Murcury Loaded JHP's...


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DonNikmare
March 27, 2005, 10:50 PM
A friend of mine at work told me he's about to inherit a .357 along with some special JHP's. He said his Dad used to reload and took some JHP's, put some murcury in the hollowed points, and sealed them with parafin/candle wax. He also took some JHP's and made a criss cross cut (from the tip toward the back of the bullets) to assist/enhance the mushrooming effect.

I wrinkled my forehead and said: "Uuuh, are you sure those would be legal?"

It would seem to me they would bring about much unnecessary legal trouble on top of having to proove "I felt scared for my life..."

I told him I'd ask here and let him know what all of you think.

Nik

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orangeninja
March 27, 2005, 10:52 PM
Ummmm....sounds like a load, or your friends dad is a wierdo.

Azrael256
March 27, 2005, 10:54 PM
A loaded firearm is, legally, a deadly weapon already. Filling a hollowpoint with mercury doesn't affect that. It does, however, create the risk of needlessly exposing yourself to a nasty little neurotoxin. Tell him to have fun!

It sounds like dad watched too many movies.

zippo8
March 27, 2005, 10:57 PM
There was a movie where a guy put mercury in a hp and heated it to make fulminate of mercury, then sealed it with wax. Supposedly made it explosive.

dev_null
March 27, 2005, 11:00 PM
Tell him not to go to war. Dum-dums are against the Geneva Convention. Oh, wait, forgot we don't care about them anymore. :D

mete
March 27, 2005, 11:08 PM
Modern JHPs work very well, ther's not need to modify them.

DonNikmare
March 27, 2005, 11:24 PM
Don't you all think that if he was in a self-defense situation and ends up having to kill someone, things would become unecessarally more complicated if an autopsy confirmed the presense of murcury?

I'm no legal expert but I would think that "You see, he was out to kill. He used murcury loaded JHP's..." wouldn't sound very well if things went to court.


Nik

Glock19Fan
March 27, 2005, 11:24 PM
There is no way in H*** you are going to make mercury fulminate just by heating it up.

Not only that, but IIRC, mercury dissolves lead. It will also increase the overall bullet weight, which can lead to dangerously high pressures.

Cutting an X in JHPs that generally dont work in the first place will help some, but most modern JHP bullets already have serrations of some kind on the nose of the bullet. In fact, I cant think of any modern JHPs that dont already have serrations in the jacket.

Like mentioned above, he watches too many movies. ;)

Gifted
March 27, 2005, 11:29 PM
Myth-bust:

I heard a long time ago that the point behind the murcury is that it doesn't compress, and so when it hits, it explodes, rather than just expanding.

Standing Wolf
March 27, 2005, 11:56 PM
I'd have to wonder how long the wax would actually seal the mercury, especially if it got cold, then warm, then cold, then warm, then...

I'm certainly no one's idea of an expert on toxic chemicals, but my understanding is that mercury isn't something to fool around with.

As for cutting a jacket hollow-point round, I'd guess that would actually impair its performance: it's designed to expand at a certain rate, and fooling with that might well make it less rather than more effective.

Some people like to think they're extra-dangerous.

Third_Rail
March 27, 2005, 11:57 PM
Mercury, if you could even get it to work in a firearm, would be unstable in flight.

In reality, good luck getting it to work in a firearm - it doesn't move the same way most metals do, and it would tear the bullet apart in the barrel. :)

nordaim
March 28, 2005, 12:12 AM
This find of thing sounds like an urban legend. I have heard stories of things like this for years and years, but have never seen any evidence of someone actually doing it, in person, in photographs, nothing.

There is also something in the back of my mind that says I have read similar things in a Kurt Saxon article, along with ringing shotgun shells, making your own grapeshot, that kind of stuff.

g56
March 28, 2005, 12:18 AM
Old wives tales, a long time ago they talked about putting mercury in hollowpoints and sealing it with wax, all that really does is expose you to a toxic and dangerous heavy metal, not a good idea!

Cutting an X in a bullet was supposed to make them more effective, a waste of time really, and modern bullets are really more effective.

DonNikmare
March 28, 2005, 12:21 AM
His exact words were: "This stuff could kill you even if it just nicked you on the year. The murcury just needs to get into your bloodstream and ..."

From other stories he's told me it sure sounds like his Dad used to reload and tinker quite a bit.

QuarterBoreGunner
March 28, 2005, 12:33 AM
If I recall properly the 'mercury in the hollow-point' myth comes from the original 'Day of the Jackal' by Fredrick Forsyth... or was it Robert Ludlum?

Never mind. It's an old urban firearms legend.

Stevie-Ray
March 28, 2005, 12:39 AM
It sounds like dad watched too many movies. In particular, The Exterminator, starring Robert Ginty and Christopher George.

Azrael256
March 28, 2005, 12:41 AM
I poked around for a bit and found this (http://yarchive.net/gun/ammo/mercury_in_bullet.html) info about it. It seems that mercury will dissolve lead, so the bullet would likely shatter when fired (assuming you could get it into the chamber without damage).

Oh, and everybody poke through this (http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/lofiversion/index.php/t3122.html) little gem. It's all about how 1337 S33L T33MZ used mercury-filled, cyanide-tipped, depleted uranium, scandium-jacketed, fusion bomb bullets to kill Kennedy.

GRB
March 28, 2005, 12:47 AM
As for liquid mercury being placed into hollow points, I see little practical application for it. I know that it would poison someone who was shot with it, and this could result in an attempted murder charge even if you shot someone justifiably. When shooting someone you are usually legally required to stop shoting once the person is no longer a threat to life or of serious bodily injury (of course shooting to stop can result in death but not always). If you had added mercury to your bullets, it would show a predetermined mindset to kill someone instead of just shooting to stop because it would lilely be borne out in court that such would in effect poison the person whom was shot in addition to the harm caused by just gunshot wound. Then again, it would not likely kill you if it just nicked your ear, and may not kill you even if fully discharged into your bloodstream. If detected it would be possible to treat. If undetected, certain levels of mercury could be fatal, if not fatal then it could cause severe organ damage.

Now if you are talking Mercury Fulminate, aka: Fulminate of Mercury, that is another story. Fulminate of Mercury has been placed into hollow points before with some potentially nasty results. It is quite the bang and, it used to be used as primer material in certain types of explosives or ammunition.

From The Collaborative International Dictionary of English v.0.48 :
mercury fulminate \mer"cu*ry ful"mi*nate\, n. (Chem.)
The mercury salt of fulminic acid (Hg(CNO)2), called also
fulminate of mercury. It is an explosive compound prepared
as gray crystals, and is used primarily in detonators for
detonating high explosives, such as dynamite or TNT. It is
sensitive to shock and may be detonated by a blow.
[PJC]
From WordNet (r) 2.0 (August 2003) : mercury fulminate
n : a fulminate that when dry explodes violently if struck or
heated; used in detonators and blasting caps and
percussion caps

Note that Fulminate of Mercury is a crystaline substance, it is not liquid, it will not cause lead to liquify, but rather will fit nicely into the end of a bullet or into a primer or into a persussion cap (basically a primer). It is potentially very dangerous stuff, and when used as a primer I believe it is highly corrosive. It is not the thing, in my opinion, with which to fool around.

All the best,
GB

coylh
March 28, 2005, 12:49 AM
That's just long range dentistry.

"Amalgam filling on #1 at 300 meters. Aim. Fire!"

Kamicosmos
March 28, 2005, 01:10 AM
Kinda like the people that supposedly glue a primer into the end of a HP?


:rolleyes:

RyanM
March 28, 2005, 01:26 AM
I heard a long time ago that the point behind the murcury is that it doesn't compress, and so when it hits, it explodes, rather than just expanding.

Water doesn't compress, either, and is much safer. And guess what! Bad guys are 70% water! And when shot, they're usually conscientious enough to fill up the hollowpoint cavities of your bullets with their 70% water flesh!

So sticking junk in a hollowpoint is pretty redundant. It might allow a poorly-designed bullet to expand after passing through heavy clothing by preventing the cavity from getting plugged with cloth, but you'd be better off using better designed bullets in the first place.

Crosshair
March 28, 2005, 02:50 AM
Azrael256, tell me the people on that board are in little padded rooms. :uhoh:

Anyway, here is something I actualy did. I was playing with a round of Wolf HP 7.62x39 and a pin and thought to myself, "Wow, there is alot of space inside this bullet." Instantly I thought, poison bullet. So I desided to fill the front cavity with asprin so a wound would not clot. Well, even with a syringe and an asprin paste I only made 5 of them. When I shot them, 2 went straight and true and the other 3 I have no idea where they ended up. The 2 that impacted the steel plate target where covered in white powder (asprin). I then concluded (cause I couldn't hit crap with them) that the whole thing was a waste of time. :banghead:

tyme
March 28, 2005, 03:54 AM
Mercury has no place in self defense. If a bullet doesn't stop someone immediately, the mercury won't either.

I can't think of any use for it in bullets aside from assassination, and this forum is probably not intended for discussion of workable assassination methods. :)

I wonder about the effect on ballistics, though. The mercury wouldn't be spinning much as the bullet leaves the barrel, though the rest of the bullet would be spinning much more rapidly. Gradually the rest of the bullet would impart spin to the mercury, slowing the outer shell's rotation. Then again after the bullet hits the target, the outside of the bullet would slow more rapidly, then more slowly than usual. There must be studies of liquid-filled bullet ballistics out there somewhere, but the effects would be different due to mercury's extremely high density. (and of course every liquid will have different viscosity)
Hg: 13.546g/cc @ 300K (liquid)
Pb: 11.35g/cc @ 300K (solid)
(the best periodic table in existence (http://www.environmentalchemistry.com/yogi/periodic/))

medmo
March 28, 2005, 04:32 AM
Was his dad Italian or Italian American?

Gabby Hayes
March 28, 2005, 05:53 AM
Makes me wonder how long dad was playing around with mercury before he started reloading. Given the long-term mood and mental changes that can result from chronic mercury poisoning, I don't think I'd want him reloading any of my ammo. :scrutiny: Besides, the boys over at the IWBA won't want you messing up their tests by splattering mercury all over their nice clean denim. :neener:

BluesBear
March 28, 2005, 06:17 AM
Kinda like the people that supposedly glue a primer into the end of a HP? You mean like these?

:D
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=23115

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=23116
:neener:

They worked VERY well. They are lousy for self defense but they do "explode". Which is exactly what they were designed to do.


However the mercury in a hollow point IS wide spread URBAN MYTH. Which is a polite way of saying your "friend at work" who's about to inherit some special JHP's is FOS.

280PLUS
March 28, 2005, 06:39 AM
I had a friend once who claimed to be a Special Forces VN vet. He also claimed that mercury was used in bullets by assassins (snipers) during the war to ensure that if the initial impact didn't kill, the mercury poisoning would because there was no way to remove it once it had atomized within the body.

But then you read say Joseph Wards book on VN sniping and see where they (the team as a whole) rejected some softpoint ammo one of the sniper's dads had sent over because they weren't Geneva inproved.

He also claimed (even though being an avid drunk) that the CIA still called him when needed for "special missions". :rolleyes:

At the very least, whether it works or not, wherever these rounds would be impacting would create massive mercury contamination for others to be exposed to. Then, of course, there's the contamination wherever the actual loading is done.

Side note: I can remember 7th grade science class (Circa 1969) where we would put blobs of mercury in the palms of our hands and play with it by pushing it around with our finger. You know, to watch it separate and rejoin which was always cool.

Now, recently some kid brought some to school and they had a massive evacuation and hazmat teams decontaminating. BIG furor.

:eek:

HankB
March 28, 2005, 09:15 AM
About 30 years ago I remember seeing "Mer-Core" bullets as reloading components at an Illinois (!) sporting goods store. They were in baggies with a cardboard tag which described their awesome capabilities. IIRC they looked like conventional jacketed bullets with the nose sealed by something that looked like asphalt.

In principle I suppose they'd act sort of like Glaser safety slugs with really, really really fine shot.

Heating the mercury wouldn't make it explosive - mercury is processed with nitric acid and alcohol to make fulminate of mercury - but it WOULD allow you to get a good whiff of mercury vapor. :eek:

I once ran into a guy making his own explosive bullets. He was drilling out hollowpoints and putting a primer into the nose . . . but to get more "bang" he was taking primers apart, scraping the priming compound out, and packing it into the nose by hand.

He still seemed to have all his fingers attached, and his gun wasn't in pieces, but when he offered me a few to try I declined.

StopTheGrays
March 28, 2005, 09:42 AM
Didn't the police chief in Jaws 2 do the mercury thing or was he putting something else in the ammo he was putzing with?

zippo8
March 28, 2005, 11:33 AM
Heating the mercury wouldn't make it explosive - mercury is processed with nitric acid and alcohol to make fulminate of mercury - but it WOULD allow you to get a good whiff of mercury vapor

Ah...The magic of Hollywood. And all ricochets give off sparks too.


I believe it was the Exterminator. Hadn't seen that one in a while.

Fred Fuller
March 28, 2005, 12:36 PM
Hmmm.

What did his dad die from?

Will the EPA arrive to confiscate his bullets?

-keep us posted on developments...

lpl/nc

LiquidTension
March 28, 2005, 12:50 PM
I seem to recall something like this happening in a Jaws movie, but I can't remember which one. They all run together :rolleyes:

cpileri
March 28, 2005, 01:01 PM
Here's what I think I know:
1. Mercury will dissolve the lead, and thus will permeate the projectile making it appear very silvery and shiney. This of course will touch the powder, and I dont know if it will deactivate it.

2. According to gunwriter's webpages, a mercury filled hp was used to assassinate the russian governor who initiated gun control in finland. Supposedly did increase expansion and sent lots of little globules of mercury perforating his guts. Died not of mercury poisoning, but of peritonitis/sepsis a few days later. But they were used, and did apparently 'work'.

3. Lots of liquids don't compress, as mentioned such as water, also the fluid in your brake lines, etc. the same gunwriter's webpages describes vaseline in 22LR hollowpoints.

I can only verify these things as far as this thread. Never tried any of it myself.

C-

Magnuumpwr
March 28, 2005, 01:07 PM
I have experience using mercury in JSP 44 mags. The bullets I used were Remington 240 gr. and with the help of an adjustable drill press drilled a hole 3/16" by 1/4 deep. One drop of merc and sealed with parafin wax. I shot dogs with both factory and modified bullets, the difference was that when shot with the plain JSP the wound channel was minimal. But when shot with the modified bullet, if hit in the ribs, would almost severe the animal in 2. It was purely experimental and I have since quit using my mercury for such things. My rounds were never stored for any time longer than a month. Everyone that thinks that mercury in a bullet is just a myth is sorely mistaken and if someone were ever shot with this load there is no doubt in my mind that they would not walk away from it! I do not recommend that anyone try this and if you do, I accept no responsibility for the results!

Ohen Cepel
March 28, 2005, 01:13 PM
Reminds me to pack some garlic in my next set of reloads, oh and a little silver for the werewolves :D

Sorry. I think all the good reasons to not do this has already been covered. It's just a bad idea for many reasons.

RyanM
March 28, 2005, 01:58 PM
Reminds me to pack some garlic in my next set of reloads, oh and a little silver for the werewolves

I think there's at least one company that uses silver as an alloying element in their cast bullets, for some weird reason.

Yeah, found it. http://www.laser-cast.com/Laser_CastBullets.html

molonlabe
March 28, 2005, 02:23 PM
I had a friend once who claimed to be a Special Forces VN vet. He also claimed that mercury was used in bullets by assassins (snipers) during the war to ensure that if the initial impact didn't kill, the mercury poisoning would because there was no way to remove it once it had atomized within the body.

Always view with Skepticism. If I had a dollar for every Navy Seal I met at parades, Moving wall memorials, etc. I would be rich. There simply weren’t that many of them.

My Sister in laws ex boyfriend was a Seal and cowers in the corner every time he hears a helicopter. :rolleyes: Ya, know what I mean?

Lone Star
March 28, 2005, 06:33 PM
Didn't you guys see, "Jaws", or maybe the scene was in, "Jaws II". Police chief did that with the ammo for his S&W M15.

Myth, and probably, danger, in my view.

Lone Star

Kingcreek
March 28, 2005, 07:15 PM
Aside from the toxic heavy metal issue and the modified "dum-dums" ....
Isn't anyone else concerned about the guys other safety habits related to reloading? I wouldn't trust reloaded ammo from an unknown source and especially not from a known idiot. Dispose of all of it- don't shoot it.

BluesBear
March 28, 2005, 07:17 PM
The Mercury bullet bit has been used several times. It's one of those things that sounds good on paper unless you understand high school chemistry.

The theory of Mercury being the heaviest liquid, when inserted into a bullet, enables massive expansion.
Sort of like a Hyrda-Shok with self contained hyrdaulics. :scrutiny:
Unfortunately even if the Mercury was stable inside the bullet, you could use it inside a Barnes bullet, expansion of small arms ammunition needs to be a controlled event. A proper expansion/penetration ratio is need to be effective.
A Mercury filled bullet would expand too soon just like a Glaser, a Magsafe or a Devastator/Exploder.


Of course blowing large chunks off of a shark is a lot different than trying to stop a rapist.
Of course blowing large chunks out of a rapist could be considered great fun. Unless you were the current rapee.

Cosmoline
March 28, 2005, 07:29 PM
I had a friend once who claimed to be a Special Forces VN vet. He also claimed that mercury was used in bullets by assassins (snipers) during the war to ensure that if the initial impact didn't kill, the mercury poisoning would because there was no way to remove it once it had atomized within the body.

That's good for a laugh or two. Real mall ninja stuff.

In "Jaws 2" Roy Scheider's character fills his HP's with Cyanide, not mercury. His idea is presumably that his .38 might be able to get the poison into the shark's system. Frankly this nutty idea has more merit than using mercury to enhance the impact of an ordinary bullet. The only thing you might accomplish is to cause the bullet to fail on impact. Even if the mercury gets into the body, it will just pool up and become part of the infected tissue, like spilled mercury pooling up in your hand. You will expose yourself to more mercury preparing the tip than you would ever be able to deliver into anyone with the bullet.

GunWares
March 28, 2005, 09:08 PM
If you want to make a truly deadly bullet, try sealing some au jus from Arby's into the tip of your hollow point. :uhoh:

Thrash1982
March 28, 2005, 10:38 PM
Once I went into Don's guns in Indianapolis and asked if they sold any reloading equipment or supplies. The guy at the counter gave me a blank stare and asked me why in the world I would want to do that. I explained to him why people reload and he just responded that his 'time was too valuable.' He then went on to say that if he were to reload he would make his own mercury filled teflon bullets. I shook my head and left the store.

Mauserguy
March 28, 2005, 10:51 PM
Alduro was right. That guys dad was a moron. Aside from handling a toxic chemical, rupturing the jacket of a bullet can lead to the jacket becoming lodged in the gun's barrel upon firing. The jacket is designed not to be broken, so if you cut it, the lead inside can fly out of the barrel, leaving the jacket as a dangerous barrel obstruction. Good luck to him.
Mauserguy

DonNikmare
March 28, 2005, 11:01 PM
That's just long range dentistry. LOL

His Dad is still alive. Just having some health problems and not shooting or tinkering anymore.

Don't think he's Italian or American Italian but I'll ask, lol.

I'll also forward him this thread and see what he thinks. :) Knowing him..he'll get a laugh or two reading it.

You guys are the best!

Nik

Crosshair
March 28, 2005, 11:26 PM
What would probably be the most effective substance to put into a bullet would be lye. It's stable, easily handled and is inert against virtualy all non-organic materials. Can you imagine getting shot with one of those. :uhoh:

whm1974
March 28, 2005, 11:33 PM
Once I went into Don's guns in Indianapolis and asked if they sold any reloading equipment or supplies. The guy at the counter gave me a blank stare and asked me why in the world I would want to do that. I explained to him why people reload and he just responded that his 'time was too valuable.' He then went on to say that if he were to reload he would make his own mercury filled teflon bullets. I shook my head and left the store.

I find it hard to belive that a gunstore clerk wouldn't know why shooters reload. OR say something stuiped as "making his own mercury filled teflon bullets"

-Bill

Sunray
March 29, 2005, 12:01 AM
Dum-dums are hollow points originally made in the Dum-Dum(sp?) arsenal in India. In any case, most HP pistol bullets do not reliably expand at standard handgun velocities. Note that the operative word is 'reliably'.
Mercury does dissolve lead. However, mercury poisoning takes massive amounts of mercury ingested over long periods. Just like lead poisoning.
In 'Jaws', the Chief shot a scuba tank that the shark was chewing on. I doubt a full scuba tank would explode if shot though. Propane tanks don't either.

g56
March 29, 2005, 12:09 AM
I had one of the best laughs in days when I followed that link over to the page about the Kennedy assassination, one writer said:

"What should be pointed out is that mercury is only preserved in a liquid state when controlled in a chamber and not released to surrounding air and temperature. When it is exposed, it becomes hardened and remains in the hardened state."

Back in the 50's we kids would break thermometers to get the mercury to play with, it was kinda fun to play with liquid metal, of course we didn't realize the danger of mercury at the time. In Jr High School science our teacher had a small bottle of liquid mercury that he showed us.

Cosmoline
March 29, 2005, 02:20 AM
I doubt a full scuba tank would explode if shot though. Propane tanks don't either.

Don't know about scuba tanks, but propane tanks do indeed blow up. I shoot the little one pounders sometimes from a safe distance, and BAM!

BluesBear
March 29, 2005, 06:42 AM
The jacket is designed not to be broken, so if you cut it, the lead inside can fly out of the barrel, leaving the jacket as a dangerous barrel obstruction. :banghead: Not if it was a hollow point to begin with.
The HP has a solid jacket on the base. Now if it were a FMJ it would be a different story. 30 years ago I saw many a barrel ruined by morons cutting the noses off of Mil-Surp ammo thinking it would mysteriously become SP hunting ammo. Doing that sooner or later you'll blow the core right out of the jacket.

doubt a full scuba tank would explode if shot though. :rolleyes: Ever pop a balloon? It's the exact same principle.Propane tanks don't either.Oh YES it WILL! Doesn't even have to be anywhere near full if there's an ignition source nearby. Fusees work very well. :evil:

I take those one time use helium tanks from the party store and fill them up with compressed air to about 75psi. They go good. :neener:

Tory
March 29, 2005, 08:35 AM
"Dum-dums are hollow points originally made in the Dum-Dum(sp?) arsenal in India."

Actually, the original "dum-dum" bullets were NOT hollowpoints. They were large, SOFT lead bullets that would obturate at the comparatively low velocities of the era. They were developed to stop certain hostile tribesmen known for attacking in a drug-induced frenzy, which attacks the hard bullets of the day did too little immediate damage to stop.

Hollow points are a more recent innovation.

Kingcreek
March 29, 2005, 09:17 AM
Gov surplus weather balloons filled with oxy/acetalene will not blow up when shot but they will if you attach and light a fuse. (discovered in some of my experiments from the early years)
:what: !!! :D

DonNikmare
March 29, 2005, 11:58 AM
I just heard back from my friend at work. He read the thread and wrote back...

Kool reading to say the least. I agree that the bullet may not fly a true path due to the mercury being a liquid. My dad is far from Italian or a moron. I have been shooting his reloads in my rifles for years without one single problem. I find it ironic that a forum of guys that talk about guns and effects of rounds on the human body can call anyone a moron. I am quite sure that there is a lot of truth to this being a Wives tale. I have no plans of EVER firing these rounds! And I agree with Nik that the legal ramifications would be bad. I also agree that reg rounds would be just as affective. A lot of laughs in this thread to say the least. BTW there are only 6 rounds loaded he loaded as described by me over 10 years ago and all are still intact last I looked. I will keep these rounds but I never intend on using them. The gun is a 357 Trooper Special. As far as for watching TV lmao, he hates TV. And as far as I know he loaded these rounds for giggles and grins knowing him. Moron, nah hes a great dad! He never has his guns loaded in the house and is by far the biggest safety nut I know regarding firearms. He is also a lifetime NRA member. Nik you may copy n paste this if you want to the site

He is really one of the nicest guys you'll ever meet and I'm sure his Dad is too!

Nik

Greg L
March 29, 2005, 12:41 PM
It was mentioned in passing way back on page one but Fredrick Forsyth did the same thing in Day of the Jackal back in 1971.

In a SD shooting, having an autopsy find mercury in the goblin would be very bad. Practice your double taps if you are that worried about stopping him :D .

280PLUS
March 29, 2005, 12:42 PM
"My dad is far from Italian or a moron."

:scrutiny:

Watch out or I'll load up some rounds with my granny's tiny lasagna meatballs and make a few of you Italian by injection...

:D

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