What's the deal with benchrest shooters?


March 31, 2005, 07:42 PM
I've been suppressing my anger for a while now but I can't take it anymore. Benchrest shooters, what's your problem? I know that I should judge everyone individually, and for the most part I do. I also suspect there are some fine people out there who shoot benchrest. My problem is the attitude these guys have at my local range. They truly think they are the superior shooters. I'm sick of the dismissive glances when they see my target, fired offhand, doesn't stack up to their little nice neat target. I'm sure some of you know what I mean. The local guys are the most non-friendly bunch I've ever been around. My experience shows that shooters in general are some of the friendliest people out there, but these guys trash that thought. Maybe somebody more articulate than me can better express this opinion. I just had to get it off my shoulders. Thank you.

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March 31, 2005, 07:57 PM
In all due respect , understanding you are angry, I would consider editing your original post as to reflect better on you, THR and in the event Grammaw comes around - please. :)

In anything there are those whom attitudes and behaviors reflect badly on the whole. I competed in Skeet for instance, there exists a razzing b/t Skeet shooters and Trap shooters...then again I was ashamed of some of MY fellow Skeeters and their behaviors.

Benchrest folks - I respect them. I have been around them and caught some criticism, I told them I was not a benchrest shooter, had more trigger time with a shotgun - Ask if they had a minute to teach me, share something.

One fellow did, at first he was a bit "rough", I mean he was having to take baby steps with me. I could understand his frustrations.

Ended up he had been wanting to learn shotgunning...I said I would be happy to assist. He kept apologizing for being a bit critical and rough on our first meeting. I told him to shut up , don't aim but point and keep swinging...laughter erupted and we called it even.

Turned out this fellow became a great shotgunner, and friend...even though we started out on the wrong foot.

He lost 1st place on his first tourney in E class , took 3rd. " I aimed, I didn't swing, how come I dropped them birds".

Dang benchrest folks can't move - skeeters can't stop moving...it is all good. Still don't know what to think of them trap folks tho'. :neener:

March 31, 2005, 08:01 PM
I have been wondering what the deal is with shooting cliques, myself.

Trap vs Skeet,
Trap/Skeet vs the other range
Benchresters vs Everyone
Everyone vs BP

What's the deal?

I haven't personally seen much attitude by sport choice, but I hear it talked about a LOT. (At least at the SGVGC in Duarte.)

March 31, 2005, 08:01 PM
EVERY club, and not only gun-clubs, cannot exist without these Nazis. There is ALWAYS someone that tells you what you HAVE to do or otherwise being expelled from their "brotherhood".

I despise and ignore them.

Just relax, get some real friends shooting with you, and the range-Nazis will leave you alone. Sometimes, a conversation with the club-manager or range-officer helps.

Don't give up shooting because of annoying people. They will poisoning themselves with their anger! :)

March 31, 2005, 08:14 PM
Understand I have friends that shoot different sports than I did/ do.
I have participated in some other disciplines over the years.

I have shot trap, 5 stand, Sporting clays , Live Pigeon and such besides Skeet. Used to competed using rifles <gasp> back when the earth was flat. Done a bit of various handgunning too...

Best I can figure it Trap folks are jealous we Skeeters can do it 25 times in a row in 8 different positions. :D

Skeeters are not afraid to face their evil clay opponent either [ station 8] :uhoh: :eek: :neener:

3...2...1...about time for Trapper, Dave Mc to respond now. :D

I'm gonna have fun , I'm going to pass forward what I can,and humbly accept anything passed forward to me.

There is more to responsible firearm ownership - than firearms.

Might be drinking a coke, eating a candy bar talking to a person that does not shoot what you do...needs an address for a CongressCRitter instead. ;)

March 31, 2005, 08:20 PM
Sadly - ''mine is better than yours'' - or some variation on that theme always seems to be in evidence, to some degree.

My largest club, like some others, is very shotgun oriented - which is fine - lot of skeet and sporting clay shooters in particular. They do tho at times seem to forget there are other disciplines and can be heard to complain when parts of the annual schedule they consider should be theirs, are given over to ''non-clay busting''.

Same sadly applies with some of those who shoot CBA - they too think the club revolves around them. Guess it'll happen about anywhere, where not all folks shoot same stuff.

Glad to say tho - the guys I shoot with in IDPA, and most of the casual shooters I find on the other ranges in the club, rifle and pistol - are for most part fine - the types of folks we all enjoy being around.

The benchrest shooters can, in worst cases, probably project the worst signs of ''superiority'' - usually too I think that gets directed towards the younger shooters. Great pity. What they do tho is a very concentration-intensive deal and I do know that on occasions they do have something to genuinely moan about - instance when ill mannered goons turn up and without any thought, go blasting everything in sight! And they were there first.

Steve's mention of showing some interest can on occasions be a good way to go - and many benchies will enjoy discussing loads and finer points of rifle bedding etc.

However - there will sadly always be those who are convinced thay have special genes ... and will not want to ''soil'' themselves, conversing with ''underlings'' ... sad fact but true at times. Only way to cope is probably to ignore and do best possible to get on with what is your bag. That gets harder tho when bad manners are involved and then it is hard as heck not to want to reply in kind!

March 31, 2005, 08:43 PM
I understand where you are coming from but it really is not something to get that angry about unless someone is actively interfering with your shooting.

Wherever I go to shoot, be it alone at the range or with friends out to the desert, I shoot for me. I don't try to beat someone else's target, I worry about my own.

I got that look you are talking about last time I was at the rifle range. I had my Marlin 1894 and was shooting offhand at 50 yds to try out some new ammo. I saw the person give me the look. His rifle was never lifted from bench the whole time. I was having a good old time working the Marlin. When the range went cold and we walked out to the targets he took a good look at mine. Oh well. I had all the holes inside the black and was starting to do a good job of eating out the center of the paper. Not too bad for off hand as far as I am concerned. And that is all I am concerned about.....my target.

For me, as long as I am not acting in an unsafe manner or interfering with anyone else, I don't give a rat's bottom what anyone thinks about my shooting style.

Take a deep breath, and relax. Go have fun with what you are doing and never mind those "looks". Just let them do their thing and you do yours.

On a side note....
Heaven forbid, if the Marlin would ever have to be used in a SD/HD situation, it is a fair bet I would not have a bench to sit down to. That is why I practice offhand with all my firearms. Not to mention I have more fun that way.


March 31, 2005, 08:43 PM
I don't see what the big deal is as gun owners have always been at odds with each other, even before I was born. Some voted for Clinton. Some voted for Kerry. Some voted for Al Gore. Some supported the assault weapon ban. Some think that no one should own automatic weapons. I have heard some of this garbage at my local range. :barf:

March 31, 2005, 08:45 PM
I don't understand this either.

To me, all guns are cool. :D

BTW P95, I am still counting on you to organize that shooting supply part of the Baby Shower... ;)


March 31, 2005, 08:50 PM
BTW P95, I am still counting on you to organize that shooting supply part of the Baby Shower... Yeah right!! :p :D

I am (in blood type terms) what is known as ''universal recipient'' - no good as a donor! LOL :D

March 31, 2005, 09:10 PM
We have one, only one, thank God. My opinion is that bench rest shooters are the lest skilled marksmen.

They have to have (to be) planted on a bench with their weapon supported with the bench rest vise. They have to wiggle this way then wiggle that way they he may shoot or he may take the bolt out and run another patch through the barrel. :rolleyes:

Our man does not do well at all when we fire matches.

March 31, 2005, 09:53 PM
Bench shooting is not for me but, he's not using my gun, target or bullets so it's none of my business.

I go to the range to enjoy myself and improve my skills. Everyone shoots for their own reasons. As long as someone is not unsafe around me, it's not my business. Lighten up and as others have noted you may just make a new friend.

March 31, 2005, 11:02 PM
This post struck home with me but for the exact opposite reason. At my Club everyone is into position shooting and I get the cold shoulder and critical comments cause I use a bench.
We have a nice range for rifle with target positions at 25, 50, 100 and 200yds. 16 bench's and its under roof. (someone must have liked it once upon a time)

The upshot is this, I've purchased a rifle to shoot position match's and several of my new buddy's have built bench guns. Its taken 2 years but I think we finally can respect each others passion and the difficulty involved in either.

Bear Gulch
March 31, 2005, 11:04 PM
BR shooters have developed some of the tech and new materials that we "normal" shooters benefit from today. I never though I'd be the one standing up for them. :neener:

Guess what, we're all gun owners. That puts us all in the sights of the antis. The more they can divide us, the easier we'll be to beat.

Zak Smith
March 31, 2005, 11:10 PM
Paging bogie!

Isn't it great there are so many different aspects to shooting? Makes it much more interesting.

March 31, 2005, 11:17 PM
Bogie is off in TN or somewhere taking five grand from some loudmouth. He'll be back soon though.


March 31, 2005, 11:30 PM
Eh, I'll never be a benchrest shooter. I've seen them give my targets nasty looks, I give their 'setups' odd looks. I trained a specific way, for a specific style of shooting. I prefer shooting from the prone, and that's how I am most accurate.

I suppose I could shrink my groupings if I bought all the equipment and accessories that benchresters typically use. To me, there are more important aspects than mere accuracy. To each their own.

Guy B. Meredith
April 1, 2005, 01:14 AM
As a range safety officer at Chabot I never peceived attitude on the part of bench rest shooters. I suppose that they might have an attitude, though as it is common for people to get into "things" and try to out buy the Joneses and take status from the gear. Same thing happens with bicyclists and automobile/SUV owners.

Doesn't bother me--I am not interested in the latest and greatest gear. Just not my sport. In fact, gear is just not generally interesting, but rather peoples' skills.

April 1, 2005, 04:49 AM
Benchrest is a relaxing sport, shooting small groups is fun, combines many shooting disciplines.

I like to reload and that's a large part of benchrest shooting.

Shooting accurately at long ranges [600 yards +] doping the wind, ranging estimates, trigger control, breathing techniques, load development, + other considerations make benchrest shooting a premier game for the serious rifle shooter.


April 1, 2005, 01:19 PM
Isn't it great there are so many different aspects to shooting? Makes it much more interesting.

Roger that! I don't have the patience for BR but certainly respect those who like to make one ragged little hole from a lot of bullets. I'm just thrilled to shoot 1 moa with my M1A from the sandbags.

But this thread does bring to mind one of the major problems of the shooting sports today . . . a large percentage of shooters have the attitude that their's is the only discipline worth preserving. That's why it's so easy for the grabbers to ban certain un-PC firearms, like EBR's, .50 BMG rifles, MG's, etc. If we don't hang together, we're gonna hang separately. Look at England and Australia.

Old Dog
April 1, 2005, 01:50 PM
a large percentage of shooters have the attitude that their's is the only discipline worth preserving. That's why it's so easy for the grabbers to ban certain un-PC firearms, like EBR's, .50 BMG rifles, MG's, etc. If we don't hang together, we're gonna hang separately.
Exactly. We are ALL shooters and should get rid of the cliqueishness that does exist.

Once upon a time, I quit a gun club after one visit because I was told, straight up, by the old guys that were all the club officers, that they didn't want a lot of young guys with "military" rifles (buddy and I showed up with AR-15s, M9s and 1911s) or doing "combat shooting." Excellent range facilities, bunch of dinosaurs who believed the rifle range was only for benchrest shooting or sighting in one's M-700 or Model 70 and the pistol range was only for bullseye style shooting. Anyway, I suspect that once all the old guys died off, this range went kaput since they really didn't want any new members, especially, God forbid, anyone interested in other shooting disciplines.

I have also seen gun clubs that really don't seem all too keen to recruit young shooters and look askance at those under the age of 30. And I know we've all seen the condescending looks someone gets when he shows up at the club with a Remington 870 Express and all the old guys are standing around with their $2500 shotguns ... We absolutely have to get more tolerant of all the different shooting disciplines and for sure, we need to get better at recruiting new shooters, regardless of their background and the types of guns or shooting they initially prefer.

April 1, 2005, 03:35 PM
I shoot .22 benchrest matches in the summer. My scores keep me from feeling too superior! I think the trigger control needed to shoot even a half way decent benchrest score has helped me in other types of shooting too.

I also shoot offhand with target and deer rifles, practice with a variety of handguns, and even shoot burp guns occasionally. My son is interested in shotgun shooting, so I'll probably start shooting trap or skeet with him this summer. As long as it's burning powder I can have a good time.

As long as no one screws up on safety, I'm the soul of nice.

April 1, 2005, 03:50 PM
My experience is similar to many people I think. I've had people scoff at me for shooting a 9mm, then go and exhibit some of the hardest flinches I've ever seen and chalk it up to "usin' a man's gun!" At the club I shoot rifles at, I've met some of the best people ever, and I can usually size them up immediately by how they introduce themselves. I am not a BR shooter by any means, yet I've still had people scowl at me while using sandbags after they had to dig behind their seats for jackets, blankets, or sleeping bags to rest their gun on to sight in their deer rifle. Skeet people will put down trap shooters, sporting clay folks will look down on skeet shooters, and people in limited 10 look occasionally think less of production class shooters (such as myself)

brian roberts
April 1, 2005, 04:23 PM
life is suffering, the root of all suffering is desire..... calm the inner child, associate not with those who need to reduce your efforts. be not the one who needs their association. care not...turn within for the answer..... hey! you might not be articulate, but you CAN SPELL!!!! that in itself is a leg up(did you ast them bench-guys to spel???) :cool:

April 1, 2005, 04:24 PM
As a range safety officer at Chabot I never peceived attitude on the part of bench rest shooters. I suppose that they might have an attitude, though as it is common for people to get into "things" and try to out buy the Joneses and take status from the gear. Same thing happens with bicyclists and automobile/SUV owners.

Guy, I've shot a lot at Chabot, and also have never seen any of that myself on the ranges. although most of the time I'm there I do the 3 gun and PPC matches.

April 1, 2005, 05:50 PM
I got back into shooting a few months ago.

I've always wanted a Winchester 94, so I bought one. I asked one of the guys at work that shoots (a benchrester) where the local range was. He asked me what kind of rifle I had; when I told him a .30-30 he told me he'd tell me where the range was when I bought a rifle worthy of the range he goes to (100 out to 1000yards), and to go lob my bullets somewhere else. :banghead:

I told him I'd send for my 03A3 if that was the case, then I was told that the 2 groove barrel it has isn't conducive to accuracy.

So I shoot my Winchester at an indoor 25 yard range, yay. One of the other guys at work told me about a 100 yard range in the area. I just haven't had the chance to get out there.

April 1, 2005, 06:40 PM
It's not just benchrest shooters. As a matter of fact, it's not just shooters at all. Any hobby or leisure pursuit, especially ones like the shooting sports that involve the aquisition and use of expensive equipment, where the sky is the limit, has great potential to breed this kind of behavior. Equipment snobs are everywhere. I have been an amateur photographer fo almost 45 years, have owned a trailer full of expensive equipment, and spent countless hours in the darkroom in that time. But let me show up with my little point an shoot digital where some Ansel Adams wannabe is toteing an enormous phall... er telephoto in his hand and his nose goes straight up like I don't know an F stop from the F word. Mostly, I just ignore people like that. I know what I can do with a camera ( and a rifle ), and frankly, they just don't matter much.

April 1, 2005, 07:22 PM
Morty76 said...
I was told that the 2 groove barrel it has isn't conducive to accuracy.Tell him to go to the 500 yard line and pull butts for you from the top of the berm. Then you can show him how "condusive to accuracy" it is.

This reminds me of a motorcycle/car axiom. "I'd rather ride a slow bike fast than a fast bike slow." or "It's more fun to drive a slow car fast than a fast car slow." I know I would rather take an under $500 firearm that isn't supposed to be a 1km tack driver and get a decent group at 200-300, than dump $10k or better into what amounts to an expensive remote hole-punch.

Gear Whores and Techno Weenies are everywhere. F em.

Don't get me wrong, One of the nicest guys I have met at the range is a BR shooter. I think Benchrest shooting is peachy keen, (might do it when a fat chunk of cash falls into my lap,) but sometimes they turn the doghouse into the snobhouse.

April 1, 2005, 07:50 PM
Try to look at this from a different angle. If I was around a bunch of guys that all were formula one racers...they wouldn't think much of my ride...at all. Bench shooters are the kind of guys that wring out the very highest level possable of accuracy for their equipment. They do stuff I'll never achieve. But, maybe they can't hit with a shotgun. Or maybe they can't put five of twenty in a six inch circle at fifty feet with a pistol. So let anybody sneer that wants to...they just hurt themselves. If you're getting reasonable groups shooting offhand, or the other "positions", you are doing well. Thats the kind of shooting I'm most impressed with. I hunt...and I've never found a bench where I hunt. :D Keep shooting, have FUN, and ignore the ones that distract you from enjoying our sport...life is just too short for that! All that said...I think I'll go shoot tomorrow. I've got a .22 I want to try, off hand, fifty yds, just for fun!

P5 Guy
April 1, 2005, 10:01 PM
I got chewed out for making too much noise with my M1 shooting a few lanes down from a heavy weight benchrester shooting 300 Magnums. My barrel was too short he said.

April 2, 2005, 02:16 AM
Don't get me wrong, One of the nicest guys I have met at the range is a BR shooter.

Yeah same here - in fact several years ago I pulled up to the residence of a "local" BR shooter I never met before , introduced myself to him and he allowed me to shoot a group with his wife's rifle , showed me his reloading setup , explained his sport and basically made me feel very welcome.

There are horse's rears to be found in all walks of life and in all types of shooting disciplines. Fortunately most of the shooters at my range - even though we are diversified - get along quite well.

April 10, 2005, 08:55 AM
"They do stuff I'll never achieve."

No, their equipment does stuff you'll never achieve. They just buy it. Anyone can do that.

Marine recruits at Parris Island shoot expert scores every week with some of the most beat up M16's in the world. That's acheivement!

Semper Fi!

April 10, 2005, 11:33 AM
No, their equipment does stuff you'll never achieve. They just buy it. Anyone can do that.

So anyone can just buy the equipment and become immediately proficient? You are saying that if YOU bought the equipment YOU would be competitive today? If that is the case then novice BR shooters and veterans should be pretty much equal.

Quintin Likely
April 10, 2005, 12:29 PM
I only shoot highpower rifle competitively, and by the sounds of it (yes, I haven't dabbled in other competitive shooting forms, so I might be wrong), I'm blessed with shooting with some of the finest human beings out there. Folks who will trip over themselves to help you out, be it loaning gear or giving you tips before, during and after a match, to see that you do well and have a good time.

Kinda sucks, we're all shooters, regardless of whether it's the guy with a $3K benchrest rifle putting one bullet after another into paper or the guy a couple stalls down from him plinking with his .30-30. United we stand, divided we fall.

April 10, 2005, 12:54 PM
Y'know, it occurs to me that the much-ballyhooed "crabbiness" on the part of benchrest shooters might -- just might, mind you -- be the result of a bunch of unpleasant encounters some of these guys have had with the rest of us.

Think about it.

Would you like it if you were working on fast draw & fires at the range, and the guy next to you obviously thought you were a poor shooter because your target wasn't just one ragged hole? You may have been working on speed, not accuracy, but that doesn't mean his attitude was any less annoying.

Would you like it if you were working slowfire distant shots with your handgun, and the guy next to you sneered at you because your shots were inappropriate for self-defense? You may have been practicing on paper for the next sillhouette match, but that doesn't mean the other guy's attitude didn't get under your skin.

Would you like it if you were practicing for IPSC, and one of the guys on the range made fun of you because you had equipment appropriate for that discipline, and not for his own? Unlikely -- again, the guy's attitude is going to grate on you even if you have no interest in doing his kind of shooting.

So whyinhell would you expect the benchrest guys to react with friendly smiles to folks who come onto the range and sneer at them because they aren't shooting the same discipline as the other guys on the line?

My experience is that most folks give what they get. If you think the benchrest guys at your club aren't giving you friendly enough responses when you encounter them, maybe it's because the other shooters at your club have sneered the friendliness right out of them.


You'll find the people here the same, the wise man said. -- E. Markham

April 10, 2005, 03:57 PM
I think most of us have a problem with the nose in the air arrogance some and I do mean some BR shoots have. You just have to let it go and consider the person your dealing with. Thank God my gun club is full of all types of shooters. There aren't many BR guys but all forms of Shotgun, rifle and pistol shooters. We have silhouette pistol and rifle as well as combat pistol and rifle as well a sniper shoots plus paint ball, Archery and for the rich guys we even have a Full Auto range. :D I use to belong to two clubs with that attitude toward people that shot different disciplines then the status quot. I don't belong there anymore I spend my money where I'm welcome and happy shooting.

April 10, 2005, 07:08 PM
"I also suspect there are some fine people out there who shoot benchrest."

There certainly are, and not just the ones I run into locally - and I've never completed in a benchrest match.

Some time back I made a half-hearted plea on br.com for a (just discontinued) Jewell trigger for a Finnfire. I got an e-mail from a stranger telling me to call a number because somebody knew somebody that had one. Okay, I called. Got the man's wife at first and it was dinnertime in their time zone. Oops. Come to find out I'd reached an extremely well known Hall of Fame BR shooter and gunsmith. If I'd had the name to go with the phone number I'd have been too awestruck to call and bother him. Anyway, I gave him my name and number and he said he'd pass it on.

A bit later I got a call from a man getting out of rimfire BR. He agreed to take a personal check and then went and sent the 2 Jewells BEFORE he got my $400+ check.

Come to find out, these folks are just like that.

But then again, I get along with most everybody. ;)


April 10, 2005, 07:24 PM
I'm sick of the dismissive glances when they see my target

I'm curious if you've ever discussed this with them, or if that is simply your perception of what they may be thinking after seeing your target?

I've noticed that most of the intra-sport "rivalry" is more legend than reality (fueled by a good measure of the above). Sure, Trap and Skeet shooters razz each other, and everyone razzes HP and their white shooting coats (ascots), but that's part of the fun. If you've encountered a group of true asshat shooters, I think we should alert the press, because they are the exception, not the rule.

One other comment Why the heck do you care what they think? Are YOU happy with your performance? If so, move along, nothing to see here.

30 cal slob
April 10, 2005, 07:27 PM
In any hobby or pastime, you're always going to have equipment snobs out there.

I'm lucky. I have yet to find a benchrest shooter who has snobbishly put me down, even when I'm hammering away with a full-auto (and yes, I do shoot benchrest now and then when I can motivated to reload enough ammo).

I owe a lot of my precision reloading knowledge to the generosity of many quality benchrest shooters. I've become a much better shooter (and hunter!) because of knowledge passed on by benchrest shooters.

Actually, most of the disdain I see from the snob gallery is focused on what they call "slob" shooters who spray and pray their semiauto battle rifles without consideration as to where the bullets are going (and I've been guilty of doing that :D ). Some of this is (perhaps understandably) based on safety concerns, or maybe they just don't like the distraction of an uncontrolled rapid fire string while they wait for their barrel to cool down so that they can make one perfect shot.

I can see how a superiority mentality might arise from the personalities of a few who would want to control every ballistic variable from the ground up, starting with meticulously loaded ammo and very expensive custom rifle(s). Come to think of it, maybe benchrest shooters are control freaks. ;)

Art Eatman
April 10, 2005, 07:36 PM
The whole deal with benchrest is precision. That's precision in the primers, the cases, the powder charge and the bullets. It's having everything "just so" in the rifle, whether bedding or trued bolt-face or whatever. To be competitive, one must be nit-picky in EVERY detail.

You can buy all the topnotch gear in the world, but if you don't know how to use it PROPERLY, shame on your happy rear.

I've done the IPSC thing. It was fun. I've shot skeet and trap. Same. Sporting Clays is a hoot. I work over my hunting rifles and tailor the loads for maximum accuracy--because it's quite enjoyable.

I like to sit on my back porch and shoot pistols, just plinking. Everything from antique stuff to the quite modern, thank you. And sometimes I go down to my "real range" and work on various self-defense drills.

I don't care what sport you can think of, you'll find mostly good guys and a few horse's patoots. That's just people. I've never judged any variety within a sport by a few grumpy curmudgeons.

Shooting is shooting. If somebody's happy doing their own thing, I ain't about to rain on their parade...

:), Art

April 11, 2005, 12:25 AM
Well, I probably know a few of the folks you don't like, and I think they're some of the finest folks around.

Here's the truth. If your rifle is not accurate, it isn't accurate. And no amount of "hey, I held it up and waved it around and painted it black" is going to make it accurate.

And I was at Knob Creek, not TN - that was Rich...

Stiletto Null
May 15, 2006, 05:15 PM

The guys at FETC (my usual haunt) have gotten used to me coming in and doing something more or less random every few minutes. One minute I'll be working my CZ .22 at 100m, seated with my elbows on the bench...and the next I'll be banging out ten-round strings from my SKS at 7yd as quickly as I can.

Joyful ruckus.

If you ask me, if you're not being an ass, I couldn't care less how you're shooting (note that "being an ass" includes "not being safe"), so long as you're not punching my target by accident. The more the merrier. :)

May 15, 2006, 05:36 PM
In a nutshell, benchrest shooters are the nerds of the shooting community.

That sounds like a slam, but it isn't really intended as one. The world needs people who are picky and neurotic and obsessed with minutiae and details the rest of us couldn't care less about, or can't be bothered with.

Unfortunately, a direct consequence of being a nerd is a pronounced and often dramatic lack of social skills - which means that while I'm glad the nerds are around, I'm probably not going to invite any of them over for dinner and a beer.

May 15, 2006, 05:45 PM
Interesting thread, I haven't witnessed any snobery by the BR crowd. Some people are more approachable than others. Maybe timeing is the key, he may have a new rifle and has chosen this wind free morning to find out if his rifle will shoot screamers, (sub .100) or it may be just another, ho-hum BR Rifle.You may want to consider the thought process going on in a bench rest shooters mind, he has a $1000.00 action, a $500.00 barrel, a $700.00 kevlar stock, a $250.00 jewel trigger, a $1000.00 scope on a new BR rifle, he is into small groups. He needs to shoot before the wind comes up, he, like most people has a limited amount of time, his wind flags are up, he makes final adjustments, just as he's ready someone calls a cease fire, he looks down range and someone has shot a $100.00 wind flag, he has to be in the office in 30 minutes, lots of examples of why he has a disgusted look on his face, besided it takes super concentration to shoot good bench rest. And just for the record, it takes far more than superb equipment to consistantly shoot those little bitty tiny groups!

May 15, 2006, 06:32 PM
Very well put, xring44.

All the benchresters I've met have gone out of their way to help me and any other newbie who has showed up at their matches to see if the sport has any appeal for them (the newbies) personally. The BR crowd seems to me to be like most shooters in that they offer a great deal of encouragement to potential new shooters as they want to see their sport grow.


May 15, 2006, 06:38 PM
I have been told by Highpower shooters that I would never be able to compete if I didn't have "the coat, the glove, the spotting scope, the modern rifle ( I shoot a NM M1 Garand in 308). I shoot wearing an issue USMC shooting coat, a spotting scope my wife gave me, a light leather glove, and the rifle mentioned above. I tell them that I compete against myself, and I generally win! Some understand, many don't. I really don't care.

Livin in Texas

May 15, 2006, 06:41 PM
20% of the human race are idiots. Trust me, I know because I think I have met most of them. But they are absolutely worth ignoring.
Anyway, I'm 67 and for half of my time at the range I'm firing a 64 year old military rifle at 200 yards with open sights. And I get a respectable target, not great mind you, but I'm happy. What the heck, at my age I'm lucky to even see a target at that range.
So whenever someone has a comment such as "Using buckshot?" I simply hand them the rifle and a box of shells and say, "Go to it genius, show the old dude how to do it." in a very loud voice.
You know, no one has taken my offer yet. They leave, I laugh and then call my buddy when I get home, so he can get a good laugh too.
The bench guys that are truly good shots would come over to offer you help if they thought you had a problem, or if you asked them for help. It is only the "almost" good that snicker, and they are fun to ignore because it drives them up the walls.:)

Old Time Hunter
May 15, 2006, 06:59 PM
XRING44, frankly my dear...I don't give a damn! Who gives a flying F how much money or how much available time some snotty bitch guy that is attempting to group sub what ever! The guy standing at the end of the line, like Monty76, with his Winchester 94 trying to hit a 4' target at 100yds his FIRST TIME out, is more important to our future as rifleman/woman to pursue our hobbies. The snubbing attitude that prevails from some of the benchrest guys is just abhorent. Just last week I took out my new 1895M (450 Marlin) to the 100 yard range for it's new try out. Fortunately there was some kind of benchrest better than thou guy next to me. I was shooting "freestanding" like I would if I was hunting. After a few shots, the br yells at me that I should sit down or go to a different range since my gun is too loud and I am all over the target anyways. As he is trying to tell me how unskilled I am, I accidently took two shots that took the target legs out from under his target at 100 yards! His target crashed back and to the left and he turned red... I apologized, it must of been the wind drift. He started getting huffy, you know the type, and I had to tell him quitely to his ear...that if he attempts to stand up, I would have to rip his head off and crap down his neck. We got along much better then.

May 15, 2006, 07:06 PM
My experience with BR shooters has been the exact opposite. The group I met (Pennsylvania Ironmen Score Shooters) were very friendly, and more than willing to share information and equipment. I think you get what you give in most interactions. BR shooters get alot of the "it all their fancy equipment, I could do that easily" which simply isant true. Just like any shooting discipline, you have to be a helluva shooter to win.

May 15, 2006, 07:16 PM
go to a different range since my gun is too loud

Your rifle is too loud for a rifle range. Now that is funny. You should have asked to borrow his BB gun. Hmmm, maybe it's 21% idiots?

May 15, 2006, 07:22 PM
Personally, I consider benchrest shooting like going to the driving range, where offhand, kneeling, and prone are like a full round of golf. I use the bench to fine-tune aspects of my shooting like sights, breathing, and trigger pull (and if I reloaded, powder loads). The rest can be a very usful tool, but I also know just how hard it is lifting that rifle and I would never mock anyone who could get on paper at 100 yards (if they weren't on paper I'd tell them to move back to 50 until they improve). I don't deal this the Range-Nazis, if they say anything I just smile, nod, put on my hearing protection, and load another magazine. I am only concerned about how my group was compared to my last one, not some a$$hat with a $3,000 rifle (or even a $300 rifle) and a bad additude.:rolleyes:

May 15, 2006, 07:31 PM
So, Old Time Hunter,

You responded to rudeness by destroying property, and threatening violence.

How very high road of you.

Old Time Hunter
May 15, 2006, 08:43 PM
So, Owen, at what point do you think that I might have come off or even if I ever was on the high road in this situation? Since you were not there, it might be more beneficial to understand the action if you knew more of the story;

When he did not immediately gain a reaction from me when he was yelling at me, he picked up a hand full of sand and threw it in my direction to get my attention. Now granted, he did not do it like an out of control teenager, but more like a better than thou corporate type climber that could always use the excuse that he was just trying to get my attention. At that point I made a slight glance at him and then continued to complete the task at hand. A cease fire was called and the guy walks over to me and starts pointing his finger at the direction of my chin and screaming that I should NOT BE FIRING MY RIFLE IN A MANNER THAT BREAKS HIS CONSENTRATION and that me and my blue collar gun should go to a range that would befit my status. Mind you, my only reaction was to cross my arms, lean back against the bench, and look down at him. At no time did I raise my voice, nor even say anything to him. As soon as the course was called clear, I took my position and fired at my target. Out of the corner of my eye, I noticed that he was trying to tell me iin sign language that I was #1, when I proceeded to ignore him he began yelling again. At that point, I guess the wind picked up and carried a couple of my shots down wind. Of course, I apologized. And when I suggested that he not stand up for fear of his safety, I never raised my voice and never did through out this entire episode.
As far as the destruction of property, I guess I can understand your feeling pertaining to that. Worse yet, I am on the crew that builds and donates the target mounts to the range, boy that made it twice as bad!
Hate to tap all you BR's because of one bad apple, but it does seem you all came out of the same barrel. Arrogance and confidence are often mistaken for each other, I have to say that from what I have seen, the general skien of the BR's appears to be arrogance.

May 15, 2006, 09:10 PM
"I shoot everything", pretty much sums my shooting habbits.

I shoot Trap with a $300 S&W 1000 that beats up my shoulder, have done a best of 22/25. I hunt turkey with that same $300 gun. If I could find another barrel I'd saw it off and shoot tactical shotgun with it too.

I shoot target with my "acurised by a half drunk armorer" Beretta 92FS, I get smoked by the guys with thier fancy $2500 target guns, but owe well. I shoot 350-380's/400 on NRA match targets.

I shoot my Kimber TLE with knight sites on Steel vs. most who use glocks and fancy race guns, who snicker at me.

I shoot my M4 in some cheese combat rifle matches, I've also gone fox hunting with my M4.

I shoot my wifes NM AR-15 ($1400) with NM iron sites, at 200-1000yrds holding a 7 1/2" group @ 1000 yrds, I snicker inside at the guys with $10k bolt guns out there slamming my groups, while they're useing scopes as expensive as my rifle and they're holding 4-5". I've shot my M4 at the 700 yard line with pretty good sucess too, and many noses turned up.

I'm looking into buying a Remmy 700PSS or LTR and a 870HD for tactical shotgun, I also want an M1, or win one in a Service Match.

I shoot USMC KD courses every year, and my current job as a "Marksman Training Unit Chief" puts me in contact with the KD ranges for M16's and M9's weekly, I also teach Tactical ranges, foreign weapons and machine gun courses... I'm open to any help that will help me shoot better and let me pass it along to other shooters. But I feel I'm more versital than those who only do one type of shooting, unless you're going to help me shoot "your sport" better, do what Grandma said, "if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all". I stay pretty humble when trash talking starts my way, maybe it's do to my feeling that I'm proficient enough, and haven't heavily invested into just one type of shooting event or care too.

I once put the invitation out there to come crawl through the bush and swamps with thier fancy guns build for snipeing, just to see how well the fancy bolt gun would hold up to a week on a real sniper course... this was after being harrassed for haveing an "assult rifle" on a "target range"... which I reminded them it was a USMC Range.

I know what you're saying about the Bench Gun guys, I've never had many run in's with the Skeet guys, but the Guys with fancy Trap guns, always ask how I take the brutality of shooting 4 rounds of trap with a shotgun that doesn't have much for recoil reduction. I think it's a snooty "my gun cost more than yours". Some honestly get mad when they have invested alot of time and money, into shooting a sub MOA and you're out there shooting just over MOA with a 1/10 of the cost or time invested.

May 15, 2006, 09:51 PM
You would never make it on the range I belonged to before I moved. The rule there was if you can't keep your shots on your own target, you will take instruction from the rangemaster, or you will leave. (This was an urban range and safety and containment concerns were paramount.)


Old Time Hunter
May 15, 2006, 09:58 PM
deadin, this range is rural...very rural. Suprisingly the range officers didn't say a thing!

May 15, 2006, 10:04 PM
It doesn't matter what hobby they all have this group buried somewhere.

Chevrolet enthuasts have the Corvette guys

Sports people have Golfers

Fishing people have the Bass Tournament Fisherman

Hunters have the Waterfowlers


Me I rather enjoy bench shooting my rifle for accuracy. But for me it's more about the load and the gun rather than getting the smallest group.

I can have just as much fun tweaking on a remington 7400 in order to get a sub 2" group as I can shooting a varmint rifle that can do 1/4" groups. Or in my current case just how accurate can a MAS 36 be.

May 15, 2006, 10:19 PM
Old Time Hunter, it must be the area you live in, I have been frequenting ranges in this area for 40+ years and have never had anything like you describe happen to me or in my presents. Just lucky I guess.
I don't know that any group of shooters are more or less valuable to the shooting sports. I can however, assure you,that without the BR guys, the equipment you use today would not be capable of the accuracy we all expect from our sporting weapons. The BR group has been the ones who inspired advances in everything from bullets to powder to barrels.

My point, which you missed, was that there are many reasons for someone to mis-understand facial expressions, the look could have been directed at equipment that he paid big bucks for, yet did not perform to his expectations.

As for your encounter with the BR shooter, if you come across with him as you did me, I can understand his behavior.

May 15, 2006, 10:34 PM
Cat Fight on the high road! Whodda thunk it?
I've shot lotsa disciplines, from military-no-foolin'-around-second-place = dead, to trap, to countersniper (the closest I'll ever come to actual benchrest), to IPSC. It's all valuable to me, for I've learned something at every turn. One of those things I've learned is that they all have very different types of folks in each one of those endeavors. It is all just a microcasm of the world population in general, and no particular discipline holds the monopoly on churlish behaviour.
Offensive linemen are the antithesis of linebackers, but they can learn to play together, and both contribute to the TEAM!

Turkey Creek
May 15, 2006, 11:12 PM
My range is the St Louis Benchrest Rifle Club, so obviously much of the shooting there is benchrest, but by no means all of it- I shoot a bit of everything from benchrest rimfire, hunter factory class, and 600 yard, to some blackpowder both cartridge and musket, milsurps, and my "fun guns" like my 44-40 Henry and Springfield trapdoor- Since I shoot a bit of everything I never get very good at any individual discipline but for me it keeps away the bordom of shooting the same thing over and over again- I've never had a condescending experience from any of the pure benchrest boys- They are always interested in sharing their knowledge if I have a question about a particular disipline and more often than not they will come to my bench to check out what I may be shooting, I guess just because it is something different- Most of them will realize that while they are very very good at making a very small grouping at 200 yards, they don't know squat about something like a nice 100 year old Krag, and what it can do with iron sites- A classic example of the benchrest shooters that I have encountered was one morning when one of the varmint guys was practicing at 100 yards and I was a few benches down making great gobs of smoke with my Brown Bess at 50 yards- During one of the cease fires we happened to be walking down to change targets and he veers over to my lane to see what a 75 caliber hole looks like- Now a smoothbore flintlock is not going to group anything at 50 yards but those sporadic 3/4 inch round holes are impressive- He took a long look at my target, shook his head and grinned as he said that his 5 round group of 6 PPC at 100 yards would fit into one of my holes but that he thought that I was having more fun than he was- The rest of the morning was spent shooting and exchanging knowledge about our respective guns- This is typical of my experience with most shooters whether they be benchrest or not- Occaisaionally you will run into an ass but that happens everywhere, not just at the range-

May 16, 2006, 12:44 AM
It has been said of me that "sometimes you don't hit anything." I am not a great shot, that said, no one has ever tried to talk down to me about my shooting abilities. I guess it helps to shoot with friends. Like others have said every hobby has its extremists who think they are the only right way to participate in the hobby. How boring would life be if that were the case? Just shrug it off and keep having fun.

May 16, 2006, 03:38 AM
i think you just hit upon a click within a genus. i raise Boxers, and used to go to a very busy dogpark here in houston. Most every one here is very friendly and knows each other , and knows each others dogs, and how they act and react, and get grouchy, etc. Every now and again, someone would come in , who was obviously a dog lover, but had a twitchy dog( much like the owner's personalities). then if one of our dogs would try to play or chase or play fightwith the new dog, new dog would freak out , and maybe go on the attack. The owner would invariably freak out, get loud , yell scream , etc. all the while blaming you and your dog, then leave the area or move out in a big huff. Whereas all the regulars, would go , that dog needs to learn and socialize, what is that chick or dudes problem? The dog woudla been okay after about 5 or 10 minutes of learning, with a big bunch of dogs, how to act. The jerkstore owner however, would never let this happen. sometimes dogs just have to be dogs for a while , and let them figure it all out.
Same with some shooters who take themselves WAY TO SERIOUS. I met a ex marine shooter at the range one day , who had all the fancy pad gear, and from the prone, was shooting as good or better, with me on my super scoped 22. But this guy was as nice as could be, and readily offered me advice and tips on eye site line, body control, etc.
you jsut happened to run into some jerkstores, same as I have in the dog breeding game. I've had some great dogs, but when i sell from a litter, i would like them to go to people who will show them, it looks good for my bitches and bloodline. But my first concern is that they go to good homes. Some of the Breeders look at me with horror in their eyes, and that i dont spend 10 's of thousands of dollars to show them , and promote them , and advertise them, myself. i try to tell them , hey I breed in my spare time because i enjoy the science of it, and am glad to get them in good homes. I have a regular full time job, this is not my all consuming life, like it is to a lot of these older folks.

May 16, 2006, 05:50 AM
At my local handgun range I normally start at 7 to 10 yards then go out to 15 to 25 yards if I am doing particularly well at the 7 to 10 distance.

I wouldn’t laugh at someone who is all over the paper at 7 yards if the person is just doing their best.

However, I do find it particularly funny when someone comes in; puts up a silhouette that they send to the very far end of the range and then don’t even hit paper.

When it comes to bench rest shooting I am somewhat similar. I have nothing against plinking around as I like to do this too from time to time.

I also don’t find it funny when someone is doing the best they can at say 50 to 150 yards but I do find it ridiculous when someone that can’t shoot well at these distances try to show off by shooting a couple hundred rounds at a silhouette 300 yards away and revels over the 15 to 20 rounds that hit paper.

Ultimately it is the attitude of the shooter that I respond to not their ability.

May 16, 2006, 07:19 AM
Maybe it is how I was raised/taught about shooting, but I have a difficulty understanding why you would even waist your time with something that, as I see it, has very little practical use.

Skeet/Trap, IDPA/IPSC, etc.. are all based on some practical use. If you use a firearm in a real world scenario, this is going to be the fashion you would use it in.

Benchrest/Bullseye shooting just doesn't make sense in my mind.

Is it possible that there is some angle here that I am not seeing?

Educate me.

May 16, 2006, 07:21 AM
Brings to mind another question.

What the heck is the difference between Skeet and Trap shooting?

Some one please explain.

May 16, 2006, 07:37 AM
"IDPA/IPSC, etc.. are all based on some practical use. If you use a firearm in a real world scenario, this is going to be the fashion you would use it in."

IDPA and IPSC are real world based? Not until the targets start shooting back. :D

The benchrest shooters I've met are some of the friendliest, most knowledgeable people around. To a person they've been more than willing to share their experience in building and maintaining a precision rifle and, more importantly, how to read the wind in all sorts of weather conditions.


May 16, 2006, 08:38 AM
Okay, point taken.

As practical as you can get without getting shot.

May 16, 2006, 09:11 AM
Benchrest shooters are driven by perfection, a group of .200 is medicore, a group of .100 is good, but you strive to beat the conditions with the smallest possible group. What good is benchrest in the real world of shooting?
If you go out and buy a new whiz-bang magnum hunting rifle, do you take it to the range and shoot it standing to see what kind of accuracy the rifle is capable of? No, You put it on the bench to see what you have really bought. After this you know what the rifle is capable of, if it don't meet your expectations, you decide what you can do to make it into the rifle you think it should be. The BR crowd has already taken a lot of the work out of the process by giveing some insight into what makes a rifle accurate, pillar bedding, free floating the barrel, lapping the reciever/bolt lugs, trueing the bolt face, blue printing the action, from them, you can look at the target and have a good idea of whether you should increase the powder charge, decrease the powder charge, use a different bullet, lighter or heavier, boat tail or flat base.
Without the benchrest crowd, a rifle that would consistantly group in 2" would be a highly prized firearm.

Respect is the problem, no matter which method you employ in your effort to place your bullets in the target, if its enjoyable to you and safe for others, its good.

May 16, 2006, 09:51 AM
For me, as long as I am not acting in an unsafe manner or interfering with anyone else, I don't give a rat's bottom what anyone thinks about my shooting style.

I've always found that people who build themselves up by trying to tear everyone else down are really quite "insecure" at their core.

May 16, 2006, 09:52 AM
Benchrest/Bullseye shooting just doesn't make sense in my mind.

Neither do (IMHO):
Big 4WD vehicles that never go off road.
Motorcycles/cars that will do 140-150 mph +
Carbon frame racing bicycles w/all the clothing that goes with racing and only get ridden on weekends (for exercise) You want exercise, get an old single speed, steel frame Schwinn.
$15,000 Rolex watches, Perazzi (sp?) shotguns, etc.
500 S&W Magnums. :D
Full Auto
Women's shoes.

and the list is endless.

Maybe it's because of "Different Strokes for Different Folks"


May 16, 2006, 10:11 AM
Is it possible that there is some angle here that I am not seeing?

Think of it as transcendental meditation with a gun.

May 16, 2006, 10:19 AM
Why does a specific type of shooting have to make sense? Some people enjoy going out and trying to produce the smallest groups possible, others go out to plink around and just relax and shoot. Who's to say one is better/more useful than the other. There doesn't need to be a practical use; some of us are just enjoying a hobby. Sports don't have a practical use (for the most part), yet I enjoy them immensely. As long as you're having fun...that's all that matters.

like deadin said "different strokes for different folks"

Imagine how boring life would be if everyone only enjoyed doing the same thing.


May 16, 2006, 11:11 AM
It is generally a mistake to paint everyone who does some activity with the same brush.

That said, some activities attract certain personality types and there is a pronounced flavor to that group.

As far as BR shooting, expect the shooter:
1. To be well-off
That is an awful lot of $$$ for a piece of hobby equip that has no practical purpose off the bench. Self-made well-off folks are more likely to not be outright jerks to strangers, since a lot of those strangers may happen to also be potential customers. Of course, you will always have the status-seeking snob types who want to increase their status by lowering others'.

2. Focussed & singleminded
Dude wants to put tiny holes in the paper. To do this, he has to be anal retentive beyond belief. Anal type-As can be less than patient with distractions.

May 16, 2006, 11:24 AM
It is not just benchrest shooters.

It is hunters vs. target shooters, bowhunters vs. gunhunters, trap vs. skeet vs. sporting clays vs. duck hunters, Labs vs. Pointers, whatever.

I wish every gun club and range would have a copy of Dr. Suess' book on Sneetches, and make it required reading. That way, when a person runs into this kind of arrogant snobbery, you could just ask to see the star on their belly.


May 16, 2006, 11:55 AM
Why does a specific type of shooting have to make sense? There doesn't need to be a practical use; some of us are just enjoying a hobby. As long as you're having fun...that's all that matters.

Couldn't agree more! Unfortunately there are many who feel they must bash, insult or belittle a shooting discipline that do not consider proper or practical - or if they simply do not understand it. And some also feel they must do the same to the individuals who participate in that particular discipline or shooting style. A great many seem to get upset by others that are enjoying something that they do not approve of. :confused:

Since this is an old thread I'll mention again that one of the nicest shooters I ever met was a local competitive BR shooter. I simply pulled up to his driveway one day when I saw him shooting along with his wife. I had never met him prior to that but we had a mutual friend.

He let me shoot his wife's 6mm PPC - a real treat! Basically made we feel very welcome. This couple definitely did not fit the stereotype that many here are trying to paint.

May 16, 2006, 12:07 PM
I am going to back Old Time Hunter on his story and course of action.

Not everything you learn at a firing range has to be about firearms.:)

Some of the prejudices and narrowminded thinking can be unintentional. When I think gun, cartridge, and practice, I have brainwashed myself into thinking, "How does that help me get venison or a turkey?" Of course, with competiton shooters it would be "How does this help me beat old Fudmeyer" and with some it would be "Would this make a big splash with the boys when I pull it out of the case?"

I snagged a NIB Sport King last Friday to help me get over this fixation that all roads lead to killing game.

May 16, 2006, 12:38 PM
I bet if you took to actually getting to know them, instead of just drawing beliefs from perception, there is a possibility that they may not be as awful as you describe. I remember having the same feelings about clay shooters until I went clay shooting.

Remember that accuracy and group size is the sole point of theri shooting. They are simpy trying to judge others on their own standards. I believe you are doing the same.

May 16, 2006, 12:55 PM
In the early 1990s a good friend of mine was just getting into rifles hot and heavy when he noticed an older gentleman doing some benchrest shooting with a custom rifle sitting down smoking a cigarette. As I was standing next to him I watched the entire conversation.

Friend: "Excuse me, Sir. That's a beautiful rifle. What caliber is it?"

Benchrest Shooter: "6mm Benchrest."

Friend: "Oh really!?! I have heard that can be a very accurate caliber. Do you enjoy shooting it?"

Benchrest Shooter: "If I didn't enjoy it I wouldn't be shooting it."

We walked away in disgust.

I have avoided them every since.

May 16, 2006, 01:52 PM
Benchrest :barf:

Everyone knows Highpower is the King of rifle sports!



May 16, 2006, 01:54 PM
You should be avoiding him, not "them." Don't presume that an entire group of enthusiasts are jerks just because one of them is. I'm sure you'll miss out on a lot of great conversations by dubbing all BR shooters as jerks. To each his own...it's your choice.


Commissar Gribb
May 16, 2006, 02:00 PM
I remember once at the range (shooting my AR15 and Maadi AKM) some guy who was there near us was shooting an FAL and some other bolt rifles down the way.

One of my friends went over to see what he was shooting and he made some (not in a friendly joke way) about my "pea shooters".

I noticed the comments stopped after we started shooting my friend's mosin nagant. Still, I thought the elitism factor was pretty annoying.

May 16, 2006, 02:03 PM
Idk about these stereotypes. I don't get to the public range very often. I love long range shooting from the bench or a bi-pod. It makes me feel good when I can put holes in paper at long distances, and I love the challenge. I also love to shoot trap, hell no am I good at it, but it sure is fun. when I feel destructive I shoot my AK off hand, and thats alot of fun too.

but we all know that bench rest is king!!! :neener: HAHA just playin

to those who think they are better then the rest. the hell with ya.

May 16, 2006, 02:38 PM
I find that it boils down to status. It is most prevalent in Skeet and surprisingly machinegunners. I have a machinegun but I don't look down on those that do not. They have gotten very expensive recently and this has changed the dynamics of the group. Machinegun guys used to be guys that liked military firearms and shot and collected them. They liked to shoot full auto but also knew how to hit with them. In what seems to be now the norm, machinegunners are people that buy them because they are expensive. They seem to know less and less about the guns they buy and usually do not even have a target in which they are aiming. It is more or less a "look at me" type of mentality. I know many machinegunners that once they got a machinegun or two, make fun of those that shoot semi-auto AR15s or AKs. These people love to laugh at guys at the range trying to "bumpfire" their guns when these same people usually were doing the very same thing not too long ago. If you can hit what you are aiming at, that is what counts. I like too many types of shooting.

I once shot next to a benchrester that was pretty snobby. I was shooting old mausers at the time as I like them as well as my target rifles. The guy talked down to everbody but we hadn't spoken much. He was telling people to stop shooting as he needed silence for his shot, telling guys they needed to get real rifles, etc.. I saw one of his ammo boxes with reloads and as I have really good eyes I could real the small writing on the little sticker in the box top. It said so and so grains of 4064 powder. I also noticed his other box on another rifle had Varget written in it for another load. He shot his shot. I took a sniff as if I was trying to smell something. He shot again. I took another sniff. As he was single loading another round, I looked over and said "4064?". They guy's jaw dropped as he said, "yeah". Later when he got out the other rifle, I did the same with the Varget load. The guy was amazed. Later he came over and asked me how I could tell. I just looked at him, smirked and told him "You have a lot to learn about shooting, maybe if I wasn't just some idiot shooting some old war rifles, you'd listen." I then opened up another gun case and pulled out my target rifle. He looked at me as if I had taken off a disguise. I laughed at him and turned away. I'd like to think they guy got the hint.

If you really want to see a skeet shooter get pissed, shoot skeet with a submachinegun and bust a clay. They hate that, especially when they ask how much your gun cost and it is more than most nice skeet guns.

I only treat others this way when they look down on others. If you are a nice guy, I'm usually more than willing to let you try my guns even. I have had at least 3000 rounds through my subgun alone from guys that were asking about it.

May 16, 2006, 03:40 PM
The last benchrest shooter I met was real nice too.

Thursday before last my father and I headed to the range and I met a 1000-yard benchrest shooter. He had two of the nicest looking, well made custom guns I've ever seen - a 90+ pound rifle and a new 60+ pound rifle. He had found he couldn't easily lift the 90-pounder when his grandson wasn't available to travel from state to state with him, so he bought a new gun, a Ridenhour .300 Weatherby that weighs about 30 pounds less. IIRC it's serial number 009 and it's a real work of art. He thinks the gun might show up in Precision Shooting one of these days and he showed me his grandson's picture in a recent copy of PS. The young man can certainly shoot.

I just don't know where all the nasty benchresters are. Maybe of some of you folks just rub people the wrong way. ;)


May 16, 2006, 04:01 PM
I haven't personally seen much attitude by sport choice, but I hear it talked about a LOT. (At least at the SGVGC in Duarte.)

I think I'd shoot MYSELF before shooting at that place again. And I grew up shooting there. Never seen such jerks in my life. Go somewhere else, for your own good!:)

Funny thing is, they're fighting to keep their range. But they seem totally unaware of how they're perceived by shooters, not just the moonbats on City Council.

Trap vs. Skeet has been largely overtaken by events, those events being 5-Stand and Sporting Clays.

There's "bench rest shooters" and there are Benchrest shooters. People who sit all day every Saturday and shoot some average bolt-action rifle on the bench (e.g. a lot of the old jerks at SGVGC), and have nothing to do but bitch about some kid's .22 casings hitting their table now and then, are just losers. Sorry. They are grumpy because they know that they can't shoot in any practical way. Benchrest competitors, on the other hand, tend to be friendly and welcoming (just like a lot of clay shooters are).

Black Powder? I've never seen any conflict, and I've shot my .44 Remington revolver at a small indoor range a few times. Smokes up the place.:)

May 16, 2006, 05:45 PM
In their defense, Benchrest shooters have pioneered just about every innovation we have for super accurate rifles. All of the accurizing features on a modern military sniper rifle, varmint rifle, or hunting rifle have their roots in benchrest shooting.

The benchrest shooters that I've encountered seem to be generous, almost to a fault, eager to talk about their sport/gear/rifles, and easygoing when they're not on the firing line. On the range, shooting a sub 1/4 MOA group requires extreme concentration, so they get a little testy when they are interrupted. The individual in the original post acted like a jerk. Maybe he reacted to having his concentration broken, maybe he is just a jerk. If it's the latter, he'd be a jerk whether he was shooting benchrest or shooting pool.

May 16, 2006, 06:11 PM
Anthony, I have to agree with ebd10.

It's like when I'm reading a book and somebody ask's me what I'm reading. Can't you tell that I'm busy?

I'm a little testy when I'm interupted.

May 17, 2006, 12:55 AM
i dont do the competion, but i do love the benchrest discipline. it is a great challenge, to dope the wind, the temps, tryign to look through tehscope, and actually put your bullets exacltly where you say they are going to go. Also it is maddening, when you go out one day, and can paint smiley faces on a target, and the next day you can barely get a recognizeable group. thats with the same gun/ammo. so you gotta go back to the drawing board, and recheck all your steps. either you figure it out. or you dont and go home, determined to get it right next week. I love the challenge.

Old Time Hunter
May 17, 2006, 09:37 AM
xring44, Glad I received the intended reaction, thanks.

"As for your encounter with the BR shooter, if you come across with him as you did me, I can understand his behavior."

Of course, it would have been much better for me to defer to the anal wishes of my range neighbor and also recognize his much superior social standing.

When we built this range 30+ years ago, we very rarely had any issues pertaining to personalities and such. 99% of us were rural, primarily hunters, and gun affectionadoes with a common thread. Over the years our area slowly has become a haven for ex-urban, mainly upper class professionals and we have generally welcomed them into our club. Recently, within the last 10-12 years, this group has been instrumental in attempting to add exclustivity to the club making it almost unattainable for the common person. Fortunately, being one of the original found fathers, I have lifetime membership. I will not stand by, when some uppity "johnny come lately" tells me that I do not belong at "his" club. Especially when I was part of the original group that built it!

May 17, 2006, 10:16 AM
So it sound like part of the problem may be that it isn't "his" club but rather "your" club. :scrutiny:


May 17, 2006, 11:41 AM
Two words:

Lee vs Dillon

It costs more, therefore it, and the owner (of the Dillon) MUST be better looking, have a prettier wife/girlfriend, have two smart, wonderful children and be the pillar of the community.

You 'Lee owners' should stand in the soup line and be glad you get that. :banghead:

Don't get me started on NFA vs the world....

May 17, 2006, 11:48 AM
Sounds to me that your problem solely lies with this fella that acted so rudely in your direction...although I must say, I don't think you did much good by threatening him to "keep quite or else." I would hope a founding member of the club would explain to this "johnny come lately" exactly whom he is talking to and recommend he not do it again.

Better to have him not say anything to you out of respect, rather than fear.

Either way...you found yourself a jerk...doesn't mean all BR shooters are like that. If it does seem to be that most BR shooters act like that at your club, then maybe it's time for a meeting with the "higher-ups" of the club concerning the attitude of a few members. A simple re-iteration of the range rules with a note saying something to the effect of "Remember to be courteous to your fellow members/shooters."

Obviously, better wording could be had; but that's what I came up with while at work. I just think things can be solved in a more civil manner than shooting the legs out of someone's target stand.


May 17, 2006, 05:38 PM
Old Time Hunter, Our gun club is in growing pains even now, we have Doctors, Lawyers, CEOs, and a lot of red necks like myself, we just aquired an additional 80 acres adjoining the 40 acres our range is located on. Being retired, I have spent countless hours and no little sum of money to "enhance"
our range, so I have a vested interest in the range that I am rightly proud of,

As in any faternity, club, gathering, we have some better than thou personalitys. That is a fact of life, I go and enjoy myself in spite of those who would really like to look down their noses at anyone with less than they have. Fortunately, I have some knowledge that they never had the chance to aquire, they were too busy makeing their fortune to learn much about rifles etc. The thing is, its not one group that has all the A Holes, every group has their own.

Sometimes its difficult to avoid a verbal conflict, but normally its best. If the "beast" displays that attitude very often, his membership will not be renewed, problem solved.

May 17, 2006, 06:11 PM
Anecdotes of a single run-in with an individual is hardly an indictment of an entire sport.

I've never been to a Benchrest match or known any Benchrest shooters in real life, but I find it exceedingly hard to believe that this one particular discipline is home to a larger number of jerks than any other.

And for what it's worth, across all of the different competitive disciplines that I've given a whirl; Bullseye, ISSF Standard Pistol, IDPA, IPSC, 3 Gun, and High Power, the one constant has been that the people competing in them are kind and generous nearly to a fault.

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