Will USPSA drop the stupid 10 rd. limit on Production???


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Krag
March 28, 2005, 12:23 PM
Now that the AWB is dead will USPSA smarten up and start letting us Production shooters use hicap mags? Or will they keep the restriction because there are a couple of states that still ban them? :banghead:

I can stuff 19 rds. in my Para 18.9 LDA and want to play with it that way!!! :cool:

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Chris Rhines
March 28, 2005, 12:55 PM
Very unlikely. That would make Production class and Limited class pretty much indistingusihable.

There's some talk of changing Lim-10 to a Singlestack class, but so far it's all just been talk.

Shoot Limited if you want to use big magazines. Dat's what I do...

- Chris

waktasz
March 28, 2005, 01:09 PM
I like the limit for production, for the same reason I like IDPA's 10 round limit. If they lifted the 10 round limit, everyone would have to get the highest capacity 9mm they could find (which you probably already have :) ) It allows more guns to shoot competitively in the class.

Krag
March 28, 2005, 01:36 PM
Boy, you guys are no fun at all! :neener:

Chris, I disagree. In Limited you have Major/Minor P.F. and can use single action pistols. In Production you only have Minor P.F. and must use a DA/SA, DAO or Safe Action pistol.

IPSC doesn't have the 10 rd. limit. The majority of pistols built in the last 10 years can take hicap mags, which are now going for dirt cheap prices. Everbody I know who got stuck with Clintonista 10 rds. mags is buying hicaps now.
I've never even seen a person competing in Production with a single stack pistol.

In fact, I bet most Production shooters would be in favor of dropping the 10 rd. limit. It just doesn't make sense anymore. :(

Duke of Lawnchair
March 28, 2005, 02:07 PM
There's some talk of changing Lim-10 to a Singlestack class, but so far it's all just been talk.

I hope that does not become a reality.

-Jim

atek3
March 28, 2005, 04:02 PM
Living in the PRK, I wouldn't mind if they seperated production into production and production 10. But one of the main reasons for the ten round limit was to increase the variety of handguns that were competitive in the class. With a 10 rd limit, all manner of great handguns are compeitive. With unlimited capacity I see production getting really 'gamey', "My factory gun holds 21 rd of 9mm, honest." Very few brands would compare to an LDA that holds 19 rds or a glock 34 that holds 17. XD's hold 15, Sig's 13, beretta's 15, CZ's 15.
Having an extra DT or two on tap really is a make or break thing on many "hoser" stages.
The 10 rd capacity really levels the playing field. Think of it as the NASCAR of action pistol. If IPSC was a tactical thing, leveling the playing field would be pretty silly, but since it's a game, and game's are designed to be fun for the maximum number, I don't really think a change of the rules is really needed.

atek3

Krag
March 28, 2005, 04:51 PM
And the vast majority of those pistol are capable of using hicap magazines. How many single stack pistols do you see in Production? I can't remember a single one.

I think that pistols holding 15 -19 rounds of 9mm don't have any great advantage over each other. Look at Open and Limited, you have guys using guns with varying mag capacities without holding an advantage.

As 99% of Production shooters use the 9mm we're talking about an insignificant difference here.

If Production was designed to allow the use of "factory production" pistols then I think it's foolish to say that you can only load 10 rounds in a 15, 17 or 19 round magazine. By doing so, you are thus negating an importance aspect of that pistol. As hicap mags are now readily available and cheap I can see no reason why the rules aren't changed. IPSC does it without any problem - why can't we? :mad:

Chris Rhines
March 28, 2005, 06:33 PM
As I already said, because it would seriously blur the line between Production and Limited. SA/DA, major power factor, and magwells isn't enough for a seperate division.

- Chris

Krag
March 28, 2005, 07:00 PM
Chris - we will have to agree to disagree. IMHO there is no way a production shooter, merely by using a 15+ round magazine, can overcome the disadvantages of shooting a pistol without all the Bells & Whistles allowed in Limited - and firing a Minor P.F. cartridge to boot. :what:

I guess we will just have to wait and see what the powers that be in Sedro Wooley decide for us poor peons? ;)

Chris Rhines
March 28, 2005, 07:23 PM
I picked up my C card in Limited shooting a stock CZ-75 9mm, SA, with 15 round magazines.

- Chris

MoNsTeR
March 28, 2005, 10:28 PM
Removing the 10rd rule from Production would be foolish.

Today, any DA or DAO 9mm, .40, or .45 (or whatever) that can hold 10rds can be competitive in production. Note the diversity in gun choice among the Production Top 16 at this past Nationals. Now delete any of those guns that doesn't hold at least 17+1 rounds, because that's what would be left if the 10rd rule went away.

How many new shooters have you seen show up with a Glock 19, USP .40, or Ruger P95? Without the 10rd rule, none of those guns are competitive. Giving new shooters one more reason not to come back is a bad idea in my book.

Part of the point of having Production division in the first place is to give folks a place to play where there's no equipment race. The 10rd rule is integral to preserving that.

Hoser
March 28, 2005, 10:35 PM
USPSA will not get rid of the 10 round production ban anytime soon. There are more than a couple states with stupid mag cap limits. Its not a federal limit anymore, but it does exist at the state level. Try to keep that in mind.

If you pay attention to what IPSC has done with their production legal list recently, it isnt cool. Any gun that was viewed as being built solely for production, they axed it. Now your $1,000 SP-01 is illegal.

In IPSC, not USPSA, Production is mostly a mag cap driven game. The Glock 17 holds 17+1, some CZ's hold 18+1, and Para LDAs hold 18+1. What do you think people are going to choose with 8 and 9 round arrays and the wicked fast movers that exist at the international level?

Limited-10 is *not* going to be replaced by Limited-8. Limited-8 is a proposed division for those that want to shoot a single stack with carry gear (read pissed of IDPA shooters) and 8 round mags. The rules would mirror the Single Stack Classic and real close to IDPA.

I shot Production hard for a few years, L2598. The USPSA and IDPA 10 round cap is good for the game.

Krag
March 29, 2005, 07:16 AM
I have to restate my earlier point. The Glock 19 and Ruger 95 will both hold 16 rounds which easily makes them competitive against an 18 round G17 or 19 round 18.9 LDA. Once again, how many single stack 9mm/.40 pistols do you see in Production? Da*n few, if any at all. Right?

Hoser
March 29, 2005, 08:36 AM
Once again, how many single stack 9mm/.40 pistols do you see in Production? Da*n few, if any at all. Right?

Around here you will see Glocks, Sigs, S&W, and occasional Steyr and Para. Some of the Sigs and Smiths are single stacks. Most of the time people are using 10 round mags as not everyone has thrown them away in favor of full cap mags.

There really is not that many single stack pistols that are well suited for Production, either IPSC or USPSA.

waktasz
March 29, 2005, 11:37 AM
I guess when I feel like shooting what I carry I'll just have to agree to lose that day (not that I win anyway, but I'd like to have a chance) because my 229 only holds 13 rounds. Oh well.

Krag
March 29, 2005, 12:12 PM
Wak - 3 rounds of magazine capacity is way down the list of deciding factors why you don't win. Robbie Leatham could probably beat all of us with an Iver Johnson top break .32 revolver! :banghead:

Practice, practice, practice............... ;)

atek3
March 29, 2005, 02:53 PM
thats crazy talk. 32 vs. 36 in mag capacity four down isn't a major handicap, however, 13 vs. 17 rounds, 4 down is a huge difference. Please excuse my skepticism that if the 10 rd cap was ended ANYONE would stick with the 'low capacity' autos in serious competition. I mean if people didn't take IPSC at least partly seriously they would be far more guns used than now. I mean look at open class, pretty much the only thing competitive are 1911-clones. I'd hate to see production become similar.

atek3

MoNsTeR
March 29, 2005, 10:32 PM
16 rounds isn't competitive with 18 rounds. If it were, there would still be .45's in Limited. This is particluarly true now that arrays can be 9 rounds; a 16 round gun can't always handle two arrays.

Ankeny
March 30, 2005, 11:56 PM
The USPSA and IDPA 10 round cap is good for the game.

Amen to that.

sigma40sw
March 31, 2005, 11:41 AM
I for one do not want to see this go away, besides I live in NYS and we are still under the 10 rd limit do to state law. :mad:

But I also know it is what has got lots of people to start shooting USPSA Production and IDPA because they use the same gear they carry and they feel it levels the equipment race.

If you want to use your 18 rd Para, there is nothing stopping you from shooting "Limited", An A is still an A wheither Major or Minor. :)

I shoot with a revolver shooter who uses an 8 rd revolver in Limited 10 as he feels he should not have to down load to six when his capacity is 8. Trust me, he is never last and is always in the middle of the pack. His attitude is winning isn't as important as having fun and using the equipment you choose.

Production and Limited 10 are the NASCAR (10 rd = restrictor plate) versions of the practical shooting game and many of us like it that way.

Sigma40sw

atek3
March 31, 2005, 02:46 PM
I was going to compare it to nascar myself, but I didn't want people to think I have a confederate flag on my pickup truck :)

atek3

ChristopherG
March 31, 2005, 04:26 PM
I shoot with a revolver shooter who uses an 8 rd revolver in Limited 10

Neat. But--does he shoot minor? 'Cause major requires >.39 caliber, doesn't it?

cadfael
March 31, 2005, 04:27 PM
I think keeping the 10 rd limit is good for two reasons:

1. Keeps it easy to obtain for people in restrictive states

2. Allows for more shooters to go to the sport, especially with IDPA being in turmoil with the recent rule changes.

Adam

Krag
March 31, 2005, 05:54 PM
Where I live you can't pass you annual safety inspection unless you have a Confederate flag on your pickemup truck. :rolleyes:

As my grandaddy always said, "Save your Confederate money boys. The South will rise again!" :cuss:

Eeeeeehhhhhaaaaaa........! :D

Hoser
March 31, 2005, 06:13 PM
Neat. But--does he shoot minor? 'Cause major requires >.39 caliber, doesn't it?

Not for revos. 357 makes major. It used to be that the brass HAD to be stamped 357 Magnum to make major. Now people can make major with any bullet .355 or larger, the way you get it to major no longer matters.

ChristopherG
March 31, 2005, 08:35 PM
Got it; I knew that was true for revolver division, but being able to use .357 in an N-frame makes L10 a pretty attractive option. Thanks for the clarification.

Krag
March 31, 2005, 08:48 PM
IDPA is in turmoil? Ya'll gotta be kidding. What have the street combat purists got to argue about? :rolleyes:

sigma40sw
March 31, 2005, 08:48 PM
As the above note says 357 mag does make major, He uses magnum cases and a 200 gr hard cast lead bullet. It's a S&W Performance Center Revolver.
It will easily make the 165 PF, in fact he last chronoed at 172.

Sigma40sw

Krag
April 1, 2005, 01:22 PM
Well, it looks like I'm outvoted on this forum. Sigh......... :(

But I'm still going to keep sending e-mails to USPSA and keep campaigning for a rules change. :banghead: What else have I got to do? :D

Hoser
April 1, 2005, 01:40 PM
What else have I got to do? Stop emailing Sedro. The delete key is too easy to use. Hanging up and a member is much harder to do.

I would start off at the club level. Start a petition there. From there move to the section level with your petition. Then on to state and area, ect.

Be prepared to show, not tell, how the change will be good for USPSA as a whole, not just good for you. Be prepared to show them that IPSC does not have the 10 round limit and they are doing much better than USPSA. If you say that you want to be able to load your Para LDA to 18 rounds, they will tell you to shoot Limited. Just a heads up.

Things can be changed. The other SC from Colorado and I got Colorado moved from Area 1 to Area 2. It was not just our idea, but the wishes of an overwhelming majority of shooters in both Areas. Emails did nothing. Phone calls and face to face meetings with Jake, Bruce and Mike followed by a lot of work got it done.

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