(OH) Gun carry law challenged


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Drizzt
March 27, 2005, 12:11 AM
Gun carry law challenged

By RON SELAK JR. Tribune Chronicle

WARREN - A 62-year-old Howland man arrested while holstering a military-style pistol with Kevlar penetrating bullets is scheduled to make his first court appearance this morning.

Jerry Joseph of Valacamp Avenue S.E. is accused of violating Ohio's conceal and carry law during a traffic stop Monday when police say he failed to tell police he had the weapon concealed while he was in a motor vehicle.

Joseph is scheduled to be arraigned this morning in Warren Municipal Court on charges of carrying a concealed weapon and improperly handling a firearm in a motor vehicle. He is free on $5,500 bond.

Joseph, who has a permit to carry a concealed weapon in Ohio, said he believes he didn't do anything wrong.

Detective Jeff Hoolihan said that after taking Joseph's passenger, William Cindea of Stiles Road N.W. into custody for warrants charging assault and drug possession during the West Market Street traffic stop, backup officers patted down Joseph and found a semi-automatic pistol with 20 rounds of Kevlar piercing rounds - bullets known as "cop killers.''

Police said carrying the gun - which costs in the neighborhood of $900, was first introduced as a military weapon and has the power to penetrate police protective vests - isn't illegal, but police say Joseph failed to inform officers he was licensed to carry, was carrying the weapon and that he had it hidden beneath his jacket.

Ohio law states that while carrying a weapon in a vehicle, it must be in a holster in plain sight, and the carrier must inform police he is licensed and is carrying the weapon. Carriers also can have the gun in a locked glove box or locked box located in plain sight, and must provide their license and a second form of valid identification.

Joseph had a permit issued through the Trumbull County Sheriff's Office to carry the weapon. However, police say it has been temporarily suspended pending the outcome of the criminal charges.

Joseph said he received his permit in November and purchased the weapon and ammunition shortly thereafter in Austintown because it was something relatively new on the market and "supposed to be state-of-the-art.''

"I've never even fired it yet,'' he said.

Joseph said he doesn't understand what he did wrong, adding he threw his license and gun permit on the top of his vehicle after he was outside the vehicle. He said he told police three to four times he was carrying the weapon and waited to show them because of the heated situation.

"I had the permit,'' Joseph said. "Maybe I didn't think right, but I thought I did everything right.''

Detective Michael Krafcik said, according to state law, Joseph should have removed his coat while driving to keep the weapon in compliance with the plain sight stipulation.

Hoolihan said police are not singling out Joseph, saying having a conceal and carry permit is a privilege much like having a driver's license.

"We're not targeting this man,'' Hoolihan said.

http://www.tribune-chronicle.com/news/story/0325202005_new05gun25.asp

They never said what type of handgun it was, only that it was 'military'.....

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logical
March 27, 2005, 12:38 AM
Ohhhhh...the dreaded double wammy...magic bullets and a military gun.

Parallax
March 27, 2005, 12:44 AM
Kevlar piercing cop killer bullets? Oh noes!!!11

:banghead:

Third_Rail
March 27, 2005, 01:09 AM
I'm going to eventually design/build a pistol that fires some powerful rifle round, name it the "Daisybell" or the "Pretty Princess", paint it pink, etc.

I will then take photographs and make a website and press release on how it is the most dangerous pistol to ever hit the market.

I would like to see news anchors deal with that.


"The Pretty Princess, a cop killer handgun, is shown here... sporting a pink finish. Hey, stop laughing!"


:mad:

SMMAssociates
March 27, 2005, 01:11 AM
Haven't heard much of anything about this case yet - I think it happened a couple of days ago.

While Mr. Joseph may be a lousy test case due to his passenger's "status", this is exactly what all OH CHL's fear....

The weapon could be anything.... The media don't seem to know the difference between a .22 and a .50BMG....

Trumbull County may be a good place to test this, though. (Warren's kind of "Blue", but the rest of the county is fairly rural.)

One bit-o-craziness, of course, is the "In Plain Sight" thing.... If you are ordered out of your vehicle before the Officer(s) can determine that your carry method is correct, and it results in your weapon being covered, tough....

(FWIW, S&W used to make a .30M1 Carbine pistol. I expect those would penetrate Kevlar. The general rule of thumb is than any centerfire rifle round will penetrate the average vest. They are generally rated to protect against "handgun" rounds. The anti's, of course, don't seem to understand this.)

mbs357
March 27, 2005, 01:15 AM
I'm getting the impression that it's a Five SeveN.

SMMAssociates
March 27, 2005, 03:05 AM
The Five-SeveN is my guess, too....

It's about the only concealable weapon of it's type that the press would know about, and would be armed with Brady hype (i.e., lies) to explain it.

For the one guy reading this who's not familiar with the Five-SeveN, it's a fairly ordinary handgun in a new caliber that was apparently designed to be provided to LE and the Military with ammunition that can penetrate body armor, as well as more conventional ammunition choices.

Only "ordinary" ammunition is available for sale to civilians - ammunition that the BATF has specifically reported as not being capable of defeating such armor. The Brady folks neglect to report this part.... :eek:

What we have to worry about is attempts to ban this gun because of the lies about available ammunition, and the obvious extension to all handguns for which kevlar-punching loads can be created. That's pretty much any center-fire round....

(With apologies for any facts I've managed to muck up - the Brady folks, at least, muck the facts up better than I do.... :evil: )

Gifted
March 27, 2005, 03:50 AM
I'm gonna go with the Five-Seven too. 20 rounds of ammo designed to peirce armor. Price range is about right, too.

Greymoor
March 27, 2005, 09:18 AM
When Ohio passed their CCW law I was aghast that you had to have the weapon on your person in plain view when in a motor vehicle. So on my last trip to North Carolina I had to remember to clip the weapon on my belt or seatbelt where it can be seen when I was going thru Ohio. I can't help thinking that someone driving next to me on the highway will call in a "man with a gun" call to the state boys there.

So you stop at a gas station in Ohio you have to step out of the car then re-conceal your weapon. I wonder how many calls that will generate. I can only hope they drop this foolishness from their CCW law soon.

model 649
March 27, 2005, 10:40 AM
Anyone know why this provision was put into their law? Is this something LEO's wanted? Seems odd they would be so different from CPL's in the rest of the semi-free states. Only thing I think it may have an effect on is "road rage". I have no idea what that effect would be exactly, though.
Josh

P95Carry
March 27, 2005, 12:28 PM
"I've never even fired it yet,'' he said. Leaving aside the absurdity of the hype being heaped onto this (and this crazy ''in car'' aspect to the law) - it seems like a very casual approach when not even fired - tested - familiarized, with a carry piece in 4 months! :uhoh:

OH25shooter
March 27, 2005, 12:44 PM
Most of the stupid strange language placed in Ohio's CCW bill is courtesy of the OSP (Ohio State "HIGHWAY" Patrol). :scrutiny: Not the real cops.

SMMAssociates
March 27, 2005, 12:47 PM
Anyone know why this provision was put into their law? Is this something LEO's wanted? Seems odd they would be so different from CPL's in the rest of the semi-free states. Only thing I think it may have an effect on is "road rage". I have no idea what that effect would be exactly, though. 649: It was a poison pill, apparently at the request of the State Patrol.

The Governor had something to do with that, and some term-limited legislators refused to override the veto that would have resulted if this hadn't been included.

My own view is that the right Judge would blow the vehicular carry rules out of the water for more reasons than I have time to type right now, but IAC the legislature is being prodded to deal with this.

We also have the lunacy that says you can't carry in a highway rest area or Turnpike Service Plaza, but you can open carry (at your own risk due to the "man with a gun" issues) in the parking lots or gas pump areas....

Best thing to do is stay away....

Regards,

SMMAssociates
March 27, 2005, 01:12 PM
Most of the stupid strange language placed in Ohio's CCW bill is courtesy of the OSP (Ohio State "HIGHWAY" Patrol). Not the real cops. OH25:

Don't let 'em hear you say that....

Real enough on the roads, too....

(A friend of mine was with OSP until he saw the light. He's a Judge now. Don't ask....)

IAC, I'd blame this on the OSP leadership. The guys in the field may be a little (little?) overzealous, but most of the ones I've met seem to come from areas where you give a kid a Chief's Special to teethe on.

I also blame Blue city PD Brass - neither they nor the OSP leadership want to anger the Democrats, just in case. They don't want to be the reason the spigot gets turned off.

(Another Governor refused to sign a CCW bill because he didn't want to screw up a Federal Judgeship he wanted once he left OH.)

mbs357
March 27, 2005, 01:17 PM
So, he's only had the gun for four months.
And it simply slipped his mind when he was pulled over?
I think that's understandable...but...
>_<

carpettbaggerr
March 27, 2005, 02:18 PM
I can't help thinking that someone driving next to me on the highway will call in a "man with a gun" call to the state boys there. So? That's legal in OH.

Greymoor
March 27, 2005, 02:41 PM
I can't help thinking that someone driving next to me on the highway will call in a "man with a gun" call to the state boys there.

So? That's legal in OH.

Yes it is. However it is how the call comes in that will determine if you travel merrily on you way or have a dozen OHP shoving your face into the ground. I know it may come as a suprise but people with anti-gun bias do not always pass along accurate information. If it's not seen then you can't me picked out for trouble.

It is an ignorant item to put in a CCW law. It needs to be removed along with those who put it in. :)

HighVelocity
March 27, 2005, 02:43 PM
I would not want to be this guy. Even if he prevails in court think about how much time and money it's going to cost him.

SMMAssociates
March 27, 2005, 03:09 PM
Not necessarily germane to Turnpike Service Plazas and highway rest areas, but Open Carry is against the law in some areas of OH.

While the new CHL law (and the State Constitution) pre-empts that, the municipalities don't generally post themselves, and may still make arrests.

Then there's the part that lets a business post it's parking lot. Right.... Not only can't you carry in the business (disregarding the "why shop there?" part), you can't even bring it onto the property....

(Greymoor: Clipped on the seatbelt is a no-no.... "On Your Person" and "In A Holster".... IANAL, and there's no case law, but the law doesn't permit you to leave the gun on the seat, so to speak, should an LEO ask you to get out of the car unless the Officer explicitly orders you to park the gun someplace, it's otherwise a Felony to touch the gun during the stop. It must be in the "steal-me", locked in the glove box, or connected to you. I think you can get tagged if your "cover" covers the gun when you get out - there's been one case that may have gone down that way in/around Chagrin Falls. I also heard - this may be apocryphal - that an Officer would tag an IWB because it didn't show enough of the gun....)

Greymoor
March 27, 2005, 03:57 PM
Hehehe Yah I know that the seat belt is a no-no but reversing a IWB holster to clip to the outside of your pocket is a joke. When you get out of the car it is in full view of god and country. This part of the Ohio law is a mess and I hope they change it.

nico
March 27, 2005, 04:22 PM
So when you're in the car the gun can't be concealed, but when you get out of the car it has to be concealed. . .unless you're getting out because you were pulled over? How the hell can you universally comply with all that crap? If you conceal the gun and then get out, you're in a car with a concealed weapon, but if you get out of the car and then conceal, wouldn't you be guilty of failure to conceal?

Am I completely wrong or is this law full of contradictions?

308win
March 27, 2005, 05:18 PM
So you stop at a gas station in Ohio you have to step out of the car then re-conceal your weapon. I wonder how many calls that will generate. I can only hope they drop this foolishness from their CCW law soon.

The state legislator who was the main proponent of the Ohio CCW is introducing legislation to ammend this provision out of the CCW law. As to why it was in the legislation in the first place - you would have to ask the Ohio Highway Patrol to explain their reasoning. They fought the law to the end and did anything they could to keep Ohio citizens from carrying - all-the-while they lurk behind bridge abutments with radar guns. They are a highway patrol not a state police and they act the part for the most part.

RyanM
March 27, 2005, 06:48 PM
Just a bit off topic;

I'm going to eventually design/build a pistol that fires some powerful rifle round, name it the "Daisybell" or the "Pretty Princess", paint it pink, etc.

I will then take photographs and make a website and press release on how it is the most dangerous pistol to ever hit the market.

If you really do this eventually, make a whole new cartridge for it, too. Otherwise, armor piercing ammo (or just plain old monolithic solids, etc.) in whatever rifle caliber will be banned, because there's a handgun chambered in it. :(

I suggest a .50 BMG or .700 NE case necked down to something insane, like .10 or .12 caliber. Or 0.7mm, then watch them scramble to ban mechanical pencil leads.

Third_Rail
March 27, 2005, 07:20 PM
Oh, I realize that I'll have to make a new round for it... I'm thinking the .50,000 Cutie Pie or similar. :D

Standing Wolf
March 27, 2005, 08:19 PM
Hoolihan said police are not singling out Joseph, saying having a conceal and carry permit is a privilege much like having a driver's license.

One of the reasons I live in Colorado is that we respect the right to keep and bear arms, and don't try to water it down to a privilege.

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