual safety. The grip must be sufficient to disengage both.

[Boats]

I'd rather go on seeing the 1911 used by the "elite" anyways. That way, its use in military/police circles mirrors its use in the rest of the shooting community.:evil:

I don't know that it is an unmitigated bonus to have a weapon be able to be fired with any ol' input on the trigger alone. Manual safeties have undoubtedly saved the lives of many police officers during weapon retention struggles.

The main design aim of safety-less pistols is to save their users from their own sense of panic from their own use of the firearm. :scrutiny: They are even marketed using various euphemisms for "poorly trained." IMHO;) :cool:

Pistols like the BHP and 1911 are the pistols of serious shooters, every other pistol design is either dumbed down for the lowest common denominator or overly complex to achieve a dumbed down result. AGAIN IMHO.:rolleyes:

[Handy]

Safetyless handguns pre-date those with safeties. There must have been alot of handgun related panic in the 19th century.

[Tamara]

I'm still trying to operate my P7 and DA wheelguns with my "thumb on the wrong side of the gun".

Without the web of my thumb against the backstrap to provide something for the cocking lever/DA trigger to work against, 9 times out of 10 it results in the gun popping out of my hand. Heck, with my thumb on the wrong side of the gun, it sometimes fouls the cylinder on DA wheelguns...

With my Professional, at least the meat of my hand makes contact with the memory groove/hump/lump on the grip safety, and the ambi thumb safety lets me get off one round before, presumably, recoil would result in it popping out of my hand.

But, IMHO, neither of those guns would fare too well with a truck parked on them. And I doubt you think so either.

Do you often have trucks parked on your sidearms?



Imagine: El Tejon's been to all thes skuls, studying under Master Ching-Ching Kapow and Sufi Taprakbang, and still insists on carrying an impractical-for-CCW 1911! :eek: ;)

[Boats]

Handy:

Pistols not handguns, but if back in the day one happened to carry the old Walker Colt, "mexican style" the odd mesquite branch getting caught in the trigger wasn't going to set it off because having to manually cock the hammer was the safety on those old SA revos. For about half of the revo heyday, there was no "point and click." There also weren't any marketing geniuses running Conestogas over their products, because their customers weren't that gullible.:scrutiny:

Now, one dare not catch his/her duty holster retention strap in the trigger guard of his or her Glock and expect it not to fire. But hey, that's innovative!!!!:rolleyes:

[Handy]

Do you often have trucks parked on your sidearms?

A comment relating directly to YOUR comment about the relative durability of 1911s. So, are you know saying the durability ISN'T an issue? You certainly took issue when Admiral Thrawn brought up durability.

Verrry slippery.:scrutiny:


And you know darn well I'm not as smart or good with guns as El Tejon! Of course he knows better! What was I, or anyone else who doesn't practice what El Tejon does, thinking? It's really inexcusable!!

Got to get down the with the El Tejon mode.


So who is this El Tejon guy, anyway? Is there an action figure available?



(El Tejon, no offense. I'm really not familiar with your bio, your name has just become strangely involved. Please feel free to insert "Wild Bill" whenever you read your name in the above paragraphs.)

[DeltaElite]

Damn, I never realized how stupid us 1911 users were til I read this thread. :neener:

What an outdated piece of metal, I am so ashamed. :neener:

Oh, ain't the P7 only made in sub calibers anyway? :neener:

[DeltaElite]

So who is this El Tejon guy, anyway? Is there an action figure available?

ROFLMAO :D :D :D

[Boats]

Funny, if the sine non qua of defensive handguns is the ability to hold one's parking space, the XD is every bit the equivalent of the Glock line and the Glock fans should quit denigrating the XD for its lack of a "track record." It now seems that the XD can be parked upon at any track in the world and has seen just about as much combat as any Glock has.;)

[Handy]

Boats,

If you are at all familiar with my pet peaves, you realize I agree about the Glock.

Actually using the safety on a handgun is a product of the latter half of the last century. As you point out, SA revolvers used no safety. Then DA revolvers came out, still no safety. Then SA autos came out, some had safeties, almost none were carried cocked with the safety on, including the 1911.

Cocked and locked carry, in handguns, is one of the newest ways of carrying a sidearm. It was only popularized in the '50s, well after DA triggers for carry were well established. This new carry method is more complicated than any other, but grants the benefit of a very good trigger with little fuss.

The point of all this is, if one is not a pistolero by calling, what is the best way to guarantee an officer will be able to return fire? I seem to be the only one who thinks that the simpler approach (pull trigger) might be better for the largest group of people instead of making the gun more complicated to use and demanding more training because of it.

[Boats]

No Handy I agree with you. Most line cops are such indifferent or wild shots that perhaps the non-serious ones might be best served by a pistol with no safeties coupled to a 22lb trigger pull and limited to about six rounds of capacity with no opportunity for a tactical reload.:D

From the mid-80s on, the stories have been rampant of officers unleashing dozens of shots at fleeing or fighting suspects, mostly with an abysmal hit rate. I remember one incident in Portland Oregon wherein a man with a gun was confronted on a city bus by two officers. The man lept off of the bus and began running across a vacant lot and one of the officers popped off at the fleeing suspect, missing him 18 times with a Glock 17. That scenario is not so isolated if the more recent shooting in NYC of the unarmed Amadou Diallo is any indicator. Then there is the recent Miami incident where a gun was apparently planted on a man shot at 123 or so times and only hit with eight rounds.:scrutiny:

IMHO, many cops should be given the old S&W Model 10 Military & Police and one bullet to carry around in their shirt pocket.;) We might all be safer for it. Mayberry was.

[Handy]

Boats,

Balance your comments with the fact that many highly trained professionals CHOOSE to carry simple, reliable DA autos and use them as well as any 1911 toter.

I have an example of every kind of trigger system conceivable and am a pretty good shot with all (no El Tejon, though). I put DA guns close to the top of my carry list not because I'm a clutz, but because I don't see any disadvantages to the system (yes, I can get a DA gun to hit a 7 yard target). The 1911 has disadvantages that can be OVERCOME, but I don't understand the need to do so, especially with a police force. As I said earlier, the 1911 makes a great deal of sense for SWAT units.


Delta Elite, where did you get the impression that anyone on this string thought 1911 shooters were stupid?

[cratz2]

On one hand (pardon the pun) I completely disagree with the notion that a perfectl textbook grip must be employeed to adequately fire a 1911. When I bought my first Series II Kimber, I shot right handed, wrong handed, upside down, limp wristing (as much as I could after years of NOT doing it), high grip, low grip. They all fired and they all hit the target when I was shooting at a target.

Truth be told, there is no longer a textbook hold for the 1911. There was a grip for the 1911, a higher allowable grip for the 1911A1, higher grips as grip safeties 'advanced' and even higher ones now with the likes of Ed Brown's safety.

I was taught the old WWII GI, single handed hold for the 1911 and that is what I used when I started shooting up until probably 1997 or so. Then I went to a higher hold and is what I instinctively use now. I used to hit my targets with regularity and continue to do so how.

Regardless of what any ill-informed non-shooting board of trustees 'finds', the 1911 platform, with proper training, consistantly allows for faster and more accurate shooting than Glocks, SIGs, Berettas, S&Ws etc... The experience and training is key. Give a guy a gun and 100 rounds of ammo, 4 hours of training and yearly (or less) quals and the Glock probably is the best choice. I still have a serious problem with LEOs carrying pistols with no active safety.

And maybe it's because I've been around 1911s forever but I honestly feel safer around officers with a cocked & locked 1911 than officers with Glocks. If someone grabs an officers 1911, there is still likely going to be that two or three seconds of fiddling with the safeties. With most of the rest, it's grab the gun and 'bang'. Of course, not sure what that says about revolvers...

[Boats]

I am not into balance, sorry. Some people choose to vote for Ralph Nader, some people (Europeans & administrators looking for a deal on next-to-free pistols) choose crunchentickers. There's just no explaining some things.:D

[Skunkabilly]

El Tejon is the man. I rice-paddy bow at the combat boots of his ultimate tacticality

[Wes_Tulsa]

One thing that has never ceased to amaze me is the inability of the vast majority of LEO's (the ones I've personally witnessed) to use their sidearm with any degree of proficiency. Clumsy at best is what usually comes to mind. It is with that I believe most departments/agencies have gone to high capacity DAO auto's with heavy triggers.

The whole thing comes down to a lack of adequate and continuous training with the most important tool in the toolbox. I think a well maintained 1911 can be every bit as reliable in the field as a Glock. While you do have the additional safety to manipulate, an individual can be taught how and when to disengage the safety in such a manner it is a non-issue.

Someone mentioned FBI HRT's use of the Para-Ordnance and why the discontinued their use. It was because of magazine reliability problems.

[Quartus]

Is there an action figure available?

I want one! :D



Handy, it sounds like you are saying that, since your average police officer is a dim-bulb when it comes to guns, that PDs are wise to recognize that fact and select a dumbed down firearm accordingly.


Hmmm. I wish I could disagree with the premise. My problem with the conclusion is that I'm a hopeless purist, and the only RIGHT solution I can see is to require some decent training.

I know, it ain't gonna happen. :(

[Handy]

Quartus,

It sounds like you don't read for content as well as you proof-read.

[Quartus]

:D

[ahenry]

I ain’t got no dog in this fight, but I’ll be damned if I’ve ever come across another one that’s had me laughing this hard. And that includes the Mall Ninja and Pretty Boy threads.



No real point, just wanted to say I’ve enjoyed the banter. I think Handy and Tamara need to argue more often. :D

[DeltaElite]

Nevermind Handy, the thread just seems to be alot of 1911 and cop bashing.
I find it amusing that the 1911 was the army issue gun and all GI's were trained on it, but it is too complex for dumb old cops to use proficiently. :rolleyes:
Maybe I am too sensitive today and just need a hug. ;)
Anyway, I will be going away now.

FWIW, alot of my brethren shouldn't be carrying sharp sticks, but then again neither should most of society, if my trips to the police and public range are any indication of the average proficiency level of gun owners. :D

[Quartus]

Delta, you're looking in the wrong place for hugs!

:D

[Art Eatman]

I will say that a lot of folks sure do hunt boogers, on all these problems of handling a handgun! I keep learning about all manner of things that haven't gone wrong for me a-tall, never!

I came late to the combat style with a 1911, not learning speed from a holster or the Weaver stance until 1980. My previous 35 years or so had been the classic one hand, sight, shoot, enjoy the the view of the hit. With IPSC stuff of that early 1980s era, doing more like what IDPA does today, I added in my own notions of "the unexpected", drawing and firing while walking or running or falling down. Or from the console of a truck, or from a desktop.

Amazingly, that old slabsides always has wound up where it's supposed to be. I just haven't been able to find all these problems, doing just fine with a pinned grip safety and coked and locked.

But folks gotta go with what works for them, not me...

:D, Art

[Handy]

I find it amusing that the 1911 was the army issue gun and all GI's were trained on it, but it is too complex for dumb old cops to use proficiently.

Delta, find me an infantryman who was taught to carry a 1911 cocked and locked by the Army. Then we can talk about it.

DOD standard was Cond. 3. At various times in the guns history soldiers would carry it against regs in Cond. 2. So what does the US military have to do with cocked and locked carry?

[Lofland]

"...I’ll be damned if I’ve ever come across another one that’s had me laughing this hard. And that includes the Mall Ninja and Pretty Boy threads. "

IMNSHO, Tamara and Handy will have to work a LOT harder to get to the Mall Ninja level! [edit: of humor, not weapon skill :-)]

Is the extra training required for the 1911 just ingraining the habit of wiping the safety down when you draw, or is there more to it? I would think the easy trigger and the stabilizing weight of the 1911 would reduce the training time required.

[DeltaElite]

Ya got me Handy, I misspoke and stand corrected. :D

I do agree that most people are better served with a DA first shot weapon, due to their lack of training and proficiency.
My dept just with from a DA/SA weapon to Glocks. I fear even more so for my safety around my co-workers than before.
Negligent discharges will abound and soon.

[Quartus]

Delta, your statements present an interesting conundrum.


[list=1]

Untrained people (alas, too many of whom are LEOs) are better served with a DA weapon.

Your department, having just switched to such a weapon, will soon abound with NDs.
[/list=1]


Rock and a hard place, anyone?

[9mmepiphany]

deltaelite - at least your whole department is changing over. unless things have changed, glock used to require that departments that switched over to the pistol be transitioned/trained by their training staff. their training was excellent and goes a long way toward avoiding common "glock errors".

our department, at one time, approved the glock family as an optional duty weapon. we had required "semi-auto" training class which was somewhat generic. several glock 19 models started showing up in duty holsters (i think the $300 price had somthing to do with it).

the most dangerous place was the "cleaning shack" with more then a few rounds going off as disassembly started with "pulling the trigger" :cuss:

[Handy]

Quartus,

I don't think DeltaElite considers the 5.5# Glock trigger DA, since he specified DA/SA is best, just before. Glock is not DA/SA

[DeltaElite]

I consider Glock to be a single action with no mechanical safety.
The trigger safety is not a safety in the sense of a grip or thumb safety.

I would much preferred seeing my fellow ofcs issued a Walther P99 or Sig. I would gladly carry either one also.

I see many ofcs who are accustomed to the 12lb long pull of the DA/SA that they were trained on, being rather dangerous with the Glock since the transition training is one day with a couple hundred rounds fired. :rolleyes:

I wear my armor to the range, some people make fun of me.
I hope I don't have to show them why I do, because of someone elses mistake.

Wish me luck, hopefully I will come home with the same number of holes that I left with. ;)

[arizona]

Oh, for sure! The 1911 is a target pistol and would never hold up to the mud of the trenches in the Meuse-Argonne or the snow and ice of the Chosin Reser:what:

Tamara

___________________________________________
I believe, if my memory is correct, the 1911 was used and is still used to some extent as a fighting tool by US armed forces...military and otherwise...for decades.

I'll bet you maybe in some mud, snow, or even ice.

Served in a couple of wars too.:rolleyes:

[Boats]

Arizona:

Tam was being sarcastic.

[Handy]

It was particularly funny that she was being sarcastic, considering she WAS referring to a 1911 target pistol (HRT pistol) that probably will not stand up to much mud, snow or ice without locking up.

Grandad's Remington Rand didn't shoot 1.5" groups at 50 yards.

[Quartus]

:rolleyes:

[Tamara]

Have you even handled one of these guns?

Hang on... BRB...

[Tamara]

Picture 1: Before

[Tamara]

Picture 2: During.

[Handy]

A 1911?


Or a new issue War Dept. M1911-A1, just like my Grandfather was issued in '43?

[Tamara]

Picture 3: Also during.

[Tamara]

A 1911?


Or a new issue War Dept. M1911-A1, just like my Grandfather was issued in '43?

No, Handy, one of those HRT target pistols that won't stand up to mud.

[Tamara]

Picture 4: Also also during.

[Tamara]

Picture 5: After.

[Handy]

Oh, a $1700 tightened and tuned FBI HRT 1911 that is "guarantted" to shoot 1.5" at 50 yards! Why no, I don't.


Are you implying that this dirty gun in the picture would have passed the M9 reliability trials with the same performance as the military issue gun 1911-A1 used as benchmark? They put it in mud, sand, ice etc. and the only guns that jammed less were the 226 and 92. Those old guns were more reliable than a Star 30, S&W 9mm, FN BPM, etc.

[Tamara]

There you go.

I took my $2,400 "overly tight" target pistol out, threw it in the mud, stomped on it, stood on it, and then ran 2 mags of ammo through it. Mag one (185gr +P Golden Sabers) ran without a hiccup. Mag two (Georgia Arms softball 200gr semiwadcutters) had an FTF on round two, cleared with a fast tap-rack-bang.

[Tamara]

No, Handy: You said that a "target" HRT 1911 wouldn't stand up to mud. I just proved that it did.

[Handy]

That stuff is mud?

So the last pic is after it was washed?

[Tamara]

Oh, almost forgot: Picture #6 cleaning.

[Tamara]

That stuff is mud?

You know, at times I am reminded of the old phrase: "Arguing on the internet is like running in the Special Olympics..."

I quit, Handy. No, it was chocolate frosting; you've exposed me... :rolleyes:

[arizona]

I'm impressed:D FWIW

[Handy]

Actually, I didn't say that it wouldn't stand up to mud. I said that it wouldn't stand up to all the enviromental conditions that a US military pistol is tested for. That included freezing temps, sticky mud (one part of the M9 trials was redone due to the mud not being sticky enough).

In those trials the failure rate for the 1911-A1 was just a few in several thousand rounds fired. You had one in fourteen rounds fired.

This demonstrates...?


Actually, remembering WAAAAY back to the jibe that started this, Admiral Thrawn opinioned that a tight gun like the HRT pistol may be delicate compared to a Glock. So a fair test for that would be to drop your gun on concrete and see if it cycles with the match bushing dinged or a tightened frame rail banged a bit. A military gun would, because the bushing and rails have plenty of clearance.

[gumshoe4]

:D :D :D

But incidentally, where did we get the idea that grip was not important with Glocks? Glocks are very suspectible to misfeed when they are limp-wristed, because there's already not much weight reciprocating there. In my last agency, we carried Glock 22s. They were good firearms, but investigators occasionally sufferred misfeeds with the guns towards the end of the range session when they were fatigued and started limp-wristing the guns. I never did overcome that problem with the Glock 27 I owned at the time.

I disagree with the theory that grip is not a particularly important factor in getting the gun to go off when the gun is a Glock.

Bob
TFL# 8032

[Handy]

Yeah, the washing picture helped. It wasn't clear that spring5 was after it was washed.


I don't think our friends in the Special Olympics would have appreciated the implications of your remark.

[Steve Smith]

Note to self: Don't buy a gun from Tamara.

[Handy]

I was thinking the same thing, but I didn't get the feeling she would be big on constructive criticism right now.

[DeltaElite]

Why on Earth would you do that to your own gun Tamara? :scrutiny:

FWIW, I find Glocks to be more reliable than 1911's of the same dollar value.
I prefer 1911's, but I carry Glocks due to dept edict.

[Handy]

Anybody but Tamara and I have an opinion on the battlefield reliability of tighter-than-issue 1911s?

I have my humble opinion and would like to hear someone else's.

[Sean Smith]

Handy, you don't have a humble opinion about anything.

But it is good that you are here to be the herald of hyper-sensitivity and political correctness.

Actually, I didn't say that it wouldn't stand up to mud.

And to quote you: "...will not stand up to much mud..."

:)

[Handy]

"...will not stand up to much mud, snow or ice..."

is the full quote. Meaning, not JUST mud, but other stuff, too.


Sean, do you work for a politician?

[DeltaElite]

Here ya go Handy.

I think a precision 1911 would be as reliable or more reliable than a lesser 1911.
1911's are finicky in my experience, very finicky.
I guess I don't know, due to lack of experience with high end 1911's.
As I have stated before, I believe there are more reliable platforms out there, such as my Glocks.

My answer is as clear as the mud on Tamaras 1911.

[12-34hom]

I have a Para P-14ltd that accurate and reliable, never been on any "battlefield" with it, but trust it for duty carry. Changing the sites and mag springs are the only modifications i've done to it.

Does that count?

Had a Glock model 20, had quite a few FTF with that weapon.

Hopefully my D.W. "Razorback" will be here by the end of March.

A 1911 style weapon in 10mm.

Call me old fashioned, i want a manual saftey on every gun i own & shoot.

The design & Feel of 1911 style weapons lends itself to the inherient accuracy of this weapon.

12-34hom.

[Tamara]

Meaning, not JUST mud, but other stuff, too.

Sorry, not a lot of snow or ice in E.TN in late March. I thought we'd take that as a given, but maybe it's harsher than mud.

It wasn't clear that spring5 was after it was washed.

No, "spring5" was before it was washed but after it was shot. (The teflon finish tends to fling crap off while firing.)

Sean, do you work for a politician?

So, youre denying you said "would not stand up to much mud"?

Look, you made statements about a gun you have no experience with. I took that gun out and refuted those statements. Are you changing your statements, or retracting them?

[Skunkabilly]

Tamara :what: :eek: How can you...[speechress]

Tamara's a professional...it says so on her gun! :D

[Art Eatman]

ROFL! I'd say the lady did indeed win her point, as well as game, set and match!

:D :D :D

Art

[Handy]

The full quote being:

It was particularly funny that she was being sarcastic, considering she WAS referring to a 1911 target pistol (HRT pistol) that probably will not stand up to much mud, snow or ice without locking up.

I understand from English class that "or" implies a choice of any single item, but the intent was to be inclusive of all three items without implying that the snow, ice and mud had to be used at the same time.

That is, that a good military 1911 would have sufficient clearance for ANY of those conditions, not just the "mud" in the partial quote.


Tamara, I thank you for your 14 round proof of the mud resistance of the HRT and all that is implied by the test.

So, why do you think the military guns have all that extra clearance? You've more than demonstrated that it is unnecessary and likely contributes little to accuracy.

[rennaissancemann]

As a rule, good military 1911's and military weapons in general, do not have sufficient clearance for any significant quantity of foreign matter. The design of military weapons does make allowances for unburned powder that accumulates when the weapon cannot be cleaned after each use and the dirt, mud, snow, etc. that enters the weapon through it's ejection port.

McBride in "A Rifleman Went to War" describes how the members of his machinegun section carried their pistols in the small of the back to protect them from the mud of the trenches.

Guns break and jam Handy, usually when you need them most.

Relax, take a deep breath, make yourself a cup of your favorite decaf beverage...

[Dr.Rob]

Tam, it proves you can't trust target wadcutters ina dirty gun.. but hey we ALL know that right? (Heck my 1950's Commander that went to Korea will hiccup on wadcutters if you shoot a three hundred of them in a row without a wipe-down)

Handy, I'd have to agree in PRINCIPLE that the worst thing to do to a 1911 is "tighten" it up. Those loose tolerances let sand, water, mud, etc OUT of the mechanism. Colt Gold Cups are notorious for being 'overtight'. I think Tam is trying (and convincingly so) to explain, the HRT pistol ain't your daddy's Gold Cup. For the record I can't imagine intentionally burying my pretty pony in a mudbog to make my point.

And like Art, whenI shoot IDPA I use a single action (FEG Hi-Power or a 1911), wiping the safety off as you present is something you have to be taught, but once you learn it, its like riding a bike, it's just a natural movement. You have another safety while doing this called keeping your finger out of the trigger guard. That goes for revolvers, glocks or your shotgun.

Rather than issue a glock/Sig/SW auto, why not just issue revolvers?

[Quartus]

I understand from English class that "or" implies a choice of any single item, but the intent was to be inclusive of all three items without implying that the snow, ice and mud had to be used at the same time.


Positively Klintonian! :what:

[El Tejon]

The El Tejon "action figure." Let's see, it really wouldn't involve action, maybe inaction--sitting behind a desk, talking on the phone, rubbing head while person in county blues tells you "there CAN'T be any witnesses", staring out window counting days until in Texas, bleating for secretary to bring in file or salvage an e-mail, pleading with prosecutors and people in black dresses, et al. It would have to be untall and unlanky, that way you could haul it around to all the usual haunts--Starbuck's, court, the office and the treadmill at the gym where you can use the mirror to see the 7 o'clock Turbo Kick class.

If you want to know about high end 1911s and gunk, I have used both Wilson CQBs and Les Baer TRS at my tactical golf vacations without cleaning them, did lube them in the mornings. They ran just fine. Have a buddy who did some thing with a Les Baer SRP (switch off with another 1911).

For some reason (prior militree service or rumors therein), a lot of people think a 1911 has to be a rattletrap to run. Not so. It's about the machining, which is about the Benjamins, not the bling-bling.

When I decided to go with them, I took them to my gun club here and coated with with river clay. They ran just fine, however lots of modern pistols can do that now. I did it to a Crock and it was just fine. I imagine lots of other pistols will do the same.

However, all guns break. Plan on it and you won't have trouble. As Uncle Jeff is fond of saying, don't let the sun set on a dirty gun.

:)

[DeltaElite]

Indeed all guns do break.
That's why I carry at least two at a time, no matter the manufacturer. :D

[Sean Smith]

I understand from English class that "or" implies a choice of any single item, but the intent was to be inclusive of all three items without implying that the snow, ice and mud had to be used at the same time.

Good evasion, Handy. You get a candy. :D

I thought your statment was pretty clear, what with the "or" and all. Darn Standard American English!

:neener:

[Sean Smith]

On to Handy's comment, injected ex post facto, concerning tightness and reliability in general.

Historically, guns made with very tight clearances between parts tend to have reliability problems in extreme combat zone filth. I belive that Lugers had this problem in World War I.

However, bear in mind that those 1911s used in World War I were *NOT* the sloppy rattletraps people shot in 1979. They weren't, in fact, particularly loose at all. They were made with reasonable clearances between parts, where appropriate. Just juding subjectively, the guns didn't start loosening up from the factory alot until World War II, and of course over decades of use they were shot to pieces and re-built over and over again.

You start making things too tight, and fine grit can sieze everything up. Make it too loose, and accuracy will EVENTUALLY crap out... but slide-to-frame fit isn't a big factor here. Barrel quality and barrel-to-slide and barrel-to-bushing fit are what is vital for 1911 accuracy. At extreme looseness, reliability starts to crap out as you loose mechanical repeatability shot over shot.

How relevant to the topic at hand that is (LEO use of the 1911), I dunno. You can get a 1911 pretty tight and still tolerate quite a bit of filth (see Tam's gun for details). Or you can make a gun pretty loose in most places and shoot into 1.5" at 25 yards.

[Handy]

Well it's settled then.

EVERYONE should be carrying cocked and locked 1911s with tightly fitted parts and MIM internals, just as some SWAT teams do.

1. Tightly fitted 1911s are as reliable in all conditions as ANY other combat gun.

2. The Kimber product is not "delicate", it is actually more robust than a Glock or similar.

3. DA triggers contribute to sloth. The 1911 two step is superior because it requires more training and is grab proof. The safety could not possibly prevent the officer from firing their weapon in any circumstance.


That just about sums up everything I've been wrong about. Thanks for the debate.

[Sean Smith]

2. The Kimber product is not "delicate", it is actually more robust than a Glock or similar.

Who said that? Not *I*. I compared a "good" 1911 to a Glock. I consider the MIM parts that populate a Kimber cheesey. Since I was the one who compared good 1911s to Glocks:

A good 1911 is full of fairly massive machined parts made from heat-treated steel. A Glock is full of flimsier stampings and plastic.

Glocks hold up really well, don't get me wrong. But what people overlook in all those Glock torture tests is that they have a habit of breaking trigger mechanisms at very high round counts (as the FBI discovered).

Take the guns apart. Look at the internal components. Read up on the FBI's Glock trials. Tell me I'm wrong. Heck, I defy you to find a mention of "Kimber" in my topic about 1911 vs Glock durability at all.

:rolleyes:

[Handy]

Sean,

The Kimber was one of only two LE issued 1911's cited in the last 4 pages. Of the two choices, one at $650 and the other $1700, which would your PD likely end up with?


The Glock "trigger component failure" you're speaking of is likely not any of those stamped parts you take great issue with: It's the little trigger spring that is well known to break. The NY trigger eliminates this part and makes the Glock trigger a little more stumble proof.

[VaughnT]

Just to clarify, Tamara is the sexiest woman on earth. Right? Did you guys see that booted foot in the stompin' pic? Witty and pretty, a dangerous combination - pistol or not.

[Al Thompson]

The DEA frisbee tests got Glocks dropped for poor performance. Is the Glock bad? Nope.

But when your picking fly poop out of pepper, it makes for great internet reading. :rolleyes:

Sean, also remember that the last 1911s purchased in bulk by the military date from 1945. Once upon a time I was the proud "owner" of 60 or so. Once we started crushing bad magazines, reliability was near 100%, accuracy ranged from darn good to "minute of acre".. Some were simply worn and needed some TLC.

[Archer]

Tamara I still can't believe you did that to your Pro. :eek:

I bet the toothbrush got a workout on the 20-lpi when that little episode was completed ;)

Mine did work fine when frozen to -30 F, (Testing different greases).

With a thick layer of frost on the pistol, BTW. I think that's a form of ice.

As for snow, no problem either.

IMHO, of course :D


EDIT:

I wish to apologize to moderator Al Thompson who pointed out a comment I made here was inappropriately critical of a fellow poster.

I apologize for my breach of High Road etiquette.

[Wild Bill]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So who is this El Tejon guy, anyway? Is there an action figure available?

(El Tejon, no offense. I'm really not familiar with your bio, your name has just become strangely involved. Please feel free to insert "Wild Bill" whenever you read your name in the above paragraphs.) ... Handy
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

:what:

Somebody already said it well, I "ain't got no dog in this fight". (But if somebodys holding the bets, my money's on Tamara.)

Haven't posted on this thread. Why you draggin' my name in the mud there boy?:scrutiny: