Has anyone gone from a small .38 to a small .380 for primary CCW?

A friend and I had a discussion yesterday about the relative merits of small .380s (PPKs, etc.) and small .38s (J-frames, D-frames). Clearly, each type of gun has its pluses (the small .380s reload faster, carry a bit more ammo, have single-action follow-up shots; the small .38s hit harder, draw faster from a pocket holster, are probably more reliable). But we got to wondering:

Has anyone here changed carry method from a small .38 revolver to a small .380 semiauto? If so, what were the guns in question, the carry loads used, the carry methods used, and the rationale for your change?

Thanks and happy Easter!
erich

Actually I changed from a S&W 638 (38spl) to a Kel-Tec P-11 (9mm). The Kel-Tec is easier for me to conceal, and carries twice as much ammo. I also have a Kel-Tec P-3AT (380acp), but I reserve that weapon for unbearably hot days when I'm wearing shorts and a t-shirt. Nevertheless, I still prefer to carry my Kimber Custom CDP, and will try to carry that gun if I can comfortably conceal it given the weather and my choice of clothes.

My Gov 380 with Rem 102's fits smoother in my Suit Coat jacket pocket then a Detective's Special. Remember, it is about dressing around the gun and not forcing the gun into the dress code. In this case, a Suit and Tie was required, therefore a Jacket, and considering the area, I had to drop to a 380.

I see nothing wrong with changing from a .38 to a .380, considering the ease of carrying reloads and speed of reloading, but have you considered a subcompact 9mm, such as the new Para-Ordnance Hawg 9mm? Granted, it's not as slim as a Walther PPK or PPKS, but it could also be a viable option. :)

They perform comparably in a rough manner. Why not move to a 9?

For in town carry, I hoof a KT P3AT.
I live in a small rural town and really don't see the need to carry anything larger!!

However, everywhere else, gets the G26!!!

I had a S&W 649 .38 (non +P) and went to a Bersa .380 for my "barber-shop-and-library visit" gun i.e Non Big Gun days.

My Glock 30 was/is still my primary piece and now my only piece.

The Bersa went to a friend's sister as her carry gun.

The change was because the older 649 wouldn't take +Ps.

If I ever get another pocket piece (going into Air Force Security Forces, won't be able to CCW much) it'll be a +P capable S&W 642 .38 since the small wheelgun is still superior as a pocket piece (the Bersa was a slim belt gun).

I have not gone directly from a snubby to a 380 auto. I carried a Rossi M677 357 on and off for 3 years. Nothing wrong with the gun. The guy behind the gun could hit anything with it. Traded it off in 2001? and went to a LW Commander for full time carry. I traded for a CZ-83 last summer. That is my secondary and/or lazy-man's carry gun. Heavier than a snubby but just as easy to hide and holds much more ammo. The LW Commander is still my primary CCW gun. Much as I like revolvers as a piece of gun engineering, I prefer autos for carry and self defense.

That being said, I would still like an old school round butt 3" J-frame. I guess I'll never learn.

That is my opinion, your opinion may vary.

ZM

As a matter of fact, I just did!

I carried a Bersa .380 for a year. I talked myself into a S&W snub .38. After a year I sold it and went back to the Bersa.

Here's why:
The Bersa is slimmer, easier to IWB carry.

The Bersa has more bullets.

I found I could shoot the .380 much faster on the draw and subsequent shots.

I shoot the Bersa more accurately, even out to fifty feet, couldn't hit anything with the snub beyond ten feet.

The Bersa is very comfortable to shoot for extended periods, two or three boxes are fun and easy on the hand. The snub started to hurt halfway thru the first box and by the end the cylinder latch and the grip was scuffing my thumb raw. I can't see carrying a gun I can't practice with without aspirin and bandaids.

The Bersa is so easy to clean. The snub has too many holes to clean and in general its a dirty shooting gun. I know that's not real critical but if one dreads the cleaning it discourages shooting it, for me anyway.

The double action trigger with the Bersa was smoother and lighter. The single action action is very nice.

Whether I pickup my P3AT or my S&W 422 is purely a matter of choice to fit whatever clothes I may be wearing. I feel comfortable with either.

Thanks for the info, everyone.

There was never any consideration of my friend or I doing this - I mostly carry a G26, myself - we were just wondering if anyone had and why. 38snapcaps, thank you in particular for your reply. :)

I just did the opposite, going from a P3AT to a M37. Tho mine was apparently more reliable than many who've posted KT problems, it was actually the ammo rather than the platform that made me change. I know neither the .380 or .38 spl. is ideal and I carry my .45 when I am dressed for "belt carry", but I prefer the 125/135/158 gr JHP's and +P capability of the wheelie vs. the 95 gr. .380 I was carrying in the Kel-Tec

I sold one of these:
http://www.taurususa.com/imagesMain/H_85B2.jpg

then bought & began to carry one of these:

http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/review/pix/mustang1.jpg

Actually, my Mustang is a Pocketlite but this is close enough...

I like my Taurus .38 Special - it was accurate for a little snub & I shot it well - but it was just too bulky, & slightly heavy, more me to carry in a deep cover mode. The Mustang slips easily into a pocket and I carry it much more than I did the little Taurus.

Of course, neither one is an ideal carry caliber in my mind. But for those times when a larger weapon is not an option, I like the Pocketlite. Too bad Colt decided to stop production!

I just want to clear something up. The belief that, "the small .38s hit harder," is incorrect. Short barreled .38 revolvers give you no advantage in knockdown power over the average .380. With the longer barrels (4 inches or longer), the .38 is more powerful than the .380.

With that in mind, there are obvious advantages in using the .380 over the .38 snubby. As mentioned there is concealability, faster reloads, more capacity, etc.

I guess I find it amusing that some people will criticise the stopping power of .380s while packing a short barreled .38 that has the same power with lower ammo capacity.

The real question should be:
Considering they share almost the exact same "stopping power", why wouldn't you consider switching from the small .38s to the .380?

Shane you reminded of me something I should add to this discussion:

One day at work I found a bunch of electrical box covers in a dumpster. They were about three inches or so in diameter, even came with a little hole for hanging on a target board. I used them for CCW practice.

Interestingly, from twenty feet or less, a .380 put the same dent in the metal as did a .38. Interestingly a .22lr made the same depth of dent, only not as large in diameter.

Very interesting, 38snapcaps. That sounds like a fun and interesting barnyard ballistics test to try.

I don't mean to talk down the potential power of the .38. Like I said, with 4 inch barrels, the .38 does have more power than the .380. It's just that the short barreled .38 revolvers negate that advantage in potential power. The .38 bullet may weigh more, but it needs barrel length to get good velocity.

Shane, I disagree that short-barrelled .38 spls are the equivalent or less powerful than .380s. I know that Marshall and Sanow proponed your idea in the late '80s, but it just doesn't jibe with the shootings I've seen (I've worked on over 100 cases in which people were killed by handguns). .38 specials, even out of short barrels, seem to penetrate much more effectively and reliably in the shootings I've seen. Makes sense, considering the physics of mass.

Naturally, you should believe whatever you want, but I've actually asked the question that I want to ask in this thread. If you want to start your own thread to ask your own "the real question," feel free to have at it.

Didn't mean to step on your toes, Erich.

For the record, I had no idea that Marshall and Sanow proponed such an idea already. My comments came from personally studying the cartridge energy tables provided by several current manufacturers of self defense ammunition.

(edited to remove comments made because of bruised pride)

I have also when from snub 38 to 380. Mainly my PPK/S or Mustang . Ease of concealment and the fact I shoot the small auto much better than a snub.Are my 2 main reasons for change.

I went the other way. I went from a 9x18 Mak to a 3" barreled S&W M-65 loaded with 158 +P LSWCHP. Granted, the 65 isn't exactly a "snub," but it conceals as well as the Mak did. If I have to wear a holster anyway, I might as well go with a slightly bigger gun. I never could do pocket carry.

With a wide variety of carry pieces resting comfortably in my gun safe, I can say there are certain situations and dress code requirements that will allow me to conceal nothing larger than my AMT DAO Backup in .380. Although I have some slightly smaller carry pieces in .22 LR and .25, the Backup is the smallest I have that is suitable for pocket carry. So I can say there are some times that I will opt to carry .380 as a primary piece rather than a .38.

My comments came from personally studying the cartridge energy tables provided by several current manufacturers of self defense ammunition. Energy tables are all well and good if you enjoy light reading. I stop short of calling it fiction even though a large portion of it is.

Having spent many years in the ammunition business I have studyed factory tables closely. I admit I still read them just as I have for almost 40 years. Only now I know HOW to read them.

Why would any ammunition manufacturer would skew the statistics in their favor? What possible motive could they have?
Ft/lbs on a chart can be interesting reading but in the real world it's almost meaningless. Energy tables are based TOTALLY on bullet weight AND velocity.
They don't take into consideration several VERY important factors such as oh, um, lemme see...

Bullet Diameter

Bullet Shape

Bullet Construction

If wounding capability was based on energy tables (or electrical box covers) we'd all be carrying Glaser Safety Slugs or RBCD.

Based solely on energy tables a 160gr hollow point at 1000fps hits just as hard as a 160gr solid at 1000fps. And it doesn't matter if it's solid lead, solid copper or solidified feline excrement.

There have been several "tables" and "formulas" devised throughout the years that attempt to quantify the ineffable.
The old Taylor Knock-out Formula and the Fuller Power factor are just two that come to mind.
The Taylor K-O is by far the oldest that I know of. It isn't perfect since it was created to compare the solid bullets used in the first half of the 20th Century on dangerous big game. But at least it takes into consideration the diameter of the bullet.


Speaking of TOES...
Here's A Simple Test

From a height of five feet;
Drop a two pound total weight water balloon directly on your big toe.
Drop a two pound total weight glass mason jar full of water directly on your big toe.

Get back with me later on the pain ratio.



Yes the often biased, sometimes skewed energy tables published by the ammo makers make for interesting reading.

But then Michael Moore makes "interesting" movies too.

Feel free to believe either.

Shane, I'm sorry if I came across like a tool. I was having a bad day before lunch.

Actually, I'm sorry I let my ego get the better of me. The fact that I use a CZ83 with Remington GoldenSabers for self defense reveals my bias. :o

Real world examples speak volumes about hard facts. I didn't realize before that you had personal experience in this area.

I might have some knowledge, but I'm not the authority on anything.

Anyway, no hard feelings I hope . . . none on this end. :)

Nope, no hard feelings. I just need to work on developing thicker skin.

Yes, me.
I used to carry a .38 every day for 35 years. The last ten years it was a .38 Chief Special with Remington 125 grains + P.
That carrying was job related. Now that I am retired, I can justify been armed in only a few ocassions.
So my gun now is a AMT back up .380, with the first up the pipe a Winchester Silvertip and the rest ball ammo.
So people will say a "mouse gun" but is better than my 60 years old fists!!!
black bear

Once upon a time I really liked my Ruger SP-101.

Yep, it was as small and light as...

Ok, it was a brick.

The Glock 23 I switched to was roughly the same overall dimensions, and thinner and lighter to boot!

Not to mention a LOT more rounds and reloads much easier, carrying reloads easier too.

The .38 snubbie can be had in a variety of lightweight models but the overall size is still bigger than you might think.

I look at them as "compact" as opposed to "small".

Rather have a .38 than a .380, though.

Shane333 your incorrect. In short barrels the 380 is still weaker than the 38 special. The 38 special has loads that will expand and penetrate close to 12 inches the 380 has none that will do both. In fact almost no 380's will expand from small autos like the Mustang and PPK S. The ones that will will not make it near 12 inches.

The energy figures are close but the 38 has a considerable advantage in momentium since it can use bullets weighing as much as 158 grains. The 9mm is more powerfull than both of course and is more comparable to a mid range 357 mag.

One advantage of 38 revolvers in the pocket gun class is reliability. Personally I have had very poor reliability from blow back pocket autos. They do not share the reliability of their full size locked breach service pistol brothers. While the 38 and 357 snubs do share the same reliability of full size revolvers.
Pat

Yes, and I haven't regretted it.

I have gone back and forth on this for a few years mainly between the sub-caliber Kel-Tecs and the j-frame SW revos. I finally settled on a SW 642. It just works for me.

The .380 is the minimum, but I see the .38 as penetrating better with possible expansion, whereas the .380 may penetrate enough (unless you use ball) and may expand out the shorter barrels.
Yes, the j-frames only hold 5 rounds, but the way I see it, this is my primary carry during the week and I absolutely need it to work no matter what. I know the j-frame will work if fired from a pocket or if jammed against the body of a BG. A semi-auto does not inspire that kind of confidence in me.

Don't get me wrong, I prefer semi-auto's in belt-carry sized weapons, just not in the pocket sized guns.


W

a friend of mine used to carry a j-frame 38 most of the time. One day when at a gas station he was at the back of the store and this skinny,nervous girl came in and started talking realy fast and confusing the clerk during this time to males that came out of the same van and went into the store and spread out. At this time my buddy was thinking oh beans!! I've got 3 possible targets and 5 shots! Lucky for all involved the girl scooped out some change to pre-pay some gas and all 3 people left but this close call turned my buddy off j-frames and pocket guns as a primary.

P.S. one thing to remember though is that a mouse gun beats none at all

I switch back and forth from a seecamp 380 to a mod.38, I mostly carry the mod.38 tho, I can get a better fast grip and draw but I still love the little 380 seecamp.

JIM PHL.. How do you like that Mod. 37 of yours?

If I have the need for a really small carry gun its my Ruger LCP. I sold my snubbies after buying it. The snubs are not appreciably smaller than a G26 or M&P 9C to warrant carrying it. If I can carry the snub I SHOULD be carrying a better pistol. The LCP is WAY smaller and fills my niche as a deeper cover weapon.

Holy Thread revival Batman! :what:

...but since my answer will date back to 1979 or '80, I guess time is unimportant.:cool:

I switched from a Charter Arms Undercover, carried in an ankle holster, loaded with semi-wadcutter or some brand of hollowpoint, (I can't remember details). I never did shoot that gun well, even after using it for several years.

I switched to a Astra Constable .380, carried on my ankle or on my belt, loaded with whatever I could find. That was a terrific gun that I shot very well. It convinced me to go "auto" only. I changed because I was more accurate, faster and had more rounds.

I was persuaded to sell that gun to a friend but I stuck with the .380 in the form of a Beretta 84... a gun I carried for many years.

There is a great commentary on this from Dr. Gary Roberts at the link below, scroll to #15 post


http://www.thehighroad.us/archive/index.php/t-398332.html

Mike

I used to mostly CCW carry a S&W model 60 snubbie 38sp 1 7/8" barrel (SS, not an airweight) 5 shooter... and sometimes still do, OWB

I mostly now carry a Colt government model 380acp, all steel ~23 oz, 7 shot mag, locked breech, 3 3/4" barrel
slimmer, trimmer, overall more compact than snubbie, super easy IWB carry, points well, no muzzle flip, not prone to limp wristing the way some short/light autos can be
points and shoots more naturally for me than the snubbie, stays better on target, access just as quick, shoots at least as quick, and carries far better, very reliable, extra rounds

that aside, I don't do magnum loads out of 2" barrels (never did), don't have faith in expansion of either 38sp out of 2" barrels or 380acp rounds out of 4" barrels, so I load any off-the-shelf commonly found FMJ in either

current trend conventional wisdom seems to put more faith in momentum vs. energy
I am not inclined to have unbounded faith in either, but prone to favor energy over momentum
but have never yet seen anyone change their mind about such "knockdown power", "penetration", etc. arguments anyway; people pick whatever 'formula' favors their pre-determined choice, me too

oddly enough, I always have favored full size all steel revolvers over full size all steel autos for home and range... but CCW is a whole other thing

have also been known to drop a Ruger LCP in pocket for extra casual mode, but don't pretend to myself that it is what it ain't... just a convenience 7-shot derringer, very limited capability, both it and me in combination

Wow. I originated this thread back when the Republicans still controlled the House, Senate, and presidency. :) And now I have actually gone from small .38s to small .380s, at least for some uses.

I used to consider an airweight J-frame my minimum carry gun. Now it's a Ruger LCP. Reason being that (with a KelTec clip attached) it hides more easily in "dress clothes." I load it with DoubleTap 95-gr ball ammo (does 980 fps from the little thing), and I carry two spare mags along with the gun. I'll still carry small .38s IWB (though I usually find something else that works better - either a small 9 that holds more rounds or a slightly larger .357) - but the LCP has really taken on the deep cover duty.

jon in wv, I normally hate zombie threads, but I'm glad you brought this one back to the top. :)

I have not necessarily "gone to" but I often carry my Ruger LCP as opposed to my Charter Arms .38 special Undercover model.

Just depends on what I am wearing for the day...

I spent a week on vacation and decided to carry my 380 Sig P238 and leave my S&W 649 .357 Bodyguard at home. (My 9mm CZ85 came along in a soft case) The Sig was small and light and was better than a sharp stick but I still felt naked. All I could think of was if I had to use it, it was going to take at least 3 or 4 shots to get the job done. Felt much better packing the .357......comforting and comfortable.

Holy yikes i revived an old one!!!!! Rookie mistake. Sorry.

I went from a Smith and Wesson 642 -5 shot to a Colt Govt 380 7+1. My reasoning was that the Colt was slimmer, held three additional rounds, didn't make fireballs come out of the barrel of my gun, and hey, it's a Colt!

My first carry gun was a keltec p3at. I later upgraded to a 637 jframe which I carried for a long time. I always felt a little uncomfortable with only 5 and would carry a keltec p32 or p3at as backup. Nowadays my little .38 has been all but replaced with a pf9 for pocket carry. I still carry the snub once a week when I am in a wheelie mood, but otherwise it sees little carry time.


As an aside I have almost paid off a brand new ppk/s that will see some carry rotation. Ultimately it was not the power of the rounds that makes me more or less confident in the .380 vs .38 but the combination of only 5 rounds in the snub + slow reloads. I shoot the snub well and am more confident in it's stopping power over a .380 tbh.


Unfortunately I had a similar situation to the one mentioned earlier where I and a handful of other folks were walking back to our cars after a late dinner. There were three unsavory types leering at me (with my 5 year old daughter at the time on my shoulders). I had my .38 and my p32 on me. My hand went in my pocket to my snub and one held my daughter's legs as I walked by as far as I could on the other side of the street. Long story short I found out later that the main guy I caught eye-balling me had flipped a pocket knife open (another person in my party lagging behind saw it and told me way later, sheesh!).


Now I was 20+ feet away and I have no doubt I could have stopped him but only fear or good fortune would have stopped the other two, especially if they were armed with anything better than knives, especially since I only had 1 free hand. That changed my comfortability with 5 shots and a slow reload and even having a ny reload. My bare minimum is now 7-8 rounds and in a swiftly reloadable platform. Most days I carry a glock 26 with a 15 round magazine as extra mag. If I am going anywhere really uncomfortable one of the pocketable keltecs or the snub comes along for the ride too.

Ymmv, but for me 5 with a slow reload just doesn't feel like enough personally, even at a small sacrifice to power. Now if there was no .380 and I had to drop down to .32 to get the added round count over the .38 it might be different. Fortunately nowadays a 9mm can be had in a platform small enough to match the uses of a snub nose revolver. :)

My neighbor is more experienced than I am, and he carries daily because of his job. He and I talk guns a lot and he recently went from a S&W 642 to a Ruger LCP for EDC, keeping the Smith as a "truck gun." As he explained it, the 642 wasn't as easy to carry, but "the LCP, I just toss in a pocket so I know I will carry it everywhere, all the time."

My father transitioned from a S&W Model 38 Airweight Bodyguard to a Polish P-64 (9x18 is effectively .380 equivalent). He says the cylinder width of the revolver made it a lot less comfortable to carry, as it tended to dig into his side. He still carries the revolver on occasion, though, when he's wearing a particular overshirt with a large side-opening breast pocket.

I actually went from a .38 snub to a "bigger" .380 for concealed carry, the latter being a Bersa Thunder. However, I recently went from that to a Kel-Tec PF-9 after running into one in a LGS for a price I couldn't pass on, being how scarce these are around here.

My Gov 380 with Rem 102's fits smoother in my Suit Coat jacket pocket then a Detective's Special. Remember, it is about dressing around the gun and not forcing the gun into the dress code. In this case, a Suit and Tie was required, therefore a Jacket, and considering the area, I had to drop to a 380.
I carry my DS in a tuckable holster of my own design, and have made several for friends. The DS or similar revolver just disappears and it's so comfortable you forget you have it.

it all depends on where you want to carry it.

Pocket carry for me is always going to be a .38 revolver. It doesn't scream "gun" and the draw is much easier for me than an equivalent sized auto.

IWB is going to be an auto. A fullsized 1911 is thinner than a J-frame and thickness is the dimension that makes the difference between comfortable and "hip destroying" for me.

Holy Smokestacks...
when I saw this originally I was surprised that Erich posted this question. I have followed Erich's exploits for several years and consider him a "near" expert. After reading all the replies I better understand what he was looking for.

I carry everyday, everywhere a 3AT in weak side pocket. Probably 98% of the time. I
have shot the snot out of it. It has proved reliable. I too carry it with Corbon DPX.

I also carry a larger primary gun (one is none). It can be anything from an XD-9 to a G29 to a 3913 to a 4513. All in inside belt holsters. Depends on my workday and how I'm dressed. Today is an exception. Taurus UL 38 in ankle holster. My schedule has me meeting people and being dressed so the ankle holster was pretty much the only choice.

Small 38's are nice but I haven't found anything as small as the little Ruger or Keltec
380's for everyday all the time carry.

My .02

Jon

I switched from a .38 snubnose to a .380 caliber BERETTA 84. The BERETTA is bigger, but much easier to control and for that reason it is more accurate for me to shoot. The easier to see 3 dot sights also help.

On the stopping power side, I have 14 rounds of .380 hollow point against 5 of .38 special +P. The .38 has more power per round, but I have more rounds and a better chance of hitting a vital spot with the BERETTA.

Also, if I have to reload, I get 13 more shots in about half the time and can do a tactical reload at any time.

I have found the reliability question not to be an issue with my BERETTA'S. They are for all practical purposes as reliable as a revolver.

The only down side is that the model 84 is at least as bulky as a 6 shot revolver. The 5 shot models win this area by a wide margin. You can also pocket carry a 5 shot revolver. The model 84 is strictly a holster gun for me.


Jim