"Gangsta"! firearm buysers/shooters


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The Grand Inquisitor
March 29, 2005, 03:58 PM
I was wondering if any THR'ers have some good stories about our friends with the baggy pants and soggy brains.


Stopped at a Gander Mountain in Indiana after a gun show with my shooting buddy and noticed that they had the Steyr M9 that I was looking for. Being an Illinois resident, I couldn't buy the pistol in Indiana, but all I had to do was some paperwork for Gander Mountain to ship it to one of their IL shops for me to buy it. I was happy as I could be (I'd been looking for the "right" autoloader" for me for about 4 months and thought I would never find what I wanted) and as I was writing out the basic info I was listening in on the conversation of the clerk next to me and his gangsta client (mind you this store was about 15 miles from Gary, Indiana, murder capital, USA) . He was making all of the comical motions like turning it sideways to aim and when pretending to shoot, moving the pistol forward a few inches while saying, "Gat!, Gat, Gat Gat!!!". After doing this, he look at the clerk and said, "dayym, this ????? is dope, these Taurus pistols is the best". When he said this I thought that perhaps this idiot was slightly less of an idiot (I like Taurus pistols), but then he proved me TOTALLY wrong when he continued, playing with the slide button with his thumb, "yeah, I love that they got this little second trigga on the side". My mouth dropped, the mouth of the clerk in from of the idiot dropped, and everyone within earshot ran the sentence over again in their head's to find something that they had misheard, not quite beleiving the words that had heard.

One more: Coming back from another gun show, my buddy and I passed a gun shop we had never seen before so we turned around and popped in (we always like to explore). As we walked in, some rather thuggish young malcontents walked out, giving us the evil eye. Stepping in the door, I couldn't believe what I saw: Uzi's, Mac-10's, Tec-9's, and every other piece of garbage, stamped, pot-metal, semi-automatic machine pistol that had ever been made. Being the curteous gent he is, my buddy said the the guy running the place, "Hi, how are you". "Ok, what you want", said the guy behind the counter. When we said we were just looking around, he left us be while he doddled around doing whatever he was doing when we came in. After being surprised walking in, I was even more surprised when I noticed he had quite a few of the "full auto replacement kits" you see in shady catalouges and even MORE surprised when I saw his prices. I noticed he had a Ruger P95 (which I was interested in buying at the time), "how much is the Ruger"? , "$750".

This went on and on, every pistol, no matter the quality or price, was over $600, and most were nearly a thousand, especially the Glock's. My buddy found out that the AR-15 he had (made by some lower end manufactuer I can't think of right now..)was $3500 and his two Chinese AK's, which were seeverely beat up, ranged between $1800 and $2200. It didn't take us too long to figure out that this place wasn't wise to hang around in too long, but when I saw the flyer on the counter that this guy would "rent" out pistols to customers for a week at a time, I knew it was time to go....and fast.


As a side note - about a year later we found out that this place was closed down by the police after two of his weapons had been found in the commison of a muder.

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mbs357
March 29, 2005, 04:03 PM
Wow, that second gun shop is...weird.

ny32182
March 29, 2005, 04:06 PM
I can't say that I've ever seen anything exactly like that....

I did see about 5 mexican homeboys with one pistol between them taking turns doing some sideways shooting at the range though.

KONY
March 29, 2005, 04:14 PM
Stopped at a Gander Mountain in Indiana after a gun show with my shooting buddy and noticed that they had the Steyr M9 that I was looking for.

FYI, if you want to get some more info about that M9, feel free to visit any of the fine Steyr forums listed below. Lots of great folks on these boards. Some, like myself, also post on THR/TFL.

www.steyrtalk.com
www.steyrclub.com

Old Dog
March 29, 2005, 04:52 PM
to digress a bit (not to totally hijack this thread) -
I noticed he had a Ruger P95 (which I was interested in buying at the time), "how much is the Ruger"? , "$750".

Whoa, dude, in my neck of the woods, these can be had for around $400 ...
and, um ...
and most were nearly a thousand, especially the Glock's.
Up here, we can get most Glocks for under $600 ...

To return to the regularly scheduled thread:

Was shooting out at Kitchen Creek, nat'l forest land off I-8 in East San Diego County (waayy East) a few years back ... had two buddies with me. A couple lower-riders full of young urbanites pulled in near us ... and proceeded to unload a few Tec-9s (pieces of dung) and several shiny wondernines (Berettas, Tauri, S&W 5906s) from the passenger compartments of the vehicles and more than a couple waistbands (bear in mind, this was SoCal) ...

After this chuckleheads demonstrated a total lack of regard for our safety -- by shooting downrange while my buddies and I were fixing targets, we took umbrage to their idiocy, upon which occasion we were threatened, "You wanna get capped, man?" After hastily departing the area (discretion being the better part of valor -- in spite of the fact that we were, in fact, well-armed and well-trained) since we were outnumbered about 8 to 3 and possibly somewhat out-gunned), we notified the Cleveland Nat'l Forest ranger at the station and let him know he should probably have some CHP and SDSD back-up if he was gonna check the situation out.

The Kitchen Creek area was shut down permanently sometime after I left San Diego; don't know if it was ever re-opened for shooting.

Edmond
March 29, 2005, 05:09 PM
Inquisitor,

That second shop didn't happen to be in Sauk Village, did it?

Havegunjoe
March 29, 2005, 05:10 PM
One of these gangsta types was there with two young ladies he was teaching to shoot. The girls were wearing hot pink short shorts, stelleto heels that they almost fell off of when they fired a gun and low cut tops. :what: They were shooting a small caliber auto and a little snub nosed revolver. My guess is that in their line of work they probably needed to learn how to shoot.

Edmond
March 29, 2005, 05:14 PM
One of these gangsta types was there with two young ladies he was teaching to shoot. The girls were wearing hot pink short shorts, stelleto heels that they almost fell off of when they fired a gun and low cut tops. :what: They were shooting a small caliber auto and a little snub nosed revolver. My guess is that in their line of work they probably needed to learn how to shoot.

Yeah, they'd better if their pimp is anything like this guy:

http://www.m90.org/download.php?image_id=3269

Control Group
March 29, 2005, 05:20 PM
The M9 is a nice pistol, and I predict you'll like it. I recommend against running UMC 115gr through it, though: I get FTFs and FTEs with that once every five or so magazines. Before the gun was broken in (around ~500 rounds for me), it would be twice every three or so. WWB has always worked flawlessly.

Back on topic, the only time I've run across a "gangsta" around guns was at a Gander Mountain a little ways from where I work. A guy with the typical baggy pants &c. came in while I was there to pick up a purchase. He asked to look at a pistol (I don't know what it was, I couldn't really see, and he just pointed to it), and the lady behind the counter pulled it out and put it down on the counter without clearing it. He picked it up - again, without clearing it - and looked it over. Apparently, he liked what he saw enough to try sighting down it. On the plus side, he didn't turn it sideways. On the minus side, he was pointing it right at the clerk! :eek: She reacted more calmly than I probably would have, stepping quickly to one side, grabbing the gun and pushing the muzzle to point at the floor. The guy looked pretty surly about it, but didn't seem to say much. I don't know how it all turned out, since I got my gun and got out immediately thereafter.

hrb02
March 29, 2005, 05:29 PM
'Bout 3 weeks ago I was at an unnamed outdoor range here in Sacto minding my own when I noticed a "gangsta" type (id'd by the clothing, etc.) teaching his girlfriend(?) to shoot.

After he had gone through a magazine he reloaded and handed her the gun. She started to aim, then turned to ask him a question, muzzle and all. :eek: :eek: :mad: After my duck and cover I politely :cuss: informed the RSO that i would like to go home with no more holes than God gave me.

To his credit, the RSO rectified the situation and spent most of his time (at least while I was there) standing next to these two--giving them both instruction, I think.

Yikes.

spacemanspiff
March 29, 2005, 05:52 PM
all the alaskan 'gangstas' get their target practice doing drivebys and while committing other crimes. very rarely do they ever show up at the range.

the only time i've ever seen 'homiez' at the range, is the day i was shooting my finest groups. my target had one small, ragged hole, they were apparently shooting body organs in alphabetical order.

another time what i thought were gonna be 'homiez' was actually some shooters with some taste in firearms. i saw the baggy pants and the crooked caps and was gonna write them off as hopeless. but they were shooting colts and kimbers and were not the 'bangers i first assumed them to be.

gat! gat gat gat gat!
thats funny! WA does the same thing, only he yells 'get some!' between shots.

KONY
March 29, 2005, 06:11 PM
The M9 is a nice pistol, and I predict you'll like it. I recommend against running UMC 115gr through it, though: I get FTFs and FTEs with that once every five or so magazines. Before the gun was broken in (around ~500 rounds for me), it would be twice every three or so. WWB has always worked flawlessly.

Control Group,

Where have you been?! You posted about your issues with UMC on SteyrTalk so I offered (low offer, I know :o) to buy your spare 250 rounds but got no response. Guess these rounds are doing better in your M9 now?

The Grand Inquisitor
March 29, 2005, 06:31 PM
Actually I have had my Steyr for about a year and a half or so and I am 100% entirely happy with; I guess the best evidence of my pleasure with the pistol is that I don't have any other 9mm pistols, nor do I have any plans on buying any in the future (and that is saying alot considering how many different firearms I am intersted in).

Edmond - you are entirely correct. Have you ever been in the place? Also, do you have any idea what happens to all of the inventory of the store when the place gets shut down (I'm assuming it has been or will be), because if they auctioned all of the stock off...I imagine there would be some good buys....


KONY - thanks for the Steyr forum's, I've lurked at the Steyr forum at GlockTalk for a year or so, but I've never come across the other. I guess I'll have to go there and listen to everyone talk about their AUG's, which will make me want one even more until the point at which either my head will explode in envy or I will break down and spend 3K on one.


Damned expensive hobby....

Control Group
March 29, 2005, 06:32 PM
KONY...you caught me, and I'm blushing.

I actually haven't been checking steyrtalk/steyrclub a whole lot of late. I did finally see your post some time last week, but I'd already cracked into the box. I've been shooting the occasional magazine of UMC amongst my regular diet of WWB, and it does seem to be doing better. Over my last few times, I've gone through 150 of the UMC rounds, and had one FTF, no FTEs. The round was only lightly dimpled, and fired fine on a second attempt. It's definitely gotten better with the gun breaking in some, but I'm still not going to buy UMC again when I can get WWB for around the same price, and that hasn't failed for me once.

Anyway, I predict you see me on st/sc more again in the near future. I just went through kind of a rough patch regarding computer usage (got very busy at work, and my home PC took a dive), but things are back on a more even keel, now.

El Guero
March 29, 2005, 06:36 PM
The only experience I've had with any kind of gangsta-type at a store was once when some kid (about my age I figure) came in with afro pick and dirty sweat-clothes to look at pistols. He was asking about 17 round clips (during the AWB) which the clerk had to explain weren't available for all guns, hahaha. When the clerk explained the requirements for owning a pistol, the kid whips out his cell phone: "Hey, I need to you to come buy a pistol for me!" *insert yelling from the phone that could be heard 10 yds away* "What do you mean, what do I need it for?!? Just come buy it for me!"

I thought that was pretty funny at the time :p

KONY
March 29, 2005, 06:36 PM
KONY - thanks for the Steyr forum's, I've lurked at the Steyr forum at GlockTalk for a year or so, but I've never come across the other. I guess I'll have to go there and listen to everyone talk about their AUG's, which will make me want one even more until the point at which either my head will explode in envy or I will break down and spend 3K on one.

You're welcome! SteyrClub is only a week in the making, believe it or not! Already over 100+ members. It was started in order to give Steyr afficionados more freedom to make the forum the way they want it. Has been some disagreement over the value of a new forum but I think its nonsense as many of the other major manufacturers have multiple forums.

itgoesboom
March 29, 2005, 06:39 PM
TGI,

I have had a few incidents with "gangsta" shooters. I used to frequent a range where they would often congregate, oddly enough since there was always several LEOs shooting there too.

Usually it would be 2-3 people, different races, baggy clothes, shooting with the pistol sideways, and occasionally hitting the target at 7 yards. :rolleyes: Often times there would be derogatory comments thrown my direction, and sometimes I would overhear comments suggesting possible illicit activities.

To be honest, occasionally, one of these guys would actually be able to hit the reliably. I had a great way of dealing with these guys though.

I have a Ruger .357 blackhawk, which is a fun little pistol to shoot. But loaded with the right rounds, this thing is shockingly loud. My load of choice for this purpose was Cor-Bons 110gr .357 mag loads.

I would wait until a banger was in a string of shots, and in the middle of the string of shots, I would let one loose, trying to time it just a hair before the banger fired. Inevitably, the banger would stop, and try to recompose himself. Ofcourse, the last shot was nowhere near the rest of the group (if you could call that shotgun pattern at 5-7 yards a group). If I was lucky, he wouldn't even hit paper.

I would then wait until after he fired another shot, and would then fire another shot when I thought he was about to take his shot. Sure enough, that show nowhere near the rest of his shots.

I repeated this for a while. Pretty soon, the banger would have a hard time even hitting the paper, because he would be anticipating my shot, and he would have a flinch that would make you think that 9mm was a .500 S&W. :D Even if I didn't fire for a few minutes, his shots would rarely hit the target, and you could see the guy almost jump at every shot.

I figured that helping make a banger less accurate might mean keeping that banger from hitting a cop the next time he is pulled over.

Ofcourse, not long after I had started to do this, that .357 was stolen from me. :mad: Good news though, I did get it back after 3 years.

I.G.B.

KONY
March 29, 2005, 06:45 PM
I have a Ruger .357 blackhawk, which is a fun little pistol to shoot. But loaded with the right rounds, this thing is shockingly loud. My load of choice for this purpose was Cor-Bons 110gr .357 mag loads ... and he would have a flinch that would make you think that 9mm was a .500 S&W.

Just get the 500 ... then you wouldn't even need to fire it. :evil: ... not that you would be able to very much, anyway. :uhoh:

itgoesboom
March 29, 2005, 06:51 PM
Just get the 500 ... then you wouldn't even need to fire it. ... not that you would be able to very much, anyway.

Wish I could afford too, but with a new house, and a baby on the way, I haven't even been able to fire that .357 since I got it back late last year. The only ammo I have for it is still 2 boxes of that "anti-gangsta, big boom" Cor-Bon ammo. :neener: I can't afford to buy anymore ammo for a while.

Maybe for the baby shower members here could send me ammo? :D

I.G.B.

P95Carry
March 29, 2005, 07:51 PM
apparently shooting body organs in alphabetical order. Bwhaha - sorry - that has a certain ring to it! :D Could of course also be somewhat serious!

IGB - you have just come up with the ultimate baby shower formula. Darn it - wish I'd suggested that to my son when he and wife had theirs last year! :evil: :p SO much potential - for real useful stuff LOL!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

BTW - found the .454 or 45-70 in BFR are useful too for ''gaining the attention'' of errant gangsta-boy shooters. M38 will do also when rifles permissible. :D

KONY
March 29, 2005, 08:13 PM
Wish I could afford too, but with a new house, and a baby on the way, I haven't even been able to fire that .357 since I got it back late last year. The only ammo I have for it is still 2 boxes of that "anti-gangsta, big boom" Cor-Bon ammo.

I hear ya! But if you buy a 500, you'll save lots of money on ammo you "just don't feel like shooting today". :D

itgoesboom
March 29, 2005, 08:16 PM
IGB - you have just come up with the ultimate baby shower formula. Darn it - wish I'd suggested that to my son when he and wife had theirs last year! SO much potential - for real useful stuff LOL!

Glad you like the idea.

BTW, you wanna be in charge of organizing it? :D

I.G.B.

Edmond
March 29, 2005, 08:50 PM
Inquisitor,

It was about a year and a half ago that I was in there. I went in there with my buddy. We saw the guns you were describing and were like, "WTH, how can they sell this stuff?"

Was the shop owner the black guy in his late 30's? He was smoking last we went in there and was very stand off-ish. He stayed many feet away from us and looked like he was actually taking half cover.

We asked to see something and he said, "I ain't takin' nothin' out unless you guys got 600 dollas cash fo me." We walked right out.

Yeah, we saw those gangsta types walk in there and should've known better. I bet that guy sold without any regard for any laws. We also should've known better because one of the low lifes that we went to high school with recommended that shop.

I said to my buddy, "With that attitude, that guy will probably get shut down or killed before too long."

Phantom Warrior
March 29, 2005, 09:07 PM
After he had gone through a magazine he reloaded and handed her the gun. She started to aim, then turned to ask him a question, muzzle and all.


In all fairness, I did the same thing to my best friend the first time I fired a handgun. Back when I was about 16 or 17. Handguns are so small compared to a rifle it's easy to turn and point it at someone if you haven't gotten safety habits down yet. Needless to say, I haven't done it since.

Tom Servo
March 29, 2005, 10:10 PM
I usually "profile" more by behavior than anything else. I've seen clean-cut types make total (and sometimes, dangerous) idiots out of themselves, and I've seen some "banger" types who I'd definitely want on my side when the excrement hits the rotating blades :)

About a year ago, I was at a range in a sketchy part of town. A banger-looking type and his girlfriend set up in the lane next to me. While I was reloading, the guy handed his girlfriend a gun. I heard one shot, then she yelled "OH $%&* YEAH!" Then six more rapid shots. Then, "Nice, but it shoots a little low."

I looked over at the target. Seven shots, 3" 1911 @ 30 feet, 3-inch group. About an inch low of the bullseye. Wow.

Even better, they left behind me, and she gave her boyfriend a firm lecture about "sweepin' up your own damn brass...this ain't your crib."

Just goes to show.

KONY
March 29, 2005, 10:13 PM
I usually "profile" more by behavior than anything else. I've seen clean-cut types make total (and sometimes, dangerous) idiots out of themselves, and I've seen some "banger" types who I'd definitely want on my side when the excrement hits the rotating blades

Excellent point!

craig
March 29, 2005, 10:26 PM
seen one of those about 4 or 5 years ago at my local range. he was side shooting a 9mm. don't know what kind because after his 4th or 5th shot i was laughing too hard to notice. he was popping them off pretty quick when one of the empties bounced off the ceiling and hit him square in the right eye. unfortunately he had a bro with him who picked up his gun after he started crying and dropped it. he hasn't been back since.

George Hill
March 29, 2005, 10:32 PM
New Style:

buy guns
March 29, 2005, 10:55 PM
i hope you guys arent calling people gang bangers because they are black and wear baggy clothes (which just happens to be the popular attire among young blacks).

doing that would make you sound awefully similiar to the kind of people who talk about gun owners like they are all white trash rednecks.

Edmond
March 29, 2005, 11:04 PM
i hope you guys arent calling people gang bangers because they are black and wear baggy clothes (which just happens to be the popular attire among young blacks).

doing that would make you sound awefully similiar to the kind of people who talk about gun owners like they are all white trash rednecks.

I don't think the guys here are calling people gang bangers because they are young black guys who wear baggy clothes.

I wear baggy clothes and I'm not white. I'm not a gang banger.

craig
March 29, 2005, 11:05 PM
well, when they pull in driving a lowered boom car listening to rap and dressed like bangers it doesn't matter what race they are. if they act,dress,talk and shoot like a banger what do you expect people to think?

UberPhLuBB
March 29, 2005, 11:08 PM
i hope you guys arent calling people gang bangers because they are black and wear baggy clothes (which just happens to be the popular attire among young blacks).

doing that would make you sound awefully similiar to the kind of people who talk about gun owners like they are all white trash rednecks.

I'm sure they're talking about folks who hold handguns sideways, scream obscenities and grab their crotches in public to acknowledge one another regardless of their surroundings (resturaunts, movies, banks) and wear obnoxiously impractical clothing, to the point of being impared of movement (I've seen people have to hike their pants up and hold them with both hands at chest level just to jog).

I see nothing wrong with the black community, but there are bad apples in every orchard. Black people aren't exempt because they're black. You can't force yourself NOT to form an opinion about someone based on the color of their skin, that would be as equally racist as outward racism. "That guy's black, so I won't say anything about him screaming at his homeys in this resturaunt."

I've got no problem with anyone's skin color, clothing type or preference for firearms. But I do have a problem with very bad manners, be it at the range or elsewhere.

KONY
March 29, 2005, 11:11 PM
The guy George posted qualifies as a banger type so no race cards need to be pulled.

The Rabbi
March 29, 2005, 11:11 PM
We had one guy walk into the store with his seedy buddies. All the usual attire. He picked out a Romanian AK-type rifle. First he wanted his mom to buy it but we "persuaded" him that that wasnt going to happen. He paid for it with wadded up 10s and 20s. As we were keying in the NICS check we all looked at each other with a "this will be hold for LEO for sure." Darn if he didnt get an instant approval. He started to walk out with the gun under his long coat. We told him "buddy, this is a gun store. Everyone knows what you're doing here." I didnt hear that the gun was later used to commit a crime but it sure wouldnt surprise me.

Sylvilagus Aquaticus
March 29, 2005, 11:15 PM
A couple of weeks ago Alduro and I were at Ray's Hardware in Dallas perusing the pretties when a couple of young gentlemen- maybe no older than 24 or so- with a cute child of maybe two years of age came in. The taller of the two gentlemen produced a new stainless S&W self-loader from the back pocket of his sweatpants and inquired of the counterman regarding the possibility of purchasing 'a clip' for it. Seems 'he'd lost his' and needed a replacement.

Now I don't know S&W pistols well enough to ID them by model number on sight, but this was obviously a SA/DA stainless model and appeared to be chambered in .45ACP. I know this because the muzzle was swept in our direction several times. The counterman produced a new in the wrapper factory magazine and stated the price to the inquirer, who balked at paying the $30 price quoted.

Alduro and I put a little more distance between the parties and ourselves upon hearing him protest so vehemently over the price of a magazine for what appeared to be a pistol that would retail for perhaps $750. The two gentlemen left before we did, without purchasing a magazine for the Smith, but not before checking out the Glocks and nickled 1911's. No sale on those, either.

Swallow a camel but choke on a gnat. Maybe it's just me, but if I have a pistol that needs magazines and has none, I buy multiples when I find them to make it somewhat more functional than a hammer.

Now, in a semi-unrelated story, I was on the light rail heading to work one morning and a young gentleman wearing oversized athletic fleece apparel stood up for his stop and promptly gave everyone in the car a demonstration of gravity when his bottoms slid off and the nickeled .25 in his pocket flopped onto the floor and into the stairwell as the door opened. As soon as the door closed behind him and he'd regained his composure, gat, and trousers the 3 or 4 riders around me who noticed split a rib laughing all the way to the next stop.

Regards,
Rabbit.

KONY
March 29, 2005, 11:18 PM
Darn if he didnt get an instant approval. He started to walk out with the gun under his long coat. We told him "buddy, this is a gun store. Everyone knows what you're doing here." I didnt hear that the gun was later used to commit a crime but it sure wouldnt surprise me.

Call me stupid (just kidding here, ok?) but if he got an instant approval (barring identity theft) then he was obviously ok, right? I figure, if you've got a clean enough record to get an instant approval then what's the big deal? :confused:

The Rabbi
March 29, 2005, 11:22 PM
Funny you should say that.

OTOH, my plumber, a decent guy in his 30s with his own business,wife, and kids, was denied because of a stunt he pulled when he was 17 (trespassing in an abandoned house). there is no justice.

Of course if the guy did use the gun in a crime then of course it is the dealer's fault for selling it to him. Hey. the dealer shoulda known what he wanted to do with it!

KONY
March 29, 2005, 11:26 PM
a young gentleman wearing oversized athletic fleece apparel stood up for his stop and promptly gave everyone in the car a demonstration of gravity when his bottoms slid off and the nickeled .25 in his pocket flopped onto the floor and into the stairwell as the door opened. As soon as the door closed behind him and he'd regained his composure, gat, and trousers the 3 or 4 riders around me who noticed split a rib laughing all the way to the next stop.

I'd split a rib too! I mean, jeez, what's he gonna do with a ".25"?!! :neener:

Sylvilagus Aquaticus
March 29, 2005, 11:29 PM
Kony, not only that, but him stooping to pick up his trousers, stumbling, kicked the pistol off the step through the door and tripping over his pants and untied atheletic shoes was probably what topped the whole thing.

Besides, is a Raven gonna be any less functional after you drop it?

Regards,
Rabbit.

EVIL5LITER
March 29, 2005, 11:31 PM
After being surprised walking in, I was even more surprised when I noticed he had quite a few of the "full auto replacement kits" you see in shady catalouges and even MORE surprised when I saw his prices.

I've seen these before and wondered if they were actually legit, or just a scam....

The Rabbi
March 29, 2005, 11:32 PM
Besides, is a Raven gonna be any less functional after you drop it?

Go ahead and make of fun of it. Here a Nashville cop got into a shootout with a guy armed with a Raven .25 with Cor-bons. the officer shot about 4 or 5 times, hitting the guy every time. The BG shot back with his Raven. The bullet entered just under the guy's vest, went between his ribs, pierced his heart and lodged in a lung. Officer died at the scene. BG limped away and holed up in a hotel room for several days before his family got concerned and called PD to take him to the hospital.

Mr Bangdango
March 29, 2005, 11:44 PM
I wish I could get an instant aproval..gesh..oh well. I think that all this stuff about profiling and race is crazy. If it walks like a duck and it quacks like a duck then it probably is a duck. First impresions are all we usually have when sizing up an individual. That being said I have a good friend of mine from high school that is involved with that life style. I take him with me to the range sometimes and it's a lot of fun to watch him shoot. Holds the pistol sideways and even adds a lil thrust every time he pulls the trigger. Holds his crotch the whole time he's shooting too. LOL This guy wouldn't hurt a fly. He looks real intimidating though. He wears all the clothes that would indicate he was a gangsta and even has a mouth full of gold teeth. He works hard and is building a nice little family. I tell him that by adopting these styles he is severly limiting himself socally but he doesn't care. It's the norm in his neck of the woods anyway. To each his own I say.

KONY
March 29, 2005, 11:49 PM
Go ahead and make of fun of it. Here a Nashville cop got into a shootout with a guy armed with a Raven .25 with Cor-bons. the officer shot about 4 or 5 times, hitting the guy every time. The BG shot back with his Raven. The bullet entered just under the guy's vest, went between his ribs, pierced his heart and lodged in a lung. Officer died at the scene. BG limped away and holed up in a hotel room for several days before his family got concerned and called PD to take him to the hospital.

"Even a broken clock is right twice a day".

another48hrs
March 30, 2005, 12:52 AM
I was at a gunshow a couple weeks ago and was looking at a s&w m10 snubnose, just lifting it slightly because it was tied together with everything else on the proprietors table. Everything was going well till all of a sudden the m10 flew out of my hands and everything else on the guys table jumped up as this guy (who fits the description of this thread) picks up a desert eagle without thinking.

"Wow, check this out a deagle!", "Yeah, too bad it isn't gold."

The guy behind the table was trying to be nice and tell him that the guns are tied, but there was 5 of them and they all did the same thing. The poor dealer asked them to put it down and when they did they nicked up a really nice high standard 22 in the proccess.

I had to hand it to the guy that he had some patience, and chose the high road, especially with these guys. Even after they asked him to sell his glock 19 for $100 bucks because so and so's grandmother bought one for that much down the street. :D

peacefuljeffrey
March 30, 2005, 06:02 AM
As a side note - about a year later we found out that this place was closed down by the police after two of his weapons had been found in the commison of a muder.


Um, this guy didn't happen to say anything about a "gimp" while you were in this nightmarish store, did he?... :uhoh:


-Jeffrey

KONY
March 30, 2005, 10:57 AM
Um, this guy didn't happen to say anything about a "gimp" while you were in this nightmarish store, did he?

Now you know Marsellus Wallace took care of that guy already, right? :neener:

Onmilo
March 30, 2005, 11:18 AM
Some of my very best customers are banger types.
They wear the clothes, can talk the talk and are quite knowledgable of firearms, more so than many of my redneck customers.
These banger types also own their own business, pay their taxes on time, and can pass a drug test, blood or urine.
These guys buy Glocks, 1911s, and AR15s, not Jennings, Tec9s, and Brycos.
Don't judga a book by de cover.
Their money is just as green as everybody elses.

Spreadfire Arms
March 30, 2005, 11:21 AM
i was at a gun range outside of Austin, TX, with a buddy of mine. three gang bangers were a few lanes over taking turns shooting a Jennings .22 and a Hi-Point 9mm. they were shooting gangsta style (tilted)

my friend let loose on a MP5K-N and they just about pooped themselves :what:

i was laughing at how funny their faces were when they figured out that their little guns weren't so mean after all. they politely smiled, and left a few minutes afterwards. i don't know if it was due to them already planning on leaving, running out of ammo, etc., but it was kind of funny.

the Sheriff's SWAT Team was also there training, so the gangbangers didn't try anything like, "Hey Vato can I shoot that?"

armoredman
March 30, 2005, 11:23 AM
When I worked as an RSO at an indoor range, we used to get all kinds. Groups would come in, with waves of marijuana smoke pouring out of them.
"Heeeey, can I, like rent a gun?"
" No, leave now."
Gangbangers would walk in, and try to imress thier girlfriends by shoving their cheap POS at the target while firing, and extra FPS maybe? They were invariably the worst shots I ever saw.
One idiot asked me if we did firearms repair, and when I said yes, he produced a Tec 9 with a broken frame! Snapped clean behind the magwell all the way across. I had to tell him the gun was a total loss, and he thought we could GLUE it back together!
I would not judge people by skin color or race, but when they dress/talk/act/smell the "steretype", then it's not my fault for making an obvious connection! Remember the old "walks like a duck, quacks like a duck" theory?

KONY
March 30, 2005, 11:23 AM
Some of my very best customers are banger types ... Don't judga a book by de cover. Their money is just as green as everybody elses.

Just plain ol' sense, both common and business-wise. :cool:

Tinker
March 30, 2005, 12:39 PM
Saggin' britches....reminds me of something cute my daughter said.

My youngest daughter and I saw this older teen boy walking by. His pants were so big he had to walk around holding them up with one hand.

My girl says:"He either needs a belt or a butt." :)

Edmond
March 30, 2005, 12:45 PM
Onmilo,

Where is your shop located at? If it's close, I'll have to visit. E-mail me if it's easier: edmond.edmondlau@gmail.com :D

Gordon Fink
March 30, 2005, 12:53 PM
I wish the ’bangers and ’necks weren’t strapped, but since they carry heavy, I’d better do it, too.

~G. Fink

38SnubFan
March 30, 2005, 01:21 PM
"What do you mean, what do I need it for?!? Just come buy it for me!" Hmmm....now I remember why I carry EVERYDAY, and almost EVERYWHERE! :D :eek: :uhoh:

moby clarke
March 30, 2005, 09:56 PM
About 2 years ago I was in a local shop when 4 young males enter. They wander around a bit and then one says to a salesman, "Yo, man, we needs some jack." The sales guys asks what "jack" means, when the young male whips out what was discovered to be a small .25 and says "bullets, man, ya know, jack." He then finds himself the target of 4 pistols and a shot gun from 4 sales guys and a customer. He quickly drops his gun and the 4 of them run out. I hit the floor behind a display as I did not have my CCW yet. One guy picks up the pistol and thankfully it was not loaded. The shop has since closed.

The Rabbi
March 30, 2005, 10:11 PM
Down here "jack" means money. If he came into a gun store wanting "jack" and whipped out a gun he wouldn't be around to talk about it.

Phantom Warrior
March 30, 2005, 10:40 PM
My youngest daughter and I saw this older teen boy walking by. His pants were so big he had to walk around holding them up with one hand.



At the Dining Services I see a lot of guys wearing really loose shorts or windpants so far down that the waistband is completely below their butt. I wonder how they stay up. These aren't bangers, either. Just jocks that won't pull up their pants. Makes me want to yank 'em down around their ankles every time I get an eyeful. :cuss:

Edmond
March 30, 2005, 11:39 PM
Here, jack means to rob!

38SnubFan
March 31, 2005, 02:57 AM
Makes me want to yank 'em down around their ankles every time I get an eyeful. HAHAHA! Been there, done that to a couple of 'em!

peacefuljeffrey
March 31, 2005, 04:09 AM
Some of my very best customers are banger types.
They wear the clothes, can talk the talk and are quite knowledgable of firearms, more so than many of my redneck customers.
These banger types also own their own business, pay their taxes on time, and can pass a drug test, blood or urine.
These guys buy Glocks, 1911s, and AR15s, not Jennings, Tec9s, and Brycos.
Don't judga a book by de cover.
Their money is just as green as everybody elses.


I fly an interstellar space ship. Really.
My interstellar space ship has two wings, a piston engine, a propeller, tricycle landing gear, and says Cessna on the tail. What? Oh, yeah, maybe it is just an airplane. :rolleyes:

What you have described is simply not a "banger," by definition. "Poseur," maybe, but not a "banger."

-Jeffrey

The Grand Inquisitor
March 31, 2005, 05:19 AM
I do want to clear up that when I made this post I did not make it to refer to blacks, or any other ethnic group for that matter, but rather for the entire sub-culture of dopes who listen to bad music and point their guns sideways.

I could have just as easily made a thread about inbred hill-folk who are also dangerous with their firearms.

Come to think of it...here's a story about those idiots....


At a nice out of the way range in Ioowa where you could bring garbage to shoot at these "people" brought a propane tank down range and started to shoot at it with their nasty, cheap, uncleaned SKS. It didn't bother me until I overheard them talking about how "wicked" it was going to be when it exploded. I was worried that this thing was full so I stopped them and asked if it was full and Hillbilly Jim calmed my nerves and told me that they would never shoot at a full propane tank at this range (about 50 or 60 yards)...but that I shouldn't worry because this tank was only half full.

Needless to say I packed my stuff up, and I was half hoping to hear an explosion while driving away...but no such luck.

thorn726
March 31, 2005, 05:41 AM
the other side of this ridiculous coin is all the gangsters out there, white . black, every color, that tlka about shooting, claim to have guns, tlak abou tkilling etc, and have never even seen a real gun.
heheh.
more than once i have had idiots lift their shirt and pretend to be reaching for something that so obviuosly was NOT there.

Hellbore
March 31, 2005, 05:57 AM
the other side of this ridiculous coin is all the gangsters out there, white . black, every color, that tlka about shooting, claim to have guns, tlak abou tkilling etc, and have never even seen a real gun.

This seems to be rather common around where I live. I see a lot of ganster-looking types that don't have guns but act tough and hostile towards everyone. When they see I am actually carrying a real gun they look like they just shat themselves.

TinCup
March 31, 2005, 10:50 AM
I was at my local indoor range a couple of weeks ago and witnessed a shocker. A young 20 something guy was teaching two very attractive young women to shoot (both were dressed in short skirts and stiletto heels) BTW.

The guy was teaching the girls to shoot with the gun turned sideways. The shocking part was when he turned around to fully face me and I see the badge clipped on his belt...he was a DC Police Officer!

Crownvicman
March 31, 2005, 11:29 AM
Tincup, well he was a DC cop. Be glad he knew which end the bullets came out of. :rolleyes:

Werewolf
March 31, 2005, 01:11 PM
He then finds himself the target of 4 pistols and a shot gun from 4 sales guys and a customer. He quickly drops his gun and the 4 of them run out. Man! I would give anything to have been there and seen that. Probably would have started laughing right then and there when the fool dropped his gun. :D

That incident is proof positive that some people are just too stupid to live.

Brad Johnson
March 31, 2005, 05:48 PM
I will never, ever, forget the faces of four wannabe bangers at the range a couple years ago. They were next to me and, suprisingly, were being relatively safe and only mildly obnoxious. Then someone showed up with a new Serbu light .50. They didn't know what it was but I sure as heck did! The guy set up a couple of benches down. All the while these kids were eying the big 'Bu and making all kinds of silly remarks trying to "out gangsta" each other.

Needless to say they all crowded up in a big ball at the bench next to this guy as he was hunkering down to fire. That's when I noticed that they all had their muffs in their hands, not on their heads. I didn't have time to yell at them to put their ears on before the shot. Chaos. Yelling. Screaming like little girls. Holding their ears. Picking up do-rags. Brushing the sand out of their hair. And one guy lost two of his press-on "gold teeth" from the muzzle blast.

They left.

Brad

peacefuljeffrey
April 1, 2005, 01:50 AM
Brad, I reallllly like that story. :D

-Jeffrey

Ukraine Train
April 1, 2005, 10:24 AM
About a year ago I was at an indoor range and three guys at the last stall were shooting a rental, sideways of course. I think they hit the side wall more than the target. I was thinking about giving them some tips but then decided that they might be shooting at me down the road sometime so I changed my mind.

jpIII
April 1, 2005, 10:53 AM
This isn't a first hand story, but my buddy who works at a range witnessed the incident first hand.

2 guys came in with a desert eagle in .50ae. The older of the two was in his mid 20's and the youger was about 9-12. The younger kept wanting to shoot the "deagle".

Finally, when it was his turn, he promptly held it sideways, onehanded, and fired. His elbow bent, and he smacked himself in the forehead with it.

I think he's pretty lucky he didn't hit himself in the eye.

hilljack22
April 1, 2005, 01:18 PM
Years ago, I was in a sandwich shop around a shady part of Indianapolis with a buddy. A kid in an oversized coat and do-rag comes in, and starts asking a lot of questions. "How much is that sandwich? Can I get it with this and not that?" All the while, kind of jerking around and looking very nervous. He finally jerks around one time too many and the snubby revolver he had stuck in his pants falls to the ground. He picks it up and runs out the door.

Turns out the guy had been in there three or four times that night, possibly casing the place. I told the employees they may want to call the cops, and my buddy and I promptly left with our food.

(BTW-This incident is what made me get my CHL).

Onmilo
April 1, 2005, 01:27 PM
Remember, only the very best and brightest are incarcerated now and only because the were targeted by "The Man",,,,,,,,,
It is sad to me that these young guys never had the guidance to allow them to see the folly of their actions.
It is a pity that twenty five is considered old age to these pillars of modern society.
It is also a shame that our modern Army, the best and most powerful in the world is run by a bunch of failed lawyers who treat a war as an ongoing crime scene,,,,Oh well :)

Hkmp5sd
April 1, 2005, 02:39 PM
Someone had to post this old pic.....


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v495/Hkmp5sd/gangsta.jpg

jwmoore
April 1, 2005, 03:34 PM
I was checking out a local gun shop last summer while a banger type was looking at pistols. The clerk handed him a SIG 226 and said "See how that feels in your hand". Customer promply sticks the handgun in the rear waistband of his running shorts. Clerk says "I said see how it feels in your hand, not in your pants!" :D

~W

The Rabbi
April 1, 2005, 03:40 PM
We had that flyer around the store and some homeboy saw it and wanted them for his Glock...

72Rover
April 1, 2005, 03:46 PM
Do you know why these gangsta types hold the piece sideways?


'Cause that's how it came in the box.... :D

Tinkerer
April 1, 2005, 04:15 PM
One of my shooting buddies was at our local indoor range when a gangsta-type came in to try out his brand new Glock. After setting up his target and shooting two full mag through the gun (held sideways and pushing the gun to help get the bullets started) he had maybe 4 hole in the paper. He cussed a blue streak about getting his money back when my friend offered to look at if for him. My buddie shot a full mag through the gun with each shot in the 10 or X of a standard B2. Good stance, good sight picture, proper gun handling. ;) After the gun was empty, my buddy gave it back to the gangsta, whereby the gangsta threw it down on the concrete floor, swore at it, threw it back into the box and stormed out of the range. :what: My friend never did find out what happened.

Tinkerer
April 1, 2005, 04:17 PM
One of my shooting buddies was at our local indoor range when a gangsta-type came in to try out his brand new Glock. After setting up his target and shooting two full mags through the gun (held sideways and pushing the gun to help get the bullets started) he had maybe 4 holes in the paper. He cussed a blue streak about getting his money back when my friend offered to look at it for him. My buddy shot a full mag through the gun with each shot in the 10 or X of a standard B2. Good stance, good sight picture, proper gun handling. ;) After the gun was empty, my buddy gave it back to the gangsta, whereby the gangsta threw it down on the concrete floor, swore at it, threw it back into the box and stormed out of the range. :what: My friend never did find out what happened.

Sawdust
April 1, 2005, 04:55 PM
Trigger control, Tinkerer, trigger control. :neener: :D

Sawdust

keyhole
April 1, 2005, 05:25 PM
Tinkerer

ROFLMAO!!!


I have a friend, who got home in KC one Sunday, after being at the range. Several "would be's" walked up to him, and told him "Nice car, now how about giving it to us?" He replied, ok, and opened up the trunk, and pulled his Garand, and chambered a round. They all started bacing up, and he told them where each of them lived. The asked him why he said that, and he told them that he knew each of them, and nothing had better happen to his car. They promptly bugged out. :evil:

He also had a run in with a pint sized one. This one wanted to know why he was painting over a stop sign that had been "tagged". The half-pint, told him it was his sign, and my friend told him that he paid taxes, and it was his sign. The half-pint opened his jacket to show a chrome plated pistol, whereupon my friend pulled a Ruger Security Six 6" out of his bib overalls. :what: The younger one also bugged out promptly.

DontBurnMyFlag
April 1, 2005, 05:29 PM
i never understood gangstas obessions with "throwing the bullets" or pushing the gun forward. It doesnt make any sense. and what is their obession with 25 autos. Things I will never know.

DontBurnMyFlag
April 1, 2005, 05:32 PM
this one gangsta sells glocks for 85 dollars. he tucks it in his pants and goes around robbing people sometimes. he lifts up his shirt and says, "let me get 5 dollars for Wendys" :eek: he robs people for money for burgers!!! and his mom gives him 300 dollars a month to buy clothes and whatnot. needless to say, he cant shoot, nor has ever shot at anybody.

wasrjoe
April 1, 2005, 05:32 PM
Don'tBurn, they just never got the memo that we moved on from spears. Come on now, these aren't really advanced, civilized people here. No one has the heart to tell them the bullets throw themselves.

I wonder how these guys would look using a bow? Hmmmm...

secamp32
April 1, 2005, 05:52 PM
The worse shots they are the better.

I never thought I'd say this but we don't have these issues in NY. You need to show a pistol permit to use a range so bangers can't practice there.

Tom Servo
April 1, 2005, 06:38 PM
Years ago, I was in a sandwich shop around a shady part of Indianapolis with a buddy. A kid in an oversized coat and do-rag comes in, and starts asking a lot of questions. "How much is that sandwich? Can I get it with this and not that?" All the while, kind of jerking around and looking very nervous. He finally jerks around one time too many and the snubby revolver he had stuck in his pants falls to the ground. He picks it up and runs out the door.
I've had several situations like that. Favorite was a guy who had a Jennings .22 stuck in the back of his pants. He tried to hold up a place I worked. He called the cashier (a big, middle-age single mother) something unprintable and demanded the money in the register. Her response was even more colorful, and she dared him to back up his threat. He then reached back and yanked on the gun with his finger in the trigger-guard. I was in the next room, and all I heard was a pop and some girlish screeching. When Fulton Co. police showed up, the perp asked if they were going to call an ambulance, and one of the officers stopped laughing long enough to say, "yeah, in a minute, I guess."

On another occasion, I was in a really scummy supermarket called Ingle's, and the twitchy redneck in front of me in line reached into his pocket to retrieve his gun (a Rossi .38) and it slipped and fell to the floor. This is rural Georgia. Everyone packs. Much hilarity ensued. Bad guy was smart enough not to try and pick it up. (I remember the "security guard" being shocked that there were so many armed people in his store, and after several of us had our guns out for at least ten seconds, he woke up and started wildly shouting at US to "freeze! Drop your weapons!" Yeah, right.)

A third time was in a convenience store. The robber had come in and demanded all the money (in the middle of the afternoon). The clerk refused, at which point the robber pulled out his gun and slapped it on the counter, saying "that's why." The clerk simply grabbed it. The robber protested, and the clerk replied that the robber was welcome to call the police if he wanted.

I swear, despite the amount of criminal activity in Atlanta, it's a good thing the majority of them are dumb as stumps :)

STW
April 1, 2005, 08:13 PM
It doesnt make any sense. and what is their obession with 25 autos. Things I will never know.

Maybe it harkens back to the crime noir movies and books from the 1930's. The Philip Marlows of the world and their protagonists all seemed to favor small caliber automatics. I don't recall reading about anything larger than a .32 in any of Dashell Hammett's or Raymond Chandler's books. <g>

one45auto
April 1, 2005, 08:28 PM
We used to have a "gangsta" wannabe working at our firm about four years ago. God only knows how he got hired (probably to fill some quota) but he was always talking street slang and walking around with baggy drawers, excessive jewelry, dreadlocks, etc.

Anyway, one evening we were talking about firearms and I asked what motivated gangbangers to hold the gun sideways. His explanation was that by holding it in that fashion you could shoot as if your were punching someone, and even made a point of demonstating the technique with an empty hand. I was tempted to point out how inaccurate and ridiculous such a tactic was, but then I didn't want to improve his shooting. If I'm ever placed in a situation where I am forced to defend myself, I hope and pray that the little miscreant holds similar beliefs about canting the gun sideways.

Strings
April 2, 2005, 01:19 AM
We once figured out what was with the whole "sideways" thing. Mom's first pistol was some oddball brand (don't remember what, just remember "discussing" their making a choice without asking for an opinion first). Funny thing was, this pistol wouldn't cycle unless it was held sideways (truthfully, almost upside-down). So we figured that was what was behind the "gangsta" thing: they used cheap guns, and needed the grav assist to get them to feed...

peacefuljeffrey
April 2, 2005, 05:45 AM
this one gangsta sells glocks for 85 dollars. he tucks it in his pants and goes around robbing people sometimes. he lifts up his shirt and says, "let me get 5 dollars for Wendys" he robs people for money for burgers!!! and his mom gives him 300 dollars a month to buy clothes and whatnot. needless to say, he cant shoot, nor has ever shot at anybody.


Okay, tell me with a straight face that you wouldn't be gratified to find out this guy got his ass shot and killed. What a piece of sh*t. :rolleyes:


-Jeffrey

Matthew748
April 2, 2005, 07:55 AM
A couple of years back I was along side a group of real shady characters at public range. Something was very wrong with one of the pistols (a 1911 clone if I remember correctly) they were shooting. Every fourth round or so it would jam up. When this would happen, a member of the group would walk up to the shooter’s side and start whacking the slide until it cleared. The shooter would then go about his merry way and finish whatever was left in the magazine.

Edmond
April 2, 2005, 11:21 AM
Matthew,

This wouldn't have happened to have been Chucks in Riverdale, would it?

I refuse to go into that place. Just being in Riverdale tells me that I should know better.

Redneck Revolver
April 2, 2005, 12:38 PM
one time someone attempted to mug me and my buddy. before i continue let me tell you this was in detroit, somewhere i prefer not to go unarmed. anyways my friend is a bit older and has his CCW. unfortunatly the BG came from around a corner produced his pistol (sidways of course) about 6 inches from my freinds face. my friend has been through alot of dangerous activities and is former united states marine, so he reacts in a calm manner and asks "what model pistol is that?" to my utter shock at the bangers stupidity he turns the gun sideways to look at the model name and caliber. at that time my freind presses the magazine release button and grabs the magazine. he then proceeds to unholster his HK mk23 and says in a almost demonic voice "im sure you know how many bodies they find around here, one more wouldnt make much of a differance would it?" he then tell the bastard to bugger off in less polite terms. needless to say afterwards we got out of there ASAP. we had a good laugh later that night. i still can't beleive he actually looked at the model name. :D

The Rabbi
April 2, 2005, 09:39 PM
Okay, tell me with a straight face that you wouldn't be gratified to find out this guy got his ass shot and killed. What a piece of sh*t.

And that's from "PeacefulJeffrey"???? :D

Glock19Fan
April 3, 2005, 12:25 AM
I was at the range a few months ago when I saw a couple of Mexicans (not racist BTW) shooting some guns, a 9mm and .40 (the only gun I remember looked like a Ruger CF semi auto). They had the huge man sized targets with empty space stretching the overall width to about 3 feet. They werent holding the gun sizeways, but instead they were just holding the gun in the general direction and PULLING the trigger. I dont even think they know there are sites on guns. :scrutiny: There were a few lucky hits on the center of the target, but out of several hundred rounds, they only hit the entire paper a few dozen times.

I dont see many "gangster" types in the range too often, although I see them occasionally at the front looking at the guns.

peacefuljeffrey
April 3, 2005, 07:31 AM
And that's from "PeacefulJeffrey"????


Heh, I get that a lot. :D

Hey, even the peaceful (notice, I did not say "pacifist"!) can be pushed too far, you know.

Look up the name "Jeffrey" and you find it means "Heavenly Peace: Blessed One." That was on a bookmark my mom once bought me, and I liked it, so that's what I used. I do believe peace is a worthy concept toward which to strive.

Watch your ass, 'cause somewhere out there probably is a dude calling himself "NastyEvilBellicoseJeffrey," and he probably CCWs too. :p

-Jeffrey

spartacus2002
April 3, 2005, 09:22 AM
NastyEvilBellicoseJeffrey

Met him; he's a wuss :D

wasrjoe
April 3, 2005, 06:43 PM
one time someone attempted to mug me and my buddy. before i continue let me tell you this was in detroit, somewhere i prefer not to go unarmed. anyways my friend is a bit older and has his CCW. unfortunatly the BG came from around a corner produced his pistol (sidways of course) about 6 inches from my freinds face. my friend has been through alot of dangerous activities and is former united states marine, so he reacts in a calm manner and asks "what model pistol is that?" to my utter shock at the bangers stupidity he turns the gun sideways to look at the model name and caliber. at that time my freind presses the magazine release button and grabs the magazine. he then proceeds to unholster his HK mk23 and says in a almost demonic voice "im sure you know how many bodies they find around here, one more wouldnt make much of a differance would it?" he then tell the bastard to bugger off in less polite terms. needless to say afterwards we got out of there ASAP. we had a good laugh later that night. i still can't beleive he actually looked at the model name.

So, your friend CCWs a MK23? Those things are monstrous. And the bad guy still had a round in the chamber, why didn't he shoot at you then? And your friend pressed the mag release button... he must be very fast. The banger didn't try to fight at all when he was reaching for the magazine release?

DontBurnMyFlag
April 3, 2005, 11:29 PM
you dont have to pick his story apart. what does he have to gain by lying to us. i know alot of it sounds unbelievable, but give em the benefit of the doubt. they make some version of the mk23 with a 4.5 barrel i think. It cuts the size down. and all the marines i know, are very quick with their hands. im just sayin is all. :cool:

wolf_from_wv
April 3, 2005, 11:53 PM
Maybe when he dropped the mag, he was hoping it had a magazine disconnect... I'd prefer someone shooting at me to only have one round available, and would hope they would miss with that one.

mfree
April 4, 2005, 10:34 AM
Utter shock factor. Wouldn't you be a little perturbed if someone was quick enough to snag your mag while you were *holding* the gun?

Hellbore
April 4, 2005, 12:29 PM
I dunno, this story sounds too much like a movie to me. If I was lucky enough to distract the guy like that (remembering he is holding a loaded gun on me), I think I would just have shot him instead of grabbing his mag and trying to scare him and all that. When it's life or death I wouldn't risk it.

sturmruger
April 4, 2005, 12:53 PM
Thanks a lot guys I was laughing so hard I spit pepsi all over my desk!!

I think it is great that so many gangstas are bad shots. That means if any of us ever get into a shootout witt one of them we will be the favorite to come out alive. The story about the cop in TN is really sad. It might be a .25 but it still has a good chance of making you dead if it hits you in the right spot.


Brad you story was by far the best!!

mfree
April 4, 2005, 01:52 PM
Yeah, don't forget that an ice pick is what, .125 caliber, and only 6" of penetration or so?

even a teeny hole in your aorta, vena cava, pericardium, heart muscle, etc. etc. will make for a bad day...

cls12vg30
April 4, 2005, 05:26 PM
That's why I'm actually grateful every time I see a pistol from Jennings/Bryco/Lorcin/Raven, and more recently Cobra, the newest iteration of the unkillable Davis Industries monster. I see them in shops, pawnshops, shows, etc. I'm glad they're there, I'm glad they're so cheap, I'm glad the people who buy them buy them, they're likely to either be bangers themselves or to live in a situation where the gun will promptly be stolen by one. The bangers are going to be armed. If I have to face one, PLEASE GOD, let him be armed with a Bryco .25, and let him be holding it sideways.

Not to totally disparage .25, I have a Beretta 21A in .25 myself, I wanted a pocket BUG on the cheap and I got it for a song. I don't carry it anymore, I have a P32 for that duty now, but I still have and occasionally shoot the Beretta because it's fun & reliable, I like the innovative tip-up design, and it's the most accurate gun I've ever shot for short-range sightless point-shooting.

My favorite thing to see a gangsta do in the movies is hold a pistol not just sideways, but almost upside down, held high over his head, pointing down at his target. I love that. I hope if I am ever in a bad situation the perp takes his cue from such movies. That way I'm guaranteed my shots won't get held up by his gun arm on their way to COM.

cgv69
April 4, 2005, 06:37 PM
I usually get a little PO'ed leaving local gun shops because of the rude idiots behind the counters and their rip off prices.

I always thought it would be nice if I had the money to open my own gun shop and run it "right" (well my version of right anyway ;) ). That was until one day I was in one of the smaller local shops and then these two young wigger-gangsta wannabes walked in talking their BS and I realized right there why some of these gun shop owners might be jerks and why I could never run one :cuss:

Crosshair
April 4, 2005, 06:56 PM
I certianly hope the bad guy's don't have Hi-Points. From talking to people buying ammo at work (Wal-Mart) Hi-Point seems to have fixed their Quality Control problems that earned them a bad name years ago.

I had a customer take out their pistol at the counter and ask for the correct ammo, co-worker nearly dived for cover, everyone around just stared at him. I look at it and say with a straight face, "K, it's a 9mm (Hi-Point), here are the kinds of ammo we have, what kind would you like?" He ended up buying 200 rounds of (plinking) ammo and a box of clay pigions to go plinking with. He had it in a plastic case with a trigger lock on it so I don't know why everyone was so peaked. Oh well, I guess there is a reason why I am known as the "gun guy" at work. The guy was thinking about buying the pistol from a friend. It was a recent production and in nice shape. The guy bought the pistol and came in later to buy more ammo. I have talked to customers with the 45 Auto and the 9mm Carbine. All of them have had great experience with the Hi-Points.

/Funny thing is that I (am soposed to) work in Paint/Hardware across from Sporting Goods. :D

nomadboi
April 4, 2005, 07:04 PM
Redneck Revolver- real or not, one of these days I'm going to have to use that trick in a movie.

Thanks,
Kevin

ScorpioVI
April 4, 2005, 08:19 PM
one time someone attempted to mug me and my buddy. before i continue let me tell you this was in detroit, somewhere i prefer not to go unarmed. anyways my friend is a bit older and has his CCW. unfortunatly the BG came from around a corner produced his pistol (sidways of course) about 6 inches from my freinds face. my friend has been through alot of dangerous activities and is former united states marine, so he reacts in a calm manner and asks "what model pistol is that?" to my utter shock at the bangers stupidity he turns the gun sideways to look at the model name and caliber. at that time my freind presses the magazine release button and grabs the magazine. he then proceeds to unholster his HK mk23 and says in a almost demonic voice "im sure you know how many bodies they find around here, one more wouldnt make much of a differance would it?" he then tell the bastard to bugger off in less polite terms. needless to say afterwards we got out of there ASAP. we had a good laugh later that night. i still can't beleive he actually looked at the model name.



Yea right.

http://www.tacticalpursuits.com/images/bsmeter.gif

Brian41
April 4, 2005, 11:13 PM
When i was getting finger printed for my CCW at the Dekalb County PD in Atlanta, i was waiting in line behind a gentleman who was louldly expressing his frustration (through his gold teeth) with having to wait in line to get fingerprinted for his permit...atleast i think thats waht he was comlaining about... it was hard to understand....
needless to say, i was glad that i would be getting my CCW the same time as him, and not after. .... since then i've been a firm supporter of the great state of GA requiring qualifying tests and handgun training courses for ther CCW permits... i know i could pass them, and i know they would stop ceartain people from getting their CCW

The Rabbi
April 4, 2005, 11:48 PM
The guy might have been perfectly OK. Maybe a little socially awkward.
But you bring up a good point. A lot of people on this board and elsewhere always want "Vermont-style" carry, i.e. no special licensing. I can never quite get myself to go for that one. I have seen a lot of people in gun stores and out who really have no business with guns. I'm pretty happy with how things are in TN as it stands. If you put a certain amount of difficulty in people's way it will tend to weed out those you wouldnt want carrying anyway.

ajkurp
April 5, 2005, 01:49 AM
A three local homeeez came in, one asking for a "clip for my 38 special". I intellegently replied, "hunh?", and asked him to repeat that. Yup. A clip for my 38 special.

Okay...., um" it is an autoloader?".
"yeah, a 38 special like that one on the wall." (a Springfield P9)
"In 38 special?"
"yeah, just get me a clip foe a regular 38 special." He looked at me like I was stupid.
"Do you know the make?"
"Naw"
"Model?"
"Just a Special."
His buddies had abandoned their civil eyed act and were now staring at me like my rot does another dog when it pees on his tire.
I've gotten over my surprise of being asked about a "clip for my 38 special" and was starting to have fun at his expense. His pals saw it, but he didn't.

I finally said the 'clip' has to be matched to the gun, make, model and serial number and wouldn't he please bring it in? He won't, but I'm on good terms with the Sheriff's office to run the serial number if he does.

He then asked about an AK-47 and what it took to buy one. Lost interest when I said something about a "full FBI background check."

KONY
April 5, 2005, 02:26 AM
i know i could pass them, and i know they would stop ceartain people from getting their CCW

If you put a certain amount of difficulty in people's way it will tend to weed out those you wouldnt want carrying anyway.

:rolleyes: Sorry but I must respectfully disagree with you gents. To me, you guys are preaching more "gun control" ... this would be a step backwards and we certainly don't need more of this ANYWHERE. If a person passes a criminal/mental health background check, let them buy a gun and let Darwin handle the rest. One of our forum members (bogie) just created a thread about selling t-shirts with a very important message (though backwards). In case you didn't see it, here it is ...

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=23408

peacefuljeffrey
April 5, 2005, 03:31 AM
KONY stated part of what I feel about the earlier posts. It is not in keeping with our typical stated position about the unconstitutionality of government-stewardship of our right to keep and bear arms, to advocate that it continue to be given out as the government sees fit.

Now, let's assume that we are counting on testing to keep "homey" from obtaining a CCW permit.

Is failure to pass the test and obtain the permit really going to stop him from carrying a gun?! How many shootings can you cite in which the murderer fired a gun he was legally licensed to carry a gun you would prefer he had not been licensed to carry?

I don't think that bureaucratic hurdles have kept one "banger" from carrying a gun and saved a single life. We are talking about people who are willing to commit murder. Denial of a pistol permit will keep them from going around with a Jennings tucked into the waistband?! :rolleyes: Come on, people, let's think a little deeper about this than the average HCI spokesman would, okay? :scrutiny:

-Jeffrey

Blackburn
April 5, 2005, 03:51 AM
you dont have to pick his story apart. what does he have to gain by lying to us.

People like telling tall stories online. I of course would never lie to you as I am a 6'5 Blonde haired aryan god who daily drives a 05 H1 on 45" boggers and a mounted M2, with a Ferrari as my weekend ride.

KONY
April 5, 2005, 09:53 AM
KONY stated part of what I feel about the earlier posts. It is not in keeping with our typical stated position about the unconstitutionality of government-stewardship of our right to keep and bear arms, to advocate that it continue to be given out as the government sees fit.

Exactly the point I wanted to express but stated far more eloquently. :cool:

Otisimo
April 5, 2005, 10:03 AM
One time at band camp....

Control Group
April 5, 2005, 10:27 AM
People like telling tall stories online. I of course would never lie to you as I am a 6'5 Blonde haired aryan god who daily drives a 05 H1 on 45" boggers and a mounted M2, with a Ferrari as my weekend ride.
*shrug*

Sounds legit to me. Now, if you had said you were a woman...

(CYA disclaimer: no offense is intended to the female members of THR, nor do I intend to imply that women are incapable of using a gun, using the internet, being an engineer, or voting. No animals were harmed in the making of this post. Close cover before striking. This is not legal advice. Not to be used as a personal floatation device. Contains small letters which may be a choking hazard for children under three. Printed on 100% post-consumer electrons. Read at your own risk. Management is not responsible for lost or stolen goods. Keep right. This end up. I am from the government, and I am here to help. Caveat emptor. Cash value 1/100 of a cent. Void where prohibited. Message not available in all states. Not FDIC insured, and your investment may be at risk. Do not read if you are nursing, pregnant, or could become pregnant. Side effects include possible laughter, dizziness, and sausage fingers. Do not stare into the sun.)

gm
April 5, 2005, 10:34 AM
just once...was shooting at an indoor range not really noticing anything going on in the next lane when all of a sudden I heard these screams and yelling. stopped, dropped the mag,locked the slide back and set my gun on the shelf. Looked over... a hot shell casing from an auto they were shooting musta flipped up and went right down the girlfriends top. between the 2 of them yelling and the young lady frantically grabbing to get it out, its a wonder anybody could shoot at all that afternoon.

The Rabbi
April 5, 2005, 11:15 AM
f a person passes a criminal/mental health background check, let them buy a gun and let Darwin handle the rest.

I see this a lot. People somehow assume that because they're trained and proficient in firearms they will prevail in any encounter with someone less well trained. The recent shooting in Tyler should put paid to that notion.

Is failure to pass the test and obtain the permit really going to stop him from carrying a gun?! How many shootings can you cite in which the murderer fired a gun he was legally licensed to carry a gun you would prefer he had not been licensed to carry?

How many muggings were avoided because the potential perp couldnt find a gun? How many domestic violence scenarios did not end in homicide because one of the parties wasnt together enough to have a gun around? I dont know and neither does anyone else. You cannot prove a negative. But the proposition that gun laws (or any other type) have no effect on behavior because someone will always violate them is not tenable.

Phantom Warrior
April 5, 2005, 11:46 AM
The Rabbi,

How does simply licensing handgun carry affect the availability of weapons for a criminal? Seriously, I can't see the connection there. If we started talking about background checks to buy and restricting handgun sales, then I could see it. But if he already has the gun, how does denying him a permit to carry prevent him from getting one? :confused:

Control Group
April 5, 2005, 11:53 AM
You know, I was composing a long, detailed response to your post, Rabbi, then I remembered our last conversation. I'm fairly certain this one would end up in a fundamental disagreement, as well, so I'm not going to bother. ;)

HOWEVER

I will, however, ask about the following:
You cannot prove a negative
Really? If one can't prove a negative, how does one prove that one can't prove a negative?

KONY
April 5, 2005, 11:53 AM
I see this a lot. People somehow assume that because they're trained and proficient in firearms they will prevail in any encounter with someone less well trained. The recent shooting in Tyler should put paid to that notion.

Rabbi, I am still having trouble making the connection between your statement (quoted above) and the statement I made about "gun control". Please explain further because, right now, it sounds like you're saying that the recent shooting in Tyler could have been prevented by tougher training standards?? :confused: ... if so, still sounds like more "gun control" talk to me.

But the proposition that gun laws (or any other type) have no effect on behavior because someone will always violate them is not tenable.

Ummm ... see "gun control" statement above. Like anything else related to firearms, proper firearms training is a personal responsibility. We don't need the gov't to tell us what type and how much training we need to have BEFORE we are allowed to exercise our RIGHT (see 2nd Amendment as it say says nothing about "priviledge") to bear arms. Also, please note that my use of captialization is to denote EMPHASIS, not HOSTILITY. :D

The Rabbi
April 5, 2005, 12:04 PM
Rabbi, I am still having trouble making the connection between your statement (quoted above) and the statement I made about "gun control". Please explain further because, right now, it sounds like you're saying that the recent shooting in Tyler could have been prevented by tougher training standards??

I was responding to the statement that Darwin would take care of things. The lesson I got from Tyler is that Darwin doesnt work all the time. There, a well trained shooter lost his life to a creep. So the supposition I see here that because we are well trained and well armed we will prevail in any fight is wrong.

How does simply licensing handgun carry affect the availability of weapons for a criminal?
It doesnt. But there are plenty of people who are not criminals but nontheless have no idea what they are doing (this thread has provided some amusing stories about many of them). Requiring licensing standards prevents at least some of them from carrying legally.
As far as 2A, since the requirements are promulgated by the states, not the federals government the 2A is irrelevant.

Justin
April 5, 2005, 12:28 PM
You cannot prove a negative. But the proposition that gun laws (or any other type) have no effect on behavior because someone will always violate them is not tenable. Neither is the concept of passing laws that cannot be proven to have a positive statistical effect. If a law cannot be proven to have had an effect on the situation it is applied to, then there is no point in that law existing.

The Rabbi
April 5, 2005, 12:33 PM
Neither is the concept of passing laws that cannot be proven to have a positive statistical effect. If a law cannot be proven to have had an effect on the situation it is applied to, then there is no point in that law existing

Could you name a law that was proven to have a positive statistical effect?

KONY
April 5, 2005, 12:34 PM
So the supposition I see here that because we are well trained and well armed we will prevail in any fight is wrong.

But there are plenty of people who are not criminals but nontheless have no idea what they are doing (this thread has provided some amusing stories about many of them). Requiring licensing standards prevents at least some of them from carrying legally.

Essentially, you are saying that the only benefit of increased firearms training is to prevent "undesireables" (whomever you believe those are) from obtaining a firearm. I wholeheartedly disagree but I doubt I will convince you otherwise. Thus, I'll settle for "agreeing to disagree". :D

spacemanspiff
April 5, 2005, 01:23 PM
was shooting at an indoor range not really noticing anything going on in the next lane when all of a sudden I heard these screams and yelling. stopped, dropped the mag,locked the slide back and set my gun on the shelf. Looked over... a hot shell casing from an auto they were shooting musta flipped up and went right down the girlfriends top
just a suggestion, should you hear screams and yelling while on a hot range, keep in the back of your mind that it just might be a bad situation about to get worse. (maybe you had your carry weapon already loaded up and concealed?)

The Rabbi
April 5, 2005, 01:31 PM
Essentially, you are saying that the only benefit of increased firearms training is to prevent "undesireables" (whomever you believe those are) from obtaining a firearm.

I'm not saying anything of the sort. I am saying that mandating standards for safety and proficiency in firearms in order to carry will prevent many people who are somehow unable to meet those standards from carrying. It is exactly analogous to standards for driver's licenses, truck drivers' licenses, pilot's licenses etc.

jwmoore
April 5, 2005, 01:47 PM
I am saying that mandating standards for safety and proficiency in firearms in order to carry will prevent many people who are somehow unable to meet those standards from carrying. It is exactly analogous to standards for driver's licenses, truck drivers' licenses, pilot's licenses etc.The right to keep and drive car/truck/airplanes shall not be infringed.

Edit to add: My point being that the analogy does not work, due to lack of Constutional protection on operating motor vehicles.

RyanM
April 5, 2005, 01:58 PM
The right to keep and drive car/truck/airplanes shall not be infringed.

Edit to add: My point being that the analogy does not work, due to lack of Constutional protection on operating motor vehicles

Amendment 9

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

Gordon Fink
April 5, 2005, 02:04 PM
[T]here are plenty of people who are not criminals but nontheless have no idea what they are doing.… Requiring licensing standards prevents at least some of them from carrying legally.

At best, gun-control “laws” might help prevent accidents. Keeping with our stereotypes, the good-hearted but careless ’neck who is too impatient to learn how to properly handle a firearm will probably be dissuaded from acquiring one by complicated regulations and requirements, but a truly bad guy like your criminal ’banger will simply acquire and use his guns illegally.

However, accidental shootings have become vanishingly rare. I suspect this has more to do with the emphasis placed on safety and training by the NRA and similar organizations than with any gun-control legislation. Either that or natural selection has already claimed the genes of most of the careless ’necks and ’bangers. :D

~G. Fink

mountaindrew
April 5, 2005, 02:16 PM
Well you guy are forgeting that, even though a crimnal can get thier hands on a gun illegally, he can never use it or show it to anyone without commiting a crime. If I am in an accident, or traffic stop, or whatever and am carrting legally, nothing bad happens to me. If your "banger" with an illegal wepon get pulled over for a broken tailight and the cop discovers his wepon, he is going to jail. And this happens alot. If there was nor regulation, alot of the very bad people who are in jail now for gun crimes would be out on the street.

I dont mind taking a driving test to get my drivers license and I dont mind taking a training course to get my ccw. It wont deter me because I am Legal.

Control Group
April 5, 2005, 02:21 PM
Amendment 9

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.
Yes, but that doesn't mean that everything not mentioned in the Constitution is a right. It just means that one can't use the exclusion of something from the Constitution as justification for restraint. The Constitution doesn't specifically prohibit me from keeping your wallet if I find it in the street, but most people would agree I don't have a "right" to the wallet. Ditto stealing your car, breaking into your home, and so forth.

Control Group
April 5, 2005, 02:33 PM
It wont deter me because I am Legal.
The problem is that this thought process can be used to justify anything. You're legal, so I'm sure you won't mind if we search your home, right? You don't engage in illegal activity, so I'm sure you won't mind if we monitor your behavior all the time, right? You're not plotting any criminal activity, so I'm sure you won't mind if we read your mail, tap your phone, and log your email, right? You're legal, so you won't mind if we check your papers at every state border, right?

"And when they came for me, there was no one left to speak out for me."

Why should the "banger" go to jail just for having a weapon? Because he might commit a crime with it? We can't start incarcerating people because they might eventually do something bad. Or rather, we can, and we have, but we shouldn't. I believe in punishing crimes, and I don't see how possessing an inanimate item is, in itself, a crime.

Except, of course, that "they" don't trust us with firearms, so we have to prove we're worthy. If that's legitimate, then we should make people prove they're competent to vote or express their political opinions in public.

The Rabbi
April 5, 2005, 02:45 PM
Edit to add: My point being that the analogy does not work, due to lack of Constutional protection on operating motor vehicles.

The analogy does work because the 2nd does not apply to states. And even states where the state constituion guarantees firearm ownership, nothing in the language says the state has to leave it totally unregulated.

At best, gun-control “laws” might help prevent accidents. Keeping with our stereotypes, the good-hearted but careless ’neck who is too impatient to learn how to properly handle a firearm will probably be dissuaded from acquiring one by complicated regulations and requirements, but a truly bad guy like your criminal ’banger will simply acquire and use his guns illegally

You will never deter a truly determined bad guy from just about anything. But most people are not truly determined, including those who commit crimes. We have seen ample ample anecdotal evidence on this thread of people who have no business being around guns, either through irresponsibility or through gross ignorance. You can cure the gross ignorance part by mandating some kind of safety training. You can mitigate the irresponsible part by setting up some kind of minimal threshold people have to pass.

KONY
April 5, 2005, 02:47 PM
Well you guy are forgeting that, even though a crimnal can get thier hands on a gun illegally, he can never use it or show it to anyone without commiting a crime. If I am in an accident, or traffic stop, or whatever and am carrting legally, nothing bad happens to me. If your "banger" with an illegal wepon get pulled over for a broken tailight and the cop discovers his wepon, he is going to jail. And this happens alot. If there was nor regulation, alot of the very bad people who are in jail now for gun crimes would be out on the street.

Ummm ... if a "banger" did something illegal, it would show-up on his criminal record. Wouldn't the charges found on this record be what qualifies him/her as a "banger"? Or are we prosecuting people BEFORE they commit a crime now? Where's Tom Cruise when you need him?!! :D

KONY
April 5, 2005, 02:52 PM
You can mitigate the irresponsible part by setting up some kind of minimal threshold people have to pass.

Who gets to determine the "minimal threshold to pass"? What if we set the "threshold" so high that poor people couldn't afford to get "enough" training? Just some questions I have.

Werewolf
April 5, 2005, 03:04 PM
I was responding to the statement that Darwin would take care of things. The lesson I got from Tyler is that Darwin doesnt work all the time. There, a well trained shooter lost his life to a creep. So the supposition I see here that because we are well trained and well armed we will prevail in any fight is wrong.
DARWIN ALWAYS WINS!

And he won at Tyler, TX too. The CCW holder didn't have a vest the shooter did (foresight, tactical planning ability, etc). The shooter's ability to plan ahead and carry big guns trumped any training the CCW guy had.

Like I said:

DARWIN ALWAYS WINS!

KONY
April 5, 2005, 03:14 PM
DARWIN ALWAYS WINS!

Unfortunately, I must agree. Makes me want to take a trip to the Galapogos to find out what other stuff those birds told him! :neener: :D

ScorpioVI
April 5, 2005, 03:52 PM
There, a well trained shooter lost his life to a creep.



I gotta disagree there. Without disparaging his heroics, the man essentially brought a knife to a gunfight, and died. A "well-trained" shooter would have seen the event going down from his apartment window (as this man did), grabbed a rifle, oh say a Remington 700PSS in .308 (this is Texas, no?), and popped the perp from the comfort of his living room. He'd be a living hero, and not a dead one.

UberPhLuBB
April 5, 2005, 05:01 PM
Is failure to pass the test and obtain the permit really going to stop him from carrying a gun?! How many shootings can you cite in which the murderer fired a gun he was legally licensed to carry a gun you would prefer he had not been licensed to carry?

I don't think that bureaucratic hurdles have kept one "banger" from carrying a gun and saved a single life. We are talking about people who are willing to commit murder. Denial of a pistol permit will keep them from going around with a Jennings tucked into the waistband?! Come on, people, let's think a little deeper about this than the average HCI spokesman would, okay?

The Rabbi,

How does simply licensing handgun carry affect the availability of weapons for a criminal? Seriously, I can't see the connection there. If we started talking about background checks to buy and restricting handgun sales, then I could see it. But if he already has the gun, how does denying him a permit to carry prevent him from getting one?

I don't think it's an issue of keeping guns out of the hands of criminals, it's an issue of liability. If we show that these people are clearly distinct from law-abiding carriers, there isn't going to be any blanket liability for us. Draw a line and stay on one side of it and they can't lump all gun owners in with criminals.

At least that's how I see it.

Helping keep a few idiots from carrying when they shouldn't would be a great side effect, but the paper-based distinction it would provide (not unlike comparing a college grad to a non-grad when sizing them up for a job) is the main factor in my opinion.

I dont mind taking a driving test to get my drivers license and I dont mind taking a training course to get my ccw. It wont deter me because I am Legal.

I agree. I only wish I had that chance here in LA County. :(

Now then, can we get back to the painfully amusing stories? :D

SpookyPistolero
April 5, 2005, 05:15 PM
So how was your view from the street or apartment or wherever you were in Tyler, ScorpioVI? I assume you were there to see how the incident was played out in order to say that the man who grabbed his pistol to stop the killing made a mistake.

Going into a situation knowing there are bad odds for you doesn't make you untrained or a candidate for the darwin award. It means you did what you felt needed to be done. How do you know he would have had time to go unlock a safe, get out a rifle and take the shot? How do you know he didn't want to save as many lives as possible and maybe buy some people precious time by at the very least being a forceful distraction to the assailant?? How do you know his level of training (not just whats on paper, if youve even looked that up) or what any man would do in that situation, unless you were in it too?

Don't condescend to tell a man who gave his life for prefect strangers what he should have done. Deal in reality.

lotus
April 5, 2005, 05:18 PM
Why does this thread make me want to say ...

http://www.celebritywonder.com/mp/2004_Collateral/2004_collateral_015.jpg

"Yo, homey! That my briefcase?"

KONY
April 5, 2005, 05:26 PM
Well, I see this thread has taken a turn for the worse and can officially be labeled as "hi-jacked". I apologize for my role in keeping it going. Seems to happen whenever people feel strongly about a topic. Let's just keep it civil (or close to it, at least). Your opinions have been good "food for thought" for me.

The Rabbi
April 5, 2005, 05:30 PM
I'll second that and apologize for any hijacking I may have done.

Did I mention the brutha who came into the store and wanted a carbine with a short barrel? Real short. So he could hang it out a car window.

KONY
April 5, 2005, 05:35 PM
I'll second that and apologize for any hijacking I may have done.

Copy cat! :neener:

Too Many Choices!?
April 5, 2005, 05:38 PM
I guess I am a banger :rolleyes: .......
Boom Car(1 JL audio 12subwoofer300wamp monod) - check
Afro with pic hanging out- check
Glock 23- check
WASR ak- check
Baggy jeans-check(u try concealed carrying a Glock 23 or Taurus 45 mill. with a 28" waiste line :cuss: )
I guess all I am missing is shooting my Glock side-ways with a home-boy grip
:neener: ! I doubt some of you guys have seen all this sideways shooting /thrusting "jab" motion that you claim. I simply can't belive that Hollywood has that much influence on people :uhoh: ! T.V. and movies are the only place I have seen this type of activity :confused: ! Not saying it isn't done just a healthy sceptic :p ! No offense intended.......but a little taken lol......

KONY
April 5, 2005, 05:42 PM
Boom Car(1 JL audio 12subwoofer300wamp monod)

Lightweight! Come back when you have at least 3 12"'s or 2 15''s with a 1000 watt Class D amp! Guaranteed to make your headlights dim and kill your alt in a month! :neener:

richyoung
April 5, 2005, 06:37 PM
"Yes, but that doesn't mean that everything not mentioned in the Constitution is a right."

What it means is that EVERYTHING not mentioned in the Constitution as being a deligated power, or following into an area the Federal government has authority, such as inter-state commerce or international treaties, or raising an army, is OFF LIMITS to the Federal Government. All of those Federal parks, wildlife refuges, wilderness areas? ILLEAGAL - the Federal Governement is prohibited from retaining land, except for the National Capital, and military bases, and those are supposed to be less than 10 square miles. That's why Oklahoma had the land runs - the Feds had to get rid of the land. FAA? FCC? DOT? I don't see anything in the Constitution about airplanes, telephones, rail roads, or radio waves. The IRS? Let me ask you something -= if you aren't involved in interstate commerce or the export/import business (I venture to say that would fit most of us), and the governement is PROHIBITED from regulating you, how can they turn around and tax you? Taxation is a form of regulation! How can you file a 1040 and NOT give up your 5th ammendmant right against self-incrimination? Isn't the IRS part of the Federal Government? Unfortunately, the generation I am a part of has no guts and no spine - we don't desever the freedom our better ancestors died to give us, and we will soon lose it.



"It just means that one can't use the exclusion of something from the Constitution as justification for restraint. The Constitution doesn't specifically prohibit me from keeping your wallet if I find it in the street, but most people would agree I don't have a "right" to the wallet."

Not a federal matter - it would fall under what ever local laws govern the disbursement of lost property.

"Ditto stealing your car, breaking into your home, and so forth."

Unless I'm on an Indian reservation or military base, not federal jurisdiction. (A concept that has sadly been lost, thanks in part to the NRA's idiotic "Project Exile".)

The Rabbi
April 5, 2005, 06:43 PM
FAA? FCC? DOT? I don't see anything in the Constitution about airplanes, telephones, rail roads, or radio waves. The IRS? Let me ask you something -= if you aren't involved in interstate commerce or the export/import business (I venture to say that would fit most of us), and the governement is PROHIBITED from regulating you, how can they turn around and tax you? Taxation is a form of regulation! How can you file a 1040 and NOT give up your 5th ammendmant right against self-incrimination? Isn't the IRS part of the Federal Government? Unfortunately, the generation I am a part of has no guts and no spine - we don't desever the freedom our better ancestors died to give us, and we will soon lose it.


Check this link here: http://zapatopi.net/afdb.html (The Fed Has No Right!)

richyoung
April 5, 2005, 07:18 PM
link plead the 5th on me...

Steelcore
April 5, 2005, 08:25 PM
Its these type of stories that make me REAL glad that I can shoot at a relatives farm in WV.Its only a 600 mile rd trip.Worth it tho.

Too Many Choices!?
April 5, 2005, 11:29 PM
Yeah I could so see me putting 3-12" w3 JL audio subs with a 1000w rockford fostgate amp in my little hatchback :uhoh: ! I would have to drive around with my range hearing protection on :neener:..... Besides, I like to feel and hear the bass, not be beaten into submission by it :) ! Just enough bass to compete with the road noise/wind while making my slow jams sound smoothe as silk and the rap songs beat like I've got someone tied up trying to escape my trunk :evil:!!

KONY
April 5, 2005, 11:44 PM
Yeah I could so see me putting 3-12" w3 JL audio subs with a 1000w rockford fostgate amp in my little hatchback ! I would have to drive around with my range hearing protection on

Wimp! :neener:

Besides, I like to feel and hear the bass, not be beaten into submission by it ... Just enough bass to compete with the road noise/wind while making my slow jams sound smoothe as silk and the rap songs beat like I've got someone tied up trying to escape my trunk

Agreed! I currently have a budget set-up myself ... 2 Pioneer 12's on a U.S. Acoustics 300-watt amp and a JVC MP3 head-unit. Everything else is stock (partly b/c I spent my money on guns)! :D

peacefuljeffrey
April 6, 2005, 03:35 AM
As far as 2A, since the requirements are promulgated by the states, not the federals government the 2A is irrelevant.

I absolutely disagree. It being a state law does not exonerate it from having to be in line with the Constitution.

I am under the impression that the states may not infringe on rights guaranteed in the Constitution any more than the fedgov may.

If that were the case, then STATE prisons could impose cruel and unusual punishments. STATEgov could ban free speech or press. STATEgov could search without warrant or probable cause...

Do you see the flaw in your claim now? If the law is set on high (the Constitution) NO authority from fedgov on down may break it.


-Jeffrey

peacefuljeffrey
April 6, 2005, 03:48 AM
Well you guy are forgeting that, even though a crimnal can get thier hands on a gun illegally, he can never use it or show it to anyone without commiting a crime. If I am in an accident, or traffic stop, or whatever and am carrting legally, nothing bad happens to me. If your "banger" with an illegal wepon get pulled over for a broken tailight and the cop discovers his wepon, he is going to jail. And this happens alot. If there was nor regulation, alot of the very bad people who are in jail now for gun crimes would be out on the street.

I dont mind taking a driving test to get my drivers license and I dont mind taking a training course to get my ccw. It wont deter me because I am Legal.

If having to pass a test to get my rights given to me by the government could somehow result in the prevention of anyone who did not pass the test from also exercising that right without going to the bother of getting government approval, I might see your point.

But nothing about YOU passing the test does anything at all to stop a criminal-type from carrying a gun for the purpose of robbing and killing people. So you made the sacrifice of the absoluteness of your right for nothing. Why give it up if there's no benefit? The 'bangers are still going to carry their guns illegally if they know that legal carry is an option not open to them. They expose themselves to arrest for the gun if they undergo a taillight stop? So what? They'll get their slap on the wrist, be warned again not to carry a gun illegally, and the next time they're back out of the joint, guess what they'll be doing again. :rolleyes:

Before you volunteer up your rights for the illusion of safety, recognize that it IS an illusion, and not worthy of your sacrifice.

edit:
Now, on a few more points...

If your 'banger has the gang associations but has no criminal record, I do NOT support the notion that he should be pre-empted from having or carrying a gun.

If he has been convicted of a felony, and he's involved in the traffic stop where the gun is discovered, he can be charged as a felon in possession, but nothing about that requires that there be a TEST OF KNOWLEDGE OR PROFICIENCY before the issuance of a CCW permit in order to put him back in jail for carrying a gun.

See what I mean? They can get him for felon in possession simply for possessing the gun. Why? Two reasons: he's not supposed to have a gun, as a felon. And he is carrying without a permit. He could have been denied the permit simply for the felony record -- we don't need proficiency requirements to be able to do that.

You also offered that you don't mind having to pass a driver's test to drive -- presumably because you figure that the existence of the testing requirement keeps those who are not trained and therefore not licensed from driving the same roads as you and I drive.

PLEASE tell me you do not believe that people stay off the roads because they don't have a driver's license. I could fill a scrapbook full of stories about such people killing others on the road in under a week. :rolleyes:

So once again, you have not demonstrated how requirements that affect only those who prostrate themselves before those requirements and allow themselves to be bound by them keep anyone safe from those who flout the requirements.

The simple fact is they do not.

-Jeffrey

garyk/nm
April 6, 2005, 09:09 AM
There is one benefit to the training and proficiency requirements: it keeps the stats on CCW related shootings to an almost non-existant level. Very useful in our fight against the grabbers.
Do CCW laws keep the bad guys from carrying any time they want? Obviously no. But CCW does provide a demarcation between the good guys (us) and the BGs. I am happy that I have a card that says "I am a good guy".

LeonCarr
April 6, 2005, 09:43 AM
Getting back to "Gangsta" shooters, a few years back we had a guy come to our monthly IPSC match, and he shot the entire first stage of the match "gangsta style" with the pistol tilted on its side. One of our Master class shooters, who is a retired Texas Highway Patrol Sergeant and also a CHL Instructor, took him to the safe area and gave him about five minutes of instruction on how to shoot a pistol. He shot the other two stages clean with no misses, and ended up placing 3rd out of 25 people.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

sturmruger
April 6, 2005, 11:53 AM
There was a movie a few years ago called Josie and the Pussycats it was a teeny bopper movie that my wife dragged me to one weekend. It was dreadfully boring, but still mildly funny. My favorite part of the movie was how the MTV equivalent, and all the other Hollywood influences kept people spending their money by changing what was cool.

It is sad to think that Hollywood has that much influence, but it really does. Most people have no realistic idea how a gun fight will play out. They revert back to their Hollywood expectation because that is all they have. God help us all of any if the gangs ever start taking real training like we do.

Zundfolge
April 7, 2005, 01:10 AM
There is one benefit to the training and proficiency requirements: it keeps the stats on CCW related shootings to an almost non-existant level.

So are the stats on CCW related shootings in Vermont worse then Texas or Florida etc.?

chadintex
April 7, 2005, 02:01 AM
MY BIL is a gangster and through him I have met many more. Nothing you can say or do will stop them from owning/carrying guns. I have met people in their 20's who have shot or been shot many times and their resolve will not decrease through any legislation. They will get guns and they will use them. Period. They do not carry cheapo .25's, most of them carry at least 9mm and although thier range time is not on par with ours, they do shoot often. Anybody who lives in da hood can attest to constant late night gunfire in the backyards. These people do not care for laws and will not respect them. If you think laws will stop them, you are a fool. Most of them are already have warrants for their arrest, live criminal lives, and are a threat to those with whom they have contact. If they want what you have, they will do anything to get it.

The only defense is awareness and logic. Do not underestimate your enemy.

As far as CCW requirements, anyone who has a pulse should be allowed to carry. I myself have been denied because of honest youthful mistakes.

Brian Dale
April 7, 2005, 01:41 PM
L. Neil Smith wrote elsewhere:"First, the freedom to own and carry the weapon of your choice is a natural, fundamental, and inalienable human, individual, civil, and Constitutional right -- subject neither to the democratic process nor to arguments grounded in social utility." He was right.

People and their governments either violate fundamental human rights or they don't.

Let's not sugar-coat the violations with cost-benefit analysis.

rritter
April 7, 2005, 05:44 PM
So are the stats on CCW related shootings in Vermont worse then Texas or Florida etc.?

They're better - nobody with a Vermont CCW permit has ever been involved in a crime of any sort! :evil:

peacefuljeffrey
April 9, 2005, 03:28 AM
MY BIL is a gangster and through him I have met many more. Nothing you can say or do will stop them from owning/carrying guns. I have met people in their 20's who have shot or been shot many times and their resolve will not decrease through any legislation. They will get guns and they will use them. Period. They do not carry cheapo .25's, most of them carry at least 9mm and although thier range time is not on par with ours, they do shoot often. Anybody who lives in da hood can attest to constant late night gunfire in the backyards. These people do not care for laws and will not respect them. If you think laws will stop them, you are a fool. Most of them are already have warrants for their arrest, live criminal lives, and are a threat to those with whom they have contact. If they want what you have, they will do anything to get it.

The only defense is awareness and logic. Do not underestimate your enemy.

As far as CCW requirements, anyone who has a pulse should be allowed to carry. I myself have been denied because of honest youthful mistakes.


Ominous words, to be taken very seriously. Thank you for a raw insight into what we should really expect of these people (animals?).

You made me curious with your final statement, though. What were these "mistakes" you made? I ask because I wonder, they rose to the level of "crimes," yes? Were they really mistakes, or did you actually -- at the time, with whatever maturity, judgment and intelligence you happened to possess then -- intend to do what you did?

See, I feel that if we gloss over actual crimes committed in youth as "mistakes," we open ourselves up to having to swallow the notion that these gangbangers aren't pernicious, belligerent threats to the social fabric, but instead just "youths who have made a mistake." :rolleyes:

-Jeffrey

jacketch
April 9, 2005, 02:26 PM
I've seen bangers at the local range on numerous occasions. Some are bullet 'throwers' and some can shoot very well.

At a gunshow recently I was looking at pistols when several boyz came up and started looking at Glocks. The finally left after deciding they weren't FLAT enough. Flat as in sticking it in the waistband flat.

At a public range that I used to frequent, I was shooting by myself when a car pulled up. Two fellas in checkered headress (thing Arafat) got out and stood nearby and watched me work out my AR and my FAL. After I had just about obliterated the targets I began wondering if I should go downrange and change them or leave for the day. I decided not to go downrange with these guys around so I started to pack up. They came over and started to ask what I was shooting and after a while it did come out that they were Palestinians. They didn't have any guns so I never did figure why they were there. Several weeks later, at the same range, I was approached by two individuals in Arab dress and sporting shoulder holsters with 1911's. They wanted to do some shooting with their pistols by there wasn't a range for that. I suggested they try an indoor range in town but they said they had just come from there after spending $250 shooting!!

Blackburn
April 9, 2005, 06:43 PM
Inner city disadvantaged persons are just as worthy of being taught proper self defense and handgun / rifle combat skills as anyone. In fact, they are my client of choice. Always hungry for knowledge, most of them are smart enough to pick up proper elements after a brief orientation, and very dedicated to improving their skills. Plus, their money is as good as anyone else. All it takes is a little wardrobe adjustment and a quick briefing on how to 'blend in' and I've had bunches of them along with me to competitions and training classes all over the eastern US with no one being the wiser. ;)

chadintex
April 10, 2005, 03:37 AM
Jeffrey, 12 years ago when I was 18, I was caught with a dope pipe. It was a class c misdemeanor and was never a problem. I had my Texas CHL for years and have not been in any trouble since then. The problem is that in OK, any drug related offense automatically disqualifies you from getting your CHL.

As far as intent? The pipe was not mine, but my truck = my pipe in the eyes of the law and I was not going to rat on my buddy for a pipe that was only a $50 ticket. If I knew then what I know now, I might have done things differently.

peacefuljeffrey
April 10, 2005, 03:49 AM
Sorry to hear that.

I don't agree with holding people accountable for old stuff with new penalties, that's for sure. And the same goes for disqualifying gun owners for decades-old domestic violence issues. I don't defend those who raise a hand to a spouse, but I also think it is wrong to punish people now with new punishments that were not in place when the act was committed.

-Jeffrey

c_yeager
April 10, 2005, 04:54 AM
The finally left after deciding they weren't FLAT enough. Flat as in sticking it in the waistband flat.

I said the same thing when I handled my first glock :uhoh:

Blackburn
April 10, 2005, 05:00 AM
I sell a lot of guys on Star Firestars for their excellent 'homie style' waistband fit and heavy caliber firepower. Not exactly something they can get for 80 bucks in an alley, but most of them don't have a problem if the 'gat' in question is between 80 and 800. The ones who wear baggier clothes can conceal much larger weaponry, cut down shotguns are common.

The 'jaw dropping' award goes to the fellow who, after hearing my explanation of why a heavier rifle cartridge is overall a better idea for combat than a 5.56 although 5.56 does have it's merits (I explained that assault rifle cartridges exist to fulfill a function between submachinegun ammo and full on rifle ammo) aquired a FAL cut down to what I can only compare to one of those Bushmaster AR Pistols. Amazingly, I didn't even notice until he unslung it from his back where it hid quite well under his puffy down jacket.

That was one HECK of a little firebreather.

Holly76201
April 10, 2005, 06:02 AM
When I see those baggy, pants/jeans/shorts with all the boxer showing, I , too, want to jerk them down to the doofus's ankles. When my son was in school and wanted to wear the baggies, I set a limit of the top of his hip bones. Couldn't go any lower than that. So he got to feel "stylish" and I wasn't embarrassed to be seen with him in public.

Now that he's a grown-up and asking to go shooting with the Dearly Beloved and me, he ALWAYS follows the 4 rules and never holds his weapon in the sideways orientation.

Can you tell I'm proud? :D

Blackburn
April 10, 2005, 06:29 AM
http://tinypic.com/2njfnk

:D

The Undertoad
April 10, 2005, 06:11 PM
Blackburn.... I love Achewood! :) My ex girlfriend got an interview with Chris Olofson for her school paper a year or so ago, it was pretty cool... :D

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