Stop student violence -- Arm the Teachers.


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Kelsey
March 29, 2005, 12:12 AM
Check this out. I say go for it. The students are already armed.



PHOENIX - All options should be considered to prevent rampages like the Minnesota school shooting that took 10 lives — including making guns available to teachers, a top National Rifle Association leader said Friday.

“I’m not saying that that means every teacher should have a gun or not, but what I am saying is we need to look at all the options at what will truly protect the students,” the NRA’s first vice president, Sandra S. Froman, told The Associated Press.

Gun-control restrictions would not have prevented Jeff Weise, 16, from killing nine people and himself Monday at Red Lake High School near Bemidji, Minn., said Froman, an attorney expected next month to be elected president of the NRA, which claims 4 million members.

The presence of an unarmed guard at the school failed to stop the siege, she noted.

“No gun law, no policy that you could implement now or that was already implemented, I think, could possibly prevent someone so intent on destruction,” she said. “I think everything’s on the table as far as looking at what we need to do to make our schools safe for our students.”



Froman said if it is the responsibility of teachers to protect students in a school, “then we as a society, we as a community have to provide a way for the teachers to do that.”

Froman cited the 1997 school shooting incident in Pearl, Miss., where a teacher retrieved a gun from his car when a student opened fire, then held the student at bay until police arrived.

A law prohibiting guns in schools “is not going to stop someone who has evil in their heart and who has the capacity to commit those crimes from doing them,” Froman said
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PromptCritical
March 29, 2005, 02:41 AM
Yep, bet that went over like a turd in the punchbowl to the powers that be.

Kelsey
March 29, 2005, 08:57 AM
Oh, I am sure it was greeted with open arms by the likes of Fienstien and Lautenberg. :rolleyes: \\ :scrutiny:

DigMe
March 29, 2005, 09:03 AM
I currently work in a school running a specialized education program funded by the Dept. of Labor. I'm about to quit that and get my teacher certification. You can bet your bottom dollar that I'm all in favor of this one!

Tom Servo
March 29, 2005, 09:55 AM
Heck, it works in Israel. As a matter of fact, when you hear stories on the news about potential terrorists getting gunned down by "security forces," that's usually a spin to say "armed civilians."

fiVe
March 29, 2005, 11:32 AM
Last night, the local news posted a viewer opinion poll question:

Should teachers be allowed to have guns in school?

On their "Channel 3 Extra" broadcast (which airs after the local news), they reported the results of their poll...

The final vote was 54% - yes, 46% - no.

They read 4 emails - 2 in favor and 2 against.

Then they took calls. I listened to the first 4, but they were all against, and it appeared that were starting to slant things to their agenda, so I turned it off. To give credit to the newscaster/host, he did make the following statement (paraphased):

I haven't thought this out all the way. On one hand, I would be uncomfortable with my daughter being around guns all day. But, on the other hand, I would hate to think there was no way for someone to protect my daughter should a crazed student go on a shooting rampage.

I learned that 4 states allow CCW at schools: Alabama, New Hampshire, Oregon, and Utah. I found it interesting that Utah's law forbids local schools, cities, or counties from prohibiting CCW at their location.

My Take.
It seems that the anti's throw out 1 of 2 arguments:
1) Schools will become just like Old West towns with rootin', tootin', shootin chaos and no regard for law or decency.
or
2) Students could easily overpower teachers to get their guns which just makes it easier for crazy kids to get guns which is unacceptable.

If things are done correctly, 1 or more teachers will fulfill their state's requirements for CCW, and then they will carry concealed and quietly and life goes on. No one (teacher or student) would know whether or not a teacher is carrying. And no one would ever have to know unless the weapon was pressed into service due to another Columbine or Red Lake.

R/fiVe

SteveS
March 29, 2005, 12:23 PM
I found it interesting that Utah's law forbids local schools, cities, or counties from prohibiting CCW at their location.

Michigan's law does too. Unfortunately, the same law also prohibits carry in schools, but it is nice that local municipalities can't prohibit carrying.

My take on it is that many people will continue to believe that weapons don't belong in schools and that having a no weapons policy is the best thing, despite evidence to the contrary. My wife is a teacher and I asked her if she would carry. She said that she wasn't sure, but that she would like the option.

Gus Dddysgrl
March 29, 2005, 01:02 PM
I'm going to school to be a teacher, preferably in an inner-city school. I would love it if I were allowed to carry to class. I would feel better about being there. Not like I'd be that scared if I were unarmed, but I'd prefer to have mine with me. I think it's a good idea and maybe I will be able to get something done about teachers being allowed to carry if they wanted.

One of the hesitations is if they have to have some sort of specific training and stuff like that. Right now there are so many things teachers are responsible for some may not want the added load of being "the security guard". I think it should be optional if teachers want the added protection.

Gus

KAR120C
March 29, 2005, 01:24 PM
Allowing (not requiring) teachers to carry is obviously the right thing to do. I wonder if the Russians are arming teachers yet?

I've noticed a certain amount of restraint on the part of the anti's after this incindent. Normally they'd be out beating the same old drums, using this incident as a (supposed) justification for their theories. I believe this restraint is because of the following:

- First it didn't invlove a EBR, in fact so far it seems it started with a .22, about as inocuous and ubiquitous a gun as you can get. Goes to the irrelevance of the AWB in reducing crime.

- Next it involved taking guns from a LEO (the second time in recent weeks). Gee, aren't they the "professionals" whose job it is to protect us? Aren't they the only ones who should have guns so that the rest of us don't hurt each other? :banghead: Guess not.

- Lastly it showed how pointless metal detectors, "no guns allowed" signs, and unarmed guards are. This was just the latest case in Minnesota where this was demonstrated. The other most famous case involved a murder at the Hennepin county court house, which had the useless signs. Interestingly enough they just recently put in metal detectors and armed guards at that building.

It is just disgusting how the anti's stick their head in the sand and ignore ways to make kids safer/reduce future fatalities. In all the discussions on the media about this I have only heard one person even broach the topic of arming the guard (none mentioned teachers), and he only did so to immediately dismiss it as unworkable... "the kid would simply have shot an armed guard too". WHAT A NITWIT :cuss: By that argument what is the point in arming cops?????? I mean the kid would just shoot them too... right? Did anyone notice as soon as someone started shooting back the kid killed himself. If the guard had been allowed to go to the front door with a gun in his hand instead of just happy thoughts (and a boatload of guts, I don't think I could have done what he did) there would have been many more people alive today.

The Grand Inquisitor
March 29, 2005, 03:05 PM
Arming teachers is only going to increase the amount of firearms within school buildings and will only tempt "bad-seed" students to get these firearms by any means they can (batards will be bastards) and will only breed more violence.

I have strong opinions on school violence and what causes it, but I think it can be readily proved that no matter how many security guards you put in schools and how many metal detectors are in place, kids that are pushed over the edge, will go over, come hell or high water. Having people armed will not make peace - most people who are over the edge are not detered just because they know other people are armed. Also, intimidation is not what we want to teach our children. "If you misbehave...we'll SHOOT YOU" is a lesson that will only terrify kids.

and also - teachers in Israel are NOT armed.

Zach S
March 29, 2005, 04:33 PM
I learned that 4 states allow CCW at schools: Alabama, New Hampshire, Oregon, and Utah. AFAIK, CA does too...

Havegunjoe
March 29, 2005, 04:47 PM
I just had one put on line on this exact topic. If you have time check it out and let me know what you think. Be gentle please, I am not a professional, nor do I get paid for this. Just trying to state my opinion when it comes to guns and gun rights.
Thanks.

www.mnsentinel.com

Standing Wolf
March 29, 2005, 04:53 PM
Clearly, doing nothing doesn't protect students against mindless violence, and laws don't stop criminals from committing murder.

That said™, I'm not sure how far I'd trust the vast majority of union teachers with firearms: are individuals who vote en masse for that Kerry creature responsible enough to be trusted to defend children's lives?

Roc_Kor
March 29, 2005, 04:57 PM
EDIT

Grand Inquisitor, it isn't about intimidation, it's about protection.

And Standing Wolf, only volunteers would arm themselves, other than the guards and cops, which should be mandatory. My wussie liberal math teacher wouldn't want to carry but my Computer teacher would come with his two AR-15s on his back! :D

If the guards and teachers are armed, then they can stop such killers from getting MORE victims. Sure it means a shoot-out will start but at least they could be doing something instead of waiting to die.

The security guards, and hell even the COP at our school are unarmed. Sure, they're big dudes, but they won't stop bullets with their buffed-up bodies. They need to arm them. They need to protect us. There are plenty of gangsta-types and psychos in our school, and guns have been found. Drugs are also rampant.
Of course, if they don't, and when some psycho comes and starts shootin' up the place and they're like, "What can we do about it?" I'll just say:

You can just shut up and wait to die. None of us can do anything. There are people who would rather push their agendas then see you live.

I guarantee, if I brought my AK-47 to school, people would run screaming and ask why no one is armed. But in reality, that would be the safest school in the country, because I wouldn't shoot anyone. I'd just bring it in to do what my government won't do, protect myself, my friends, and my teachers.

End rant. :fire: :D

DigMe
March 29, 2005, 05:20 PM
aving people armed will not make peace - most people who are over the edge are not detered just because they know other people are armed. Also, intimidation is not what we want to teach our children. "If you misbehave...we'll SHOOT YOU" is a lesson that will only terrify kids.

This has gone beyond deterrent. We're talking about saving lives...by allowing the teachers to be armed it could be a last ditch protection when something like this happens. That kid walks into your room with a gun he gets blasted. Makes sense to me, that's how it works in the real world so why not schools? Regarding students trying to get the gun: If the teachers are carrying concealed then the students aren't going to know who's armed and who's not. That's also how it works in the real world. I've been carrying concealed for 2 years or so and I've never once had anyone lift up my shirt and try to take my gun. Of course I don't carry concealed in schools but I've been around all kinds of people.

ANd to say they're going to send the message that "if you misbehave we'll shoot you" is obviously distorting what we're saying.

and also - teachers in Israel are NOT armed.

Are you sure about that because they used to in the 70's. In the mid-70s PLO gunmen were targeting schools for terrorist attacks. Israel's response was to arm teachers and the school attacks stopped.

brad cook

SteveS
March 29, 2005, 06:40 PM
Arming teachers is only going to increase the amount of firearms within school buildings and will only tempt "bad-seed" students to get these firearms by any means they can (batards will be bastards) and will only breed more violence.

I am not sure about this. Many of the school shooting have involved a fair amount of planning and the firearms have been obtained outside of the school. Concealed means concealed, and I doubt that the students would know who is carrying and who isn't. If taking a weapon from someone is a serious concern, then I guess no one should be armed anywhere?

That said™, I'm not sure how far I'd trust the vast majority of union teachers with firearms: are individuals who vote en masse for that Kerry creature responsible enough to be trusted to defend children's lives?

How true, but should we deny that right/responsibility to the teachers that are capable of thinking for themselves. BTW, my teacher wife has never read any literature that the union sends to our house. It goes from the mailbox directly to the trash can.

KAR120C
March 29, 2005, 07:11 PM
Well others have beat me to it, but as I disagree with virtually every point that Grand Inquisitor made I feel compelled to reply anyway:

"Arming teachers is only going to increase the amount of firearms within school buildings"

Yes, but they will be in the hands of the good guys. Thats the whole point. If decreasing the number of guns increases our safety then by all means lets follow your logic and disarm all cops, right...? No I thought not.


"and will only tempt "bad-seed" students to get these firearms by any means they can (batards will be bastards) and will only breed more violence."

As others have pointed out teachers would carry concealed. And only those teachers who wanted to, and could qualify for a CCW would carry. It's far easier for a kid to get a gun on the street and bring it to school than it would be to take a gun off anyone carrying concealed. So this isn't a problem. How does carrying concealed "breed more violence" :scrutiny: . The weapon would only be produced in a life or death situation. These are rare, but (when unarmed) devastating.

"I have strong opinions on school violence and what causes it, but I think it can be readily proved that no matter how many security guards you put in schools and how many metal detectors are in place, kids that are pushed over the edge, will go over, come hell or high water."

If you are saying here that there are things that can be done, other than allowing teachers to carry, to reduce school shooting deaths I whole heartedly agree. I never meant teacher carry to be the one and only response. But not taking the step to allow teachers to protect innocent kids is foolhardy.

"Having people armed will not make peace -"

I never said it would. It will reduce fatalities. That's a good thing.

"most people who are over the edge are not detered just because they know other people are armed. "

That is debatable, but there is no need to do so because even if you are right it is still right to arm teachers because mass murderers are completely and perfectly detered when they are shot to death before they can massacre more kids. Deterence is a nice, but not neccessary bonus. Stopping the murder of children is what it is about.

"Also, intimidation is not what we want to teach our children. "

I agree. So lets stop the bullying that always seems to proceed these shootings. Armed defense by responsible law abiding adults is not "intimidation". It is ludicrous for you to imply it is.

"If you misbehave...we'll SHOOT YOU" is a lesson that will only terrify kids.

OK, this is beyond ludicrous... but lets discuss it technically, here you commit the logical falacy of "The straw man argument". Obviously nobody has made the argument that kids should be shot when they misbehave (i.e. talk in class, throw spit balls, etc...). We are talking about stopping mass murders. Kids know the difference. I would be far more worried that kids would be terrified because so called adults aren't protecting them from murderers.


"and also - teachers in Israel are NOT armed."

Cite a source for that claim please.

Roc_Kor
March 31, 2005, 09:04 PM
Saw my school cop without a gun while on-duty. Lowered my head and shook it. Shame. I don't feel safe like this.

Kelsey
April 1, 2005, 10:45 AM
KAR is dead on correct. Arming teachers in NOT about intimidating students into perfect behaviors, but placing in motion a line of IMMEDIATE defense of the teacher and the class. When you interview a child with the question of who do they trust, most of them state their parents along with their teachers. They look up to them and come to them in times of trouble.

I am cannot understand how a law abiding individual, reguardless of occupational choice, who chooses to carry a firearm in defense is seen as bad. The arugements made "if you missbehave -- we'll shoot you" is far disconnected from reality, however, it is the reaction uninformed or closed minded people have when it comes to firearms. Firearms = Evil. They fail to try and understand the concept of an armed, law abiding public.


Kelsey
www.luvtohunt.com

armoredman
April 1, 2005, 12:04 PM
A teacher with a KelTec P11 clipped inside his jacket, or a Seecamp 32 in a pants pocket holster is a good thing. How many school shooters got into protracted firefights with anyone, in THIS country? Few, if any . How many kill themselves at the first sight/sound of return fire? Most.
Arm the teachers, those willing and able to make the comittment to training and equipment. Arm those other who cannot/will not carry guns, with OC. Hard to shoot people while coghing/hacking/eyes squeezed shut. If you think that is not an option, look at a typical school area, and how many places a hiding person could be within 10 feet of a potential attacker....just a thought.
BTW, do NOT give them Tasers....

DSRUPTV
April 1, 2005, 01:31 PM
KAR120C is right on. I feel that teachers who can qualify with a weapon should be allowed to carry one concealed. This would allow for the protection of helpless students. Police officers in schools often called resource officers should be allowed to have their duty weapon as well. When I was in high school some odd 5 years ago our resource officer carried all of his gear including his duty weapon.

DigMe
April 1, 2005, 02:53 PM
The resources officers at this school and the last school I worked at all carried sidearms.

brad cook

Redneck Revolver
April 1, 2005, 04:32 PM
we need teachers, my school in particular. but that wont happen, too many people flip out unreasonably. you should have seen what happned to me and my buddy just because we OWNED guns. ugly ugly ugly stuff

GEM
April 1, 2005, 04:44 PM
None of you folk who think teachers cannot be trusted to carry, should be allowed to carry guns either. Who knows what kind of irresponsible person you are or your basic intelligence level? So you got a permit, big deal.

Seems fair to me. As I said in other teacher threads, these folks disgust me. I won't bother to repeat myself.

I have a suggestion - if teachers do carry, mark your kid with a special sign that says - TEACHER , TAKE NO ACTION TO PROTECT THIS CHILD.

:fire:

Kelsey
April 1, 2005, 09:29 PM
I just sold an xd-40 to a local teacher. She is single and lives at home and has a desire to protect herself and her interests. I also cut her a pretty a good deal. I am also providing her with a trip down to Front Site with my wife for a little 4 defensive handgun course. That being said, I would feel perfectly comfortable if my child's teacher carried a gun in class.

ksnecktieman
April 1, 2005, 10:09 PM
IF you do not trust your childs teacher to carry a weapon to defend them from an immediate threat to their life, how can you trust them to teach your child to face this world we live in. IF you do not trust your childs teacher to respond to a life threatening situation I think you should demand the school board replace them with someone with better abilities.

Do not pay any attention to me, I have never met a gun control measure I liked, unless you consider "gun control means hitting your target", or "gun control means using both hands".

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