CCW in Church?


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Felonious Monk
March 12, 2003, 06:21 PM
Hey guys & gals,

I know we've spoken of this before, but I got an email today that made me more than a little uncomfortable. I'm going to post it here in its entirety, and would like your comments.

Based on the situation as retold in the story, I would probably be going to jail, because I would have shot someone.

I realize it's one of those "contrived stories" put together to make the point, but we all go through scenarios mentally to be prepared. What would you do?

Tell me what you think:

~~~~~~~~~~~~
Would you run?

Imagine this happening to you.

One Sunday morning during service,
a 2,000 member congregation was
surprised to see two men enter,
both covered from head to toe in black
and carrying submachine guns.
One of the men proclaimed,"Anyone
willing to take a bullet for Christ
remain where you are."

Immediately, the choir fled, the deacons fled,
and most of the congregation fled.
Out of the 2,000 there only remained around 20.

The man who had spoken took off his hood,
looked at the preacher and said
"Okay Pastor, I got rid of all
the hypocrites. Now you may begin
your service. Have a nice day!"
And the two men turned and walked out.

Too deep not to pass on...

I picked you~
My instructions were to send this to people
that I wanted God to bless and I picked you.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Thoughts?

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Preacherman
March 12, 2003, 06:22 PM
Being the pastor, I can assure you that I'd be the first one shooting! Blithering blissninny idiots... :fire: :fire: :fire:

Felonious Monk
March 12, 2003, 06:24 PM
Said it before, but...
Wish you were in TN, Preach!

Hkmp5sd
March 12, 2003, 06:25 PM
If they pretend to be BGs with weapons and threats, they'd better be good at ducking too.

Correia
March 12, 2003, 06:25 PM
That is asinine.

Running away from a mass shooting somehow shows lack of FAITH?

Man I hate some of these stupid e-mails that go around.

And if it had been real the bad guys would have been riddled with bullets pretty quick.

Blackhawk
March 12, 2003, 07:18 PM
What Hkmp5sd and Correia said. :neener:

El Rojo
March 12, 2003, 07:23 PM
Put this one in the same file as the spy satillite photos of the Columbia blowing up. This is obviously made up with the point to show how many Christians talk the talk, but don't walk the walk. I seriously doubt its validity and it is merely a story.

sm
March 12, 2003, 07:35 PM
Agree with all the above posts.

Consequences : whether its a false holdup in a church, false alarm for fire...

Our family business was cased one day, BG's robbed another store instead--we were "too observant"--(BG's later admitted).

next afternoon:
Business owner's son next door thought it would be cute to enter our store and yell "Robbe...before he could finished, I'd shucked the mod 37 and dad had a model 66 at the ready...He wet himself, he never did that again...plus his dad then disicplined him.

aikidoka-mks
March 12, 2003, 07:36 PM
Unfortunately I am in Illinois most Sunday mornings now so I wouldnt be able to respond like I would in Indiana :-(

I do hope I would be brave enough to try and stop them anyway though.

I do get tired of emails like that going around though.

Mark

Jack T.
March 12, 2003, 07:55 PM
Several in our church ( including yours truely ) are armed every Sunday.

Heard a quote once: "There is no cause worth dying for that is not better served living for"

blades67
March 12, 2003, 08:15 PM
:rolleyes:

I recieved that e-mail a few months ago. Before you get your panties in a bunch, remember that it's a JOKE! :rolleyes:

Jim March
March 12, 2003, 08:26 PM
Stupidity is often grounds for the death penalty. It was always thus, it always will be, and you wouldn't want to swim in a gene pool where it wasn't.

Preacherman
March 12, 2003, 08:27 PM
Blades, ol' buddy, I know it's a joke, but it's in such incredibly stupid taste that I find it impossible to be amused at it. I know of three incidents like this where fake "assailants" burst in on groups of people that led to real weapons being drawn, and almost used. The reaction from those armed citizens who had prepared to defend themselves was almost homicidal rage... and I don't blame them at all! Tragically, there are some blissninny dweets out there who really think that such a demonstration would prove a point. Sorry, I can't laugh at this one.

sm
March 12, 2003, 08:43 PM
I'm with you Peacherman. Not something I can laugh at.

You and I both have 'life experiences that dictate otherwise.

Minute_Of_Torso
March 12, 2003, 08:43 PM
Let's see . . .

1. Pastor, former Marine and cop
2. Elder (me), former Navy but know how to shoot despite that handicap due to redneck, farmboy upbringing
3. Another Elder, really good shot with a pistol
4. Deacon, former Marine in cop training
5. 'Bout 35% of the remainder of the congregation is former or retired military (except for the Air Force guy, I don't consider the Air Force to be actual military :D)

Yeah, I think anyone truly threatening the flock will be introduced to men who believe in protecting that which God has given them.

Ledbetter
March 12, 2003, 09:03 PM
Not to worry, I don't think anyone would try that south of Massachusetts.

Glad to have Preacherman's comments and must repeat here the wisdom of Jim March:

Stupidity is often grounds for the death penalty. It was always thus, it always will be, and you wouldn't want to swim in a gene pool where it wasn't.

Skunkabilly
March 12, 2003, 09:03 PM
two men enter, both covered from head to toe in black
and carrying submachine guns. One of the men proclaimed,"Anyone willing to take a bullet for Christ remain where you are."

There's two right there ;)

Standing Wolf
March 12, 2003, 09:25 PM
Whew! Makes me glad I'm an atheist! Those churches sound like awfully dangerous places.

Snowshoe
March 12, 2003, 09:42 PM
It is well that we remember that we are involved in a "holy war".
I would guess there are a few that carry in our church. I personally know of two.

The first Sunday I visited the church, the Pastor asked if I had the "habit" of the friend who brought me. I just smiled and told him I didn't know what he was talking about.

nemesis
March 12, 2003, 09:48 PM
Anyone entering my Church brandishing weapons has just lost the advantage. Now I know they are armed but they have no knowledge that I am.

I subscribe to the Israeli theory that any hostages are already dead and would consider myself doomed unless I took action.

I have nothing to lose. Who dares, wins.

Jesse H
March 12, 2003, 10:06 PM
Can't wait to get that email and see how many feathers I can ruffle with my "reply to all" response. :-D

pax
March 12, 2003, 10:52 PM
Of all the types of spam I get in my email box, glurge annoys me the most. :banghead:

That said ...

I know of at least one church where the pastor quietly asked a few of the men in the church who had CCWs to make sure that they always came armed to church. He believed in taking care of his people, body and soul.

pax

I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. --- Galileo Galilei

cordex
March 12, 2003, 11:37 PM
Is one thing to be willing to die for a cause. Is another to want to die for a cause.

Yohan
March 13, 2003, 05:29 AM
//
Guns do not belong in the church. It's a sacred area- holy ground. Jesus wouldn't have carried. Sure, he told his disciples to get swords or whatever, but they didn't carry them inside the church. geez- Why do you think God made Moses take off his shoes? :rolleyes: Think about it. Did Jesus make his 12 disciples get out their "Swords" and attack when the Romans came for him? Nope- He surrendered and followed their demands. Sarah Brady must be proud.
-DF

Jim March
March 13, 2003, 06:04 AM
There's a counter to that:

Absolutely nowhere in the Bible is any God-fearing person barred from arms. Literally. Under the old Law Of Moses (Old Testament), there's NO "weapons control laws" at all. And believe me, they were common as fleas during the bronze and early iron ages; the Romans were big on weapons control laws in captured territory, as were the Assyrians, Medo/Persians and other contemporary cultures the Jews would have come in contact with. So it's not like the idea wasn't available.

There was no ban on carry in temples, churches or whatever.

Several God-fearing people throughout the OT were attacked by criminals, and defended with no legal/moral/religious problems. In several cases, people or groups wrongly USED weapons, and were punished/condemned for the misuse, but not a single word was mentioned about the underlying weapon ownership (including swords). At least one OT figure in God's good graces assassinated an evil enemy king with a handmade dagger in an unusual cross-draw concealment rig :D.

There's no support for gun control in the bible. Period.

Bulldozer
March 13, 2003, 08:47 AM
Some points:

Nehemiah and EVERY one of the Jews who was rebuilding the Holy Temple after the Babylonian invasion were "girded with sword." If temple grounds are holy, they should be so during and after construction as it was practice to consecrate the ground prior to it being commenced as well as when construction was finished.

When Moses shucked his shoes in front of the burning bush on holy ground, he was allowed to keep his walking staff.

Levites had knives and blades around the temple, albeit for sacrifical work, but one could certainly use such implements in self-defense, if necessary.

In the gospel of John, it states clearly that Peter drew his sword and struck off the ear of the Roman, Malchus before Jesus had him sheath his blade. They were in the garden of Gethsemane, not in a temple or holy ground.

When Jesus flew into a rage at the temple, he overturned the tables of money-changers and gamblers on temple grounds.

==============================================

On a different note, many of the preachers and deacons of the churches I was raised in discreetly carried a pistol, whether at Wednesday night prayer meetings or at Sunday services. It only took one or two robberies to make this practice more widespread.

How else does a shepherd protect his flock, if not with a "staff" or "sling" of modern design?

rick458
March 13, 2003, 08:49 AM
With all respect
To not defend ones self to the fullest of ones ability is a sin
to not protect Gods flock when you have that ability is a sin
to not defend ones family at all times is UNFORGIVABLE

MrAcheson
March 13, 2003, 09:46 AM
Don't forget Esther. Haman made it legal for the Jews enemies to kill and plunder them. Thanks to the efforts of Mordecai and Esther, the Jews were allowed to congregate and defend themselves equal to their enemies. The celebration of Purim commemorates this event.

Felonious Monk
March 13, 2003, 10:19 AM
Jesse H--Can't wait to get that email and see how many feathers I can ruffle with my "reply to all" response. My response was basically "Thank you for thinking of me. I know you meant it to encourage me to a closer walk with Christ, but there are some of us among the faithful who would:

1) Read the situation as a genuine attack, including the verbal threat of "taking a bullet for Christ".
2) Take immediate, decisive action to defend ourselves and our church members in this situation.
It would probably take a tragic turn should it actually happen."

...Hope the peacenik wasn't TOO shocked!
I didn't get a response. :rolleyes:

Yohan
March 13, 2003, 10:22 AM
//
Once again, I must bring up the fact that Jesus did not attack back when he was arrested by the Romans. He simply followed their orders. IIRC didn't Jesus tell his disciples to put their weapons away and obey the Romans? Carrying a weapon in a church is not only paranoid, it is hypocritical and illogical.

-DF

Felonious Monk
March 13, 2003, 10:35 AM
Yohan--
Tell it to the Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto.

I'll back off and let Preacherman do the talking here.
He's got stories re: this that'll drop your jaw.

Take care of my light work, Preach! :p ;)

pax
March 13, 2003, 10:40 AM
Yohan,

Jesus was called to do something we are not called to do -- die for the sins of humanity. The plan was for Him to come down, lead a sinless life, get murdered for it, and come back to life -- thus demonstrating His power over sin and over death. That was His plan from the beginning. So when the soldiers came for Him, of course He told His disciples to put away their swords and let Him go! The soldiers were part of His plan.

But you'll notice He didn't tell them to throw their swords away. He told them to put their swords away. Big difference.

I'll leave it for someone else to point out that they weren't in church at the time, either.

pax

It is curious that people who are filled with horrified indignation whenever a cat kills a sparrow can hear that story of the killing of God told Sunday after Sunday and not experience any shock at all. -- Dorothy Sayers

TheFrontRange
March 13, 2003, 10:42 AM
I carry there...no provisions where I live prohibiting CCW in houses of worship. I hope there are others carrying at my church, too.

Yohan
March 13, 2003, 10:52 AM
Um, I'm guessing non of you guys remember my "anti-simulation" deal. Basically- when I type "//" at the beginning, it signifies an "anti-simulation". I'm all for guns in churches, I'm just doing the anti-simulation for those who need ideas for antis, geeeez :uhoh:

MrAcheson
March 13, 2003, 10:58 AM
Morality is situational. Christ sums up all morality as "love your God with all your heart and soul and mind and love your neighbor as yourself." Solomon likewise says there is a time to kill and a time to die. There is a time and a purpose for all things under heaven. Sometimes you should attack, sometimes you should defend, and sometimes you should surrender. Pray to God that he reveals to you what is appropriate in each situation. God has told men to surrender (Christ), defend, and attack in the Bible. Do not be so short sighted to think that He is limiting us to only one of those choices now.

Being capable of defending yourself and other falls cleary under "loving your brother" for many people on this forum. Unless doing so is illegal in your area (and it is some places), it is perfectly moral to carry in church. Some would say it is moral to carry despite the law but I respectfully submit that those people should reread Peter and Paul's writing on submitting to earthly authorities.

Perhaps you should read the section in Romans that deals with people who are stronger and weaker in their faith. Exchange "eat food sacrificed to idols" with "carry firearms in church."

Jesse H
March 13, 2003, 11:00 AM
Carrying a weapon in a church is not only paranoid, it is hypocritical and illogical.

Would wearing a seatbelt when you're just around the parking lot be considered paranoid? Car accidents happen anywhere cars are present. Crimes will happen anywhere people are present, even churches. Happened at my own church.

Um, I'm guessing non of you guys remember my "anti-simulation" deal. Basically- when I type "//" at the beginning, it signifies an "anti-simulation". I'm all for guns in churches, I'm just doing the anti-simulation for those who need ideas for antis, geeeez

Oops...wasn't aware of the // stuff.

rick458
March 13, 2003, 11:02 AM
I do believe you should clear it with the Preacher/Pastor and Elders as there may be a Church Constitutional decision on it

Felonious Monk
March 13, 2003, 11:10 AM
Rick458--

I don't want to make it a bible thumping war.
That said, II Hezekiah 14:19 says "Better to ask forgiveness than permission, for bureaucracy is a tool of the Evil One". :p

Yohan-- Sorry for getting my dander up. I didn't realize the // signified playing the opposite side. Apologies to you! :uhoh:

PATH
March 13, 2003, 11:14 AM
When in church I always have my Kel-Tec in my pocket.

Mute
March 13, 2003, 12:51 PM
I'll play along.

To DF,

Jesus did not resist the Romans because it would have went against His' and God's plans. The time for his persecution and eventual execution on the cross was at hand. As to Jesus and his discples never having had a sword in the synagogue. You know this how? If there's some biblical reference to this I certainly don't know about it. I want a specific passage saying so not speculation from your own "understanding" of how the church is a holy place and guns are evil or wrong....blah, blah, blah.

As to weapons in church being paranoid, hypocritical and illogical, tell that to the pastor and deacon that were gunned down by a mentally disturbed, former church member, in the church I used to attend. I guess they weren't paranoid, hypocritical or illogical. But they ARE dead. Gee, a gun would have stopped the murderer. What a surprise.

Skunkabilly
March 13, 2003, 12:52 PM
But you'll notice He didn't tell them to throw their swords away. He told them to put their swords away. Big difference.

Hammer back, safety on and holstered! ;)

Skunkabilly
March 13, 2003, 01:35 PM
From a legal standpoint, what could happen if someone took down the two nogoodniks, who ended up to be local jokers playing a stunt, and the subguns ended up being Airsofts?

Not sure how different states treat reacting in good faith to a threat? (i.e. guy with finger under shirt "gimme yer wallet")

rick458
March 13, 2003, 01:53 PM
From a legal standpoint if some body points firearms at you
and threatens your life it is not necassarry to detirmine the manufacturer of the firearm.
if it turns out to be a toy but looks close enough to a real weapon
you are still in the clear

MrAcheson
March 13, 2003, 02:00 PM
Skunk,

The Antis would have a field day and call for more legislation, etc. The shooter would probably not be criminally charged provided he was legally carrying at the time. The shooter would definitely face civil proceedings from the dumbasses' families though and that could take years and years.

SoDFW Jason
March 13, 2003, 02:09 PM
I saw something similar to this on another board. MY pastor has a Beretta 96 proudly displayed on his hip while in the pulpit(Fort Worth police Sgt.). I hold CHL classes in my church basement. Out of 100 members in regular attendance, at least 20 are armed and ready. Bad day at my church for the guys in black.......

Poodleshooter
March 13, 2003, 03:29 PM
It's illegal in my state :(
I obey the law. If, however, it becomes the habit of terrorists to strike at churches, my policy will change, regardless of the law.

Jim March
March 13, 2003, 03:40 PM
Skunkabilly: under California rules, you may use deadly force "when in fear of losing your life or suffering great bodily injury".

What matters is what's going through YOUR head, as you cannot know what's going through theirs.

This is also sometimes known as the "reasonable person" test: "what would a reasonable person do in this circumstance?".

Now, if you happen to figure out that they ARE some sort of fake gun, fine. Otherwise, this was just a weird form of suicide on their parts and you're not legally or morally responsible for the outcome.

(NOTE: while the standards above for California are fairly typical in the US, states do vary some. If you're packing blades or bangthings and don't know YOUR state's "use of force rules", you're making a serious mistake.)

Hkmp5sd
March 13, 2003, 03:42 PM
From a legal standpoint, what could happen if someone took down the two nogoodniks, who ended up to be local jokers playing a stunt, and the subguns ended up being Airsofts?

Given that the scenerio has church members rushing for the exits because they believe they are about to be shot, it would be considered justified homicide. No difference than some idiot pointing a toy gun at a cop and getting blown away. If the average person in that position thinks the gun is real and the danger is present, justified.

Skunkabilly
March 13, 2003, 05:22 PM
Actually the knife and use of force laws in CA are quite reasonable....

SoDFW Jason, what makes you think a bad guy will try that in a TEXAN church? I mean, that's like a stray dog walking into a Chinese restaurant. It could happen, but if it has half a brain.... :D

Sam Adams
March 13, 2003, 06:09 PM
In case anyone wants the Jewish take on this...

People are commanded to do anything to save a life (yours or someone else's) except worshipping a false god or murdering someone. This includes carrying a weapon on the Sabbath or other holidays when carrying anything is generally forbidden.

In my temple, I know that at least 4 or 5 other regulars (besides me) carry regularly. The rabbi even carries, though not on the Sabbath or other holidays. The temple also hires an off-duty cop to provide security, on those occasions, but that's not good enough for me.

As for the example given, I seriously doubt that anyone entering with guns and clad in black would have had much of an opportunity to say anything. We have several Israelis in our congregation, and they've been trained well.

Quartus
March 13, 2003, 06:14 PM
former Navy but know how to shoot despite that handicap due to redneck, farmboy upbringing

We'll forgive your handicap, Joe. It wasn't your fault - you were young then. :D




Not to rain on your parades, folks, but that email is a bastardization of a true story. But it happened in Roosia back in the days when the KGB was fond of breaking into secret Christian meetings and beating everyone found there. It was a good way to smoke out any informers.

Stevie-Ray
March 13, 2003, 06:51 PM
Once again, I must bring up the fact that Jesus did not attack back when he was arrested by the Romans. He simply followed their orders. Yes, but Jesus was perfect. We gun-toting Christians are not.

coonan357
March 13, 2003, 07:27 PM
being our church is in now a large musilum area of chicago ( sw suburbs ) our pastor has several undercover parishioners ( IE armed guards )around him at all times ,as someone has made a threat to him . I know several of these people and would need to say the 2 Bgs would be gonners if this occured because these Parishioners are spread out in the congrigation during service .

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